Re: [Tagging] Conditional destinations (hgv, bicycle, maxweight…)

[Jan Michel]

It started as my personal summary of tags, but in the meantime it looks 
like it got a rather comprehensive summary of current tagging practice.


I don't really know where to start cleaning up the Wiki, because this 
also means to remove some of the existing pages and replace them.


I'm happy if my work somehow helps to improve the main wiki pages, but I 
think this is not something one person alone should do.


On 02.08.20 10:53, David Marchal via Tagging wrote:

Jan,
I see you have done much work on this topic on your page 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Mueschel/DestinationTagging); 
why didn't you include these informations on the general Wiki pages 
instead of your user pages?



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Re: [Tagging] Conditional destinations (hgv, bicycle, maxweight…)

[David Marchal via Tagging]

Jan,

I see you have done much work on this topic on your page 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Mueschel/DestinationTagging); why 
didn't you include these informations on the general Wiki pages instead of your 
user pages?

Regards.
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‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
Le samedi 1 août 2020 17:03, David Marchal  a écrit :

> To Jan Michel (I did not have your mail, as I unsubscribed of the list mails 
> to avoid cluttering my mailbox): the goal of my request is not to assist 
> routing software in finding a route, but to help navigation software to 
> display the destination signs as they are on the ground. If a destination is 
> restricted to some vehicles, for instance the ones below 12 tons, the 
> navigation software should have access to the restriction, to allow it to 
> display the restriction on the screen, or to not display the destination if 
> the routed vehicle is not concerned, i.e. if the routed vehicle is over 12 
> tons.
>
> I agree with the fee/toll part, I had the wrong tag in mind.
>
> Concerning weight, french tonnage signs indeed concern weight rating, not 
> actual weight, but, as maxweight is often used for such signs, I kept it for 
> my question.
>
> Concerning the documentation, I agree it is not well structured and could 
> largely be improved. In my case, the proposal is more a way to formalise the 
> reasoning and interpretation for the suggested tagging scheme. I am not 
> willing to publish a brand new tagging scheme as if I was documenting 
> something already well established. That would be confusing: it is something 
> new, currently used nowhere, and I feel the proposal process is there for 
> that: to allow suggestions to be discussed and approved, thus limiting 
> tagging and wiki disorganization.
>
> Regards.
> --
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>
> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> Le vendredi 31 juillet 2020 15:53, David Marchal  
> a écrit :
>
>> Hello, there.
>>
>> I'm wondering, there are destination signs which only apply to some kind of 
>> vehicles: for HGV, for bicycles, for pedestrians, for vehicles below 12t… 
>> How would I tag such destinations? The simple way would be to use, 
>> respectively, destination:hgv=*, destination:bicycle=*, destination:foot=*, 
>> destination:conditional="* @ weight<12". Am I right to assume these?
>>
>> If so, some examples:
>>
>> - in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/mo0AKf9masIEfpJtySH8fw), 
>> the road ahead would be tagged (regardless of direction), 
>> destination="Darney;Plombières;Bains-les-B.;Gare S.N.C.F.;Gare" and 
>> destination:hgv="Vesoul;Mulhouse;Darney;Plombières;Bains-les-B.;Gare 
>> S.N.C.F.;Gare"
>> - in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Oz3Om7pGbk7LA5wSmYLRew), 
>> the link would be tagged 
>> destination:fee="Milan;Turin;Aoste;Courmayeur;Tunnel du Mᵗ Blanc"
>> - in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/pNJJG6ST4njXchZDQZ3XPw), 
>> the road exiting the turnaround would be tagged 
>> destination="Épinal;Bruyères;Remiremont;Quartiers sud;Zones industrielles" 
>> and 
>> destination:conditional="(Saint-Dié;Raon-l’Étape;Épinal;Bruyères;Remiremont;Quartiers
>>  sud;Zones industrielles) @ weight>3.5 AND hgv"
>> - in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/71zRlujmD69aPg35BFO1r6), 
>> the road exiting the turnaround would be tagged destination="La Voivre", 
>> destination:bicycle="La Voivre;Sᵗ Dié" and destination:ref="C 3"
>>
>> Is that correct? Can I edit the Wiki destination tag page to give these 
>> informations, or maybe should I submit a RFC to formalize this?
>>
>> Awaiting your answers,
>>
>> Regards.
>> --
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Re: [Tagging] Conditional destinations (hgv, bicycle, maxweight…)

[David Marchal via Tagging]

To Jan Michel (I did not have your mail, as I unsubscribed of the list mails to 
avoid cluttering my mailbox): the goal of my request is not to assist routing 
software in finding a route, but to help navigation software to display the 
destination signs as they are on the ground. If a destination is restricted to 
some vehicles, for instance the ones below 12 tons, the navigation software 
should have access to the restriction, to allow it to display the restriction 
on the screen, or to not display the destination if the routed vehicle is not 
concerned, i.e. if the routed vehicle is over 12 tons.

I agree with the fee/toll part, I had the wrong tag in mind.

Concerning weight, french tonnage signs indeed concern weight rating, not 
actual weight, but, as maxweight is often used for such signs, I kept it for my 
question.

Concerning the documentation, I agree it is not well structured and could 
largely be improved. In my case, the proposal is more a way to formalise the 
reasoning and interpretation for the suggested tagging scheme. I am not willing 
to publish a brand new tagging scheme as if I was documenting something already 
well established. That would be confusing: it is something new, currently used 
nowhere, and I feel the proposal process is there for that: to allow 
suggestions to be discussed and approved, thus limiting tagging and wiki 
disorganization.

Regards.
--
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‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
Le vendredi 31 juillet 2020 15:53, David Marchal  a 
écrit :

> Hello, there.
>
> I'm wondering, there are destination signs which only apply to some kind of 
> vehicles: for HGV, for bicycles, for pedestrians, for vehicles below 12t… How 
> would I tag such destinations? The simple way would be to use, respectively, 
> destination:hgv=*, destination:bicycle=*, destination:foot=*, 
> destination:conditional="* @ weight<12". Am I right to assume these?
>
> If so, some examples:
>
> - in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/mo0AKf9masIEfpJtySH8fw), 
> the road ahead would be tagged (regardless of direction), 
> destination="Darney;Plombières;Bains-les-B.;Gare S.N.C.F.;Gare" and 
> destination:hgv="Vesoul;Mulhouse;Darney;Plombières;Bains-les-B.;Gare 
> S.N.C.F.;Gare"
> - in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Oz3Om7pGbk7LA5wSmYLRew), 
> the link would be tagged destination:fee="Milan;Turin;Aoste;Courmayeur;Tunnel 
> du Mᵗ Blanc"
> - in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/pNJJG6ST4njXchZDQZ3XPw), 
> the road exiting the turnaround would be tagged 
> destination="Épinal;Bruyères;Remiremont;Quartiers sud;Zones industrielles" 
> and 
> destination:conditional="(Saint-Dié;Raon-l’Étape;Épinal;Bruyères;Remiremont;Quartiers
>  sud;Zones industrielles) @ weight>3.5 AND hgv"
> - in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/71zRlujmD69aPg35BFO1r6), 
> the road exiting the turnaround would be tagged destination="La Voivre", 
> destination:bicycle="La Voivre;Sᵗ Dié" and destination:ref="C 3"
>
> Is that correct? Can I edit the Wiki destination tag page to give these 
> informations, or maybe should I submit a RFC to formalize this?
>
> Awaiting your answers,
>
> Regards.
> --
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Re: [Tagging] Conditional destinations (hgv, bicycle, maxweight…)

[Jan Michel]

Hi,

On 01.08.20 15:48, David Marchal via Tagging wrote:
Hm, it seems a smart way to manage such cases; I could add the 
restrictions on the relation, like hazmat:water=no or maxweight=12. I 
assume that, in such cases, I must create a destination_sign relation 
for unrestricted destinations, and one for each destination restriction 
(if there are several restrictions, one relation for each restriction).


Is it widestream to have several destinations in one single relation, or 
is it necessary to add a relation per destination? Having one relation 
per destination would be a pain in the ass.


I'd say "yes" from my personal experience, but that might be biased. I'm 
inclined to use the destination* tags on a relation in the same way as 
those on ways.


What about application support? Are destination_sign relations widely 
supported, or are they mostly ignored by software like Osmand?


I'm not aware of any users despite of hiking maps (i.e. waymarkedtrails.org)

I would like to add this possibility on the Wiki; do you think it would 
be necessary to fill a proposal, or could I just add it, as it is a 
simple, self-explaining, combination of preexisting tags?


Using a vehicle type (bicycle, foot) is already used several thousand 
times on the relations and even more often on the destination signs 
themselves. So I don't see a problem to just use e.g. hgv as well.

We should add a statement in the Wiki documentation.

On the other hand, I wouldn't use access tags like maxweight without a 
detailed discussion.

(As always, that's just my personal opinion)

Jan


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Re: [Tagging] Conditional destinations (hgv, bicycle, maxweight…)

[David Marchal via Tagging]

Hm, it seems a smart way to manage such cases; I could add the restrictions on 
the relation, like hazmat:water=no or maxweight=12. I assume that, in such 
cases, I must create a destination_sign relation for unrestricted destinations, 
and one for each destination restriction (if there are several restrictions, 
one relation for each restriction).

Is it widestream to have several destinations in one single relation, or is it 
necessary to add a relation per destination? Having one relation per 
destination would be a pain in the ass.

What about application support? Are destination_sign relations widely 
supported, or are they mostly ignored by software like Osmand?

I would like to add this possibility on the Wiki; do you think it would be 
necessary to fill a proposal, or could I just add it, as it is a simple, 
self-explaining, combination of preexisting tags?

Awaiting your answers,

Regards.
--
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‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
Le samedi 1 août 2020 11:12, Andrew Harvey  a écrit :

> While you're talking about the destination tag, I think when using a 
> destination_sign relation it's best to apply the mode as eg. 
> bicycle=designated, eg 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/11345354#map=18/-33.82573/151.21308 
> for https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/VIq-OPTiw0BVI7gqdLR-iA
>
> On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 23:55, David Marchal via Tagging 
>  wrote:
>
>> Hello, there.
>>
>> I'm wondering, there are destination signs which only apply to some kind of 
>> vehicles: for HGV, for bicycles, for pedestrians, for vehicles below 12t… 
>> How would I tag such destinations? The simple way would be to use, 
>> respectively, destination:hgv=*, destination:bicycle=*, destination:foot=*, 
>> destination:conditional="* @ weight<12". Am I right to assume these?
>>
>> If so, some examples:
>>
>> - in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/mo0AKf9masIEfpJtySH8fw), 
>> the road ahead would be tagged (regardless of direction), 
>> destination="Darney;Plombières;Bains-les-B.;Gare S.N.C.F.;Gare" and 
>> destination:hgv="Vesoul;Mulhouse;Darney;Plombières;Bains-les-B.;Gare 
>> S.N.C.F.;Gare"
>> - in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Oz3Om7pGbk7LA5wSmYLRew), 
>> the link would be tagged 
>> destination:fee="Milan;Turin;Aoste;Courmayeur;Tunnel du Mᵗ Blanc"
>> - in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/pNJJG6ST4njXchZDQZ3XPw), 
>> the road exiting the turnaround would be tagged 
>> destination="Épinal;Bruyères;Remiremont;Quartiers sud;Zones industrielles" 
>> and 
>> destination:conditional="(Saint-Dié;Raon-l’Étape;Épinal;Bruyères;Remiremont;Quartiers
>>  sud;Zones industrielles) @ weight>3.5 AND hgv"
>> - in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/71zRlujmD69aPg35BFO1r6), 
>> the road exiting the turnaround would be tagged destination="La Voivre", 
>> destination:bicycle="La Voivre;Sᵗ Dié" and destination:ref="C 3"
>>
>> Is that correct? Can I edit the Wiki destination tag page to give these 
>> informations, or maybe should I submit a RFC to formalize this?
>>
>> Awaiting your answers,
>>
>> Regards.
>> --
>> Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Conditional destinations (hgv, bicycle, maxweight…)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 1. Aug 2020, at 11:28, Jan Michel  wrote:
> 
> The access tag is 'maxweightrating' like 'maxweight' or 'maxheight'. In the 
> value of conditional tags there is no 'max' because there we refer to actual 
> values and not limits. We use 'weight', 'height' and hence also 
> 'weightrating' there.


the difference is that weight and height are actual weights and heights, while 
the rating is for a maxweight, hence I believe it should be “maxweightrating” 
when it’s about the actual maxweightrating.

Cheers Martin 



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Re: [Tagging] Conditional destinations (hgv, bicycle, maxweight…)

[Jan Michel]

On 31.07.20 21:07, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

On 31. Jul 2020, at 18:01, Jan Michel  wrote:

I'm not familiar with French rules, but is it the actual weight or the allowed 
total weight of the vehicle that matters? If it's the latter, you can use 
'weightrating' instead of 'weight'.

shouldn’t that be „maxweightrating“?



The access tag is 'maxweightrating' like 'maxweight' or 'maxheight'. In 
the value of conditional tags there is no 'max' because there we refer 
to actual values and not limits. We use 'weight', 'height' and hence 
also 'weightrating' there.



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Re: [Tagging] Conditional destinations (hgv, bicycle, maxweight…)

[Andrew Harvey]

While you're talking about the destination tag, I think when using a
destination_sign relation it's best to apply the mode as eg.
bicycle=designated, eg
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/11345354#map=18/-33.82573/151.21308
 for https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/VIq-OPTiw0BVI7gqdLR-iA

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 at 23:55, David Marchal via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hello, there.
>
> I'm wondering, there are destination signs which only apply to some kind
> of vehicles: for HGV, for bicycles, for pedestrians, for vehicles below
> 12t… How would I tag such destinations? The simple way would be to use,
> respectively, destination:hgv=*, destination:bicycle=*, destination:foot=*,
> destination:conditional="* @ weight<12". Am I right to assume these?
>
> If so, some examples:
>
>- in this example (
>https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/mo0AKf9masIEfpJtySH8fw), the road
>ahead would be tagged (regardless of direction),
>destination="Darney;Plombières;Bains-les-B.;Gare S.N.C.F.;Gare" and
>destination:hgv="Vesoul;Mulhouse;Darney;Plombières;Bains-les-B.;Gare
>S.N.C.F.;Gare"
>- in this example (
>https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Oz3Om7pGbk7LA5wSmYLRew), the link
>would be tagged destination:fee="Milan;Turin;Aoste;Courmayeur;Tunnel du Mᵗ
>Blanc"
>- in this example (
>https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/pNJJG6ST4njXchZDQZ3XPw), the road
>exiting the turnaround would be tagged
>destination="Épinal;Bruyères;Remiremont;Quartiers sud;Zones industrielles"
>and
>
> destination:conditional="(Saint-Dié;Raon-l’Étape;Épinal;Bruyères;Remiremont;Quartiers
>sud;Zones industrielles) @ weight>3.5 AND hgv"
>- in this example (
>https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/71zRlujmD69aPg35BFO1r6), the road
>exiting the turnaround would be tagged destination="La Voivre",
>destination:bicycle="La Voivre;Sᵗ Dié" and destination:ref="C 3"
>
> Is that correct? Can I edit the Wiki destination tag page to give these
> informations, or maybe should I submit a RFC to formalize this?
>
> Awaiting your answers,
>
> Regards.
> --
> Sent with ProtonMail  Secure Email.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Conditional destinations (hgv, bicycle, maxweight…)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 31. Jul 2020, at 18:01, Jan Michel  wrote:
> 
> I'm not familiar with French rules, but is it the actual weight or the 
> allowed total weight of the vehicle that matters? If it's the latter, you can 
> use 'weightrating' instead of 'weight'.


shouldn’t that be „maxweightrating“? 

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Conditional destinations (hgv, bicycle, maxweight…)

[Jan Michel]

Hi David,

On 31.07.20 15:53, David Marchal via Tagging wrote:

Hello, there.

I'm wondering, there are destination signs which only apply to some kind 
of vehicles: for HGV, for bicycles, for pedestrians, for vehicles below 
12t… How would I tag such destinations? The simple way would be to use, 
respectively, destination:hgv=*, destination:bicycle=*, 
destination:foot=*, destination:conditional="* @ weight<12". Am I right 
to assume these?


Yes, I agree. 'destination:bicycle' is already used "a bit".
I would try to stay with the simple vehicle types and use conditionals 
as rarely as possible.
That's actually what I also mentioned in my 'destination' summary some 
years ago:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Mueschel/DestinationTagging#:forward.2C_:backward_and_:lanes

But, one word of caution: I think we shouldn't add too much detail here. 
For actual routing we don't need this information as it should use 
actual access rules - which are in most cases present somewhere along 
the route. The only actual reason to have this in the database (IMHO) is 
to have a proper display of destination signs.




If so, some examples:
[...]
Is that correct? 


They all seem correct to me. One exception is 'destination:fee' for the 
'paege' addition. We use the tag 'toll' on roads, so the destination-tag
should use this as well. On the other hand, we could also tag it as 
destination:symbol = paege. This seems easier to extent to other toll

systems like the Austrian or Swiss "Vignette" and there respective symbols.

I'm not familiar with French rules, but is it the actual weight or the 
allowed total weight of the vehicle that matters? If it's the latter, 
you can use 'weightrating' instead of 'weight'.


Can I edit the Wiki destination tag page to give these 
informations, or maybe should I submit a RFC to formalize this?


The whole 'destination' eco-system of tags was established without 
voting on anything. What we currently lack most is a proper documentation.
But, the tags you propose here are just what follows naturally from 
existing tagging schemes - e.g. transportation types can be added after 
a key to restrict it to a certain vehicle type. In so far I don't see 
the need for a dedicated proposal here.



Jan


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Re: [Tagging] Conditional destinations (hgv, bicycle, maxweight…)

[David Marchal via Tagging]

No, such restrictions are typically not applied directly on the road indicated 
by the sign; they are present on other road segments along the indicated route, 
or may not be present at all, because the road network manager wants to 
encourage some kinds of vehicles to use a specific route, without explicitly 
forbidding them on the other roads.

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‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
Le vendredi 31 juillet 2020 15:59, Paul Johnson  a écrit :

> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 8:53 AM David Marchal via Tagging 
>  wrote:
>
>> Hello, there.
>>
>> I'm wondering, there are destination signs which only apply to some kind of 
>> vehicles: for HGV, for bicycles, for pedestrians, for vehicles below 12t… 
>> How would I tag such destinations? The simple way would be to use, 
>> respectively, destination:hgv=*, destination:bicycle=*, destination:foot=*, 
>> destination:conditional="* @ weight<12". Am I right to assume these?
>
> access=destination, bicycle=destination, foot=destination, 
> access:conditional=destination @ weight<12___
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Re: [Tagging] Conditional destinations (hgv, bicycle, maxweight…)

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 8:53 AM David Marchal via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Hello, there.
>
> I'm wondering, there are destination signs which only apply to some kind
> of vehicles: for HGV, for bicycles, for pedestrians, for vehicles below
> 12t… How would I tag such destinations? The simple way would be to use,
> respectively, destination:hgv=*, destination:bicycle=*, destination:foot=*,
> destination:conditional="* @ weight<12". Am I right to assume these?
>

access=destination, bicycle=destination, foot=destination,
access:conditional=destination @ weight<12
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[Tagging] Conditional destinations (hgv, bicycle, maxweight…)

[David Marchal via Tagging]

Hello, there.

I'm wondering, there are destination signs which only apply to some kind of 
vehicles: for HGV, for bicycles, for pedestrians, for vehicles below 12t… How 
would I tag such destinations? The simple way would be to use, respectively, 
destination:hgv=*, destination:bicycle=*, destination:foot=*, 
destination:conditional="* @ weight<12". Am I right to assume these?

If so, some examples:

- in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/mo0AKf9masIEfpJtySH8fw), 
the road ahead would be tagged (regardless of direction), 
destination="Darney;Plombières;Bains-les-B.;Gare S.N.C.F.;Gare" and 
destination:hgv="Vesoul;Mulhouse;Darney;Plombières;Bains-les-B.;Gare 
S.N.C.F.;Gare"
- in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Oz3Om7pGbk7LA5wSmYLRew), 
the link would be tagged destination:fee="Milan;Turin;Aoste;Courmayeur;Tunnel 
du Mᵗ Blanc"
- in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/pNJJG6ST4njXchZDQZ3XPw), 
the road exiting the turnaround would be tagged 
destination="Épinal;Bruyères;Remiremont;Quartiers sud;Zones industrielles" and 
destination:conditional="(Saint-Dié;Raon-l’Étape;Épinal;Bruyères;Remiremont;Quartiers
 sud;Zones industrielles) @ weight>3.5 AND hgv"
- in this example (https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/71zRlujmD69aPg35BFO1r6), 
the road exiting the turnaround would be tagged destination="La Voivre", 
destination:bicycle="La Voivre;Sᵗ Dié" and destination:ref="C 3"

Is that correct? Can I edit the Wiki destination tag page to give these 
informations, or maybe should I submit a RFC to formalize this?

Awaiting your answers,

Regards.
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