Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
> >1. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant > (Markus Peloso) > >>>> Markus, it seems to me that the definition is partially related to context, but I am definitely not an authority and defer to those with experience. Describing a café as having drinking_water=yes seem a bit strange as all cafés and bars have running water (at least in Europe). free_water has a bit of a commercial feel. I am going to send out a RFC later today. Please add all concerns to the debate as arriving at the most optimal and appropriate tags is very important. We plan to get individual cafes as well as chains like Starbucks, Au bon pain, etc. to start offering "free water" for bottle refills. Some chains have already started doing this in the UK. Best regards, Stuart > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 21:44:50 + > From: Markus Peloso > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > restaurant > Message-ID: > < > pr3p189mb09543497048d9a7d3a254ec3eb...@pr3p189mb0954.eurp189.prod.outlook.com > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hello Stuart > > Can you describe the difference between free_water and drinking_water > better? Based on the wiki drinking_water means free potable water. > > Best regards, > Markus > Von: European Water Project<mailto:europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. Januar 2020 22:09 > An: tagging@openstreetmap.org<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> > Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant > > 5. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant > (Florimond Berthoux) > >>>> Hello Florimond, While I don't necessarily feel the solution you > propose is preferable, I do share your love of KISS though. > > I have tried to fairly incorporate the main feedback from the tagging > maillist discussion. > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Free_Water > > Why do you think your proposal is preferred to the one outlined in the > draft proposal ? > free_water = > free_water:container = > > Best regards, > > Stuart > > > - > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 20:25:53 +0100 > From: Florimond Berthoux florimond.berth...@gmail.com>> > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>> > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > restaurant > Message-ID: > nj7xbjp5htdah1zw9gfxhwh8c0jd...@mail.gmail.com nj7xbjp5htdah1zw9gfxhwh8c0jd...@mail.gmail.com>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi, I go quickly through the email thread and didn't saw the simple > solution: > > use drinking_water > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drinking_water > «drinking_water=* indicates whether a feature provides drinking water, > specifically whether water is drinkable for humans. » > So if a cafe provide the service of supplying drinking water, I would use > the usual access values with this key > drinking_water=yes/no/private/... > > and use fee > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee > «The fee tag is for specifying whether a fee is usually charged for a > service, or for access. » > the service here is the drinking water so > drinking_water:fee=yes/no > And if more precision is needed use drinking_water:fee:conditional=* > > Of course most of the cafe give drinking water (though may be not > completely drinkable...) so drinking_water can be optional here. > > No new tag is needed here, KISS ;) > > Le lun. 13 janv. 2020 à 10:20, European Water Project < > europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com<mailto:europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com>> a > écrit : > > > Dear All, > > > > I thought this subject could wait, but it is becoming pressing early than > > I expected. > > > > As part of our project (and that of similar non-profits - most of which > > are not open data but nevertheless great organisations), we want to > > voluntarily encourage cafés, bars and restaurants to offer free tap water > > bottle refill to anyone off the street. Refill has had significant > success > > in the UK and surprising the feedback is that the impact of increased > > customer traffic far outweighs any issue of cannibalization. > > > > If it is not already the case, could we develop a tagging standard for > > this case. Maybe "amenity = cafe & fr
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Hello Stuart
Can you describe the difference between free_water and drinking_water better?
Based on the wiki drinking_water means free potable water.
Best regards,
Markus
Von: European Water Project<mailto:europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com>
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. Januar 2020 22:09
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
5. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
(Florimond Berthoux)
>>>> Hello Florimond, While I don't necessarily feel the solution you propose
>>>> is preferable, I do share your love of KISS though.
I have tried to fairly incorporate the main feedback from the tagging maillist
discussion.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Free_Water
Why do you think your proposal is preferred to the one outlined in the draft
proposal ?
free_water =
free_water:container =
Best regards,
Stuart
-
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 20:25:53 +0100
From: Florimond Berthoux
mailto:florimond.berth...@gmail.com>>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>>
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars,
restaurant
Message-ID:
mailto:nj7xbjp5htdah1zw9gfxhwh8c0jd...@mail.gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hi, I go quickly through the email thread and didn't saw the simple
solution:
use drinking_water
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drinking_water
«drinking_water=* indicates whether a feature provides drinking water,
specifically whether water is drinkable for humans. »
So if a cafe provide the service of supplying drinking water, I would use
the usual access values with this key
drinking_water=yes/no/private/...
and use fee
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee
«The fee tag is for specifying whether a fee is usually charged for a
service, or for access. »
the service here is the drinking water so
drinking_water:fee=yes/no
And if more precision is needed use drinking_water:fee:conditional=*
Of course most of the cafe give drinking water (though may be not
completely drinkable...) so drinking_water can be optional here.
No new tag is needed here, KISS ;)
Le lun. 13 janv. 2020 à 10:20, European Water Project <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com<mailto:europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com>> a écrit :
> Dear All,
>
> I thought this subject could wait, but it is becoming pressing early than
> I expected.
>
> As part of our project (and that of similar non-profits - most of which
> are not open data but nevertheless great organisations), we want to
> voluntarily encourage cafés, bars and restaurants to offer free tap water
> bottle refill to anyone off the street. Refill has had significant success
> in the UK and surprising the feedback is that the impact of increased
> customer traffic far outweighs any issue of cannibalization.
>
> If it is not already the case, could we develop a tagging standard for
> this case. Maybe "amenity = cafe & free_water = yes"
>
> It would be important to develop at the same time a distinct tag for
> another cause, which we support but will not be targeting is restaurants
> which offer free tap water for paying customers.
> Maybe "amenity = restuarant & free_carafe = yes"
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Stuart
>
> PS :
>
> The European Water Project progressive web app powered by OpenStreetMap,
> Wikidata and Wikimedia Commons data can be found :
> https://europeanwaterproject.org
>
>
>
--
Florimond Berthoux
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Le mer. 15 janv. 2020 à 23:47, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit : > > Thank you for pointing out the tag "drinking_water=yes/no" > > Looking at the wiki page for this tag and for the related tag > amenity=drinking_water, it is strongly implied that this is for a > drinking water supply which is self-service. > > Examples include water taps, drinking fountains, wells, and springs. > Features where this is commonly used include camping and wilderness > accomodations. This is how you read the pages, for me it’s free to use it everywhere just to tag if drinking water is available or not. Of course default tags can be assumed, drinking_water on an amenity=toilets is probably free. > So it may be reasonable to have a different tag for the situation > where the drinking water is only available by requesting it from the > employees of a business. self_service key https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:self_service can be used for this like: drinking_water:self_service=yes/no/... > I note that "drinking_water:fee" is not mentioned at > "Key:drinking_water" or "Tag:amenity=drinking_water" pages, and it has > only been used 7 times. As long as you know tags fee and drinking_water, and the meaning of the token ’:’ (A:B -> B of A), new tags can be created easily and be understood by every one without new page to write. As we are talking about drinking water in a Cafe/Pub/Bar drinking_water can be optional though we can use drinking_water:fee. drinking_water in a cafe can be assumed to not be self_service by default. -- Florimond Berthoux ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Thank you for pointing out the tag "drinking_water=yes/no" Looking at the wiki page for this tag and for the related tag amenity=drinking_water, it is strongly implied that this is for a drinking water supply which is self-service. Examples include water taps, drinking fountains, wells, and springs. Features where this is commonly used include camping and wilderness accomodations. So it may be reasonable to have a different tag for the situation where the drinking water is only available by requesting it from the employees of a business. I note that "drinking_water:fee" is not mentioned at "Key:drinking_water" or "Tag:amenity=drinking_water" pages, and it has only been used 7 times. The only place that drinking_water:fee is mentioned is as an idea at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:free_refill - the "free_refill" proposal. So I think a new tag like "free_water=" is sensible, since "amenity=drinking_water" and "drinking_water=yes" have previously been assumed to be both free of charge and accessible to the public without needing to ask special permission. - Joseph Eisenberg On 1/16/20, Florimond Berthoux wrote: > Because https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like > Tags are already defined and used. > free_water would be in conflict with tags fee and drinking_water. > free_water is two words with two concepts (price and service) > drinking_water:fee use the usual main:sub_propertie tagging pattern > > I have no opinion about container, but I can remember an old discussion > about tagging the property of street food shop where you are able to bring > you own "container" (food box). > In my pattern it would be drinking_water:container=* > > Le mer. 15 janv. 2020 à 22:09, European Water Project < > europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> a écrit : >>> >>> 5. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant >>> (Florimond Berthoux) >>> >>>> Hello Florimond, While I don't necessarily feel the solution you > propose is preferable, I do share your love of KISS though. >> >> >> I have tried to fairly incorporate the main feedback from the tagging > maillist discussion. >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Free_Water >> >> Why do you think your proposal is preferred to the one outlined in the > draft proposal ? >> free_water = >> free_water:container = >> >> Best regards, >> >> Stuart >> >> >> - >>> >>> >>> Message: 5 >>> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 20:25:53 +0100 >>> From: Florimond Berthoux >>> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, >>> restaurant >>> Message-ID: >>> nj7xbjp5htdah1zw9gfxhwh8c0jd...@mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Hi, I go quickly through the email thread and didn't saw the simple >>> solution: >>> >>> use drinking_water >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drinking_water >>> «drinking_water=* indicates whether a feature provides drinking water, >>> specifically whether water is drinkable for humans. » >>> So if a cafe provide the service of supplying drinking water, I would >>> use >>> the usual access values with this key >>> drinking_water=yes/no/private/... >>> >>> and use fee >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee >>> «The fee tag is for specifying whether a fee is usually charged for a >>> service, or for access. » >>> the service here is the drinking water so >>> drinking_water:fee=yes/no >>> And if more precision is needed use drinking_water:fee:conditional=* >>> >>> Of course most of the cafe give drinking water (though may be not >>> completely drinkable...) so drinking_water can be optional here. >>> >>> No new tag is needed here, KISS ;) >>> >>> Le lun. 13 janv. 2020 à 10:20, European Water Project < >>> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> a écrit : >>> >>> > Dear All, >>> > >>> > I thought this subject could wait, but it is becoming pressing early > than >>> > I expected. >>> > >>> > As part of our project (and that of similar non-profits - most of >>> > which >>> > are not open data but nevertheless great organisations), we want to >>> > voluntarily encourage cafés, bars and restaurants to
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Because https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like Tags are already defined and used. free_water would be in conflict with tags fee and drinking_water. free_water is two words with two concepts (price and service) drinking_water:fee use the usual main:sub_propertie tagging pattern I have no opinion about container, but I can remember an old discussion about tagging the property of street food shop where you are able to bring you own "container" (food box). In my pattern it would be drinking_water:container=* Le mer. 15 janv. 2020 à 22:09, European Water Project < europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> a écrit : >> >> 5. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant >> (Florimond Berthoux) >> >>>> Hello Florimond, While I don't necessarily feel the solution you propose is preferable, I do share your love of KISS though. > > > I have tried to fairly incorporate the main feedback from the tagging maillist discussion. > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Free_Water > > Why do you think your proposal is preferred to the one outlined in the draft proposal ? > free_water = > free_water:container = > > Best regards, > > Stuart > > > - >> >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 20:25:53 +0100 >> From: Florimond Berthoux >> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" >> >> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, >> restaurant >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi, I go quickly through the email thread and didn't saw the simple >> solution: >> >> use drinking_water >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drinking_water >> «drinking_water=* indicates whether a feature provides drinking water, >> specifically whether water is drinkable for humans. » >> So if a cafe provide the service of supplying drinking water, I would use >> the usual access values with this key >> drinking_water=yes/no/private/... >> >> and use fee >> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee >> «The fee tag is for specifying whether a fee is usually charged for a >> service, or for access. » >> the service here is the drinking water so >> drinking_water:fee=yes/no >> And if more precision is needed use drinking_water:fee:conditional=* >> >> Of course most of the cafe give drinking water (though may be not >> completely drinkable...) so drinking_water can be optional here. >> >> No new tag is needed here, KISS ;) >> >> Le lun. 13 janv. 2020 à 10:20, European Water Project < >> europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> a écrit : >> >> > Dear All, >> > >> > I thought this subject could wait, but it is becoming pressing early than >> > I expected. >> > >> > As part of our project (and that of similar non-profits - most of which >> > are not open data but nevertheless great organisations), we want to >> > voluntarily encourage cafés, bars and restaurants to offer free tap water >> > bottle refill to anyone off the street. Refill has had significant success >> > in the UK and surprising the feedback is that the impact of increased >> > customer traffic far outweighs any issue of cannibalization. >> > >> > If it is not already the case, could we develop a tagging standard for >> > this case. Maybe "amenity = cafe & free_water = yes" >> > >> > It would be important to develop at the same time a distinct tag for >> > another cause, which we support but will not be targeting is restaurants >> > which offer free tap water for paying customers. >> > Maybe "amenity = restuarant & free_carafe = yes" >> > >> > Many thanks, >> > >> > Stuart >> > >> > PS : >> > >> > The European Water Project progressive web app powered by OpenStreetMap, >> > Wikidata and Wikimedia Commons data can be found : >> > https://europeanwaterproject.org >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Florimond Berthoux >> > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Florimond Berthoux ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
> > 5. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant > (Florimond Berthoux) > >>>> Hello Florimond, While I don't necessarily feel the solution you > propose is preferable, I do share your love of KISS though. > I have tried to fairly incorporate the main feedback from the tagging maillist discussion. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Free_Water Why do you think your proposal is preferred to the one outlined in the draft proposal ? free_water = free_water:container = Best regards, Stuart - > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 20:25:53 +0100 > From: Florimond Berthoux > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > restaurant > Message-ID: > nj7xbjp5htdah1zw9gfxhwh8c0jd...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi, I go quickly through the email thread and didn't saw the simple > solution: > > use drinking_water > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drinking_water > «drinking_water=* indicates whether a feature provides drinking water, > specifically whether water is drinkable for humans. » > So if a cafe provide the service of supplying drinking water, I would use > the usual access values with this key > drinking_water=yes/no/private/... > > and use fee > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee > «The fee tag is for specifying whether a fee is usually charged for a > service, or for access. » > the service here is the drinking water so > drinking_water:fee=yes/no > And if more precision is needed use drinking_water:fee:conditional=* > > Of course most of the cafe give drinking water (though may be not > completely drinkable...) so drinking_water can be optional here. > > No new tag is needed here, KISS ;) > > Le lun. 13 janv. 2020 à 10:20, European Water Project < > europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> a écrit : > > > Dear All, > > > > I thought this subject could wait, but it is becoming pressing early than > > I expected. > > > > As part of our project (and that of similar non-profits - most of which > > are not open data but nevertheless great organisations), we want to > > voluntarily encourage cafés, bars and restaurants to offer free tap water > > bottle refill to anyone off the street. Refill has had significant > success > > in the UK and surprising the feedback is that the impact of increased > > customer traffic far outweighs any issue of cannibalization. > > > > If it is not already the case, could we develop a tagging standard for > > this case. Maybe "amenity = cafe & free_water = yes" > > > > It would be important to develop at the same time a distinct tag for > > another cause, which we support but will not be targeting is restaurants > > which offer free tap water for paying customers. > > Maybe "amenity = restuarant & free_carafe = yes" > > > > Many thanks, > > > > Stuart > > > > PS : > > > > The European Water Project progressive web app powered by OpenStreetMap, > > Wikidata and Wikimedia Commons data can be found : > > https://europeanwaterproject.org > > > > > > > > > > -- > Florimond Berthoux > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Hi, I go quickly through the email thread and didn't saw the simple solution: use drinking_water https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drinking_water «drinking_water=* indicates whether a feature provides drinking water, specifically whether water is drinkable for humans. » So if a cafe provide the service of supplying drinking water, I would use the usual access values with this key drinking_water=yes/no/private/... and use fee https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee «The fee tag is for specifying whether a fee is usually charged for a service, or for access. » the service here is the drinking water so drinking_water:fee=yes/no And if more precision is needed use drinking_water:fee:conditional=* Of course most of the cafe give drinking water (though may be not completely drinkable...) so drinking_water can be optional here. No new tag is needed here, KISS ;) Le lun. 13 janv. 2020 à 10:20, European Water Project < europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com> a écrit : > Dear All, > > I thought this subject could wait, but it is becoming pressing early than > I expected. > > As part of our project (and that of similar non-profits - most of which > are not open data but nevertheless great organisations), we want to > voluntarily encourage cafés, bars and restaurants to offer free tap water > bottle refill to anyone off the street. Refill has had significant success > in the UK and surprising the feedback is that the impact of increased > customer traffic far outweighs any issue of cannibalization. > > If it is not already the case, could we develop a tagging standard for > this case. Maybe "amenity = cafe & free_water = yes" > > It would be important to develop at the same time a distinct tag for > another cause, which we support but will not be targeting is restaurants > which offer free tap water for paying customers. > Maybe "amenity = restuarant & free_carafe = yes" > > Many thanks, > > Stuart > > PS : > > The European Water Project progressive web app powered by OpenStreetMap, > Wikidata and Wikimedia Commons data can be found : > https://europeanwaterproject.org > > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > -- Florimond Berthoux ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
> > > >1. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant > (Jyri-Petteri Paloposki) >>>>> Jyri-Petteri Yes. information regarding on whether or not a restaurant serves "free" water to a paying customer, is not part of our project is important and is a factor in my decision on whether or not to go to a restaurant (when in Switzerland). I started the proposal page, but apologize for not know how to properly fill it out. Please feel free to make amendments, or send me an email directly with instructions of what I should add (or remove). https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Free_Water Best regards, Stuart -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 13:24:06 +0200 > From: Jyri-Petteri Paloposki > To: tagging@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > restaurant > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 14.1.2020 13.06, Simon Poole wrote: > > Currently I see the usual problem that the discussion is trying to solve > > the general problem. Is anybody actually interested in if free water is > > dispensed in other than bring your own container/bottle scenarios? > > IMO this is also an interesting concept for use in bars, night clubs > etc. – I myself try to choose establishments that provide free water at > least when buying a drink, preferably also without buying a drink at the > same time. In Finland it is quite usual to provide it, but since it > isn't required, many establishments also charge for a glass of water, > silly as it is. > > Best regards, > -- > Jyri-Petteri Paloposki > > > > -- > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
On 14.1.2020 13.06, Simon Poole wrote: Currently I see the usual problem that the discussion is trying to solve the general problem. Is anybody actually interested in if free water is dispensed in other than bring your own container/bottle scenarios? IMO this is also an interesting concept for use in bars, night clubs etc. – I myself try to choose establishments that provide free water at least when buying a drink, preferably also without buying a drink at the same time. In Finland it is quite usual to provide it, but since it isn't required, many establishments also charge for a glass of water, silly as it is. Best regards, -- Jyri-Petteri Paloposki ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Am 13.01.2020 um 21:23 schrieb European Water Project: > > > Thanks Hauke > > The namespace scheme could work. It is very elegant and clean. The > meaning of customer in container is a bit confusing... as it can be a > paying or non paying customer. > > I could see : > free_water = > free_water:container = > free_water:table= > > How long does it typically take for the tag allocation decision > process to be completed? Do you have an example wiki proposal page ? To be clear "formal" approval is completely optional, documenting what you are using is best practice, discussing what could work and trying to find a consensus is wise. Currently I see the usual problem that the discussion is trying to solve the general problem. Is anybody actually interested in if free water is dispensed in other than bring your own container/bottle scenarios? Simon > > Best regards, > > Stuart > > > > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 19:57:02 +0100 > From: Hauke Stieler <mailto:m...@hauke-stieler.de>> > To: tagging@openstreetmap.org <mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > restaurant > Message-ID: <mailto:b247e31a-8523-a49b-0a9e-cd9a7f731...@hauke-stieler.de>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi Stuart, > > > The proposal below does not seem optimal, but if that is what is > decided > > we will write wiki instructions in this manner. > No decisions have been made so far. Currently all these mails just > contain ideas and discussions. > > I'm personally a fan of the namespace scheme, the one with the ":" > separating parts of a tag. You'll find this e.g. on addresses: > > addr:street=* > addr:city=* > addr:housenumber=* > ... > > Or also for parking situations: > > parking:lane=* > parking:lane:left=* > parking:condition=* > ... > > This semantic separation of a key creates a nice structure and > organizes > this huge collection of possible tags into groups. > > > I still prefer free_water_refill=yes/no free_water_table=yes/no > Because the beginning of these two tags are the same, for me > personally > it's a reason to change them into "free_water:..." tags. > > Using this scheme, I can also imagine the following tags (just ideas, > the keys and values are probably not optimal): > > free_water= > free_water:container= > free_water:table= > (maybe more...) > > However, in the end, there must probably be a tag proposal (a wiki > page > describing how the final tags should look like, what they exactly > mean, > when to use them, what use-cases do they have, etc.). Everybody > can vote > for or against the proposal, therefore it's in the end on the > community > to decide what tags become "official". > > Hauke > > -- next part -- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 833 bytes > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > URL: > > <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20200113/7ff6a580/attachment-0001.sig> > > -- > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 20:01:56 +0100 > From: European Water Project <mailto:europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com>> > To: tagging@openstreetmap.org <mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org> > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, (Martin > Koppenhoefer) > Message-ID: > > <mailto:gek8n0usxa_vbaurryqqwvv9f6emejdu1...@mail.gmail.com>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > > 2. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, (Martin Koppenhoefer) > > > >>>>> Martin, Italy is amazing. Apparently there are more than 100,000 > fountains in Italy. On the 24th of April, we are planning a > fountain hunt > in Rome with the My-D.org. We should be 20 people including locals > (just in > case you live there). > re: amenity=drinking_water > France is complicated and the lobbies have made almost all > perfectly good > water fountains labelled "non potable". Just across the borders in > Switzerland and Italy all the fountains are good to drink..
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
> free_water:container = bring_your_own is very explicit. but "provided" or "establishment" is ambiguous. from my experience, drinking a free glass of water in a cafe is not at all the same as receiving a container filled with water (I have never encountered this case). so the choice should be between values like your_own_takeaway_container <> on_site ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
sent from a phone > On 14. Jan 2020, at 10:13, European Water Project > wrote: > > free_water = I think allowing yes is ambiguous and can lead to confusion, but > if that is what is most acceptable fine. Someone could use yes to describe > customers. > > I would suggest > > free_water = I agree anyone is better than yes as it’s more explicit. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Le 14.01.20 à 10:00, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : > if you have to buy something in order to get "free" water, > it isn't free, is it? It's included. you're right, I often make that remark in everyday life. but in osm terminology, how would you inform the private and free swimming pool for hotel guests ? access=customers + fee=no or fee=included ? nearly nobody use https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/fee=included ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
> > 3. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant > (Joseph Eisenberg) > >>>>> Joseph, on the contrary. The bluntness demonstrates the clarity of the system. We want a tagging system that is acceptable to the community and widely adapted (with enforcement). free_water = I think allowing yes is ambiguous and can lead to confusion, but if that is what is most acceptable fine. Someone could use yes to describe customers. I would suggest free_water = > I am glad we see similar views on the free_water:container. Any of the permutations below seem fine to me. > free_water:container = - this seems fine? > Other options: > free_water:container = "bring_your_own" (maybe a little clearer?) > and > free_water:container = "available"? or maybe "provided"? > Best regards, Stuart Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 15:47:16 +0900 > From: Joseph Eisenberg > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > restaurant > Message-ID: > < > cap_2vph+xd+1x5sb6yyf0uig87drzdurqubf8yte2jd5zgg...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > What do you think of ? > > free_water = > > free_water:container = > > The standard "access" values that openstreetmap uses, relevant to this > discussion are: > > "yes" (this means "anyone" / "everyone" / "the general public") > "no" (this means "no for all the categories below") > "customers" (this means "only for customers" that is, for people who > have paid a fee or bought something) > > See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access#List_of_possible_values > > These values are commonly used for access to parking lots, for > example, so most people who add things to the map will know about > them. > > So the values of "free_water=" should be: > > free_water = yes > and > free_water = customer > > This will make it easier for mappers like us to understand your new > tags and use them correctly. > > free_water:container = - this seems fine? > Other options: > free_water:container = "bring_your_own" (maybe a little clearer?) > and > free_water:container = "available"? or maybe "provided"? > > Thank you for discussing this here! Many people just make up their new > tags without getting advice from the rest of the community, so you are > doing a good thing. Please forgive us for any overly blunt or direct > criticism - there are many different cultures and communication styles > represented here. > > (If you want, there is a whole, detailed "proposal process" that you > can follow if you want to get these tags official approved. It is not > required, but sometimes it can be helpful if you want more people to > discuss your ideas and the new tags to be displayed more prominently > on the wiki. > See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process for this option.) > > - Joseph Eisenberg > > On 1/14/20, European Water Project wrote: > >> > >> > >> 1. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant (Paul Allen) > >> > > > >>>>> Paul, thanks for your comment, I see your point > > What do you think of ? > > free_water = > > free_water:container = > > > >2. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant > >> (Joseph Eisenberg) > >> > >> >>>> Joseph, makes sense , I removed free_water:table > > What do you think of ? > > free_water = > > free_water:container = > > > > For the European Water Project, we would include cafes, bars, restaurants > > with > > free_water = anyone > > free_water:container =own > > > > and the other three combinations seem to sufficiently cover the other use > > cases > > > > Best regards, > > > > Stuart > > > > > > > >> -- > >> > >> Message: 1 > >> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 20:58:09 + > >> From: Paul Allen > >> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > >> > >> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > >> restaurant > >> Message-ID: > >> < > >> capy1do+9qzykszzmoyfogzrkfd94sfh3nxvxno4w7kfrpj9...@mail.gmail.com> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> >
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Am Mo., 13. Jan. 2020 um 22:51 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg < joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>: > free_water_table= or free_water:table= will be confusing for places > that sell take-out food and don't have tables, for examples small > fast-food restaurants, convenience shops, etc. > > The word "customers" should be included, since what you are trying to > specify is that "you can only get free water if you buy something > else", and "customers" is the standard term in Openstreetmap for this > idea. if you have to buy something in order to get "free" water, it isn't free, is it? It's included. Like you get "free bread" when you buy something to eat. Or "free table service" (if the service fee is included in the price). Or "free bathroom usage" (for customers). Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
> What do you think of ? > free_water = > free_water:container = The standard "access" values that openstreetmap uses, relevant to this discussion are: "yes" (this means "anyone" / "everyone" / "the general public") "no" (this means "no for all the categories below") "customers" (this means "only for customers" that is, for people who have paid a fee or bought something) See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access#List_of_possible_values These values are commonly used for access to parking lots, for example, so most people who add things to the map will know about them. So the values of "free_water=" should be: free_water = yes and free_water = customer This will make it easier for mappers like us to understand your new tags and use them correctly. free_water:container = - this seems fine? Other options: free_water:container = "bring_your_own" (maybe a little clearer?) and free_water:container = "available"? or maybe "provided"? Thank you for discussing this here! Many people just make up their new tags without getting advice from the rest of the community, so you are doing a good thing. Please forgive us for any overly blunt or direct criticism - there are many different cultures and communication styles represented here. (If you want, there is a whole, detailed "proposal process" that you can follow if you want to get these tags official approved. It is not required, but sometimes it can be helpful if you want more people to discuss your ideas and the new tags to be displayed more prominently on the wiki. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process for this option.) - Joseph Eisenberg On 1/14/20, European Water Project wrote: >> >> >> 1. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant (Paul Allen) >> > >>>>> Paul, thanks for your comment, I see your point > What do you think of ? > free_water = > free_water:container = > >2. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant >> (Joseph Eisenberg) >> >> >>>> Joseph, makes sense , I removed free_water:table > What do you think of ? > free_water = > free_water:container = > > For the European Water Project, we would include cafes, bars, restaurants > with > free_water = anyone > free_water:container =own > > and the other three combinations seem to sufficiently cover the other use > cases > > Best regards, > > Stuart > > > >> -- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 20:58:09 + >> From: Paul Allen >> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" >> >> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, >> restaurant >> Message-ID: >> < >> capy1do+9qzykszzmoyfogzrkfd94sfh3nxvxno4w7kfrpj9...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 at 20:52, Hauke Stieler >> wrote: >> >> > >> > What does "must_consume" mean? >> > >> >> free_water=must_consume means exactly what it says. Anybody who >> enters will be given free water and they MUST consume it. Or else. So >> we need a tag to specify the punishment if they refuse to consume the >> free water (such as being ejected, fined, or killed). >> >> Not, in my opinion, a good value for the key. >> >> -- >> Paul >> -- next part -- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: < >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20200113/89a75c48/attachment-0001.htm >> > >> >> -- >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 06:49:47 +0900 >> From: Joseph Eisenberg >> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" >> >> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, >> restaurant >> Message-ID: >> > co7yxdvdo+q6kusvtc-qysx...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" >> >> free_water_table= or free_water:table= will be confusing for places >> that sell take-out food and don't have tables, for examples small >> fast-food restaurants, convenience shops, etc. >> >> The word "customers" should be included, since what you are trying to >> specify is that "you can only get free water if you buy something >> else", and "customers" is the standard term in Openstreetmap for this >> idea. >> >> - Joseph Eisenberg >> >> >> >> > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
> > > 1. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant (Paul Allen) > >>>> Paul, thanks for your comment, I see your point What do you think of ? free_water = free_water:container = 2. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant > (Joseph Eisenberg) > > >>>> Joseph, makes sense , I removed free_water:table What do you think of ? free_water = free_water:container = For the European Water Project, we would include cafes, bars, restaurants with free_water = anyone free_water:container =own and the other three combinations seem to sufficiently cover the other use cases Best regards, Stuart > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 20:58:09 + > From: Paul Allen > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > restaurant > Message-ID: > < > capy1do+9qzykszzmoyfogzrkfd94sfh3nxvxno4w7kfrpj9...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 at 20:52, Hauke Stieler wrote: > > > > > What does "must_consume" mean? > > > > free_water=must_consume means exactly what it says. Anybody who > enters will be given free water and they MUST consume it. Or else. So > we need a tag to specify the punishment if they refuse to consume the > free water (such as being ejected, fined, or killed). > > Not, in my opinion, a good value for the key. > > -- > Paul > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20200113/89a75c48/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ---------- > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 06:49:47 +0900 > From: Joseph Eisenberg > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > restaurant > Message-ID: > co7yxdvdo+q6kusvtc-qysx...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > free_water_table= or free_water:table= will be confusing for places > that sell take-out food and don't have tables, for examples small > fast-food restaurants, convenience shops, etc. > > The word "customers" should be included, since what you are trying to > specify is that "you can only get free water if you buy something > else", and "customers" is the standard term in Openstreetmap for this > idea. > > - Joseph Eisenberg > > > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
free_water_table= or free_water:table= will be confusing for places that sell take-out food and don't have tables, for examples small fast-food restaurants, convenience shops, etc. The word "customers" should be included, since what you are trying to specify is that "you can only get free water if you buy something else", and "customers" is the standard term in Openstreetmap for this idea. - Joseph Eisenberg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 at 20:52, Hauke Stieler wrote: > > What does "must_consume" mean? > free_water=must_consume means exactly what it says. Anybody who enters will be given free water and they MUST consume it. Or else. So we need a tag to specify the punishment if they refuse to consume the free water (such as being ejected, fined, or killed). Not, in my opinion, a good value for the key. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Hi Stuart > I could see : > free_water = > free_water:container = > free_water:table= If something is for the general public (= anyone) the value is usually "yes" (as at the "access" tag [0]) and then there are further restricting values (when there's a "yes" there's mostly at least also a "no"). What does "must_consume" mean? People visiting this place and consuming water at that place (e.g. during a dinner in a restaurant)? If that's the case, then I would use the value "customers" as it is already used and known for other tags. > How long does it typically take for the tag allocation decision process > to be completed? Do you have an example wiki proposal page ? There's a description page on the proposal process [1] describing each step that should be done. As an example, there's the proposal page for "amenity=public_bookcase" [2] which had a rather fast proposal process without much discussion. As you can see there, it took nearly one month from a first draft to the accepted tag. As your tag idea and use-cases are quite clear, simple and would add usable and helpful tags, your proposal probably won't take any longer than that. The proposal description page also specifies the recommended duration the proposal has to stay in one state (e.g. to wait for further discussion or to wait for people to vote). Don't mind to ask questions on the proposal process (even though I'm not an expert in this). Hauke [0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/public_bookcase signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
> > > Thanks Hauke The namespace scheme could work. It is very elegant and clean. The meaning of customer in container is a bit confusing... as it can be a paying or non paying customer. I could see : free_water = free_water:container = free_water:table= How long does it typically take for the tag allocation decision process to be completed? Do you have an example wiki proposal page ? Best regards, Stuart > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 19:57:02 +0100 > From: Hauke Stieler > To: tagging@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > restaurant > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi Stuart, > > > The proposal below does not seem optimal, but if that is what is decided > > we will write wiki instructions in this manner. > No decisions have been made so far. Currently all these mails just > contain ideas and discussions. > > I'm personally a fan of the namespace scheme, the one with the ":" > separating parts of a tag. You'll find this e.g. on addresses: > > addr:street=* > addr:city=* > addr:housenumber=* > ... > > Or also for parking situations: > > parking:lane=* > parking:lane:left=* > parking:condition=* > ... > > This semantic separation of a key creates a nice structure and organizes > this huge collection of possible tags into groups. > > > I still prefer free_water_refill=yes/no free_water_table=yes/no > Because the beginning of these two tags are the same, for me personally > it's a reason to change them into "free_water:..." tags. > > Using this scheme, I can also imagine the following tags (just ideas, > the keys and values are probably not optimal): > > free_water= > free_water:container= > free_water:table= > (maybe more...) > > However, in the end, there must probably be a tag proposal (a wiki page > describing how the final tags should look like, what they exactly mean, > when to use them, what use-cases do they have, etc.). Everybody can vote > for or against the proposal, therefore it's in the end on the community > to decide what tags become "official". > > Hauke > > -- next part -- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 833 bytes > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > URL: < > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20200113/7ff6a580/attachment-0001.sig > > > > -- > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 20:01:56 +0100 > From: European Water Project > To: tagging@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, (Martin > Koppenhoefer) > Message-ID: > gek8n0usxa_vbaurryqqwvv9f6emejdu1...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > >2. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, (Martin Koppenhoefer) > > > >>>>> Martin, Italy is amazing. Apparently there are more than 100,000 > fountains in Italy. On the 24th of April, we are planning a fountain hunt > in Rome with the My-D.org. We should be 20 people including locals (just in > case you live there). > re: amenity=drinking_water > France is complicated and the lobbies have made almost all perfectly good > water fountains labelled "non potable". Just across the borders in > Switzerland and Italy all the fountains are good to drink.. > > Price can be an incentive, but unless the waste producer pays all true > indirect externalities the cost will always be minimal for PET. > > > > 3. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, (Philip Barnes) > > > > >>>>>>>Philip, Yes, like the US and France. We believe that it should be > that way everywhere. No one should have to create single-use waste to keep > themselves hydrated. > > > > > > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:50:20 +0100 > > From: Martin Koppenhoefer > > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > > > > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > > Message-ID: > > < > > cabptjtclw2ikprn1vagbtc4x9zguotol0xcoxz5mpnc6g0-...@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > Am Mo., 13. Jan. 2020 um 17:29 Uhr schrieb European Water Project < > > europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com>: > > > > > While I understand your point of view, many are trying hard to change > > > legislation and mig
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Hi Stuart, > The proposal below does not seem optimal, but if that is what is decided > we will write wiki instructions in this manner. No decisions have been made so far. Currently all these mails just contain ideas and discussions. I'm personally a fan of the namespace scheme, the one with the ":" separating parts of a tag. You'll find this e.g. on addresses: addr:street=* addr:city=* addr:housenumber=* ... Or also for parking situations: parking:lane=* parking:lane:left=* parking:condition=* ... This semantic separation of a key creates a nice structure and organizes this huge collection of possible tags into groups. > I still prefer free_water_refill=yes/no free_water_table=yes/no Because the beginning of these two tags are the same, for me personally it's a reason to change them into "free_water:..." tags. Using this scheme, I can also imagine the following tags (just ideas, the keys and values are probably not optimal): free_water= free_water:container= free_water:table= (maybe more...) However, in the end, there must probably be a tag proposal (a wiki page describing how the final tags should look like, what they exactly mean, when to use them, what use-cases do they have, etc.). Everybody can vote for or against the proposal, therefore it's in the end on the community to decide what tags become "official". Hauke signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
13 Jan 2020, 14:04 by europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com: > Hello, > BTW, thanks for consulting with us how to tag this feature!___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Dear Hauke, It goes without saying that we will develop best practice instructions on wikimedia for how to tag cafes and bars which offer free water bottle refill for non paying customers. We will not give instructions for the other cases as that is not our target audience. The proposal below does not seem optimal, but if that is what is decided we will write wiki instructions in this manner. I still prefer free_water_refill=yes/no free_water_table=yes/no Does anyone else prefer this nomenclature ? Best regards, Stuart > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 14:26:13 +0100 > From: Hauke Stieler > To: tagging@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > restaurant > Message-ID: <75a599bd-f69a-b1f2-8cb6-ea0abed3a...@hauke-stieler.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi, > > > This model is used for many other tags in OSM. One of the most > > fundamental tags, access=*, uses it to show "access only for customers" > > for example. > > See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Dcustomers . > > free_water=customers would not look out of place at all in that list. > > +1 > I think the wiki/documentation of the European Water Project should then > describe this in a way that newbies also understand the different values > of the tag. > > > The other dimension that has been mentioned, is "bring your own > > container" vs. "we supply the container". Something like > > "container=customer", "container=supplier" or "container=both" perhaps? > > Because a "container" could be anything (at a supermarket or kiosk it > could also be a container for food), I suggest something like > "free_water:container=*" to make clear that the container "availability" > refers to the refill service. > > Hauke > > -- next part -- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: signature.asc > Type: application/pgp-signature > Size: 833 bytes > Desc: OpenPGP digital signature > URL: < > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20200113/55b94bef/attachment-0001.sig > > > > -- > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 22:38:12 +0900 > From: Joseph Eisenberg > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > restaurant > Message-ID: > 3_02l...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > I suggest something like > "free_water:container=*" to make clear that the container "availability" > refers to the refill service. > > +1 > > > > - > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
sent from a phone > On 13. Jan 2020, at 14:07, European Water Project > wrote: > > How about free_water_refill=yes free_water_table=yes ? free_water_refill at a restaurant or cafe to me sounds as if you must buy water and get refills for free Maybe we would want to distinguish getting water by yourself from an accessible tap or bottle/carafe vs. getting it from the bar staff / waiters after you asked for it? How would we tag a place with free drinks with your meal? I’m asking because free water for customers sounds more like a marketing tale than like something we’d tag in OpenStreetMap (it’s not “free”, it’s included). > What is the character count permissible for tags ? maybe it’s 255 ascii characters (technically), there is no agreed limit, as short as you can while remaining easily distinguishable and no abbreviations etc. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
> I suggest something like "free_water:container=*" to make clear that the container "availability" refers to the refill service. +1 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Hi, > This model is used for many other tags in OSM. One of the most > fundamental tags, access=*, uses it to show "access only for customers" > for example. > See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Dcustomers . > free_water=customers would not look out of place at all in that list. +1 I think the wiki/documentation of the European Water Project should then describe this in a way that newbies also understand the different values of the tag. > The other dimension that has been mentioned, is "bring your own > container" vs. "we supply the container". Something like > "container=customer", "container=supplier" or "container=both" perhaps? Because a "container" could be anything (at a supermarket or kiosk it could also be a container for food), I suggest something like "free_water:container=*" to make clear that the container "availability" refers to the refill service. Hauke signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Hello, 1) free_water=yes if it is available to anybody, and free_water=customers is very confusing and people will mis-tag free water for paying customers as free_water=yes This model is used for many other tags in OSM. One of the most fundamental tags, access=*, uses it to show "access only for customers" for example. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Dcustomers . free_water=customers would not look out of place at all in that list. >>> It may be OSM compatible but doesn't seem optimal and our crowdsource model may bring newbies tagging incorrectly cafes and bars. How about free_water_refill=yes free_water_table=yes ? What is the character count permissible for tags ? Here are the instructions for adding new fountains in 6 languages. Written with the help of Wikimedia, OSM France, OSM Spain and OSM Switzerland and friends. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CH/Project/European_Water_Project 2) The other dimension that has been mentioned, is "bring your own container" vs. "we supply the container". Something like "container=customer", "container=supplier" or "container=both" perhaps? >>> container=supplier does not allow individuals to carry at all times a reusable water bottle. a) of course an establishment always has the right (and the obligation) to refuse to fill a filthy water bottle. I would also suggest individuals always unscrew the top of the bottle before handing to the barman ... to reduce the possibility of germ contamination. This being said, I can see the usefulness of this tag understand the usefulness of this tag (although we will exclude container=supplier from our application display. Best regards, Stuart > > > Today's Topics: > >1. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant > (European Water Project) > > > -- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 12:18:19 +0100 > From: European Water Project > To: tagging@openstreetmap.org > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > restaurant > Message-ID: > tsvcgbt3xd-zkvhfd3fh0ovaqbjistxxfrgktzp9la9f...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hello, > > 1) > free_water=yes if it is available to anybody, and free_water=customers is > very confusing and people will mis-tag free water for paying customers as > free_water=yes > > 2) > yes, amenity=cafe, amenity=bar, amenity=restaurant are just examples. I > wanted to give context for the purpose of the discussion. Our NGO will > contribute to the creation of a network of cafes and restaurants willing to > refill water bottles all over Europe. > > 3) carafe was a suggestion, happy to entertain any more self explicit > suggestions. > > 4) yes, I have had extensive conversations with the Refill headquarters.. > Their board will not entertain an open data model. > > Best regards, > > Stuart > > PS : I hope > > > > > > > > >6. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant > > (Jake Edmonds) > > > > > > ---------- > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 11:06:58 +0100 (CET) > > From: Mateusz Konieczny > > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > > > > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > > restaurant > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > 13 Jan 2020, 10:42 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl: > > > > > > > > How about free_water=yes if it is available to anybody, and > > free_water=customers if it is only available to paying customers? > > > > > > > > +1 > > > > And free_water=no for explicit tagging of not providing a free water. > > > > > I assume this could actually apply to all manner of objects, including > > pubs, bus stations, town squares... If so, there is no need to reference > > amenity=cafe etc in the tagging standards, other than as a non-normative > > illustration or example. > > > > > Though I am unsure whatever tagging town square with mapped > > amenity=drinking_water is a good idea. > > > > > > > Referencing carafe is not a good plan; firstly that is the container, > > not the contents and this proposal is about the contents. Secondly, many > > other things are frequently served in carafes, such as wine. So > > free_carafe=yes may end up disappointing a few people... > > > > > And water is not always served
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
On 2020-01-13 12:18, European Water Project wrote: > Hello, > > 1) > free_water=yes if it is available to anybody, and free_water=customers is > very confusing and people will mis-tag free water for paying customers as > free_water=yes This model is used for many other tags in OSM. One of the most fundamental tags, access=*, uses it to show "access only for customers" for example. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Dcustomers . free_water=customers would not look out of place at all in that list. The other dimension that has been mentioned, is "bring your own container" vs. "we supply the container". Something like "container=customer", "container=supplier" or "container=both" perhaps?___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Hello, 1) free_water=yes if it is available to anybody, and free_water=customers is very confusing and people will mis-tag free water for paying customers as free_water=yes 2) yes, amenity=cafe, amenity=bar, amenity=restaurant are just examples. I wanted to give context for the purpose of the discussion. Our NGO will contribute to the creation of a network of cafes and restaurants willing to refill water bottles all over Europe. 3) carafe was a suggestion, happy to entertain any more self explicit suggestions. 4) yes, I have had extensive conversations with the Refill headquarters.. Their board will not entertain an open data model. Best regards, Stuart PS : I hope > >6. Re: Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant > (Jake Edmonds) > > > -- > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 11:06:58 +0100 (CET) > From: Mateusz Konieczny > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > > Subject: Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, > restaurant > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > 13 Jan 2020, 10:42 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl: > > > > > How about free_water=yes if it is available to anybody, and > free_water=customers if it is only available to paying customers? > > > > > +1 > > And free_water=no for explicit tagging of not providing a free water. > > > I assume this could actually apply to all manner of objects, including > pubs, bus stations, town squares... If so, there is no need to reference > amenity=cafe etc in the tagging standards, other than as a non-normative > illustration or example. > > > Though I am unsure whatever tagging town square with mapped > amenity=drinking_water is a good idea. > > > > Referencing carafe is not a good plan; firstly that is the container, > not the contents and this proposal is about the contents. Secondly, many > other things are frequently served in carafes, such as wine. So > free_carafe=yes may end up disappointing a few people... > > > And water is not always served in a carafe. > > And as bonus this tag is significantly less clear in meaning (even > "carafe" word > is among rare ones, more likely to be unknown). > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/attachments/20200113/ecab19bc/attachment-0001.htm > > > > -- > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 11:10:36 +0100 > From: Frederik Ramm > To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" > > Subject: [Tagging] Rio de la Plata edit war > Message-ID: <6433c9f7-7adf-a9d0-b1c8-1d274daaa...@remote.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Hi, > > it appears that once again mappers are in diasgreement about how to map > the Rio de la Plata, here > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/-35.154/-56.310 > > This is a disagreement that had already flared up three years ago, and > is now coming back. > > According to Wikipedia, the International Hydrographic Organization > defines the eastern boundary of the Río de la Plata as "a line joining > Punta del Este, Uruguay and Cabo San Antonio, Argentina", which is what > has been the case in OSM until now: > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/186710973 (the coastline across the > "mouth" of the "river") > > and > > https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3474227 (the "river") > > This current representation in OSM leads to a few strange situations > especially in toolchains/map styles that use different colours for > inland water and oceans, or that draw sea depths, or just highlight the > coastline. Buenos Aires, according to OSM, is currently not a coastal city. > > One of the involved mappers who aligned the coastline more closely with > the coast wrote (https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/79201390) "I > believe this is inline with guidance > (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural=coastline)". > > I'm not so clear about how to interpret the wiki page myself when it > comes to river mouths. There's a clarifying proposal here > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/Coastline-River_transit_placement > but this is still at the proposal stage. > > Opinions? > > Bye > Frederik > > -- > Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" > > > > -- > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 19:28:30 +0900 > From: Joseph Eisenberg
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
I’ve heard of places not refilling water bottles due to hygiene reasons (whether that is a concern or not is a separate discussion) but will give a glass of water to whoever asks. And on the opposite side, there are places that will refill bottles but won’t give a glass a water. > On 13 Jan 2020, at 11:06, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > 13 Jan 2020, 10:42 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl: > How about free_water=yes if it is available to anybody, and > free_water=customers if it is only available to paying customers? > > +1 > > And free_water=no for explicit tagging of not providing a free water. > I assume this could actually apply to all manner of objects, including pubs, > bus stations, town squares... If so, there is no need to reference > amenity=cafe etc in the tagging standards, other than as a non-normative > illustration or example. > Though I am unsure whatever tagging town square with mapped > amenity=drinking_water is a good idea. > > Referencing carafe is not a good plan; firstly that is the container, not the > contents and this proposal is about the contents. Secondly, many other things > are frequently served in carafes, such as wine. So free_carafe=yes may end up > disappointing a few people... > And water is not always served in a carafe. > > And as bonus this tag is significantly less clear in meaning (even "carafe" > word > is among rare ones, more likely to be unknown). > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
13 Jan 2020, 10:42 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl: > > How about free_water=yes if it is available to anybody, and > free_water=customers if it is only available to paying customers? > > +1 And free_water=no for explicit tagging of not providing a free water. > I assume this could actually apply to all manner of objects, including pubs, > bus stations, town squares... If so, there is no need to reference > amenity=cafe etc in the tagging standards, other than as a non-normative > illustration or example. > Though I am unsure whatever tagging town square with mapped amenity=drinking_water is a good idea. > Referencing carafe is not a good plan; firstly that is the container, not the > contents and this proposal is about the contents. Secondly, many other things > are frequently served in carafes, such as wine. So free_carafe=yes may end up > disappointing a few people... > And water is not always served in a carafe. And as bonus this tag is significantly less clear in meaning (even "carafe" word is among rare ones, more likely to be unknown). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
On 2020-01-13 10:18, European Water Project wrote: > Dear All, > > I thought this subject could wait, but it is becoming pressing early than I > expected. > > As part of our project (and that of similar non-profits - most of which are > not open data but nevertheless great organisations), we want to voluntarily > encourage cafés, bars and restaurants to offer free tap water bottle refill > to anyone off the street. Refill has had significant success in the UK and > surprising the feedback is that the impact of increased customer traffic far > outweighs any issue of cannibalization. > > If it is not already the case, could we develop a tagging standard for this > case. Maybe "amenity = cafe & free_water = yes" > > It would be important to develop at the same time a distinct tag for another > cause, which we support but will not be targeting is restaurants which offer > free tap water for paying customers. > Maybe "amenity = restuarant & free_carafe = yes" How about free_water=yes if it is available to anybody, and free_water=customers if it is only available to paying customers? I assume this could actually apply to all manner of objects, including pubs, bus stations, town squares... If so, there is no need to reference amenity=cafe etc in the tagging standards, other than as a non-normative illustration or example. Referencing carafe is not a good plan; firstly that is the container, not the contents and this proposal is about the contents. Secondly, many other things are frequently served in carafes, such as wine. So free_carafe=yes may end up disappointing a few people...___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
I’m in support of something. Did you speak to Refill about sharing data? I emailed them some time back but never received a response Sent from Jake Edmonds' iPhone > On 13 Jan 2020, at 10:20, European Water Project > wrote: > > > Dear All, > > I thought this subject could wait, but it is becoming pressing early than I > expected. > > As part of our project (and that of similar non-profits - most of which are > not open data but nevertheless great organisations), we want to voluntarily > encourage cafés, bars and restaurants to offer free tap water bottle refill > to anyone off the street. Refill has had significant success in the UK and > surprising the feedback is that the impact of increased customer traffic far > outweighs any issue of cannibalization. > > If it is not already the case, could we develop a tagging standard for this > case. Maybe "amenity = cafe & free_water = yes" > > It would be important to develop at the same time a distinct tag for another > cause, which we support but will not be targeting is restaurants which offer > free tap water for paying customers. > Maybe "amenity = restuarant & free_carafe = yes" > > Many thanks, > > Stuart > > PS : > > The European Water Project progressive web app powered by OpenStreetMap, > Wikidata and Wikimedia Commons data can be found : > https://europeanwaterproject.org > > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Tagging Free Water for cafés, bars, restaurant
Dear All, I thought this subject could wait, but it is becoming pressing early than I expected. As part of our project (and that of similar non-profits - most of which are not open data but nevertheless great organisations), we want to voluntarily encourage cafés, bars and restaurants to offer free tap water bottle refill to anyone off the street. Refill has had significant success in the UK and surprising the feedback is that the impact of increased customer traffic far outweighs any issue of cannibalization. If it is not already the case, could we develop a tagging standard for this case. Maybe "amenity = cafe & free_water = yes" It would be important to develop at the same time a distinct tag for another cause, which we support but will not be targeting is restaurants which offer free tap water for paying customers. Maybe "amenity = restuarant & free_carafe = yes" Many thanks, Stuart PS : The European Water Project progressive web app powered by OpenStreetMap, Wikidata and Wikimedia Commons data can be found : https://europeanwaterproject.org ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
