Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways
2013/1/6 Werner Hoch werner...@gmx.de I am wondering what current best practice is. Should name be applied to both component ways and relation, or is application of name to relation sufficient. For waterways, adding one name to ways and all names to the relation is at least useful. Longer waterways (rivers) sometimes do not have the same name over the complete length, because they flow across different countries. e.g. The Danube river: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/89652 The Danube river doesn't change name: it only gets translated to the local language. Ciao, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways
Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com wrote: 2013/1/6 Werner Hoch werner...@gmx.de I am wondering what current best practice is. Should name be applied to both component ways and relation, or is application of name to relation sufficient. For waterways, adding one name to ways and all names to the relation is at least useful. Longer waterways (rivers) sometimes do not have the same name over the complete length, because they flow across different countries. e.g. The Danube river: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/89652 The Danube river doesn't change name: it only gets translated to the local language. Ciao, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Some river name differences aren't a matter of translation. The river that divides the US state of Texas from Mexico is known as the Rio Grande (Spanish for Big River) in the United States, and as Rio Bravo or Rio Bravo del Norte (Spanish for Wild River of the North) in Mexico. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways
Am Sonntag, den 06.01.2013, 16:43 -0600 schrieb Toby Murray: On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Werner Hoch werner...@gmx.de wrote: AFAIR there's currently no relation type that inherits it's tags to the member ways, so that the name tags are rendered on the map. Relations with type=multipolygon render the name tag on the map. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1530467 Yeah, missed that, but the multipolygon is just a different way to define Area elements. see: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Area It just uses the OSM Relation data type to achive this. Road routes do not inherit there ref tags to the highways, associatedStreets do not inherit there street name to the highway segments. Those relations use duplicate tags, too. There are efforts to render highway shields in the US based on network and ref tags of highways. That sounds interesting, please let us know, when this gets deployed to the map. Regards Werner ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways
Hello, Am 04.01.2013 14:43, schrieb dies38...@mypacks.net: I recently created a waterway where I put the name of the waterway on the relation but not on the component ways which are grouped by the relation. To me, not duplicating data would seem to be the better overall practice, and duplication of well, it's one acceptable perception to enter the data into a 'relational' database - opposite to the 'keep it simple on every way' perception. But why do you duplicate the tag waterway=river on every way then ...? Regards Georg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways
...why do you duplicate the tag waterway=river on every way Because the relation can contain more than simply the waterway. For instance, one could add the riverbank, islets, and slips if one were so inclined. By letting each component way retain an identity of what it is, the relation grouping takes on the purpose of telling what it's called, it being the variety of component types which make up the thing called Tappahanna Ditch. I just haven't added any of the extra things (chief being the riverbank) to the relation (and likely never will). --ceyockey -Original Message- From: Georg Feddern o...@bavarianmallet.de Sent: Jan 6, 2013 11:30 AM To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways Hello, Am 04.01.2013 14:43, schrieb dies38...@mypacks.net: I recently created a waterway where I put the name of the waterway on the relation but not on the component ways which are grouped by the relation. To me, not duplicating data would seem to be the better overall practice, and duplication of well, it's one acceptable perception to enter the data into a 'relational' database - opposite to the 'keep it simple on every way' perception. But why do you duplicate the tag waterway=river on every way then ...? Regards Georg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways
Hi ceyockey, Am Freitag, den 04.01.2013, 08:43 -0500 schrieb dies38...@mypacks.net: I recently created a waterway where I put the name of the waterway on the relation but not on the component ways which are grouped by the relation. This results in the name of the waterway not appearing in the standard Map view. AFAIR there's currently no relation type that inherits it's tags to the member ways, so that the name tags are rendered on the map. Road routes do not inherit there ref tags to the highways, associatedStreets do not inherit there street name to the highway segments. Those relations use duplicate tags, too. There's only one rarely used concept of tag inheritance: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:multilinestring that is AFAIR not supported by the renderers. I am wondering what current best practice is. Should name be applied to both component ways and relation, or is application of name to relation sufficient. For waterways, adding one name to ways and all names to the relation is at least useful. Longer waterways (rivers) sometimes do not have the same name over the complete length, because they flow across different countries. e.g. The Danube river: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/89652 To me, not duplicating data would seem to be the better overall practice, and duplication of name on relation and component ways would seem to be a case of tagging-for-the-renderer. IMHO, redundancy is not always a bad thing. Just do not add too much. (p.s. the waterway in question = http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2676618) For that short waterway it wouldn't create a waterway relation [1], as the benefits of the extra relation are low. * no international names required * no wikipedia reference * the waterway has the same name on all segments. * no gnis reference tag, ... [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:waterway Regards Werner (werner2101) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways
Thanks for the several comments from people. I decided to remove the relation and name each component way individually. I referred to this conversation in the changeset meta-data (source and source_ref). Regards --ceyockey. -Original Message- From: Werner Hoch werner...@gmx.de Sent: Jan 6, 2013 4:54 PM To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways Hi ceyockey, Am Freitag, den 04.01.2013, 08:43 -0500 schrieb dies38...@mypacks.net: I recently created a waterway where I put the name of the waterway on the relation but not on the component ways which are grouped by the relation. This results in the name of the waterway not appearing in the standard Map view. AFAIR there's currently no relation type that inherits it's tags to the member ways, so that the name tags are rendered on the map. Road routes do not inherit there ref tags to the highways, associatedStreets do not inherit there street name to the highway segments. Those relations use duplicate tags, too. There's only one rarely used concept of tag inheritance: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:multilinestring that is AFAIR not supported by the renderers. I am wondering what current best practice is. Should name be applied to both component ways and relation, or is application of name to relation sufficient. For waterways, adding one name to ways and all names to the relation is at least useful. Longer waterways (rivers) sometimes do not have the same name over the complete length, because they flow across different countries. e.g. The Danube river: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/89652 To me, not duplicating data would seem to be the better overall practice, and duplication of name on relation and component ways would seem to be a case of tagging-for-the-renderer. IMHO, redundancy is not always a bad thing. Just do not add too much. (p.s. the waterway in question = http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2676618) For that short waterway it wouldn't create a waterway relation [1], as the benefits of the extra relation are low. * no international names required * no wikipedia reference * the waterway has the same name on all segments. * no gnis reference tag, ... [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:waterway Regards Werner (werner2101) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways
On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Werner Hoch werner...@gmx.de wrote: AFAIR there's currently no relation type that inherits it's tags to the member ways, so that the name tags are rendered on the map. Relations with type=multipolygon render the name tag on the map. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1530467 Road routes do not inherit there ref tags to the highways, associatedStreets do not inherit there street name to the highway segments. Those relations use duplicate tags, too. There are efforts to render highway shields in the US based on network and ref tags of highways. Toby ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways
On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 5:47 AM, SomeoneElse li...@mail.atownsend.org.uk wrote: dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: The waterway segments I collected into the relation are exactly analogous to roadway segments collected into a route relation. I do not think that the relation I created constitutes a category, really. --ceyockey The main reason why route relations are needed in the US is because a particular piece of road can belong to more than one toute. This isn't true everywhere (for example in the UK - routes can disappear and then pop up again elsewhere). Does your waterway route consist of any ways that belong to more than one waterway route? Large river tagging is kind of a mess so I'm not quite sure where I stand on this. But we also use relations to map lakes that are too big to be mapped with a single way because of the 2,000 node limit. It seems like rivers are in a similar situation and the use of a relation does not seem completely out of place. It allows one real world object to be represented by one object in OSM and reduces duplication of tags on component ways. Toby Toby ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways
Thanks -- the rationale embodied in the sentence quoted from Toby Murray below was what drove me to use a relation: It allows one real world object to be represented by one object in OSM and reduces duplication of tags on component ways. --ceyockey -Original Message- From: Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com Sent: Jan 5, 2013 1:17 PM To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways Large river tagging is kind of a mess so I'm not quite sure where I stand on this. But we also use relations to map lakes that are too big to be mapped with a single way because of the 2,000 node limit. It seems like rivers are in a similar situation and the use of a relation does not seem completely out of place. It allows one real world object to be represented by one object in OSM and reduces duplication of tags on component ways. Toby ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways
Hello -- I recently created a waterway where I put the name of the waterway on the relation but not on the component ways which are grouped by the relation. This results in the name of the waterway not appearing in the standard Map view. I am wondering what current best practice is. Should name be applied to both component ways and relation, or is application of name to relation sufficient. To me, not duplicating data would seem to be the better overall practice, and duplication of name on relation and component ways would seem to be a case of tagging-for-the-renderer. Thanks for your input. --ceyockey (p.s. the waterway in question = http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2676618 ) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways
The waterway segments I collected into the relation are exactly analogous to roadway segments collected into a route relation. I do not think that the relation I created constitutes a category, really. --ceyockey -Original Message- From: Chris66 chris66...@gmx.de Sent: Jan 4, 2013 4:38 PM To: tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] Names on relations and not component ways Am 04.01.2013 14:43, schrieb ceyockey: Hello -- I recently created a waterway where I put the name of the waterway on the relation but not on the component ways which are grouped by the relation. This results in the name of the waterway not appearing in the standard Map view. I am wondering what current best practice is. Should name be applied to both component ways and relation, or is application of name to relation sufficient. To me, not duplicating data would seem to be the better overall practice, and duplication of name on relation and component ways would seem to be a case of tagging-for-the-renderer. Thanks for your input. (p.s. the waterway in question = http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2676618) In my opinion the relation is unnecessary. See also: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Relations_are_not_Categories Chris ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
