Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Jérôme Seigneuret]

This subject look like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Trademarks

Names are not only trademarks but same rules are applied. We have to
contextualize.



Le lun. 30 déc. 2019 à 13:57, Paul Allen  a écrit :

> On Mon, 30 Dec 2019 at 07:05, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>
>> > That said, on the ALDI UK website, only the logo depicts "ALDI."
>> Everywhere
>> > else on the page that the company name is rendered as ordinary text it
>> is "Aldi."
>>
>> But the German sites (https://aldi.de/ and
>> https://www.aldi-nord.de/unternehmen/verantwortung.html) seem to use
>> ALDI (or ALDI Nord) all over.
>>
>
> So they do.  One way of handling this would be to use "Aldi" in the UK and
> "ALDI" in Germany.  Preferably have editor presets smart enough to offer
> all three as "Aldi (UK)", "ALDI (DE)" and "ALDI Nord."  Another way of
> handling it
> would be to have edit wars as people in each country try to fix the
> "errors" in
> the other country.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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-- 
Cordialement,
Jérôme Seigneuret
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 30 Dec 2019 at 07:05, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> > That said, on the ALDI UK website, only the logo depicts "ALDI."
> Everywhere
> > else on the page that the company name is rendered as ordinary text it
> is "Aldi."
>
> But the German sites (https://aldi.de/ and
> https://www.aldi-nord.de/unternehmen/verantwortung.html) seem to use
> ALDI (or ALDI Nord) all over.
>

So they do.  One way of handling this would be to use "Aldi" in the UK and
"ALDI" in Germany.  Preferably have editor presets smart enough to offer
all three as "Aldi (UK)", "ALDI (DE)" and "ALDI Nord."  Another way of
handling it
would be to have edit wars as people in each country try to fix the
"errors" in
the other country.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Marc Gemis]

> That said, on the ALDI UK website, only the logo depicts "ALDI."  Everywhere
> else on the page that the company name is rendered as ordinary text it is 
> "Aldi."

But the German sites (https://aldi.de/ and
https://www.aldi-nord.de/unternehmen/verantwortung.html) seem to use
ALDI (or ALDI Nord) all over.

m.

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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 30 Dec 2019 at 00:02, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:

> I think this comes down to OSM's "use the commonly used name"
> guideline (or "common usage" guideline) which I don't think has ever
> been firmly defined. As I understand it's always been on a "you know
> when you see it" basis, and exceptions and rules established one by
> one.
>

+1

 We have to keep in mind that as I understand it, BBC's
> editorial policy is to title-case names or acronyms that are
> pronounced as a word rather than spelled out in letters (so "Nato" and
> not "NATO" because they don't say "enn-eh-tee-oh"), but perhaps that's
> a decent guideline for brands anyway.
>

Years ago, acronyms were left in upper case until they'd become accepted as
common words.  So, eventually, "radar" and "laser."  Unless those were
acronyms of proper names, when they retained upper case.

My impression is that the BBC avoids all-caps whether it's an acronym or
an initialism.  The only exception they make is for their own name.  The BBC
appears to be more concerned with appearance (with least effort) than
correctness.

Appearance is of concern in long runs of text.  All-caps STANDS OUT too
much.  Which was why, sometimes, small caps was used, but that also doesn't
look good.  Good typographers would often switch to all-caps in a smaller
size,
LIKE THIS (maybe, depending what your mail client does).  That's too much
effort,
these days, so people (even the BBC) use Aldi rather than ALDI or ALDI.

Shop/business names on a map are NOT long runs of text where a word in
all-caps
or small-caps causes a visual clash with adjacent words.  It's not a
problem to have
ALDI or TESCO on a map.  We don't need some way of switching to small caps
or a smaller typeface because there isn't going to be a visual clash that
requires
those things.

That said, on the ALDI UK website, only the logo depicts "ALDI."
Everywhere
else on the page that the company name is rendered as ordinary text it is
"Aldi."

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Jarek Piórkowski]

On Sun, 29 Dec 2019 at 16:24, bkil  wrote:
> We had the same argument over a local mailing list and another idea came up: 
> some of the signage you see and many of their own website use the given 
> capitalization for stylistic purposes. But the question remains: why isn't a 
> map using stylistic capitalization? Or as some others do, why isn't 
> OpenStreetMap using it?
>
> The signs, official company registry documents, websites, receipt, press 
> releases, newspapers and Wikipedia sometimes contradict (Wikipedia 
> notoriously even within itself, so don't use that as a reference), while at 
> other times the mostly match. What do you think about these?

I think this comes down to OSM's "use the commonly used name"
guideline (or "common usage" guideline) which I don't think has ever
been firmly defined. As I understand it's always been on a "you know
when you see it" basis, and exceptions and rules established one by
one.

We can now fairly easily find how internet news sources refer to
brands and that can be another indication.

For the ALDI example, a search for "site:bbc.co.uk ALDI" suggests that
BBC's usage is usually "Aldi". A search for "site:rbb24.de ALDI" (RBB
is a local German public broadcaster) suggests that they also usually
use "Aldi". We have to keep in mind that as I understand it, BBC's
editorial policy is to title-case names or acronyms that are
pronounced as a word rather than spelled out in letters (so "Nato" and
not "NATO" because they don't say "enn-eh-tee-oh"), but perhaps that's
a decent guideline for brands anyway.

I would also vote for title-casing Tesco, though I was only in London
for a couple of years so I can't claim nativity.

Of my local Ontario brands, things like CIBC, TD, LCBO are always
uppercased and spelled out in letters (they are initially acronyms) -
I would ignore and fight any decree to title-case them. A less
clear-up example I came across when Osmose complained was "DECIEM", I
eventually title-cased it since it seemed to me a stylistic uppercase.
Things like "LASIK MD" are debatable and perhaps change over time
(much as radar was once a Serious Uppercase Acronym). I would lean
towards leaving all-uppercase other brands that are spelled out in
letters, like KFC, but there's iffier cases like "RW" where
"RW" also looks okay to me.

I do think that brand tagging could be a useful cop-out here. Let the
brand tag be whatever the brand desires (or whatever the Wikidata
entry is) and leave the name tag for the name commonly used by people
rather than corporations.

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[marc marc]

Le 29.12.19 à 22:23, bkil a écrit :
> What do you think about these?

if the value is an abbreviation, then it's a short_name (but brand
doesn't have a short_brand key, in this case it's normal to put the
abbreviation in uppercase in brand=*)

if the value is not an abbreviation, I will use the usual (first letter
in upper case, the others in lower case)
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[bkil]

I find it amusing that some of the other big map providers have chosen a
different "canonical" capitalization of the same trademarks. So they either
are not canonical after all, or we misunderstood the meaning of the name=*
key all along. I think when deciding such issues, we would need to share an
established path of reasoning and/or reliable references.

We had the same argument over a local mailing list and another idea came
up: some of the signage you see and many of their own website use the given
capitalization for stylistic purposes. But the question remains: why isn't
a map using stylistic capitalization? Or as some others do, why isn't
OpenStreetMap using it?

The signs, official company registry documents, websites, receipt, press
releases, newspapers and Wikipedia sometimes contradict (Wikipedia
notoriously even within itself, so don't use that as a reference), while at
other times the mostly match. What do you think about these?

ALDI:
Albrecht-Diskont
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldi#History

Lidl:
Ludwig Lidl
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidl#History

SPAR, SPAR express, DESPAR, etc.:
Door Eendrachtig Samenwerken Profiteren Allen Regelmatig
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spar_(retailer)#Etymology

Obi:
"the name goes back to the French pronunciation of the word hobby"
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obi_(Baumarkt)#Geschichte

TESCO:
"the initials of the supplier's name (TES), and the first two letters of
his surname (CO)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesco#Origins


On Mon, Dec 16, 2019 at 9:36 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 15. Dec 2019, at 19:26, Markus  wrote:
> >
> > If we enter names exactly as they appear on signs, we would have to
> > change all place names to all caps in Italy, France and likely in
> > other countries too.
>
>
>
> as a general rule, all names exactly as they appear on signs does not
> work. Name is the common name as decided by the mapper and according to the
> conventions we have set up (e.g. generally no abbreviations, unless the
> name itself is an abbreviation, like AT etc.)
> It can still make sense to have a dedicated tag for the name as it is sign
> posted (e.g. there are occasionally typos on signs, and for people that
> don’t know the situation it could be useful to have this information for
> orienteering on the ground), just like we have official_name for cases
> where the common name is different (and a variety of tags for alternative
> names).
> Apparently, name:signed is the most common tag (if I didn’t miss
> something) with currently 551 uses.
>
> For example there can be different name versions on different signs for
> the same feature (e.g. abbreviated and not street names), and even errors
> /typos on signs can occur.
>
> Cheers Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Dec 2019, at 19:26, Markus  wrote:
> 
> If we enter names exactly as they appear on signs, we would have to
> change all place names to all caps in Italy, France and likely in
> other countries too.



as a general rule, all names exactly as they appear on signs does not work. 
Name is the common name as decided by the mapper and according to the 
conventions we have set up (e.g. generally no abbreviations, unless the name 
itself is an abbreviation, like AT etc.)
It can still make sense to have a dedicated tag for the name as it is sign 
posted (e.g. there are occasionally typos on signs, and for people that don’t 
know the situation it could be useful to have this information for orienteering 
on the ground), just like we have official_name for cases where the common name 
is different (and a variety of tags for alternative names).
Apparently, name:signed is the most common tag (if I didn’t miss something) 
with currently 551 uses.

For example there can be different name versions on different signs for the 
same feature (e.g. abbreviated and not street names), and even errors /typos on 
signs can occur.

Cheers Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Markus]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 21:30, Clifford Snow  wrote:
>
> I would favor adding the name exactly as it appears in a sign, even including 
> punctuation marks if it's in their sign. [...]
>
> Newspapers have a different reason for changing case and even dropping 
> punctuation marks, readability. OSM is interested in capturing ground truth.

If we enter names exactly as they appear on signs, we would have to
change all place names to all caps in Italy, France and likely in
other countries too. But ground truth would also mean that in one and
the same city, some street names would be in normal case, others in
all caps and some in historical spellings not used anymore.

Regarding business names, in the city i live, approximately 50% of
shop names that aren't acronyms are written in all caps on the signs.
However, i could only find two that write their name in all caps in
running text on their homepage and only one with all caps in its
official business name.

Note also that some logos can't be recorded in text-only, because they
use non-Unicode characters (examples [1] [2] [3]) or because the text
is mirrored, compressed or otherwise graphically altered (examples [4]
[5] [6]).

[1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Royal_Dutch_Shell.svg
[2]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Apple_logo_black.svg
[3]: 
https://gatewayjuniorstorage.blob.core.windows.net/images/R_Logo_7ce3031b-4210-443f-bbeb-25666c95299a.png
[4]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Desigual.svg
[5]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Coop.svg
[6]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bernmobil_Logo.svg

A logo is a graphical element, not a name.

> For example AT AT at one time was an abbreviation for American Telephone 
> & Telegraph but they dropped the full name for AT sometime back. It 
> technically isn't an acronym anymore.

Former acronyms are usually still written in all caps. Besides, AT
is still pronounced /eɪ tiː ənd tiː/.

> TCBY (The Countries Best Yogurt) is a yogurt shop that is widely recognized 
> in the US. If you wrote Tcyb, I doubt most people would even recognize it. If 
> written out, The Countries Best Yogurt, people probably would recognize it 
> either. See https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2304474733 for an example.

TCBY is an acronym, therefore it should of course be written in all caps.

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 22:16, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> I agree, there are some more  examples like IBM and BP. The capitalization
> of the _name_ should be like it is used (and likely registered).


I was hoping (with no expectation of success) that nobody would open the BP
can of worms.

The company was "British Petroleum plc" but that was its formal name and it
was generally
referred to as "BP."   In 2001 it went through a renaming exercise and now
trades as "BP plc."
Prior to 2001 "BP" would have been an initialism and we might legitimately
have used
"British Petroleum" for the name and "BP" for the short_name.  Now BP is
the full name, and
it is no longer an initialism.  But "Bp" looks silly.  However, on their
greenburst logo, they
use "bp" (which also looks silly as a name on a map).  I haven't checked
what iD tries
to force on us, but I'd go with BP.

BP isn't the only company to adopt an initialism as its name.  British
Technology Group renamed
itself to BTG.  However, BTG was recently acquired by Boston Scientific,
who seem to be dispensing
with BTG as a trading name.


> I also agree with Frederik though, if we feel the orthography of their
> name is particularly designed to game lists or maps, like “the BEST foo” we
> can individually make exceptions and must not slavishly adhere to their
> marketing.
>

As with everything, it comes down to judgement.  We can't hope to produce
rules that can cope
with every possible eventuality, just general guides that may sometimes
have to be interpreted.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 14. Dec 2019, at 21:30, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> 
> I would favor adding the name exactly as it appears in a sign, even including 
> punctuation marks if it's in their sign. For example AT AT at one time 
> was an abbreviation for American Telephone & Telegraph but they dropped the 
> full name for AT sometime back. It technically isn't an acronym anymore.  
> TCBY (The Countries Best Yogurt) is a yogurt shop that is widely recognized 
> in the US. If you wrote Tcyb, I doubt most people would even recognize it.


I agree, there are some more  examples like IBM and BP. The capitalization of 
the _name_ should be like it is used (and likely registered). I also agree with 
Frederik though, if we feel the orthography of their name is particularly 
designed to game lists or maps, like “the BEST foo” we can individually make 
exceptions and must not slavishly adhere to their marketing.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Clifford Snow]

On Sat, Dec 14, 2019 at 11:20 AM Markus  wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 01:44, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
> >
> > When that is how the business name is shown, what is our policy for it?
>
> I thought we had a policy for it, but i can't fine one. It's probably
> rather an observation that names in all caps are mapped in title case
> except for acronyms. I think this makes sense because it doesn't give
> these names more importance than other names in title case. By the
> way, newspapers do the same.
>
did come to mind.


I would favor adding the name exactly as it appears in a sign, even
including punctuation marks if it's in their sign. For example AT AT
at one time was an abbreviation for American Telephone & Telegraph but they
dropped the full name for AT sometime back. It technically isn't an
acronym anymore.  TCBY (The Countries Best Yogurt) is a yogurt shop that is
widely recognized in the US. If you wrote Tcyb, I doubt most people would
even recognize it. If written out, The Countries Best Yogurt, people
probably would recognize it either. See
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2304474733 for an example.

Newspapers have a different reason for changing case and even dropping
punctuation marks, readability. OSM is interested in capturing ground
truth.

The iD editor has a great feature that corrects the name to the official
name along with wikidata tags. The name just needs to be in their database.
It would be nice if JOSM had a similar feature.

Best,
Clifford



-- 
@osm_washington
www.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Markus]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 01:44, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
>
> When that is how the business name is shown, what is our policy for it?

I thought we had a policy for it, but i can't fine one. It's probably
rather an observation that names in all caps are mapped in title case
except for acronyms. I think this makes sense because it doesn't give
these names more importance than other names in title case. By the
way, newspapers do the same.

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Mateusz Konieczny]

14 Dec 2019, 13:57 by pla16...@gmail.com:

>> On the wider topic of writing names as they are on the sign, I would
>>  agree with this up to a certain point. It is entirely possible for a
>>  business to name itself "Fred's Bagels the BEST Bagels in Northern
>>  California Inc", at which point I would say they are starting to game
>>  our rules,
>>
>
> I like to think we make a difference, but such a big difference that people 
> alter their
> signage in order to game our rules?  Probably not. :)
>
They are unlikely to be targeting OSM,
but similar rule were used by other 
maps, telephone books and so on.
> Like everything we do, judgement is necessary.  If the name "PACIFIC" is 
> derived from
> some connection (however tenuous) with the ocean of that name, then tag it as 
> "Pacific."
> But if it's an acronym then "PACIFIC."
>
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 11:21, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> On 14.12.19 01:57, Paul Allen wrote:
> > How does the company itself capitalize its own name?  Paint the label.
> > Even if it's an ugly label.
>
> I tend to view capitalisation as a design element not a part of the
> name. If they write their name in Comic Sans then I won't try to copy
> that either, so why copy funny capitalisation that is only intended to
> attract attention.
>

Because attracting attention may not be the intention.  FRED'S BAGELS is
attracting
attention.  But HSBC is an initialism, and UNESCO is an acronym; both
represent
longer names.

>
> On the wider topic of writing names as they are on the sign, I would
> agree with this up to a certain point. It is entirely possible for a
> business to name itself "Fred's Bagels the BEST Bagels in Northern
> California Inc", at which point I would say they are starting to game
> our rules,


I like to think we make a difference, but such a big difference that people
alter their
signage in order to game our rules?  Probably not. :)

Like everything we do, judgement is necessary.  If the name "PACIFIC" is
derived from
some connection (however tenuous) with the ocean of that name, then tag it
as "Pacific."
But if it's an acronym then "PACIFIC."

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 14.12.19 01:57, Paul Allen wrote:
> How does the company itself capitalize its own name?  Paint the label. 
> Even if it's an ugly label.

I tend to view capitalisation as a design element not a part of the
name. If they write their name in Comic Sans then I won't try to copy
that either, so why copy funny capitalisation that is only intended to
attract attention.

On the wider topic of writing names as they are on the sign, I would
agree with this up to a certain point. It is entirely possible for a
business to name itself "Fred's Bagels the BEST Bagels in Northern
California Inc", at which point I would say they are starting to game
our rules, hoping to be put on the map with exactly that name - and I'd
reduce the name to "Fred's Bagels", putting the rest in "offical_name"
or something.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Mateusz Konieczny]

14 Dec 2019, 07:31 by graemefi...@gmail.com:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 16:27, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com> > 
> wrote:
>
>> In case of signs using capital letters
>> but people in real use (outside ads and
>> official documents) use it without
>> capital letters 
>>
>
> In this particular case, I don't know how other people refer to them, but 
> their premises sign, website, letterhead & even their name on payslips is 
> always in full capitals. 
>
In such case I would not change this.

Are they mentioned in articles in 
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 16:27, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> In case of signs using capital letters
> but people in real use (outside ads and
> official documents) use it without
> capital letters
>

In this particular case, I don't know how other people refer to them, but
their premises sign, website, letterhead & even their name on payslips is
always in full capitals.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Mateusz Konieczny]

How people are referring to this one?

Are they also using capitalized form?
In case of signs using capital letters
but people in real use (outside ads and
official documents) use it without
capital letters I would treat it as a font choice
and use name=Pacific

In case of mixed use I would go with form
used on signs.
14 Dec 2019, 01:43 by graemefi...@gmail.com:

> Recently been clearing some Osmose errors in our area.
>
> One that's appeared a couple of times is that the name of this particular 
> business is shown in all capital letters eg PACIFIC.
>
> When that is how the business name is shown, what is our policy for it?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Warin]

On 14/12/19 13:12, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:




On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 11:26, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:



BHP is an abbreviation, yet many simply know it by the abbreviation.

HSBC bank also uses capitols.


& both of those, as well as BP, ABC, CNN & a host of others would all 
error in Osmose!


Careful with ABC - two different things in two different places.


I can't open it today (apparently either server or maintenance 
issues?), but is there any way of telling me that this reported type 
of error isn't an error at all?


  Thanks

Graeme


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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 11:26, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> BHP is an abbreviation, yet many simply know it by the abbreviation.
>
> HSBC bank also uses capitols.
>

& both of those, as well as BP, ABC, CNN & a host of others would all error
in Osmose!

I can't open it today (apparently either server or maintenance issues?),
but is there any way of telling me that this reported type of error isn't
an error at all?

  Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 10:58, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> How does the company itself capitalize its own name?  Paint the label.
> Even if it's
> an ugly label.
>

Thanks.

I happen to actually know this company, & the way it operates, & in this
case, nothing would surprise me :-(

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Warin]

On 14/12/19 11:57, Paul Allen wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 00:44, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:



When that is how the business name is shown, what is our policy
for it?


How does the company itself capitalize its own name? Paint the label.  
Even if it's

an ugly label.



Names in use are not consistent ...

BHP is an abbreviation, yet many simply know it by the abbreviation.

HSBC bank also uses capitols.

I would tag the way that people commonly know it.

Perhaps as well as short_name OSM needs long_name where the short name 
is in common use?


The wiki is 'just' a guide.


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Re: [Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 at 00:44, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> When that is how the business name is shown, what is our policy for it?
>

How does the company itself capitalize its own name?  Paint the label.
Even if it's
an ugly label.

-- 
Paul
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[Tagging] Business names in capital letters

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Recently been clearing some Osmose errors in our area.

One that's appeared a couple of times is that the name of this particular
business is shown in all capital letters eg PACIFIC.

When that is how the business name is shown, what is our policy for it?

Thanks

Graeme
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