Re: [Tagging] Routing in Liège (consulting Michelin)

2016-09-21 Thread joost schouppe 
It wouldn't be hard to prove if this conversation is in the public domain.

In the original question, the data use looks much more direct than using it
as a source for directed surveying. And it does look like even this is
expressly forbidden by the user terms of the mentioned website.
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Re: [Tagging] Routing in Liège (consulting Michelin)

2016-09-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> Il giorno 21 set 2016, alle ore 12:46, joost schouppe 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> Which I think is correct, as Martin's answer also explains.


well, although the collection of facts can be protected against copying, 
looking up those facts in a protected source and compare them with osm to base 
your surveys upon is not a problem. You are neither copying nor combining osm 
and this other protected source.

Besides this, even if it were contractually forbidden, it seems impossible to 
prove anything.

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Re: [Tagging] Routing in Liège (consulting Michelin)

2016-09-21 Thread joost schouppe 
Dave, well, as I implied, no, I'm not sure.

Janko started a thread in legal-talk where you can expect more
knowledgeable answers. Simon Poole answered, basically, "it depends". Which
I think is correct, as Martin's answer also explains.

Andre Angels, your comment was really uncalled for.

2016-09-21 12:05 GMT+02:00 Dave F :

>
> On 21/09/2016 07:51, joost schouppe wrote:
>
>>
>> Using copyrighted material to spot errors in OSM is still copyright
>> violation (well, a specialist in copyright should confirm that).
>>
>
> Hmm... Are you sure? I (& I'm sure others as well) use UK OS maps to spot
> features missing from OSM & then use those maps to navigate to them so they
> can be surveyed. Do you consider that a violation?
>
> Dave F.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Routing in Liège (consulting Michelin)

2016-09-21 Thread Dave F 


On 21/09/2016 07:51, joost schouppe wrote:


Using copyrighted material to spot errors in OSM is still copyright 
violation (well, a specialist in copyright should confirm that).


Hmm... Are you sure? I (& I'm sure others as well) use UK OS maps to 
spot features missing from OSM & then use those maps to navigate to them 
so they can be surveyed. Do you consider that a violation?


Dave F.

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Re: [Tagging] Routing in Liège (consulting Michelin)

2016-09-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2016-09-21 11:30 GMT+02:00 Andre Engels :

> That's great nonsense. YOU CANNOT COPYRIGHT FACTS ONLY THE
> PRESENTATION OF THOSE FACTS
>


in Europe, databases (and a map can be considered database) are protected
if it took significant work to produce them, even if they are just
compilations of facts. Your statement is referring to the situation in the
US. Still, you can protect your own collection of facts also in the US by
applying contractual limitations along with the distributed content.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Routing in Liège (consulting Michelin)

2016-09-21 Thread Andre Engels 
On Wed, Sep 21, 2016 at 8:51 AM, joost schouppe
 wrote:

> Using copyrighted material to spot errors in OSM is still copyright
> violation (well, a specialist in copyright should confirm that).

That's great nonsense. YOU CANNOT COPYRIGHT FACTS ONLY THE
PRESENTATION OF THOSE FACTS

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Re: [Tagging] Routing in Liège (consulting Michelin)

2016-09-21 Thread joost schouppe 
André,

This isn't about you - this is about project integrity. One lawsuit for
copyright infringement could be enough to kill the project. Or we could get
our data users into serious problems. Whether or not you are an excellent
mapper is not the question. It is just not something we can take chances
with.

When you ask if you should tag copyrighted material as a source, I think we
can safely assume that you're talking about using that material as a
source. Which is never OK.

I find it ironical that you are shocked by a warning about how serious this
is, and in the same message refer to the DWG as vandals. Of course they
break things, but that's only because they're too busy saving us from
larger problems than a few broken relations. But how can you be so
sensitive when it comes to you and so insensitive when it comes to others?

Using copyrighted material to spot errors in OSM is still copyright
violation (well, a specialist in copyright should confirm that). If I
understand correctly what you are trying to do, then you don't even need to
do that. There are tools around which check for things like 'short section
of lower  classification within a larger section of higher classification'.


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Re: [Tagging] Routing in Liège (consulting Michelin)

2016-09-20 Thread André Pirard 
On 2016-09-17 20:46, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> André Pirard wrote:
>> Last point is what source:???=Michelin ??? to use to prevent a 
>> StijnRR or like arbitrarily destructing well thought out tagging 
>> without notifying the author. I suggest
>> source:highway=https://viamichelin.be/web/Cartes-plans 2016 2016.
> No, you must not copy from copyrighted maps, which includes Michelin's.
>
> Please confirm that you have not added, and are not going to add, any data
> (including classification judgements) from Michelin maps, otherwise I guess
> we'll have to ask the Data Working Group to suspend your OSM account and
> revert your edits.
>
> Richard
Of course not, I did not use that Michelin map as a source and I won't.
It would be stupid because it's coarse compared to other allowed sources.
And everything of it and much more is in OSM already.
Even a road classification does not interestingly exist in it (1).
This Subject: and suggested source= are inappropriate and misleading.

The only thing I did is to notice that Michelin runs the N3 in red from
Ans to La Dérivation, compare it to my turbopass map, discover that OSM
has a gap in this primary and post the URLs of a few streets containing
ref=N3 and highway=secondary.  You have read that, haven't you, I posted
their URLs in this thread.
Now if I hope that you won't say that this is copying from Michelin and
that you would send to prison someone who would correct those mistakes
and that you would put the mistakes back in OSM.

I have been *extremely* shocked by what you said after my attempt to help.

Beside mapping the boundaries of South Belgium and other major works, I
have done excellent mapping, I very often correct a huge number of
houses and roads, almost all, misplaced by 3-5-+ meters, I help mappers,
I even help JOSM and others to improve their software for a better OSM.
Revert my edits? 
Remove the Walloon borders?  Remove the other many things? Remove my
humanitarian tagging?  Put houses and roads back to the wrong place?  etc...
Very rarely a word of thanks, except Marc in this thread, close friends,
some developers and the humanitarians.
Always reproaches and destruction.
Even the DWG vandals messed up the marvelous job of the boundaries of
Wallonia.

That total lack of consideration for what I'm doing made me decide to
stop contributing to OSM.

André.


(1) On that map, Michelin unhelpfully draws the equivalents of both
OSM's secondary and tertiary in yellow.
Tertiary can't be distinguished from secondary.
The only thing that can be done with it is to build a route to compare
with an OSM and so to have hints to modify the  OSM route.
This said, I tried on Michelin the route Beaufays-Oupeye that I know well.
Definitely, their route #2 27 km via E25 is much better than their
recommended #1 26 km via E40.
And within #2, Bd de Douai -> Poincaré is better than quai des Ardennes,
it is even the signposted route!
So, Michelin is not even always a good adviser!

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