Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
On 2020-01-07 08:27, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: 6 Jan 2020, 16:35 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: sent from a phone On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen wrote: Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South America" - this is an example of English imperialism. This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not something that is widely felt. regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning that English is in widespread use because of imperialism. Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons for an international communication is usually not imperialism. I am also not a fan of blaming history for the current situation and taking the long road because you don't like that history. It would mean that I couldn't speak dutch with my Surinam friends just because 400 years ago the ideas of how we should conduct ourselves were different. That is just counterproductive. Regards, Maarten ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
6 Jan 2020, 16:35 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: > > > sent from a phone > >> On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen wrote: >> >>> Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South >>> America" - this is an example of English imperialism. >>> >> >> This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not something that >> is widely felt. >> > > > > regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning that English > is in widespread use because of imperialism. > Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons for an international communication is usually not imperialism. I can try to communicate with group of people from different countries in Polish, Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto. But except rare cases using English is likely to result in more efficient communication.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
sent from a phone > On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen wrote: > >> Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South >> America" - this is an example of English imperialism. > > This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not something that > is widely felt. regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning that English is in widespread use because of imperialism. We’re all used to it (at least in the western world) and internet and the tech economy have further diffused its use, so currently it is the defacto standard for most international contexts (in other regions and for some specific context it may be Russian or Chinese, Spanish, French etc. all mostly because of imperialism). Not sure this has to be discussed, in OpenStreetMap we’re trying to represent the current state of things, rather than trying to campaign for a state we would prefer (with the exception of Crimea, which is this, an exception, simply because last year the majority of the 5 people that made up the board wasn’t interested in seeing a bigger picture or striving for consistency). English is (shortly before Chinese) the language which most people in the world are able to understand, so there is good reason for using it in international context as a fallback. As OpenStreetMap is not popular in China (AFAIK it’s even forbidden to use it), the logical alternative IMHO isn’t relevant for our context. Esperanto, which you personally seem to prefer, and which is around for 133 years, is only understood by, with most favorable estimates, 2 Million people (compared to billions for English) and while remaining susceptible for criticism of eurocentrism similar to English and not being “neutral” in any way, it is completely artificial so that the “names” in Esperanto are used by nobody. Choosing Esperanto would be a loose-loose situation, from my point of view. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 at 06:29, Maarten Deen wrote: > > I vote against it, if not only because your stance on this is flawed, > but also because this might remove correct and valuable information. > +1 -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
On 2020-01-05 23:25, Tomek wrote: EN (automatic translation) I plan to remove the "name" and "wikipedia" tags from places that are not associated with a specific nation or language: * continents * north and south poles * seas and bays, but exceptionally leaving the "name" tag for seas with a maximum of two (or three) languages of neighboring countries, so for example "Белое море" will not change. The purpose of this edition is to make the OSM map more neutral and not humiliate people from any country. There is no reason for the Humiliation is your own feeling. I am not British or American and I am not humiliated (or have any negative feelings) when I see such a tag. Can you explain also what this fixes? If any rendering engine wants to render a name and the name tag is not present, it will want to revert to another name. That may be name:en. That probably will not be to your liking, so will you then also remove the name:en tag? Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South America" - this is an example of English imperialism. This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not something that is widely felt. Any data will not be lost - programs will be able to extract the desired name from the tags name:en, name:pl, etc., Wikipedia links will be available via Wikidata. Please support (vote) my proposal or write a reason why not. I vote against it, if not only because your stance on this is flawed, but also because this might remove correct and valuable information. Regards, Maarten ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
W dniu 20-01-06 o 02:25, stevea pisze: > It's easy to goof things up and we shouldn't. EO Pardonu, mi ne estas provokisto, mi ne kondutas malserioze. Mi skribas en mia lingvo (pola) en internacia lingvo (Esperanto) kaj iam en via lingvo (angla), kial vi ne estimas min kaj ne parolas en mia lingvo? Bonvolu koncentriĝu pri solvi la problemon pri nomoj. PL Przepraszam, nie jestem jakimś prowokatorem, nie wygłupiam się. Piszę w moim języku (polskim) w języku międzynarodowym (Esperanto) i czasami w Twoim (angielskim), dlaczego Ty nie piszesz w moim języku? Proszę skoncentrować się na rozwiązaniu problemu nazw. EN I'm sorry, I'm not some kind of provocateur, I'm not fooling around. I write in my (Polish) language in the international language (Esperanto) and sometimes in your (English), why don't you write in my language? Please focus on resolving the name problem. <> signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
EO Ĉu tiu ĉi dissendolisto estas nur por anglalingvanoj aŭ por ĉiuj homoj? Angla lingvo estis populara nur pro ekonomia potenco de Usono dum la 20-jarcento. Nuntempe estas la jaro 2020, ĉiu povas uzi elektronikan tradukilon: PL Czy ta lista dyskusyjna jest tylko dla anglików, czy też dla wszystkich? Angielski był popularny tylko z powodu potęgi ekonomicznej USA w XX wieku. Obecnie mamy rok 2020, każdy może skorzystać z elektronicznego tłumacza: EN Whether this mailing list is only for English speakers or for all people? English language was popular only because of the economic power of the United states during the 20th-century. Currently is the year 2020, everyone can use an electronic compiler: https://translate.google.pl/ https://www.bing.com/translator/ https://translate.yandex.com/ https://www.deepl.com/translator W dniu 20-01-06 o 01:33, stevea pisze: > My grandfather was born in Poland and I grew up hearing and speaking Polish, > and I was a founding member of the University of California, Santa Cruz' > Esperanto Club (a long time ago). > > But, as others have said, (and English is my native language), this IS an > English-language "channel." > > May we please see posts in English (any dialect) here, please? That is, if > you wish them (widely) read, here. > > SteveA > California <> signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
5 Jan 2020, 23:25 by to...@disroot.org: > > I plan to remove the "name" and "wikipedia" tags fromplaces that > are not associated with a specific nation orlanguage > This would be unacceptable damage, for reasons already discussed. > Wikipedia links will be available via Wikidata. > Removing human readable tags is a horrible idea, and yelling about imperialism is not a good argument. > > Please support (vote) my proposal or write a reasonwhy not. > I recommend familiarizing yourself with requirements for automatic edits. Automatic edits violating them can be reverted by anyone, at any time.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
