Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 at 01:25, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

In Australia most, if not all, landlines will not process SMS calls. They
> may not take video calls, etc.
>

By default, the same is true of landlines in the UK.  But BT (and possibly)
others offer text
services with landlines:
http://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9043/~/set-up-and-use-bt-text

The BT landline  offering is free to receive SMS but it costs to send them.

Most mobile (cell) phones will process SMS, photos, documents and video
> information.
>

However, the mobile in question may wish not to receive SMSs.   See, for
example,
https://www.facebook.com/pg/Porters-cabin-228628847716482/about/

The ability to identify phones that have SMS, etc capabilities may be
> desired.
>

Given that in some countries it's not possible to tell mobile from landline
just by inspecting
the number; given that some landlines can receive SMS; given that some
mobile owner
do not wish to be sent SMS; given that the wiki for phone=* casually
mentions fax=*;
then I suggest we need sms=* or phone:sms=* for when the mapper knows that
SMS
usage is acceptable on that number.

Landline numbers used to be fixed to some address. These days the number
> can be taken by the subscriber to another address (if they stay within the
> same area code, outside that the number may already be in use).
>

In the UK you can take your number AND area code with you.  Of course, it
costs money to do
so, but out-of-area numbering is fairly common.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Warin]

On 26/09/19 05:34, Colin Smale wrote:


On 2019-09-25 21:19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

before number portability was introduced, a landline was more 
connected to a place than to a person/business, while mobile phones 
always have been personal. Big companies may be different, but places 
with small businesses often keep the number when the tenant changes.


That is a sweeping generalisation. Small businesses, and individuals, 
are often able to take their number with them when moving address. 
These days you can even take geographic numbers to different areas in 
some cases. The current situation in the areas I am aware of (W. 
Europe) is that the geographic indication that may be given by a 
certain prefix is of ever-decreasing value, and that the distinction 
between landline and mobile numbers is also blurring. These days it is 
simply a number.
Be careful, as I am, not to project the situation in your 
personal environment onto the rest of the world.



In Australia most, if not all, landlines will not process SMS calls. 
They may not take video calls, etc.
Most mobile (cell) phones will process SMS, photos, documents and video 
information.
The ability to identify phones that have SMS, etc capabilities may be 
desired.


Fortunately cell phones in Australia have a prefix of 04 that identifies 
them as cell phones, I think if called internationally that gives a +61 
4 xx xxx xxx number. Not certain if that works but it follows the 
usually rules here for intentional calls.


Landline numbers used to be fixed to some address. These days the number 
can be taken by the subscriber to another address (if they stay within 
the same area code, outside that the number may already be in use).




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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-09-25 21:19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> before number portability was introduced, a landline was more connected to a 
> place than to a person/business, while mobile phones always have been 
> personal. Big companies may be different, but places with small businesses 
> often keep the number when the tenant changes.

That is a sweeping generalisation. Small businesses, and individuals,
are often able to take their number with them when moving address. These
days you can even take geographic numbers to different areas in some
cases. The current situation in the areas I am aware of (W. Europe) is
that the geographic indication that may be given by a certain prefix is
of ever-decreasing value, and that the distinction between landline and
mobile numbers is also blurring. These days it is simply a number. 

Be careful, as I am, not to project the situation in your personal
environment onto the rest of the world.___
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Sep 2019, at 18:02, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> It is very much on topic because it is the basis of whether or not there is 
> any point in making
> a distinction between a mobile and a landline.  If there are no charge 
> differences then they're
> both just phone numbers and we don't need a special tag for mobile phones.


before number portability was introduced, a landline was more connected to a 
place than to a person/business, while mobile phones always have been personal. 
Big companies may be different, but places with small businesses often keep the 
number when the tenant changes.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Valor Naram]

That is definitely not what I want. I was just picking up the suggestions made from within this list.Yes, the current Key:phone wiki page provides a way to tag those cases we're talking about which I am going to describe further:- `phone:` Phone number that can be reached from just within the country `` e.g. `phone:de=4445 747268`- `phone` Phone number in international format which can be called from abroad and not just from country `` e.g. `phone=+49 4341 747268`I also incorporated it into my spec for Key:phone (see the initial e-mail of this thread) because I want to clean up the mess from the wiki page. I don't bother to delete `phone:emergency` and so on from my spec.~ Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changingFrom: Paul Allen To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 18:08, Valor Naram  wrote:So you suggest `phone:international` and `phone` beside of the other keys `phone:press`, `phone:night`, `phone:emergency`?Every time somebody suggest that we don't need all the phone variants that can befound in the wild, you pop up interpreting that person as suggesting we need even more.What Colin suggested was that PERHAPS we need to deal with the situation where thephone has one number when dialled from within the same country but a different numberwhen dialled internationally.  What he failed to notice is that the wiki already suggests away of dealing with this (and it doesn't use phone:international).You appear to be just flinging variants of phone at the wall in the hope some will stick, possiblyso you can use those as a wedge to get whatever variant it is that you really want.  If that iswhat you're doing, I don't think it's helping your case because I'm rapidly tiring of it and itappears that many people think we don't need all the variants we already have.-- Paul
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-09-25 20:51, Paul Allen wrote:

> What Colin suggested was that PERHAPS we need to deal with the situation 
> where the 
> phone has one number when dialled from within the same country but a 
> different number 
> when dialled internationally.  What he failed to notice is that the wiki 
> already suggests a 
> way of dealing with this (and it doesn't use phone:international).

You are right Paul, I hadn't noticed this. To summarise that here, it
suggests phone:XX=* to mean "use this number when calling from country
XX". Having read that section a couple of times it does not seem to make
clear whether whether it intends to refer to "phones connected to a
network in XX" or "phones with a SIM issued by a network in XX," the
difference becoming significant in a roaming situation. 

I note that section starts with a banner: "This hasn't been voted and is
just a documentation of use". Maybe this discussion can remedy that and
confirm the proposed syntax, or otherwise agree an alternative. In the
latter case of course someone with more guts than me will probably
suggest retagging.___
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 19:54, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> In the UK it is easy to tell a mobile number, I would not be happy getting
> a builder who only has a mobile number. It suggests lack of permanent
> location.
>

Or a one-man-and-a-dog operation and he's not managed to train the dog to
answer the
landline.  "What's the quality of his work like?"  "Ruff."

A harder one is a farm offering some sort of service.  Perhaps they have a
holiday cottage or
two on the farm (I've mapped a few like that).  They may have both a
landline and a mobile but,
because they're often out and about on the farm (if it's a working farm) or
cleaning the holiday
cottage between visitors) suggest you use their mobile rather than their
landline.  Or don't even
bother to give a landline number,. just the mobile.

It's not always easy to decide whether to map the landline or the mobile.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Philip Barnes]

In the UK it is easy to tell a mobile number, I would not be happy getting a 
builder who only has a mobile number. It suggests lack of permanent location.

Phil (trigpoint)

On Wednesday, 25 September 2019, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 17:00, Valor Naram  wrote:
> 
> > We should not talk any longer about charging plans (which provider and
> > when will apply different charges to whom) because we're difting off -->
> > going Off-Topic.
> >
> 
> It is very much on topic because it is the basis of whether or not there is
> any point in making
> a distinction between a mobile and a landline.  If there are no charge
> differences then they're
> both just phone numbers and we don't need a special tag for mobile phones.
> 
> -- 
> Paul
>

-- 
Sent from my Sailfish device
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 18:08, Valor Naram  wrote:

> So you suggest `phone:international` and `phone` beside of the other keys
> `phone:press`, `phone:night`, `phone:emergency`?
>

Every time somebody suggest that we don't need all the phone variants that
can be
found in the wild, you pop up interpreting that person as suggesting we
need even more.

What Colin suggested was that PERHAPS we need to deal with the situation
where the
phone has one number when dialled from within the same country but a
different number
when dialled internationally.  What he failed to notice is that the wiki
already suggests a
way of dealing with this (and it doesn't use phone:international).

You appear to be just flinging variants of phone at the wall in the hope
some will stick, possibly
so you can use those as a wedge to get whatever variant it is that you
really want.  If that is
what you're doing, I don't think it's helping your case because I'm rapidly
tiring of it and it
appears that many people think we don't need all the variants we already
have.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Valor Naram]

So you suggest `phone:international` and `phone` beside of the other keys `phone:press`, `phone:night`, `phone:emergency`?~ Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changingFrom: Colin Smale To: tagging@openstreetmap.orgCC: 
On 2019-09-25 18:02, Paul Allen wrote:


On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 17:00, Valor Naram  wrote:

We should not talk any longer about charging plans (which provider and when will apply different charges to whom) because we're difting off --> going Off-Topic.
 
It is very much on topic because it is the basis of whether or not there is any point in making
a distinction between a mobile and a landline.  If there are no charge differences then they're
both just phone numbers and we don't need a special tag for mobile phones.
 





And the charge for dialling a given number is not simply a function of that number, but many other factors (source provider, time of day, day of week, source network, contract terms, ) It is hopeless to even think of capturing that in OSM. Let's just stick to a simple number.
 
One distinction that may be useful, is whether the number is universally dialable. Some numbers (often short codes) may only be dialable from phones on the same MCC or MCC+MNC in the IMSI or connected to the same MNO. Is the number dialable from a random phone in a different country? Or does it only work if you have (e.g.) a UK phone?
 
I think it would make sense to prefer universally dialable numbers. Often organisations have a free/premium number AND a normal number for "if you are abroad." The latter would get my vote if we can only have a single number. Otherwise we need some subtag so we can encode both?
 
 



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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-09-25 18:02, Paul Allen wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 17:00, Valor Naram  wrote: 
> 
>> We should not talk any longer about charging plans (which provider and when 
>> will apply different charges to whom) because we're difting off --> going 
>> Off-Topic.
> 
> It is very much on topic because it is the basis of whether or not there is 
> any point in making 
> a distinction between a mobile and a landline.  If there are no charge 
> differences then they're 
> both just phone numbers and we don't need a special tag for mobile phones.

And the charge for dialling a given number is not simply a function of
that number, but many other factors (source provider, time of day, day
of week, source network, contract terms, ) It is hopeless to even
think of capturing that in OSM. Let's just stick to a simple number. 

One distinction that may be useful, is whether the number is universally
dialable. Some numbers (often short codes) may only be dialable from
phones on the same MCC or MCC+MNC in the IMSI or connected to the same
MNO. Is the number dialable from a random phone in a different country?
Or does it only work if you have (e.g.) a UK phone? 

I think it would make sense to prefer universally dialable numbers.
Often organisations have a free/premium number AND a normal number for
"if you are abroad." The latter would get my vote if we can only have a
single number. Otherwise we need some subtag so we can encode both?___
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 17:00, Valor Naram  wrote:

> We should not talk any longer about charging plans (which provider and
> when will apply different charges to whom) because we're difting off -->
> going Off-Topic.
>

It is very much on topic because it is the basis of whether or not there is
any point in making
a distinction between a mobile and a landline.  If there are no charge
differences then they're
both just phone numbers and we don't need a special tag for mobile phones.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 16:11, Colin Smale  wrote:

> On 2019-09-25 16:08, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> In the UK, people can tell that from the area code.
>
>
> What about the cases where calls to customers on the same provider are
> free? In general you have no way of knowing who is on which provider. And
> thanks to number portability it is getting shuffled at a few percent a year
> anyway.
>

Yep, it's getting worse because of number portability.  But it's still
possible (mostly) to distinguish
between a mobile and a landline.  And it's still the case that mobile to
mobile with different
providers is less than mobile to landline.  Except where the same operator
runs the mobile and
landline.  But even there, BT make no distinction between calling their own
mobiles or some
other provider's mobile from a BT landline.

-- 
Paul



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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Valor Naram]

We should not talk any longer about charging plans (which provider and when will apply different charges to whom) because we're difting off --> going Off-Topic.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changingFrom: Colin Smale To: tagging@openstreetmap.orgCC: 
On 2019-09-25 16:08, Paul Allen wrote:



In the UK, people can tell that from the area code.

 
What about the cases where calls to customers on the same provider are free? In general you have no way of knowing who is on which provider. And thanks to number portability it is getting shuffled at a few percent a year anyway.
 
 
 
 




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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-09-25 16:08, Paul Allen wrote:

> In the UK, people can tell that from the area code.

What about the cases where calls to customers on the same provider are
free? In general you have no way of knowing who is on which provider.
And thanks to number portability it is getting shuffled at a few percent
a year anyway.___
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 14:30, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:


right, you might be charged differently according to your plan / the kind
> of device you are calling from. There may be also more distinctions (e.g.
> local numbers cheaper),
>

Yep.  All those things and more.  Scott Adams (the Dilbert cartoonist)
jokingly (or perhaps he
wasn't joking) described these things as constituting a "confusopoly."
It's too difficult to figure
out which provider is going to work out cheapest for your particular
pattern of usage, so most
people never switch providers.


> so should we distinguish between the number and the area code? (somehow we
> are doing it with spaces, but it is not applied consistently).
>

I suspect that in those countries where the area code makes a difference to
the charges then
most mappers will apply spaces consistently and where the area code makes
no difference
they may not bother.

What about different numbers which could imply extra costs (or be free),
> shall we use different keys for them?
>

In the UK, people can tell that from the area code.  Except BT did a
mini-confusopoly there and
so we have 0800 and 0808 are freephone, 084 are special rate, 087 are
expensive special
rate, 0900 are arm-and-a-leg expensive special rate.  All with (mainly
grandfathered) exceptions
and qualifiers.  Oh, and 0800/0808 freephone applied only to calls from
landlines until regulations
forcing it upon mobile calls appeared in 2015.  It's messy but
(theoretically) can be determined
solely from the area code.  Except most people can't remember which 08xx
are free and which
08xx are special rate.


> There are no guarantees that this won't change in the future:  Maybe for
>> the better, maybe for the
>> worse.
>>
>
> I wouldn't be too afraid, IMHO it is likely that these 20th century
> billing habits will vanish sooner or later in favor of an all in
> subscription model.
>

Many decades ago, there was no call setup charge for calls from UK
landlines.  And, given the
switch from clunky relays with a shorter life to purely electronic
switching with a longer life I
see no technical justification for one.  It's all about the money.  It's
always about the money.
Similarly, call boxes used to be "put in a certain amount of money to get a
few minutes,"
now you have to put in enough money for an hour, even for a one-minute
call.  It's all about the
money.  It's always about the money.

So there may be harmonization in some of the charges, but it will come at a
cost and most
likely with complexity elsewhere in a bewildering variety of packages
available.  If it suits them
to make a distinction between landline and mobile, that's what they will
do.  It's a distinction
that most people can understand and will accept, whereas having a higher
rate to trombone
around a wide estuary (which used to be the case in the UK decades ago) is
not something
that is easily understood (it was a regional call rather than a local call
because they couldn't
run the lines straight across the estuary, even if they actually could and
did).


> Around here you already get a flat rate towards all Italian and European
> mobiles and landlines (incl. 50GB 4G Internet and SMS) for as low as 8 EUR
> / month. It's more likely you won't bother in the future about the kind of
> phone number you're calling, rather than it could be a costly surprise.
>

Technically, you're right, the actual costs to the operators will be very
similar.  In practice,
people understand that landlines and mobiles are different things and are
more accepting
of price differentials.  If harmonization comes it will be through
legislation, not because the
operators want to serve their customers' best interests.  I think it more
likely that things will
get better rather than worse, but I can't guarantee it.  And that's only
the UK, the situation in
other countries may be very different.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 25. Sept. 2019 um 14:10 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen :

> On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 09:04, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't see the problem, can you explain?
>>
>
> [Note: some simplifications ahead.  Broadly true but there are many
> exceptions in
> reality.]
>
> In the UK, calling rom landlines, calls to mobile numbers are more
> expensive than calls
> to landlines.  These days, not by much but in the past the difference was
> large.  BT's prices are
> a 23p call setup charge then 15p/minute to landlines and 18p/minute to
> mobiles.  Unless you
> have one of their packages that give you free calls to landlines (not even
> a setup charge) but
> 9p/minute to mobiles (with the 23p setup).
>
>

right, you might be charged differently according to your plan / the kind
of device you are calling from. There may be also more distinctions (e.g.
local numbers cheaper), so should we distinguish between the number and the
area code? (somehow we are doing it with spaces, but it is not applied
consistently). What about different numbers which could imply extra costs
(or be free), shall we use different keys for them?





> There are no guarantees that this won't change in the future:  Maybe for
> the better, maybe for the
> worse.
>


I wouldn't be too afraid, IMHO it is likely that these 20th century billing
habits will vanish sooner or later in favor of an all in subscription
model. Around here you already get a flat rate towards all Italian and
European mobiles and landlines (incl. 50GB 4G Internet and SMS) for as low
as 8 EUR / month. It's more likely you won't bother in the future about the
kind of phone number you're calling, rather than it could be a costly
surprise.

 Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Valor Naram]

So we're good to keep `phone:mobile` for mappers who know if the number is a mobile one or landline.We can keep `phone:mobile` for explicit ones where you can say to 100% this is a mobile phone number and will be *generally* charged as such.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor NaramPS: Don't be confused. I do not even bother, if we differenciate between mobile numbers and landlines or not. Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changingFrom: Paul Allen To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 09:04, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:I don't see the problem, can you explain?[Note: some simplifications ahead.  Broadly true but there are many exceptions inreality.]In the UK, calling rom landlines, calls to mobile numbers are more expensive than calls to landlines.  These days, not by much but in the past the difference was large.  BT's prices are a 23p call setup charge then 15p/minute to landlines and 18p/minute to mobiles.  Unless you have one of their packages that give you free calls to landlines (not even a setup charge) but9p/minute to mobiles (with the 23p setup).There are no guarantees that this won't change in the future:  Maybe for the better, maybe for theworse.If you're calling from a mobile phone then the charging situation is complex.  Depending onwhich MNO or MVNO you're using, it may be very complex (although it's not as bad as it usedto be).  Generally it has been the case in the past that if you were calling from a mobile it was cheaper to call another mobile than a landline,  These days there's either no difference orit's small, but that could change.Fortunately, in the UK, mobile numbers start with a 7 and non-mobile numbers do not (otherpotentially-expensive calls have different prefixes).The situation is different elsewhere in the world, of course.  In the US it's the callee, notthe caller, who pays the call charges for calls to mobiles.  Oh the joys of living in a countrywhere you not only get junk advertising calls on your mobile, but you have to pay to receivethem. By the way, this is not about Italy. In Germany [1] and likely in many other places you can also get your landline number on a mobile phone. I'm using a German landline number for almost 20 years on my desktop and for 10 years on my mobile. It is not new technology, and it can be used everywhere, not just in Italy.  Another possibility would be call redirect. No way to tell where a number will be routed to (if you aren't a telco).Number remapping, of one form or another, has been around for a long time.  But 20 years agoit was expensive and rare.  After regulations requiring number portability for mobile ownersswitching between carriers, the technology became cheaper to implement.  I'm not sure if UKcompanies offer anything other than redirection when it comes to terminating a landline on amobile or a mobile on a landline but if they do I'd expect call charges to be appropriate tothe number prefix.So people do find it useful to know if a phone number is to a landline or a mobile.  Less sothan in the past, because the cost difference is smaller, but still useful.  However, in the UKwe can tell by inspecting the number: if it starts with a 7 it's a mobile.  So in the UK we don'tneed a tag to tell us.  This isn't true of all countries: in the US you can't tell if you're callinga landline or a mobile, but you don't care because the person receiving the call is paying.-- Paul
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 25 Sep 2019 at 09:04, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> I don't see the problem, can you explain?
>

[Note: some simplifications ahead.  Broadly true but there are many
exceptions in
reality.]

In the UK, calling rom landlines, calls to mobile numbers are more
expensive than calls
to landlines.  These days, not by much but in the past the difference was
large.  BT's prices are
a 23p call setup charge then 15p/minute to landlines and 18p/minute to
mobiles.  Unless you
have one of their packages that give you free calls to landlines (not even
a setup charge) but
9p/minute to mobiles (with the 23p setup).

There are no guarantees that this won't change in the future:  Maybe for
the better, maybe for the
worse.

If you're calling from a mobile phone then the charging situation is
complex.  Depending on
which MNO or MVNO you're using, it may be very complex (although it's not
as bad as it used
to be).  Generally it has been the case in the past that if you were
calling from a mobile it was
cheaper to call another mobile than a landline,  These days there's either
no difference or
it's small, but that could change.

Fortunately, in the UK, mobile numbers start with a 7 and non-mobile
numbers do not (other
potentially-expensive calls have different prefixes).

The situation is different elsewhere in the world, of course.  In the US
it's the callee, not
the caller, who pays the call charges for calls to mobiles.  Oh the joys of
living in a country
where you not only get junk advertising calls on your mobile, but you have
to pay to receive
them.

By the way, this is not about Italy. In Germany [1] and likely in many
> other places you can also get your landline number on a mobile phone. I'm
> using a German landline number for almost 20 years on my desktop and for 10
> years on my mobile. It is not new technology, and it can be used
> everywhere, not just in Italy.  Another possibility would be call redirect.
> No way to tell where a number will be routed to (if you aren't a telco).
>

Number remapping, of one form or another, has been around for a long time.
But 20 years ago
it was expensive and rare.  After regulations requiring number portability
for mobile owners
switching between carriers, the technology became cheaper to implement.
I'm not sure if UK
companies offer anything other than redirection when it comes to
terminating a landline on a
mobile or a mobile on a landline but if they do I'd expect call charges to
be appropriate to
the number prefix.

So people do find it useful to know if a phone number is to a landline or a
mobile.  Less so
than in the past, because the cost difference is smaller, but still
useful.  However, in the UK
we can tell by inspecting the number: if it starts with a 7 it's a mobile.
So in the UK we don't
need a tag to tell us.  This isn't true of all countries: in the US you
can't tell if you're calling
a landline or a mobile, but you don't care because the person receiving the
call is paying.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 24. Sept. 2019 um 13:17 Uhr schrieb Valor Naram via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org>:

> So the distinction of mobile and landline is a problem. Is there any
> possibility to distinct between landline and mobile also in Italy?



I don't see the problem, can you explain? By the way, this is not about
Italy. In Germany [1] and likely in many other places you can also get your
landline number on a mobile phone. I'm using a German landline number for
almost 20 years on my desktop and for 10 years on my mobile. It is not new
technology, and it can be used everywhere, not just in Italy. Another
possibility would be call redirect. No way to tell where a number will be
routed to (if you aren't a telco).
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Also you can text message (SMS) a mobile phone, but not a landline, in
most cases. But perhaps this could be better distinguished with a
different tag?

On 9/25/19, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> Some people are still paranoid about not ringing mobiles as it will "cost
> too much".
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 at 22:05, Colin Smale  wrote:
>
>> On 2019-09-24 13:15, Valor Naram via Tagging wrote:
>>
>> So the distinction of mobile and landline is a problem. Is there any
>> possibility to distinct between landline and mobile also in Italy?
>>
>> I don't understand why it would be necessary to make that distinction.
>> What I want to know, is which number do I use to contact "party X".
>> Nobody
>> knows or cares these days which physical telephone rings when you dial a
>> number.
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>

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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Some people are still paranoid about not ringing mobiles as it will "cost
too much".

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 24 Sep 2019 at 22:05, Colin Smale  wrote:

> On 2019-09-24 13:15, Valor Naram via Tagging wrote:
>
> So the distinction of mobile and landline is a problem. Is there any
> possibility to distinct between landline and mobile also in Italy?
>
> I don't understand why it would be necessary to make that distinction.
> What I want to know, is which number do I use to contact "party X". Nobody
> knows or cares these days which physical telephone rings when you dial a
> number.
>
>
> ___
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> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-09-24 13:15, Valor Naram via Tagging wrote:

> So the distinction of mobile and landline is a problem. Is there any 
> possibility to distinct between landline and mobile also in Italy?

I don't understand why it would be necessary to make that distinction.
What I want to know, is which number do I use to contact "party X".
Nobody knows or cares these days which physical telephone rings when you
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Valor Naram via Tagging]

So the distinction of mobile and landline is a problem. Is there any possibility to distinct between landline and mobile also in Italy?CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changingFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: sent from a phone> On 23. Sep 2019, at 16:19, Volker Schmidt  wrote:> > Here in Italy you may dial a number that looks like a landline but is in reality a mobile number.> I would very much prefer a list of numbers, and not have to do tricks like phone_1, phone_2 ... but also not to have to specify if a number is mobile or landline.+1,with phone numbers you can currently still see how it used to work in the analog times (e.g. shops in the same area still have mostly the same initial local digits), but these are clearly traces of the past that will sooner or later vanish, with modern equipment you can have (at least theoretically) any number routed anywhere. For example SIP based phone numbers often look like local numbers of a specific area, but in fact are routed via the internet and the actually connected device could be anywhere on earth.Cheers Martin ___Tagging mailing listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 23. Sep 2019, at 16:19, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> Here in Italy you may dial a number that looks like a landline but is in 
> reality a mobile number.
> I would very much prefer a list of numbers, and not have to do tricks like 
> phone_1, phone_2 ... but also not to have to specify if a number is mobile or 
> landline.


+1,
with phone numbers you can currently still see how it used to work in the 
analog times (e.g. shops in the same area still have mostly the same initial 
local digits), but these are clearly traces of the past that will sooner or 
later vanish, with modern equipment you can have (at least theoretically) any 
number routed anywhere. For example SIP based phone numbers often look like 
local numbers of a specific area, but in fact are routed via the internet and 
the actually connected device could be anywhere on earth.

Cheers Martin 



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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 23 Sep 2019 at 15:12, websi...@posteo.de  wrote:

In my eyes even contact:website=* is not necessarily illogical as many
> websites provide means to get in contact with the POI.
>

Assuming you mean a contact form, as opposed to a web page giving phone
number,
e-mail address, and maybe physical address, then I'd suggest contact:url=*
would be
better.  I probably wouldn't use it myself, just give a website=* in most
cases, but if I
did come across a case where it would be useful then I'd use contact:url not
contact:website.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Volker Schmidt]

Distinction between landline and mobile is technical, and often not clear.
You cannot always distinguish mobile numbers form landline numbers by their
numbering scheme.
In the US here is no distinction as far as I am aware anyway.
Here in Italy you may dial a number that looks like a landline but is in
reality a mobile number.
I would very much prefer a list of numbers, and not have to do tricks like
phone_1, phone_2 ... but also not to have to specify if a number is mobile
or landline.


Virus-free.
www.avast.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Mon, 23 Sep 2019 at 16:12, websi...@posteo.de  wrote:

> As a heavy user of the contact:*=* scheme I do not see an advantage to
> mark it as deprecated.
>
> At least not as long as we do not have a proper way to tag multiple
> kinds of phone numbers and are dealing with non-sense like phone_2=*,
> phone_3=* etc automatically generated by the iD editor.
>
> One frequent use case I run into is the distinction of landline phone
> numbers and mobile phone numbers. The latter can be tagged by using
> contact:mobile=* which is also properly used by data users like OsmAnd.
> In my eyes even contact:website=* is not necessarily illogical as many
> websites provide means to get in contact with the POI.
>
> All the best,
>
> highflyer74
>
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[websi...@posteo.de]

As a heavy user of the contact:*=* scheme I do not see an advantage to
mark it as deprecated.

At least not as long as we do not have a proper way to tag multiple
kinds of phone numbers and are dealing with non-sense like phone_2=*,
phone_3=* etc automatically generated by the iD editor.

One frequent use case I run into is the distinction of landline phone
numbers and mobile phone numbers. The latter can be tagged by using
contact:mobile=* which is also properly used by data users like OsmAnd.
In my eyes even contact:website=* is not necessarily illogical as many
websites provide means to get in contact with the POI.

All the best,

highflyer74

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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Tim Magee]

On Saturday, September 21, 2019 2:49:28 PM EDT Valor Naram via Tagging wrote:
> I want to change the wiki page
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
> to do certain things:
>   - Deprecating `contact:phone`
I disagree with this idea. I believe that contact:phone is superior to phone. 
This way, all contact information is in its own namespace rather than being 
top level tags. Even though currently the prefixed contact* tags are in the 
minority, I believe that long term they are better. 
>   - Promoting `phone`
>   - Extending `phone`
I would propose that rather we extend contact:phone. 

> But before I do that, I will hear your voices. I included a Markdown
> file with this e-mail and want to know what you think. 
I think that adding country tagged phone numbers seems like a good idea. As 
does phone:emergency. I think phone:night and phone:press are getting too off 
topic (so I wouldn't tag them).


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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Andy Townsend]

On 22/09/2019 11:20, Andy Mabbett wrote:

On Sat, 21 Sep 2019 at 19:49, Valor Naram via Tagging
 wrote:


I want to change the wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
to do certain things:
   - Protecting the wiki page against "wild changes"

We generally do not protect Wiki pages unless they are the target of
persistent or egregious vandalism.


Well, sort-of - what tends to happen is that pages that "really 
shouldn't be modified" tend to get moved elsewhere. 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy is an example of 
that.  There are some things that OSM's wiki really isn't the 
appropriate place for.


Best Regards,

Andy

PS: For the avoidance of doubt I'm not suggesting that such a move would 
make sense here.




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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Andy Mabbett]

On Sat, 21 Sep 2019 at 19:49, Valor Naram via Tagging
 wrote:

> I want to change the wiki page
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
> to do certain things:

>   - Protecting the wiki page against "wild changes"

We generally do not protect Wiki pages unless they are the target of
persistent or egregious vandalism.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Valor Naram via Tagging]

> What about the other less frequently used duplicates contact:website, contact:email and contact:fax? Wouldn't it make more sense to deprecate them all instead of just one?At least `contact:email` will come. I prefer to work step for step.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changingFrom: Markus To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: On Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 20:51 Valor Naram via Tagging,  wrote:I want to change the wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
to do certain things:
  - Deprecating `contact:phone`What about the other less frequently used duplicates contact:website, contact:email and contact:fax? Wouldn't it make more sense to deprecate them all instead of just one?Is there a possibility to use Markdown in our wikiNone that i know of.or to convert Markdown into
wiki formatting?https://pandoc.org, according to its homepage, but i've not tried it myself.Regards,Markus

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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Markus]

On Sat, 21 Sep 2019, 20:51 Valor Naram via Tagging, <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> I want to change the wiki page
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
> to do certain things:
>   - Deprecating `contact:phone`
>

What about the other less frequently used
duplicates contact:website, contact:email and contact:fax? Wouldn't it make
more sense to deprecate them all instead of just one?

Is there a possibility to use Markdown in our wiki


None that i know of.

or to convert Markdown into
> wiki formatting?
>

https://pandoc.org, according to its homepage, but i've not tried it myself.

Regards,
Markus

>
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Re: [Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Mateusz Konieczny]

21 Sep 2019, 20:49 by tagging@openstreetmap.org:

> I want to change the wiki page
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
> to do certain things:
>  - Deprecating `contact:phone`
>  - Promoting `phone`
>  - Extending `phone`
>  - Protecting the wiki page against "wild changes"
>
I would strongly recommend proposing
this changes separately.

Otherwise person against just one 
change will be forced to be against
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[Tagging] [Key:phone] - Suggesting wiki page changing

[Valor Naram via Tagging]

I want to change the wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:phone throw a Proposal process
to do certain things:
  - Deprecating `contact:phone`
  - Promoting `phone`
  - Extending `phone`
  - Protecting the wiki page against "wild changes" in the interest of
the community (to maintain a consistent use of `phone` because as one
of the most used keys on OSM we cannot use `phone` differently or not
following the specification at all. We simply cannot do that because
apps working this that key need a consistent tagging scheme.)

But before I do that, I will hear your voices. I included a Markdown
file with this e-mail and want to know what you think. Is there a
possibility to use Markdown in our wiki or to convert Markdown into
wiki formatting?

Cheerio

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram
# Usage

## Format of phone numbers

Phone numbers should be always in the following format ([ITU-T E.123](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.123 "wikipedia:E.123") and [DIN 5008](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/de:DIN_5008 "wikipedia:de:DIN 5008")):

+  

or ([RFC 3966](https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3966.txt)/[NANP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NANP "wikipedia:NANP"))

+--

Both in [ITU-T E.164](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.164) format

## Usage

| Key   | Description| Example   | Notes   |
| - | -- | - | --- |
| `phone`   | Put in the phone number under which the facility which runs that POI can be contacted  | `phone=+49 3316 769689`   | |
| `phone:press` | Phone number for press inquiries   | `phone=+49 3316 76968901` | |
| `phone:night` | Phone number to be called at night (local time of the place the facility is in)| `phone=+49 157 3929054`   | |
| `phone:emergency` | Phone number to be called in case of emergency | `phone=+49 157 3929054`   | |
| `phone:`| Phone number to be called just from a person who lives or has a stay in  (country). Please ommit the country code in the phone number when the number can only be called from within that country specified in ``. | `phone:FR=+33 6 12654478` or `phone:BE=+32 5753 6245` | See the _Tagging different numbers for different countries_ section for better explanation. |
| `phone::mobile` | Mobile phone number to be called from a person who lives or has a stay in (country). Please ommit the ``when the number can only be called from within that country specified in ``. | `phone:FR:mobile=3000`| See the _Tagging different numbers for different countries_ section for better explanation. |

### Subkeys

This tagging supports the use of subkeys. Subkeys are in the following format:

phone:

For Example:

phone:press

| Subkey   | Description  | Example   | Notes |
|  |