Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 23:28, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> In your sample, would someone driving from Aberystwyth Uni, go along the
> A487, then the A44 & the A4120 to get to Blandolau Rec Grounds, or would
> they use Penglais Rd, Quebec Rd, Ffordd Sulien then Heol-y-Bont?
>
>
They'd probably take Cefn Llan to avoid the city centre.  Especially during
rush hour.  :)


> In other words, do you navigate & drive by numbers or names?
>

As for names vs numbers, it depends if you're local or an outsider, or
somewhere in
between.  If you're a local and have lived there for decades, you just know
the way and don't
think of names or numbers.  If you're a local, but not a long-term one,
maybe the names,
because when you see adverts for shops they give the road name in the
address, not
the road reference number.   If you're an outsider you go by the numbers
because you know
there will be prominent signs wherever two A roads meet.  Signs with road
names on them can
be at any height from kneecap level to a couple of metres up, not as large,
and aren't always
placed where you need them to figure out which turn to take at a junction.

Sign on A487/Penglais Road for upcoming junction with A44:
https://goo.gl/maps/R652WXJJK2gnZN2W7

Signs at junction of A487 and A44: https://goo.gl/maps/Y8qLrGFh9rd4BuoJ6

Looking at signs at end of A44 where it connects to A487:
https://goo.gl/maps/KejdyofPsCUxapAG8
There you can see a sign for Penglais Road.  Smaller than the signs at the
junction for
A487 and A44.  A lot smaller than the sign warning you of the upcoming
junction.

For comparison, here's a road name in Cardigan.
https://goo.gl/maps/3e7KHPXeaAkj8PnQ9
Don't worry, not all roads in Cardigan have signs that are so high up and
partway down the
road.  Some of the roads don't have any sign at all.

If you weren't a local, you'd be looking for the signs for A487, A44, etc.
because they're bigger,
more prominent, have regulations governing placement, and are standardized
sizes and colours.
Signs for road names are smaller, and the colours are fairly arbitrary
depending on the tastes
of the town council.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Philip Barnes]

On Wed, 2019-08-14 at 08:26 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 21:19, Paul Allen  wrote:
> > A good example is the A487 passing
> > through the centre of the city of Aberystwyth:
> >  
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.4163=-4.0802#map=15/52.4163/-4.0802
> 
> Just looking at your sample there, Paul, & it's a good chance to ask
> a question that I've often wondered about.
> 
> I use OSMand+ to nav when required, & it will tell me to drive along
> SR3 then turn onto SR80 & proceed. I don't! - I drive along Bermuda
> St (which is officially Southport - Burleigh Rd!), then turn onto
> Reedy Creek Rd.
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/-28.0944/153.4260  
> 
> In your sample, would someone driving from Aberystwyth Uni, go along
> the A487, then the A44 & the A4120 to get to Blandolau Rec Grounds,
> or would they use Penglais Rd, Quebec Rd, Ffordd Sulien then Heol-y-
> Bont?
> 
> In other words, do you navigate & drive by numbers or names?
> 
In The UK we mostly navigate by numbers.

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 21:19, Paul Allen  wrote:

> A good example is the A487 passing
> through the centre of the city of Aberystwyth:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.4163=-4.0802#map=15/52.4163/-4.0802
>

Just looking at your sample there, Paul, & it's a good chance to ask a
question that I've often wondered about.

I use OSMand+ to nav when required, & it will tell me to drive along SR3
then turn onto SR80 & proceed. I don't! - I drive along Bermuda St (which
is officially Southport - Burleigh Rd!), then turn onto Reedy Creek Rd.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/-28.0944/153.4260

In your sample, would someone driving from Aberystwyth Uni, go along the
A487, then the A44 & the A4120 to get to Blandolau Rec Grounds, or would
they use Penglais Rd, Quebec Rd, Ffordd Sulien then Heol-y-Bont?

In other words, do you navigate & drive by numbers or names?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 19:18, Kevin  wrote:

>
> It is a national system, with each state having a say in how their roads
> are classed. Take a look, I think it's a good way to a solution for the
> perennial roadway class issue in the US.
>

I took a quick look.  It appears that a lot of thought has been put into
it.  It didn't seem obviously
wrong.  It would take a lot more examination by somebody far more familiar
with US roads
than I am to give a more refined opinion.

It might be as good as you're going to get as far as the US is concerned.
Probably a good
starting point for other countries without formal road classification
systems.  But I expect
a lot of bickering about it here. :)

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Kevin]

In the US I have been a proponent of using the Highway Functional
Classification as a guide when determining road classifications. I have
used it extensively in Georgia to help with road classification.

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/processes/statewide/related/highway_functional_classifications/section03.cfm


It is a national system, with each state having a say in how their roads
are classed. Take a look, I think it's a good way to a solution for the
perennial roadway class issue in the US.

Kevin

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 12:21 PM Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 7:35 AM Paul Allen  wrote:
> > Hard agree.  Even though it's starting to look like I live in the only
> country
> > in the world with a national classification system that is logical and
> > internally consistent (and even we have a few rare exceptional cases). :)
>
> The US certainly doesn't, because of the way we practice federalism.
> All fifty states have their own classification systems, and the
> classifications have more to do with how funding is doled out than the
> actual importance or traffic volume of the road. It is more political
> than technical. (Thanks to Martijn van Exel for pointing that out in
> last night's Zoom call!)
>
> Back in the days when you would grab a road map at a gas station in
> the US, the map-makers used their own hierarchy which was usually
> based on the attributes, "toll charged", "grade separated", "number of
> lands" and "surface". They typically aggregated these into about half
> a dozen different renderings, and had a legend on the map explaining
> the symbology used.
>
> I suspect that as routers get more sophisticated, the classification
> will become progressively less important, because attributes such as
> these will be taken into account more.
>
> Until then, we'll we'll always have some arguments, at every level of
> the hierarchy.  Recent arguments: "Is a six-lane dual-carriageway with
> a 120 km/h speed limit a motorway if it's hgv-no?" "Is a road built to
> full motorway standards actually a motorway if its service is suburban
> rather than interurban?" "Can a surface street that parallels a
> motorway ever be a trunk, or even primary?" "Can there be tertiary
> roads in a state that doesn't have county highways?" "Is there
> actually a difference between 'residential' and 'unclassified' in
> rural areas?" "Is the last segment of a motorway actually a motorway
> when it ends at a grade crossing? (What if the grade crossing is tens
> of km from the last elevated crossing?)"
>
> Of such questions are edit wars made, and edit wars make the
> classification even less useful.  Out in the boonies, I've encountered
> roads where other mappers have argued to me that the classification
> ought to be "tertiary", "unclassified", "residential", "service" or
> "track" - because different attributes of the (admittedly poor) road
> were important to different mappers. (Numbered county highway; the
> principal route, at least in summer, between two villages;
> non-hard-surfaced; a low-clearance automobile would have a bad day in
> inclement weather and a road bike would have a bad time any time;
> there are at least a few homesteads along it; and the primary reason
> for travelling in that particular area at all is forestry.)
>
> Alas, we can't do what Google Maps does, and aggregate the private
> information of everyone carrying a cell phone to measure current
> traffic speeds. That appears to be how Google's router makes its
> decisions.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Jmapb via Tagging]

On 8/13/2019 12:14 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:

Alas, we can't do what Google Maps does, and aggregate the private
information of everyone carrying a cell phone to measure current
traffic speeds. That appears to be how Google's router makes its
decisions.


Of course we used to have something along those lines with Strava RIP.

Smaller-scale but still useful -- The rideshare company Juno, which uses
OSM data for both routing and map display, shares a rolling aggregate of
their GPS traces which can be enabled as a layer in JOSM. No doubt it
could be algorithmically cross-reference with road classification; I've
just been inspecting it visually. Juno only operates in NYC for now, and
the data has clear demographic limitations (it shows which roads are
priorities for the kind of people who either work for or use rideshare
services). But it actually covers the city's grid pretty well, and I've
found it useful.

(See
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-March/082303.html
...also there were a couple Maproulette challenge using this data to
spot incorrect one-ways, bad turn restrictions, missing connections,
etc, see
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2019-February/019210.html
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-us/2019-February/019224.html
)

Note that this didn't require a bunch of end-user data consumers to
install an app which shares their location data with OSM. Obviously
Juno's customers do install the Juno app, but the shared data comes from
the driver's app, not the rider's.

Also note that Juno's decision to share back to OSM in this way was
entirely optional -- I don't think any reasonable interpretation of the
ODbL would actually require this. Nonetheless it's a nice precedent, and
if other companies that consume OSM data chose to give back in this way
it would help.

(Of course the trigger for this whole process was the fact that OSM's
road and address data in NYC was good enough that it was  a reasonable
decision to use it in a business setting!)

Jason


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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Kevin Kenny]

On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 7:35 AM Paul Allen  wrote:
> Hard agree.  Even though it's starting to look like I live in the only country
> in the world with a national classification system that is logical and
> internally consistent (and even we have a few rare exceptional cases). :)

The US certainly doesn't, because of the way we practice federalism.
All fifty states have their own classification systems, and the
classifications have more to do with how funding is doled out than the
actual importance or traffic volume of the road. It is more political
than technical. (Thanks to Martijn van Exel for pointing that out in
last night's Zoom call!)

Back in the days when you would grab a road map at a gas station in
the US, the map-makers used their own hierarchy which was usually
based on the attributes, "toll charged", "grade separated", "number of
lands" and "surface". They typically aggregated these into about half
a dozen different renderings, and had a legend on the map explaining
the symbology used.

I suspect that as routers get more sophisticated, the classification
will become progressively less important, because attributes such as
these will be taken into account more.

Until then, we'll we'll always have some arguments, at every level of
the hierarchy.  Recent arguments: "Is a six-lane dual-carriageway with
a 120 km/h speed limit a motorway if it's hgv-no?" "Is a road built to
full motorway standards actually a motorway if its service is suburban
rather than interurban?" "Can a surface street that parallels a
motorway ever be a trunk, or even primary?" "Can there be tertiary
roads in a state that doesn't have county highways?" "Is there
actually a difference between 'residential' and 'unclassified' in
rural areas?" "Is the last segment of a motorway actually a motorway
when it ends at a grade crossing? (What if the grade crossing is tens
of km from the last elevated crossing?)"

Of such questions are edit wars made, and edit wars make the
classification even less useful.  Out in the boonies, I've encountered
roads where other mappers have argued to me that the classification
ought to be "tertiary", "unclassified", "residential", "service" or
"track" - because different attributes of the (admittedly poor) road
were important to different mappers. (Numbered county highway; the
principal route, at least in summer, between two villages;
non-hard-surfaced; a low-clearance automobile would have a bad day in
inclement weather and a road bike would have a bad time any time;
there are at least a few homesteads along it; and the primary reason
for travelling in that particular area at all is forestry.)

Alas, we can't do what Google Maps does, and aggregate the private
information of everyone carrying a cell phone to measure current
traffic speeds. That appears to be how Google's router makes its
decisions.

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 13. Aug 2019, at 16:02, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> Which diverged into this thread.  We've come full circle. 


I am aware, but apparently from time to time you have to repeat and explain the 
outcome of older discussions to bring those on board who have joined later ;-)


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 14:49, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> In case of a road going through a settlement I would keep the road class.
> The wiki page on residential is also clear on this I thought: ‘This tag is
> used for roads accessing or around residential areas but which are not
> normally used as through routes (which would usually be classified highways
> or unclassified highways).’
>

It is clear as of nine days ago.  Somebody changed it a while back to be
rather unclear
because that person confused "unclassified" (OSM meaning) with
"uncategorized."  And
because residential roads are categorized, that person believed that meant
they were not
unclassified (not the OSM meaning).

Somebody (might even have been you) asked for a reversion.  I did it, and
expanded it a little
to avoid the unclassified/uncategorized confusion arising again.  That
change was not without
dispute from those who thought that through roads that pass through a
residential area ought
to be tagged as residential.  Which diverged into this thread.  We've come
full circle.  And may
go around the loop a few more times before we all collapse from exhaustion.
:)

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 13. Aug 2019, at 13:18, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> 
> In my opinion, tagging the trunk roads (and secondary roads) passing through 
> that city
> as residential would be very unhelpful.


yes, this is a discussion we also had over weeks and months in Italy, many 
years ago, where some mappers sustained that even in cities like Milan the 
highest road class would be tertiary, which led to illegible maps in these 
areas for some time, until they could finally be convinced...

In case of a road going through a settlement I would keep the road class. The 
wiki page on residential is also clear on this I thought: ‘This tag is used for 
roads accessing or around residential areas but which are not normally used as 
through routes (which would usually be classified highways or unclassified 
highways).’


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Re: > In Spain we have motorways (autopistas) and also we have
motorways (autovías).

I believe those translate as (sorry, my Spanish is rusty)

autopista (Lit. auto(mobile) raceway) = freeway (US), motorway (UK)
 - tag as highway=motorway

autovía (Lit. auto(mobile) road) = expressway (US), motorroad (UK)
 - add motorroad=yes (?)

> Our physical classification would not be subjective:
> -Is average speed statistics (here you can access and use this data for free) 
> subjective?
> -Is Average Daily Traffic (ADT) data subjective?

However, these statistics cannot be practically verified by us. We
could only copy and paste these from the official government
statistics, which would be updated infrequently and might not be
available for all roads (at least if Spain is similar to the USA). See
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability#Statistical_properties
"statistical properties often cannot be verified by individual
mappers." - that's why there are no commonly used tags for average
speed or average daily traffic.

> -Is maximum speed subjective?
> -Is the existence of bridges to avoid track crossings subjective?
> -Is the restriction for some kinds of traffic (bikes) subjective?

These can and should be tagged, because they are based on signs and
physical features, and I believe most good routing engines use all of
this information.

> The signage will be ALWAYS represented by the first letter of the reference.

That's not easy for foreigners and travelers to interpret. It's nice
to use a classification system that works internationally.

But as I mentioned before, I think the current tagging of
highway=trunk and highway=primary in Spain looks great. Go ahead and
add more tags like motorroad=yes if needed to distinguish the faster
routes.

-Joseph

On 8/13/19, yo paseopor  wrote:
> Sorry for this missunderstanding.
> In Spain we have motorways (autopistas) and also we have motorways
> (autovías). The problem goes with some roads (in some little moments can
> have two lanes per direction) that does not fit the standards of an
> "autovía or autopista" (bicycles, crossings at the same level -with no
> bridges with roundabouts to avoid the direct crossing) with unpaved tracks,
> no physical separation between directions... I assure you trunks are not
> motorways here in Spain.
> Our problems are first with same administrative classification (Nacional N-
> roads) but with some of them there is little maintance and horrible
> smoothness instead of newer constructions versus new roads done by
> Country's government . Or with very good roads (infrastructures are good
> pub for the government zone's so they publicate detailed projects with
> these kind of information and previsions
>
> Our physical classification would not be subjective:
>
> -Is average speed statistics (here you can access and use this data for
> free) subjective?
> -Is Average Daily Traffic (ADT) data subjective?
> -Is maximum speed subjective?
> -Is the existence of bridges to avoid track crossings subjective?
> -Is the restriction for some kinds of traffic (bikes) subjective?
>
> No, they don't.
>
> The signage will be ALWAYS represented by the first letter of the
> reference.
>
> Also I want to attach some pics of these questions
>
> https://imgur.com/R1xTsXu
> C-37 in this section should be trunk: 100/80, interlevel (with bridges)
> crossing with tracks, restricted access to bikes and agricultural
> vehicles...
> But it is not of Fomento (Country): it is from Generalitat de Catalunya
> (State). So...it would not be the best level fro a road. Some people in
> Spain thinks this should be primary for this last reason I have said. Some
> trucks uses this to go to France by Pyrenees instead of paying AP-7 toll.
>
> https://imgur.com/vXeELEN
> CG 2.2 in this section also should be trunk: same case before. It is from
> Xunta de Galicia (State), not Fomento (Country)
>
> 
> https://imgur.com/FyRh0Je
> N-260 in this section should be...secondary o tertiary: -of 50 maximum
> speed, all traffic allowed, road marks are orientatives of the middle of
> the road, two big cars does not fit at the same time ... But it is of
> Fomento (Country) so some people thinks this should be trunk. No big trucks
> use this section to travel around  Pyrenees. It is better to use whatever
> other solution.
>
> https://imgur.com/ejM93LR
> N-340 in this section should be primary:50/60 maximum speed, all traffic
> allowed but it is near the second city in population of Spain, Barcelona
> and this is the alternative of AP-7. Also two cars fit in. It is of Fomento
> (Country) so some people thinks this should be trunk.
>
> https://imgur.com/3AaQzpS
> T-340 in this section should be primary: 80/60 average speed, all traffic
> allowed, crossings with tracks at the same level without no bridges. But it
> is from Diputació de Tarragona (Province) so for some people this should be
> secondary or tertiary. It is the main road to access to Delta de l'Ebre 

Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 09:28, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> Sometimes it won’t help if this can only be one road, because for example
> a primary road could dissolve into several secondary roads (or can’t it?).
>

Town or city on the coast with only one primary road leading to it.
Secondary roads connect it
to nearby villages which have no other primary or secondary road to them.
Fan-out like
this is possible.

Better to avoid the computational complexity of figuring out which
primaries are or are not
terminal and just show all primaries.  After all, somebody looking at the
map may be trying
to find a primary route linking two terminal settlements.  So not only is
it computationally
difficult to strip out terminal primaries, it's unhelpful.  Those routes
are primaries for
several reasons, but one of those reasons is that people wish to go to the
places they
connect to, even locations at the end of a primary.

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 04:23, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

>
> Rather than using highway=trunk to define a autovia, motorroad or
> expressway with a certain maxspeed=, lanes=, or surface quality, I
> believe it is better to either 1) follow the national classification
> system, when this is logical and internally consistent,


Hard agree.  Even though it's starting to look like I live in the only
country
in the world with a national classification system that is logical and
internally consistent (and even we have a few rare exceptional cases). :)


> or 2) use network relationships and to assign a classification for a

 complete road route between towns. Changing the classification from trunk
>
 to primary to trunk again, in the middle of a rural area, breaks the
>
network.
>

I don't really agree on this.  It is possible for two trunks to be linked
by a primary.
In some cases it's mostly trunk from A to B with a bit of primary in the
middle.
In some cases two trunk routes, one from A to B and the other from C to D
have a primary linking them, and you'd use that primary to get from A to D.
And then there are cases where a section of a trunk road has been upgraded
to, or replaced by, a motorway.

UK map readers cope with these being rendered somewhat differently.
They're even
able to take secondary routes into account.  These things are coloured
whereas
minor through routes and non-through routes are not.  You look for the
coloured roads
linking A to B and try to figure out which is going to be best.

Where it goes wrong is people deciding that a trunk, primary, or even
secondary passing
through a town, city or village should be tagged as residential.

Certainly mappers should also tag maxspeed=, lanes=, surface=, and
> should map divided highways as 2 separate ways, and grade-separated
> intersections with bridge= and tunnel= + layer= so that routers will
> recognize faster routes.
>

Yep.  But I don't see those as a way of allowing one to tag primaries as
trunks.
They're a way of allowing routers to recognize that one particular primary
has
characteristics that are as good (or even better) than one particular trunk
where
either would be feasible alternative routes.

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 at 01:37, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> If classes like motorway or trunk are bound to legal or physical
> characteristics rather than only a hierarchical network, and aren’t
> “complete” from a network aspect, you will get the gaps.
>

This is the case in the UK.  You do get gaps in the network, to the extent
that occasionally
a section of a trunk road has been replaced with a short section of
motorway.  Unavoidable,
but not really a problem.  Both are rendered in a way that indicates they
are preferred routes
and humans looking at a map are good at spotting that there is a continuous
route even
though one segment has different legal/physical characteristics.

Where the problem comes is with those who insist that a trunk road passing
through a
city or large town should be tagged as residential.  A good example is the
A487 passing
through the centre of the city of Aberystwyth:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.4163=-4.0802#map=15/52.4163/-4.0802

In my opinion, tagging the trunk roads (and secondary roads) passing
through that city
as residential would be very unhelpful.

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 13. Aug 2019, at 05:19, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> Changing the classification from trunk to
> primary to trunk again, in the middle of a rural area, breaks the
> network.


it breaks the trunk network, but if there isn’t a trunk network (according to 
what is considered a trunk), it is consistent to see this also in the map. 

Ideally the renderer would only show those primaries additionally (where they 
are not usually shown), when they are needed for a complete network. This is 
probably difficult (or even impossible in a nearly live rendering), at least if 
there isn’t more guidance from tagging.

Would it make sense to introduce network qualifiers for connecting roads?

Sometimes it won’t help if this can only be one road, because for example a 
primary road could dissolve into several secondary roads (or can’t it?).

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Right. As Martin, said, while we shouldn't mistag for a better
rendering, it would be great if our tagging would at least make it
possible to have a consistent rendering.

Rather than using highway=trunk to define a autovia, motorroad or
expressway with a certain maxspeed=, lanes=, or surface quality, I
believe it is better to either 1) follow the national classification
system, when this is logical and internally consistent, or 2) use
network relationships and to assign a classification for a complete
road route between towns. Changing the classification from trunk to
primary to trunk again, in the middle of a rural area, breaks the
network.

Certainly mappers should also tag maxspeed=, lanes=, surface=, and
should map divided highways as 2 separate ways, and grade-separated
intersections with bridge= and tunnel= + layer= so that routers will
recognize faster routes.

I'm also in favor of using motorroad=yes and expressway=yes (Actually,
I think these mean nearly the same thing?) in Europe and in the USA
respectively, to define "autovias", "motorroads" and "expressways"
specifically.

But I don't think it's a good idea if highway=trunk is only limited to
segments of expressway or motorroad, because this leads to an
incomplete network, as in France. It would be nice if you could just
render all highway=primary along with trunk, but in France this still
leads to smaller gaps where primary roads suddenly end.

If each country could develop internally consistent highway classes
that show the network consistently, at some scale, this would help
renders and map users.

-Joseph

On 8/13/19, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 13. Aug 2019, at 02:21, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think your confusing tagging with rendering.
>>
>> Tagging is what is on the ground.
>> The road from Toulouse toward Lyon may physically change between the two,
>> so the tagging follows that (I don't think so but as an example?).
>
>
> I believe the issue is that in a proper network you would expect not to find
> gaps at specific zoom levels, when there are actually connections in reality
> (those should show up at the same time (zoom), or not, if you want to make a
> nice network map).
>
> If classes like motorway or trunk are bound to legal or physical
> characteristics rather than only a hierarchical network, and aren’t
> “complete” from a network aspect, you will get the gaps.
>
>
> Cheers Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 13. Aug 2019, at 02:21, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I think your confusing tagging with rendering.
> 
> Tagging is what is on the ground.
> The road from Toulouse toward Lyon may physically change between the two, so 
> the tagging follows that (I don't think so but as an example?).


I believe the issue is that in a proper network you would expect not to find 
gaps at specific zoom levels, when there are actually connections in reality 
(those should show up at the same time (zoom), or not, if you want to make a 
nice network map).

If classes like motorway or trunk are bound to legal or physical 
characteristics rather than only a hierarchical network, and aren’t “complete” 
from a network aspect, you will get the gaps.


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Warin]

On 13/08/19 02:02, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

yopaseopor,

My initial question was really about Indonesia in particular, and
countries without established, official highway classification systems
in general.

But I took a look at Spain, and while I don't know much about the
local road system, the use of highway=trunk vs highway=primary looks
quite good!

See the current rendering around the city of Soria, Spain:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/41.749/-2.444
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=7/41.500/-2.340

There is 1, and only 1, trunk road (or motorway) from Soria to each of
the 7 cities around it.

This is also true of Cordoba:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/37.9875/-4.7763

And it looks like every place=city in Spain is connected by
highway=trunk or highway=motorway to all of the other cities. This
means you can render a map with just these 2 tags and place=city, and
have a complete national roadmap.

I actually think this is a great example of what I would like to see
in Indonesia.

In contrast, look at Toulouse, France:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=7/43.588/1.384
- A highway peters out to the northeast (toward Lyon) and to the south
(toward Andorra). But if you zoom in to see the primary roads, it's
clear that the highway has switched from trunk to primary mid-route.
This makes it difficult to render a proper map.


I think your confusing tagging with rendering.

Tagging is what is on the ground.
The road from Toulouse toward Lyon may physically change between the two, so 
the tagging follows that (I don't think so but as an example?).

Rendering then has to make choices. If the choice is simply based on the 
tagging alone then there will be gaps,
particularly if those choices are made over large areas with various levels of 
infrastructure.
If the choice includes determinations of making at least one road connection 
from every city at some zoom level then you may have a 'better' map.
Similarly if the choice includes determining that little information is shown 
over some area of the map at some zoom level and so more detail can be resolved 
there you may have a 'better' map.

Each time these choices are made the complexity increases, if done manually 
then each time the map is remade there will be time spent on it.
If done by computation then there will be some computer time on it and 
occasionally errors will be encountered.

I have a road in one state at one level but when it crosses the state line it 
changes as that state regards it as a lower level .. and
the road does deteriorate quite noticeably! The tagging is correct but most 
maps show the road vanishing at one zoom level, you have to zoom in to see the 
poorer road.
The present rendering 'rules' don't resolve these issues as they are simple 
rules without too much complexity.
To get these rendering issues resolved will take some time, and more computer 
time.



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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Philip Barnes]

On 12/08/2019 19:06, Paul Allen wrote:
On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 18:25, Fernando Trebien 
mailto:fernando.treb...@gmail.com>> wrote:



There are all sorts of opinions on this matter, but trying to define
classification rules based on physical characteristics or
administrative responsibility (municipality, state or national) always
led to unexpected situations here. I guess the UK is somewhat unique
in having an official classification system that matches the
topological organization of the road system.


I would hope the UK is not unique.  The reason it matches (mostly) in 
the UK is that
the classification was assigned based on the characteristics of the 
roads.  It

wasn't somebody making decisions based upon a whim, it tried to assign
categories based upon usage: it defined a route as being primary if it was
the best route.

The UK is not unique. When I first drove to Paris back in 1981, I went 
on the hovercraft to Boulogne and then drove down the N1 to Paris.


It was much like a UK trunk road, mostly two lane, streches of dual 
carriageway and it passed through villages and towns along the way. Far 
nicer than boring Motorways.


I used that route many times over the years, however France 
deccentralised its network and much of this has been lost.


In England/Wales, the road network radiates out from London, with the 
single A digit roads leading to the major destinations.


A1 to Edinburgh, A2 to Dover, A3 to Portsmouth, A4 to Bath, A5 to 
Holyhead and A6 to Carlilse. The network is divided into zones, hence 
most A and B roads between the A5 and A6 (my zone), with start with a 5. 
The exceptions will be roads which  start in a different zone.


Scotland has a similar systen radiating from Edinburgh.

The term trunk is based on the trunk of a tree, with other roads 
branching off.


Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 18:25, Fernando Trebien 
wrote:

>
> There are all sorts of opinions on this matter, but trying to define
> classification rules based on physical characteristics or
> administrative responsibility (municipality, state or national) always
> led to unexpected situations here. I guess the UK is somewhat unique
> in having an official classification system that matches the
> topological organization of the road system.
>

I would hope the UK is not unique.  The reason it matches (mostly) in the
UK is that
the classification was assigned based on the characteristics of the roads.
It
wasn't somebody making decisions based upon a whim, it tried to assign
categories based upon usage: it defined a route as being primary if it was
the best route.

Yes, it is the case that trunks are administered by central government, but
again
it wasn't (I hope) that roads were arbitrarily designated as trunks but
that some
roads were so important that central government retained control over them.

We did it all that way because people want guidance in choosing the "best"
route
between A and B.  Before we had routeing algorithms, that was the only way
to do
it.  What surprises me is that some other countries didn't do it that way.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Fernando Trebien]

The international confusion is maddening, but this generic guideline
has helped reach consensus in my area in Brazil:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Ftrebien/Drafts/Generic_highway_classification_principles#Schematic_diagram_and_general_comments

Here's the result after a lot of discussion in the local community:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/RS/Classifica%C3%A7%C3%A3o_das_rodovias_do_RS#Mapa_de_primary.2C_trunk_e_motorway_no_Rio_Grande_do_Sul

There are all sorts of opinions on this matter, but trying to define
classification rules based on physical characteristics or
administrative responsibility (municipality, state or national) always
led to unexpected situations here. I guess the UK is somewhat unique
in having an official classification system that matches the
topological organization of the road system.

On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 5:27 AM Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:
>
> We recently discussed the confusion about unclassified vs residential
> recently, but a more significant issue is that different countries and
> regions have a wide variety of practices about assigning the major
> highway classes, especially trunk and primary.
>
> In some countries, including parts of Europe and parts of the USA,
> highway=trunk is reserved for "expressways" or "motorroads" with
> certain physical characteristics. However, in England where the tag
> originated, highway=trunk is used for the main, non-motorway highways
> in the country. As can be seen by glancing at the rendering of
> England, these highway=trunk connect just about every place=town in
> England: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=6/53.021/-1.033
>
> This means that highway=primary and highway=secondary is used for most
> other paved roads with one lane in each direction. Many place=villages
> in England are connected to a  highway=primary and the rest have a
> highway=secondary. And most hamlets are on a highway=tertiary which
> connects to larger villages or a town.
>
> This leaves highway=unclassified for very minor roads, often too
> narrow for 2 wide vehicles to pass each other, connecting isolated
> dwellings and farms. This is how they are like residential roads, in
> the English system.
>
> I would like to adapt this system to Indonesia, where the government
> has not yet classified most roads below the National level, but the
> "Jalan Nasional" class of major highways has already been decided to
> be mapped as highway=trunk.
>
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Indonesian_Tagging_Guidelines#Roads
> for an attempt.
>
> The idea is that one can determine the classification of highway based
> on what size of settlements it connects:
>
> trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
> primary - connects a town to a city or another town
> secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
> tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
> unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
> or another farm.
>
> This system is internally consistent and works well for rendering, as
> well as for routing.
>
> Thoughts?
> - Joseph
> (I wish I could review this with other Indonesian mappers, but we
> don't have an active forum or mailing list)
>
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Philip Barnes]

On Monday, 12 August 2019, Steve Doerr wrote:
> On 12/08/2019 14:36, Paul Allen wrote:
> > Where a country-wide classification exists, it is usual for this to be 
> > reflected in the
> > numbering scheme and the signage.  In the UK it may not be readily 
> > apparent whether
> > a road is a trunk or a primary since they'll both be "A" roads with 
> > the same style of
> > signage, but there's an obvious difference in signage between A roads 
> > and B roads
> 
> Careful. If my understanding is correct, the term 'trunk road' as used 
> in the UK does not map to highway=trunk in OSM. The latter has always I 
> believe been used to represent the 'primary route network' in the UK 
> (excluding the motorways), that is those A roads (and possibly some B 
> roads) which connect the designated 'primary destinations' on the road 
> network. They should be characterized by green signage, which therefore 
> distinguishes them from other A roads which are not part of the primary 
> network (black-and-white signage, confusingly mapped as highway=primary 
> in OSM).
> 
That is a correct summary.

Although most in the UK will be unaware  of the difference between trunk 
(national government operated) and other green signed A road (local government 
operated).

There  is no discernable difference between tha A49 south of Shrewsbury and A49 
north of Shrewsbury.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Steve Doerr]

On 12/08/2019 14:36, Paul Allen wrote:
Where a country-wide classification exists, it is usual for this to be 
reflected in the
numbering scheme and the signage.  In the UK it may not be readily 
apparent whether
a road is a trunk or a primary since they'll both be "A" roads with 
the same style of
signage, but there's an obvious difference in signage between A roads 
and B roads


Careful. If my understanding is correct, the term 'trunk road' as used 
in the UK does not map to highway=trunk in OSM. The latter has always I 
believe been used to represent the 'primary route network' in the UK 
(excluding the motorways), that is those A roads (and possibly some B 
roads) which connect the designated 'primary destinations' on the road 
network. They should be characterized by green signage, which therefore 
distinguishes them from other A roads which are not part of the primary 
network (black-and-white signage, confusingly mapped as highway=primary 
in OSM).


--
Steve

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[yo paseopor]

Sorry for this missunderstanding.
In Spain we have motorways (autopistas) and also we have motorways
(autovías). The problem goes with some roads (in some little moments can
have two lanes per direction) that does not fit the standards of an
"autovía or autopista" (bicycles, crossings at the same level -with no
bridges with roundabouts to avoid the direct crossing) with unpaved tracks,
no physical separation between directions... I assure you trunks are not
motorways here in Spain.
Our problems are first with same administrative classification (Nacional N-
roads) but with some of them there is little maintance and horrible
smoothness instead of newer constructions versus new roads done by
Country's government . Or with very good roads (infrastructures are good
pub for the government zone's so they publicate detailed projects with
these kind of information and previsions

Our physical classification would not be subjective:

-Is average speed statistics (here you can access and use this data for
free) subjective?
-Is Average Daily Traffic (ADT) data subjective?
-Is maximum speed subjective?
-Is the existence of bridges to avoid track crossings subjective?
-Is the restriction for some kinds of traffic (bikes) subjective?

No, they don't.

The signage will be ALWAYS represented by the first letter of the reference.

Also I want to attach some pics of these questions

https://imgur.com/R1xTsXu
C-37 in this section should be trunk: 100/80, interlevel (with bridges)
crossing with tracks, restricted access to bikes and agricultural
vehicles...
But it is not of Fomento (Country): it is from Generalitat de Catalunya
(State). So...it would not be the best level fro a road. Some people in
Spain thinks this should be primary for this last reason I have said. Some
trucks uses this to go to France by Pyrenees instead of paying AP-7 toll.

https://imgur.com/vXeELEN
CG 2.2 in this section also should be trunk: same case before. It is from
Xunta de Galicia (State), not Fomento (Country)


https://imgur.com/FyRh0Je
N-260 in this section should be...secondary o tertiary: -of 50 maximum
speed, all traffic allowed, road marks are orientatives of the middle of
the road, two big cars does not fit at the same time ... But it is of
Fomento (Country) so some people thinks this should be trunk. No big trucks
use this section to travel around  Pyrenees. It is better to use whatever
other solution.

https://imgur.com/ejM93LR
N-340 in this section should be primary:50/60 maximum speed, all traffic
allowed but it is near the second city in population of Spain, Barcelona
and this is the alternative of AP-7. Also two cars fit in. It is of Fomento
(Country) so some people thinks this should be trunk.

https://imgur.com/3AaQzpS
T-340 in this section should be primary: 80/60 average speed, all traffic
allowed, crossings with tracks at the same level without no bridges. But it
is from Diputació de Tarragona (Province) so for some people this should be
secondary or tertiary. It is the main road to access to Delta de l'Ebre one
of the most important Natural Parks in Catalonia.


https://imgur.com/y35kjmm
A-14 in this section should be motorway (autovía) . In Spain to be
"Autopista" you should to have these three things:
-No same-level crossings (without bridges and exits), no traffic signals
and roundabouts
-Minimum speed of 60 km/h
-Have two or more lanes per direction
-Strict criteria for access the way, from motorway junctions and not
directly.
When you don't cover one only of this criteria you are not Autopista , you
are Autovía (motorway also). Fomento decides in the majority of situations
convert their roads in motorways.

And yes Spain is different. I remember this https://imgur.com/mgfNbLs
between Liverpool and Manchester is a "trunk"... Here in Spain we don't
have this in a trunk for about...20 years.
Also other problem comes when you have a "Nacional" (administrative trunk)
and a parallel autovía (motorway). General traffic goes by motorway, so the
trunk has A.D.T. data more little than other secondary or primary roads of
the same zone (for this reason this section of the "Nacional" should be
tertiary. Well, in Catalonia we try it officially. Here it ICGC Catalan
Government (State) map:http://www.icc.cat/vissir3/index.html?DsebH9VpR
Fomento it is not agree with that: https://imgur.com/YH0GiWY
In this section there are not one but TWO motorways to avoid and pass the
city of Tarragona so tertiary is the most accurate category for this
section of "Nacional".

Openstreetmap should represent the reality of the place: you cannot avoid
the importance of some ways because they are from a little government. Or
in a reverse way: you cannot send the trucks via a sloped-curve-way because
it is "National"

Salut i carreteres (Health and roads)
yopaseopor























On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 12:35 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 01:20, yo paseopor  wrote:
>
>>
>> trunk: 

Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 17:27, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> So to put it together
>
> 0) Motorway
> 1) Trunk - national roads; the main roads that connect provinces to
> other provinces and cities to other cities. Start/end at cities.
> 2) Primary - main road that connect districts (the level below
> provinces) to other districts, and towns to other towns and cities.
> Start/end at towns (or cities).
> 3) Secondary - connect sub-districts to others, and villages to larger
> towns, by connecting to a primary road at some point. Not the main
> route in a district.
> 4) Tertiary - connect villages and hamelts to other villages, and
> connect to a secondary (or primary) road. Not the main route in a
> subdistrict.
> 5) Unclassified - connects hamlets and isolated dwellings to villages
> and larger areas, by connecting to a tertiary, secondary or primary
> road. Never a major through-route.
>

Looks sensible and usable to me.  Although looking at your changeset
comments
your fellow mappers seem to think that a couple of houses along a road make
it
a residential road.  Here are some examples you might wish to show them to
make
a point...

Here are a couple of houses along the A487 (the trunk road linking
Fishguard to Bangor, mostly
single carriageway with short sections of dual carriageway such as the
Cardigan bypass):
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.10448=-4.59910#map=19/52.10448/-4.59910

Here's the same A487 passing through the hamlet of Blaenannerch:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.11214=-4.56329#map=17/52.11214/-4.56329

Here's the same A487 passing through the town of Aberaeron:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.2418=-4.2608#map=16/52.2418/-4.2608

Here's the same A487 passing through the city of Aberystwyth:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.4169=-4.0730#map=14/52.4169/-4.0730

Having such a route switch from being a trunk road to a residential every
time there were
a few houses (or even a lot of houses) would not be very helpful to
somebody trying to
plan a journey from Fishguard to Bangor.  It would certainly make it a lot
harder to figure
out, in advance, how you'd traverse Aberystwyth.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Jumping back in here, I should clarify that I was mainly thinking
about how to help Indonesia and other countries with developing
Openstreetmap communities decide on ways to use the highway
classification tags, when there isn't a national highway class system,
or when it's not obvious how the local system should fit OSM tags.

In rural Indonesia, as in Australia, Canada, Brazil and other
countries with remote, undeveloped areas, there are often roads that
end at a settlement, and are the only way in or out, in contrast to
places in Europe which have complex networks with many different
options from point A to B.

That's the simple case that I was thinking of: if a road ends at a
city at A and it's the only route to the rest of the island, it's
likely to be a trunk road. If it ends at a town, and it's the only
connection from town A to all the other towns in the province, it's
probably a primary road, and so on. This allows mappers to identify
highway classifications based on the network in OSM data plus place=*
classes, which are fairly objective and verifiable (when based on
population plus services).

I actually heard back from one of the HDM/HOT lead mapper in
Indonesia, and he said that they often use a similar system, in more
populated areas like Java which have many roads and clear
administrative boundaries (unlike here in Papua):

"[National roads] "Jalan Trans-" in every island use highway=trunk.
"But personally, for other hierarchy, I recommend using
[administrative] boundaries.:
 - highway=trunk through province boundaries.
 - highway=primary connecting districts [admin_level=5] to cities or towns.
-  highway=secondary connecting city or town to sub-district
(kecamatan) [admin_level=6], connecting two sub-districts, and also
connected with a primary road.
- highway=tertiary connecting sub-district (kecamatan) to village
(kelurahan) [admin_level=7], crossing village boundaries, and also
connected with secondary road
- highway=unclassified connecting between villages, and isolated houses."

See: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/72632172. - I've edited
for clarity.

So that matches my thoughts about matching highway classes with the
settlements they connect as a main route, but also considers if it's
the main road to a whole district, sub-district or (administrative)
village. Generally every province (level 4) has at least 1 city and
each district (level 5) has at least 1 town, so the two ideas usually
match.

So to put it together

0) Motorway
1) Trunk - national roads; the main roads that connect provinces to
other provinces and cities to other cities. Start/end at cities.
2) Primary - main road that connect districts (the level below
provinces) to other districts, and towns to other towns and cities.
Start/end at towns (or cities).
3) Secondary - connect sub-districts to others, and villages to larger
towns, by connecting to a primary road at some point. Not the main
route in a district.
4) Tertiary - connect villages and hamelts to other villages, and
connect to a secondary (or primary) road. Not the main route in a
subdistrict.
5) Unclassified - connects hamlets and isolated dwellings to villages
and larger areas, by connecting to a tertiary, secondary or primary
road. Never a major through-route.

- Joseph

On 8/13/19, Paul Allen  wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 16:44, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
>> There is at least one trunk road (green signs) which has a B
>> classification. A6 to M6 near Shap.
>>
>> There's always one.  Sigh.
>
> I'd expect it to eventually get a new A number.  Possibly with a very large
> value of "eventually."
>
> --
> Paul
>

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Joseph Eisenberg]

yopaseopor,

My initial question was really about Indonesia in particular, and
countries without established, official highway classification systems
in general.

But I took a look at Spain, and while I don't know much about the
local road system, the use of highway=trunk vs highway=primary looks
quite good!

See the current rendering around the city of Soria, Spain:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/41.749/-2.444
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=7/41.500/-2.340

There is 1, and only 1, trunk road (or motorway) from Soria to each of
the 7 cities around it.

This is also true of Cordoba:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/37.9875/-4.7763

And it looks like every place=city in Spain is connected by
highway=trunk or highway=motorway to all of the other cities. This
means you can render a map with just these 2 tags and place=city, and
have a complete national roadmap.

I actually think this is a great example of what I would like to see
in Indonesia.

In contrast, look at Toulouse, France:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=7/43.588/1.384
- A highway peters out to the northeast (toward Lyon) and to the south
(toward Andorra). But if you zoom in to see the primary roads, it's
clear that the highway has switched from trunk to primary mid-route.
This makes it difficult to render a proper map.

Nancy, France is similar: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=7/48.655/6.141
There are several roads that have trunk segments, but come and go (eg
towards Paris, Rheims, Strasbourg, and Mulhouse). It looks like
missing data or a rendering error.

I imagine that mappers in France are using "trunk" for certain
features, like a dual carriageway (2 lanes in each direction, divided
by a barrier), or "expressway" or "motorroad" features, but since
these are only used in certain places, the road looks like it comes
and goes. This means that you have to render highway=primary at all
zoom levels, or else the road network is incomplete.

In theory, private map renders can edit the data to make a nicer
picture, but automated renderings based fully on OSM data (like the
standard layer on openstreetmap.org - Openstreetmap-carto) will not be
able to do much with the situation in France, especially when you look
at how many primary highways there are in a place like England -
rendering those at z5 to z7 leads to quite a mess:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=8/52.288/-0.104

Joseph

On 8/12/19, yo paseopor  wrote:
> In Spain we have big problems, discussions and arguments with that
> question. Last month, a French user complained about the state of a
> "Nacional" (Country Main Road) classified in OSM as trunk.
> These problems have one main reason. Here in Spain, in some places, there
> are six degrees of public administration: European Union, Estado (Country),
> Comunidades Autónomas (state), Provincia (province), Comarca (like county),
> Municipio (like town)...and fourth of them have competences and decisions
> about that.
> Also some Comunidades Autónomas make better investments and spend more
> money in some zones than Country government (because Country government
> prefers to do only motorways all over Spain) . But as for more people
> Country government is the most important (or the only important government
> for the country) the majority of roads that depends of that government are
> "defacto" the most important: trunk.
> This is a mess and a disaster because you have some trunk roads
> (nacionales) that don't deserve this category: roads with less width than
> normal for two lanes,level crossings for all kind of tracks, passing-by
> little villages,  horrible smoothness and with the same track as they were
> created sixty or seventy years ago. Also you have good new 21st century
> ways with only interlevel crossing, average speed of 80/100, big widths per
> lane, but as they are from the government of the province ("Diputaciones")
> or from the government of the "state" they are automatically primary ,
> secondary or tertiary roads. This is not fair. Think about it: a government
> will not spend its money in a road that is not really important.
> Barcelona's Province Government manages about one thousand million euros
> budget. So I assure you if  Barcelona's Province Government wants to build
> a new road in a well-populated area this road would be as good as primary
> or trunk.
> Some people in OSM Spain want other classification criteria (not
> administrative but physical) to make more objective the road
> classification:
>
> trunk: 4,3,2-lane new roads (newer than twenty years, with new track), with
> only interlevel crossings and exits, average speed of 80/100, and wide
> lanes. It is possible bikes or agricultural vehicles would be prohibited in
> these kind of ways.
> primary: 3,2-lane main roads, with crossings at the same level, average
> speed of 60/80, and wide lanes. All traffic should be allowed.
> secondary: 3,2-lane roads, connecting small territories, crossings at the
> same level, always with road 

Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 16:44, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> There is at least one trunk road (green signs) which has a B
> classification. A6 to M6 near Shap.
>
> There's always one.  Sigh.

I'd expect it to eventually get a new A number.  Possibly with a very large
value of "eventually."

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Philip Barnes]

There is at least one trunk road (green signs) which has a B classification. A6 
to M6 near Shap.

Phil (trigpoint)

 

On Monday, 12 August 2019, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 15:56, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> 
> > > If your country's government indicates with signs
> > > that a road as a primary route then that is what it is.
> >
> > no government says „primary“ road, they might say „A road“, or
> > „Bundesstraße“ but the latter is only telling that the Federal government
> > of Germany is in charge of the maintenance (i.e. it is somehow deemed to be
> > important, but it doesn’t say _how_ important it is, because importance
> > varies among Bundesstraßen, and it is only generally more important than a
> > Kreisstraße (local connection road), while in a specific case it may be
> > less important than a specific Kreisstraße.
> >
> 
> There's always one country does it differently. :p  I've just had a look
> into it, and Germany is
> rather messy. :(
> 
> Here the national government decides on which roads are primary and which
> are secondary.
> Some primary roads are designated trunk roads and they are maintained by
> national
> government with all others being maintained at the county level.  It's
> possible somebody
> could find an exceptional case and argue that a UK B-road ought to be
> tagged as a
> primary route, or an A-road be tagged as a secondary, but I doubt it.  In a
> few cases new
> roads or motorways have resulted in former A-roads being given a new B
> number by
> the government itself.  I'd hesitate to buck the system in the UK even if I
> found a
> very exceptional case.  Especially as speed limits and lane counts could be
> used
> by routers to prefer a secondary route to a primary route in some
> situations.
> 
> A map that highlighted roads in a way that conflicted with signage would be
> somewhat
> confusing.  Here we're used to the idea that a primary route is a better
> choice than
> a secondary route, all other things being equal.  If you're planning a
> journey you look
> at the primary routes first and maybe refine it a little by diverting onto
> secondary routes
> for part of the journey (actually you'd look at motorways first).
> 
> I’m all for recording these classes (we do it in ref in Germany and Italy),
> > but they cannot be an argument in the individual case in favor of a
> > specific osm highway class.
> >
> 
> In the case of Germany, I agree.  In Germany it's not that simple.  From
> what I've read
> the number of digits indicates how important the road is.  Sort of.  There
> are exceptions.
> :(
> 
> -- 
> Paul
>

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 15:56, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>

> > If your country's government indicates with signs
> > that a road as a primary route then that is what it is.
>
> no government says „primary“ road, they might say „A road“, or
> „Bundesstraße“ but the latter is only telling that the Federal government
> of Germany is in charge of the maintenance (i.e. it is somehow deemed to be
> important, but it doesn’t say _how_ important it is, because importance
> varies among Bundesstraßen, and it is only generally more important than a
> Kreisstraße (local connection road), while in a specific case it may be
> less important than a specific Kreisstraße.
>

There's always one country does it differently. :p  I've just had a look
into it, and Germany is
rather messy. :(

Here the national government decides on which roads are primary and which
are secondary.
Some primary roads are designated trunk roads and they are maintained by
national
government with all others being maintained at the county level.  It's
possible somebody
could find an exceptional case and argue that a UK B-road ought to be
tagged as a
primary route, or an A-road be tagged as a secondary, but I doubt it.  In a
few cases new
roads or motorways have resulted in former A-roads being given a new B
number by
the government itself.  I'd hesitate to buck the system in the UK even if I
found a
very exceptional case.  Especially as speed limits and lane counts could be
used
by routers to prefer a secondary route to a primary route in some
situations.

A map that highlighted roads in a way that conflicted with signage would be
somewhat
confusing.  Here we're used to the idea that a primary route is a better
choice than
a secondary route, all other things being equal.  If you're planning a
journey you look
at the primary routes first and maybe refine it a little by diverting onto
secondary routes
for part of the journey (actually you'd look at motorways first).

I’m all for recording these classes (we do it in ref in Germany and Italy),
> but they cannot be an argument in the individual case in favor of a
> specific osm highway class.
>

In the case of Germany, I agree.  In Germany it's not that simple.  From
what I've read
the number of digits indicates how important the road is.  Sort of.  There
are exceptions.
:(

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Aug 2019, at 16:38, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> may not be entirely
> predictable (especially if we don't have access to traffic statistics) and 
> the only objectively
> verifiable data we have is the signage. 


no, we also have our knowledge about the size and importance of the places that 
are connected, about right of way at crossings, road sections/size/surface 
quality, lanes, speed limits, „curvyness“, and we have an idea of traffic 
density (not as precise as true statistics maybe, but you usually have an 
idea), etc etc.



> If your country's government indicates with signs
> that a road as a primary route then that is what it is. 


no government says „primary“ road, they might say „A road“, or „Bundesstraße“ 
but the latter is only telling that the Federal government of Germany is in 
charge of the maintenance (i.e. it is somehow deemed to be important, but it 
doesn’t say _how_ important it is, because importance varies among 
Bundesstraßen, and it is only generally more important than a Kreisstraße 
(local connection road), while in a specific case it may be less important than 
a specific Kreisstraße.

I’m all for recording these classes (we do it in ref in Germany and Italy), but 
they cannot be an argument in the individual case in favor of a specific osm 
highway class.

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 15:31, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> TL;DR;
> Just because you only see a simple system for road numbering on the ground
> (like motorway, national, regional, local) doesn’t mean your government
> doesn’t use much more complex mechanisms to plan, build and maintain roads
> and the road network.
>

Which is a brief summary of part of the point I made.  However, the other
part was that even if
all of those internal planning rules are available, the decisions made may
not be entirely
predictable (especially if we don't have access to traffic statistics) and
the only objectively
verifiable data we have is the signage.  If your country's government
indicates with signs
that a road as a primary route then that is what it is.  If your country
doesn't have official road
classifications then you'll have to use your judgement.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Aug 2019, at 15:36, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> Where a country-wide classification exists, it is usual for this to be 
> reflected in the
> numbering scheme and the signage.  


people are often writing about this, but from the German situation, where I 
have been digging deeper, I can tell you that there is not just one 
classification with numbering scheme (this is what everyone can easily see on 
the ground, but it only reflects who is in charge of maintenance, and not the 
standards of the road). The scheme that is the more interesting and more in 
line with osm highway classes are the parameters used to decide on the layout 
and design the highway. They are looking at the importance of the connection, 
the function and the context, the rules are more complex and cannot be seen on 
the ground in the form of signs or numbers. Unfortunately these technical 
standards are not even publicly available for free, you would have to pay in 
order to get them.

I would expect many countries having similarly different systems, the 
signposted system of numbered routes, and a more detailed, internal system 
which is about the importance, function and resulting design and layout of the 
road.

There are a lot of standards, plans, etc. and the process to build a new road 
is quite complex (because besides technical requirements it also has to deal 
with politics like people living along the new road, funding, changing 
priorities or majorities during the planning and construction process, etc.), a 
long list of somehow road related standards in Germany can be found here for 
reference, and while it is mostly about technical details, there are also some 
more general documents listed:
  
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_technischen_Regelwerke_für_das_Straßenwesen_in_Deutschland


For the highway classes I would consider this the relevant standards/guidelines:
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richtlinien_für_integrierte_Netzgestaltung

(~guidelines for integrated network design)

You can get a glimpse into the table of contents here: 
http://www.fgsv-verlag.de/catalog/_pdf-files/121.i.pdf


TL;DR;
Just because you only see a simple system for road numbering on the ground 
(like motorway, national, regional, local) doesn’t mean your government doesn’t 
use much more complex mechanisms to plan, build and maintain roads and the road 
network.

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 14:07, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> if I don’t interpret this wrong, in Germany and Italy we are using the
> motorroad=yes qualifier for what appears to be called autovia in Spain
> (motorway like access restrictions).


Sounds about right.  Wikipedia's generic term for
motorways/freeways/autobahns etc. is
"Controlled access highway".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled-access_highway


> We are further using highway=trunk for all roads that are similar to
> motorways (no grade level intersections, ramps) but are not legally
> motorways. trunk and motorroad are orthogonal properties/classes.
>

Having looked further into it, the Spanish autovias most often resemble
what we in the UK
call "dual carriageways" in construction and legal constraints.  Dual
carriageways are usually
trunk roads here.

When it comes to lesser roads, the distinction between primary and
secondary isn't solely
about width, straightness, number of junctions, etc. but also depends upon
other
considerations such as whether or not there are alternative routes, the
size of the places
they connect, etc.  The way in which those factors are balanced by
bureaucrats is somewhat
opaque.  There may be secondary roads connecting unimportant locations that
are as good
as, or even better than, some primary roads.

Where a country-wide classification exists, it is usual for this to be
reflected in the
numbering scheme and the signage.  In the UK it may not be readily apparent
whether
a road is a trunk or a primary since they'll both be "A" roads with the
same style of
signage, but there's an obvious difference in signage between A roads and B
roads, and
between either of those and motorways.  It's not just the letter
designating them, but
also the colour and shape of signs that distinguishes them.

In a country where the government has classified roads in this way, it
doesn't seem like
a good idea for mappers to use their own subjective judgement to decide
which road is
a primary and a secondary.  The bureaucrats have traffic statistics that we
do not.  And
even if the bureaucrats are wrong (by some objective standard), the fact is
that all the
signage reflects what the bureaucrats say and not what one of us happens to
think.

A tagging scheme that doesn't reflect the signage seems to me to be somewhat
sub-optimal.  Especially when we can add tags for number of lanes, speed
limits,
etc. that allow routers to make more refined decisions than relying only on
the
road classification.

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Aug 2019, at 12:32, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> From what I've found (which may be wrong or I've misinterpreted it) 
> autopistas are
> highway=motorway.  Autovias are harder to categorize, but seem to be 
> theoretically
> highway=trunk even though in practise some of the newer autovias seem
> indistinguishable from highway=motorway in terms of construction and traffic
> regulations.


if I don’t interpret this wrong, in Germany and Italy we are using the 
motorroad=yes qualifier for what appears to be called autovia in Spain 
(motorway like access restrictions). We are further using highway=trunk for all 
roads that are similar to motorways (no grade level intersections, ramps) but 
are not legally motorways. trunk and motorroad are orthogonal 
properties/classes.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 01:20, yo paseopor  wrote:

>
> trunk: 4,3,2-lane new roads (newer than twenty years, with new track),
> with only interlevel crossings and exits, average speed of 80/100, and wide
> lanes. It is possible bikes or agricultural vehicles would be prohibited in
> these kind of ways.
>

Those sound like highway=motorway to me.  However, I'm not sure what you
mean by
interlevel crossings and exits.  But if they really are trunks rather than
motorways, from what
I've found in a brief search, Spain does have motorways but your scheme
doesn't mention
them.

>From what I've found (which may be wrong or I've misinterpreted it)
autopistas are
highway=motorway.  Autovias are harder to categorize, but seem to be
theoretically
highway=trunk even though in practise some of the newer autovias seem
indistinguishable from highway=motorway in terms of construction and traffic
regulations.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Warin]

On 12/08/19 15:38, Peter Elderson wrote:
That would be for the Australian mapping community to decide, to 
document and to implement.


There is already some guidance for Australian roads 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_Tagging


And not to forget the East African guide 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/East_Africa_Tagging_Guidelines#Road_classification


Mvg Peter Elderson

Op 11 aug. 2019 om 23:08 heeft Graeme Fitzpatrick 
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> het volgende 
geschreven:





On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 05:04, Paul Johnson > wrote:


On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:35 PM Peter Elderson
mailto:pelder...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I'm sure the hierarchy
trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary//residential
with a side of service types is general enough that all
countries can map their own system to it. I feel no need to
force any country's own system upon any other country, or to
make it the same all over the world.


I largely agree.  I wouldn't mind country-specific values similar
to the advantage that the UK has on this as previously stated,
then let the wiki work out what counts as largely equivalent in
character for the renderers to work with.  I feel like that would
help a lot on the front and back end of it.


So how do you go about setting country-specific values?

In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, 
Trunk!) road to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be 
able to show them with the importance that they are to local 
residents of that area.


Is it simply a matter of specifying road types under the "Australia" 
page & hoping that people read them?


Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Peter Elderson]

That would be for the Australian mapping community to decide, to document and 
to implement.

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 11 aug. 2019 om 23:08 heeft Graeme Fitzpatrick  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 05:04, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>>> On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:35 PM Peter Elderson  wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm sure the hierarchy 
>>> trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary//residential with a side 
>>> of service types is general enough that all countries can map their own 
>>> system to it. I feel no need to force any country's own system upon any 
>>> other country, or to make it the same all over the world. 
>> 
>> I largely agree.  I wouldn't mind country-specific values similar to the 
>> advantage that the UK has on this as previously stated, then let the wiki 
>> work out what counts as largely equivalent in character for the renderers to 
>> work with.  I feel like that would help a lot on the front and back end of 
>> it.
> 
> So how do you go about setting country-specific values?
> 
> In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, Trunk!) road 
> to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be able to show them 
> with the importance that they are to local residents of that area.  
> 
> Is it simply a matter of specifying road types under the "Australia" page & 
> hoping that people read them?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[yo paseopor]

In Spain we have big problems, discussions and arguments with that
question. Last month, a French user complained about the state of a
"Nacional" (Country Main Road) classified in OSM as trunk.
These problems have one main reason. Here in Spain, in some places, there
are six degrees of public administration: European Union, Estado (Country),
Comunidades Autónomas (state), Provincia (province), Comarca (like county),
Municipio (like town)...and fourth of them have competences and decisions
about that.
Also some Comunidades Autónomas make better investments and spend more
money in some zones than Country government (because Country government
prefers to do only motorways all over Spain) . But as for more people
Country government is the most important (or the only important government
for the country) the majority of roads that depends of that government are
"defacto" the most important: trunk.
This is a mess and a disaster because you have some trunk roads
(nacionales) that don't deserve this category: roads with less width than
normal for two lanes,level crossings for all kind of tracks, passing-by
little villages,  horrible smoothness and with the same track as they were
created sixty or seventy years ago. Also you have good new 21st century
ways with only interlevel crossing, average speed of 80/100, big widths per
lane, but as they are from the government of the province ("Diputaciones")
or from the government of the "state" they are automatically primary ,
secondary or tertiary roads. This is not fair. Think about it: a government
will not spend its money in a road that is not really important.
Barcelona's Province Government manages about one thousand million euros
budget. So I assure you if  Barcelona's Province Government wants to build
a new road in a well-populated area this road would be as good as primary
or trunk.
Some people in OSM Spain want other classification criteria (not
administrative but physical) to make more objective the road classification:

trunk: 4,3,2-lane new roads (newer than twenty years, with new track), with
only interlevel crossings and exits, average speed of 80/100, and wide
lanes. It is possible bikes or agricultural vehicles would be prohibited in
these kind of ways.
primary: 3,2-lane main roads, with crossings at the same level, average
speed of 60/80, and wide lanes. All traffic should be allowed.
secondary: 3,2-lane roads, connecting small territories, crossings at the
same level, always with road marks , average speed of 50/60, acceptable
width per lane.
tertiary : 2-1-lane roads, with reference, it is not necessary to have road
marks, average speed of minus than 50, it is not necessary to have the
width of 2cars.
We want also to use governments data like average speed and average daily
traffic (ADT) . Objective data should be consulted to take these decisions.
We want to take consideration of all "Country government roads" that have
big motorways near to make lower they category. In the reference we will
always have the administrative classification like N- Country C- State
L-Local and others like CV-V for the town. One road can be trunk at first
kilometers with good track, etc. and then when sharing track with the free
motorway can be tertiary.
We also aware Spain is not the same as Australia or Africa , we know
classification criteria cannot be the same due to physical conditions in
other countries. But some of them we want a real and objective ,
non-repetitive classification criteria (using letters of the reference and
the same classification in OSM is the same, talking administratively) for
tagging Spanish Roads in Openstreetmap.

Salut i carreteres (Health and roads)
yopaseopor


On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 at 22:10, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, Trunk!)
>> road to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be able to show
>> them with the importance that they are to local residents of that area.
>>
>
> There appear to be two schools of thought on this.  One is that if it is
> the only road between A
> and B then it is a primary road, even if it's a single-lane dirt track.
> The other is to adopt
> a consistent country (or state, or region) wide classification, preferably
> adhering to official
> classification if there is any, which might mean that the only road
> between A and B is a
> secondary, tertiary or even quaternary road.
>
> I favour the latter approach.  If there is only one single-lane track
> between A and B then
> it is obviously of importance to those in the area without it needing to
> be emphasised by
> a different colour.  Whereas rendering it as a primary road will mislead
> some people
> planning a cross-country trip into think it's paved highway all the way,
> including the
> final part of their trip from A to B.
>
> I suggest that before you decide which approach best suits your country
> you first check
> if 

Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 at 22:10, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, Trunk!)
> road to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be able to show
> them with the importance that they are to local residents of that area.
>

There appear to be two schools of thought on this.  One is that if it is
the only road between A
and B then it is a primary road, even if it's a single-lane dirt track.
The other is to adopt
a consistent country (or state, or region) wide classification, preferably
adhering to official
classification if there is any, which might mean that the only road between
A and B is a
secondary, tertiary or even quaternary road.

I favour the latter approach.  If there is only one single-lane track
between A and B then
it is obviously of importance to those in the area without it needing to be
emphasised by
a different colour.  Whereas rendering it as a primary road will mislead
some people
planning a cross-country trip into think it's paved highway all the way,
including the
final part of their trip from A to B.

I suggest that before you decide which approach best suits your country you
first check
if there is a governmental classification scheme of highways.  It appears
that, for Australia,
things are rather inconsistent across the states and territories and have
changed over
the years.  Nevertheless, alphanumeric designations are now common amongst
most
states and territories and the meaning of those designations can be found at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Australia#Prefix_letters
After examining that, then make your decision as to whether or not the OSM
map ought
to reflect official designations or do its own thing.  And then discuss it
in whatever forum
Australian mappers use and see if you can get a consensus agreeing with you.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 05:04, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:35 PM Peter Elderson 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm sure the hierarchy
>> trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary//residential with a side
>> of service types is general enough that all countries can map their own
>> system to it. I feel no need to force any country's own system upon any
>> other country, or to make it the same all over the world.
>>
>
> I largely agree.  I wouldn't mind country-specific values similar to the
> advantage that the UK has on this as previously stated, then let the wiki
> work out what counts as largely equivalent in character for the renderers
> to work with.  I feel like that would help a lot on the front and back end
> of it.
>

So how do you go about setting country-specific values?

In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, Trunk!)
road to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be able to show
them with the importance that they are to local residents of that area.

Is it simply a matter of specifying road types under the "Australia" page &
hoping that people read them?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Johnson]

On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:35 PM Peter Elderson  wrote:

> I'm sure the hierarchy
> trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary//residential with a side
> of service types is general enough that all countries can map their own
> system to it. I feel no need to force any country's own system upon any
> other country, or to make it the same all over the world.
>

I largely agree.  I wouldn't mind country-specific values similar to the
advantage that the UK has on this as previously stated, then let the wiki
work out what counts as largely equivalent in character for the renderers
to work with.  I feel like that would help a lot on the front and back end
of it.

If mapping tools map "dunno" to highway=road and  to
> highway=unclassified, I would applaud that. If renderers would consider
> mapping quaternary same as unclassified, I would applaud that. If this list
> could reach consensus for this preferred tagging and some commitment to
> getting it straight in a few OSM-significant countries, I'm sure renderers,
> mapping tools and checking tools will consider implementing it.
>

Agreed, highway=road is great for "there's something here, but I don't know
what it is".  Amazon Logistics mappers would be wise to use this value more
than trying to make a low quality or incorrect guess (and I hope they're
reading this because they're really doing a number on driveways and parking
lots in Oklahoma right now at a pace I can't keep up with, particularly
with OSMCha having broken RSS feeds).
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Peter Elderson]

I'm sure the hierarchy
trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary//residential with a side
of service types is general enough that all countries can map their own
system to it. I feel no need to force any country's own system upon any
other country, or to make it the same all over the world.

If mapping tools map "dunno" to highway=road and  to
highway=unclassified, I would applaud that. If renderers would consider
mapping quaternary same as unclassified, I would applaud that. If this list
could reach consensus for this preferred tagging and some commitment to
getting it straight in a few OSM-significant countries, I'm sure renderers,
mapping tools and checking tools will consider implementing it.

Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op zo 11 aug. 2019 om 19:40 schreef Paul Johnson :

> On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 3:26 AM Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
>> primary - connects a town to a city or another town
>> secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
>> tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
>> unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
>> or another farm.
>>
>
> I'm pretty sure NE2 already tried forcing this once and it went
> approximately nowhere because it turns out there's more country-to-country
> nuance than that.
>
> I'm all for adding additional and country-specific tags for highway, so
> that these British-specific ones can continue to work there and I'd be open
> to, say, getting highway= values like freeway, expressway, urban_arterial,
> etc, that map nicely to the US.  But, trying to remap the consensus to
> existing British-specific tag values is going to be a harder battle.
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 3:26 AM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
> primary - connects a town to a city or another town
> secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
> tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
> unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
> or another farm.
>

I'm pretty sure NE2 already tried forcing this once and it went
approximately nowhere because it turns out there's more country-to-country
nuance than that.

I'm all for adding additional and country-specific tags for highway, so
that these British-specific ones can continue to work there and I'd be open
to, say, getting highway= values like freeway, expressway, urban_arterial,
etc, that map nicely to the US.  But, trying to remap the consensus to
existing British-specific tag values is going to be a harder battle.
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Peter Elderson]

OT
"If we were to redesign the human body from
scratch it wouldn't have a recurrent laryngeal nerve, the epididymus would
take a
different route and the eyes wouldn't be wired backwards,..."

...and we would be born with wheels, wings and wifi...

Fr gr Peter Elderson



>
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2019 at 15:32, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> Paul, thank you for clarifying the situation in England, as much as it
> can be clarified.
>

As with OSM tagging, it evolved.  So we have things that are not ideal
simply because of
historical accident.  If the UK were to come up with an all-new
classification scheme,
based on everything we now know, it would probably look a lot different.
But the cost of
replacing all the signage, and all the printed maps, and the knowledge in
people's
heads means that will never happen.  If we were to redesign the human body
from
scratch it wouldn't have a recurrent laryngeal nerve, the epididymus would
take a
different route and the eyes wouldn't be wired backwards, but evolution
can't do that.

I'm sorry we inflicted our mess onto OSM, but that's just the way OSM
evolved.  BTW,
that mess applies to the whole of Great Britan, not just England (things
are somewhat
different in Northern Ireland).

Generally I'm thinking about the many countries, outside of Europe,
> where the tagging system has not yet been established, and where the
> government hasn't clearly categorized the highways yet.
>

Your original post read like you intended it to be applied globally.  As a
set of
heuristics to apply in places where there are no official categories of
roads,
then go for it.  I think it needs more work because the road network is a
mesh
with many pairs of population centres having many routes between them,
some routes being longer, some routes being quicker.  The preferred route
from X to Y may be a detour via Z even though there is a shorter, direct
route
from X to Y.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Paul, thank you for clarifying the situation in England, as much as it
can be clarified.

Fortunately, our situation in eastern Indonesia is much simpler: most
roads have no official classification, and most towns and villages
only have one or two significant road connections to the rest of the
island.

I'm trying to help all of the HOT and facebook mappers classify the
highways in a reasonable way, instead of adding them all as
highway=unclassified (based on confusion) or highway=track (because
they are unpaved). And there was also a mapper adding every new road
as highway=primary, since it was the only road in the area, even it it
wandered off into the forest.

Generally I'm thinking about the many countries, outside of Europe,
where the tagging system has not yet been established, and where the
government hasn't clearly categorized the highways yet.

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 10 Aug 2019 at 09:27, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

However, in England where the tag originated, highway=trunk is used for the
> main,
>
non-motorway highways in the country.
>

Erm, no.  It's not like that.  Almost, but not quite.

There are A roads (known in OSM as primary routes) which are important
routes connecting
major population centres.  There are B roads (known in OSM as secondary
routes) which
have lower traffic densities than A routes and/or connect lesser population
centres.

"A" roads are not synonymous with trunks in the UK.  In the UK a trunk road
is more of an
A+ road rather than just an A road and is funded/maintained by national
government rather
than local government.  Ignoring motorways, all(?) UK trunks are A roads
but not all A roads
are trunks.  As far as motorists are concerned, trunks are
indistinguishable from A roads
in terms of signage.  Although a non-trunk A road usually does not have the
capacity of a
trunk A road there are cases where that is not true.

And then there are motorways.  In OSM-speak they might be called nullary
(nihilary?) routes.
"A" roads are level 1, B roads are level 2 and motorways are level 0.
Trunks are maybe level
0.9 or 0.75 or 0.99 or something like that - a little better than non-trunk
A roads, maybe.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roads_in_the_United_Kingdom#Classification

As can be seen by glancing at the rendering of
> England, these highway=trunk connect just about every place=town in
> England: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=6/53.021/-1.033


Assuming they have all been tagged correctly, of course.  That may not be
the case.

The idea is that one can determine the classification of highway based
> on what size of settlements it connects:
>
> trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
> primary - connects a town to a city or another town
> secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
> tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
> unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
> or another farm.
>

In general, I dislike it when different countries interpret the same tags
differently.  But
I also don't like the possibility that OSM will render routes in a way that
differs from
their official classifications.  Civil servants have examined actual
traffic statistics and
considered actual road construction (bends, constrictions, junctions, etc.)
to classify
certain routes in certain ways.  If they say that the shortest road between
town X and
town Y is a B road rather than an A road, they had a good  reason to do so
(I hope).

Your scheme also suffers another problem.  I can point you at a road which
connects
the biggest town in my county to the biggest (only) city in my county.  It
passes through
a smaller town and a large number of hamlets.  Is it a primary (big town to
city) or
a secondary (hamlet to hamlet to hamlet)?  You may think it's obvious, but
there are
any number of circuitous routes connecting that big town to the city.  I
can come up
with a route that takes me the thirty miles from the big town to the city
by wandering
to the other end of the UK and back, but hat route DOES connect the two.
Equally, the
shortest route between X and Y could be a twisty, bendy thing whilst
there's an A
road and a B road that connect the two which are longer but faster.

This system is internally consistent and works well for rendering, as
> well as for routing.
>

Shortest route vs fastest route.  UK road designations take both factors
into account,
mainly the latter.  People eyeballing things are likely to come up with the
former.

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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Peter Elderson]

Good luck with that!

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 10 aug. 2019 om 11:59 heeft Julien djakk  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> Hello !
> 
> I've been thinking about this for a long time.
> 
> Classifying roads should be the same all over the world ! :O
> 
> The highway tag shuffles administration grade (in England for example
> or for motorways), physical characteristics / abutters (example :
> residential, motorway), access, and importance (commuting and
> long-distance trip). I think the highway tag should be split into
> those 5 features : admin_level, abutters, access, commute_importance
> and long_distance_importance (by experience, there should be 6 levels
> for importance, from the cul-de-sac road to the main artery).
> 
> Importance tags could also apply to bicycle path and footways :D
> 
> 
> Julien "djakk"
> 
> Le sam. 10 août 2019 à 10:27, Joseph Eisenberg
>  a écrit :
>> 
>> We recently discussed the confusion about unclassified vs residential
>> recently, but a more significant issue is that different countries and
>> regions have a wide variety of practices about assigning the major
>> highway classes, especially trunk and primary.
>> 
>> In some countries, including parts of Europe and parts of the USA,
>> highway=trunk is reserved for "expressways" or "motorroads" with
>> certain physical characteristics. However, in England where the tag
>> originated, highway=trunk is used for the main, non-motorway highways
>> in the country. As can be seen by glancing at the rendering of
>> England, these highway=trunk connect just about every place=town in
>> England: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=6/53.021/-1.033
>> 
>> This means that highway=primary and highway=secondary is used for most
>> other paved roads with one lane in each direction. Many place=villages
>> in England are connected to a  highway=primary and the rest have a
>> highway=secondary. And most hamlets are on a highway=tertiary which
>> connects to larger villages or a town.
>> 
>> This leaves highway=unclassified for very minor roads, often too
>> narrow for 2 wide vehicles to pass each other, connecting isolated
>> dwellings and farms. This is how they are like residential roads, in
>> the English system.
>> 
>> I would like to adapt this system to Indonesia, where the government
>> has not yet classified most roads below the National level, but the
>> "Jalan Nasional" class of major highways has already been decided to
>> be mapped as highway=trunk.
>> 
>> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Indonesian_Tagging_Guidelines#Roads
>> for an attempt.
>> 
>> The idea is that one can determine the classification of highway based
>> on what size of settlements it connects:
>> 
>> trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
>> primary - connects a town to a city or another town
>> secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
>> tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
>> unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
>> or another farm.
>> 
>> This system is internally consistent and works well for rendering, as
>> well as for routing.
>> 
>> Thoughts?
>> - Joseph
>> (I wish I could review this with other Indonesian mappers, but we
>> don't have an active forum or mailing list)
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Julien djakk]

Hello !

I've been thinking about this for a long time.

Classifying roads should be the same all over the world ! :O

The highway tag shuffles administration grade (in England for example
or for motorways), physical characteristics / abutters (example :
residential, motorway), access, and importance (commuting and
long-distance trip). I think the highway tag should be split into
those 5 features : admin_level, abutters, access, commute_importance
and long_distance_importance (by experience, there should be 6 levels
for importance, from the cul-de-sac road to the main artery).

Importance tags could also apply to bicycle path and footways :D


Julien "djakk"

Le sam. 10 août 2019 à 10:27, Joseph Eisenberg
 a écrit :
>
> We recently discussed the confusion about unclassified vs residential
> recently, but a more significant issue is that different countries and
> regions have a wide variety of practices about assigning the major
> highway classes, especially trunk and primary.
>
> In some countries, including parts of Europe and parts of the USA,
> highway=trunk is reserved for "expressways" or "motorroads" with
> certain physical characteristics. However, in England where the tag
> originated, highway=trunk is used for the main, non-motorway highways
> in the country. As can be seen by glancing at the rendering of
> England, these highway=trunk connect just about every place=town in
> England: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=6/53.021/-1.033
>
> This means that highway=primary and highway=secondary is used for most
> other paved roads with one lane in each direction. Many place=villages
> in England are connected to a  highway=primary and the rest have a
> highway=secondary. And most hamlets are on a highway=tertiary which
> connects to larger villages or a town.
>
> This leaves highway=unclassified for very minor roads, often too
> narrow for 2 wide vehicles to pass each other, connecting isolated
> dwellings and farms. This is how they are like residential roads, in
> the English system.
>
> I would like to adapt this system to Indonesia, where the government
> has not yet classified most roads below the National level, but the
> "Jalan Nasional" class of major highways has already been decided to
> be mapped as highway=trunk.
>
> See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Indonesian_Tagging_Guidelines#Roads
> for an attempt.
>
> The idea is that one can determine the classification of highway based
> on what size of settlements it connects:
>
> trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
> primary - connects a town to a city or another town
> secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
> tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
> unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
> or another farm.
>
> This system is internally consistent and works well for rendering, as
> well as for routing.
>
> Thoughts?
> - Joseph
> (I wish I could review this with other Indonesian mappers, but we
> don't have an active forum or mailing list)
>
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[Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified

[Joseph Eisenberg]

We recently discussed the confusion about unclassified vs residential
recently, but a more significant issue is that different countries and
regions have a wide variety of practices about assigning the major
highway classes, especially trunk and primary.

In some countries, including parts of Europe and parts of the USA,
highway=trunk is reserved for "expressways" or "motorroads" with
certain physical characteristics. However, in England where the tag
originated, highway=trunk is used for the main, non-motorway highways
in the country. As can be seen by glancing at the rendering of
England, these highway=trunk connect just about every place=town in
England: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=6/53.021/-1.033

This means that highway=primary and highway=secondary is used for most
other paved roads with one lane in each direction. Many place=villages
in England are connected to a  highway=primary and the rest have a
highway=secondary. And most hamlets are on a highway=tertiary which
connects to larger villages or a town.

This leaves highway=unclassified for very minor roads, often too
narrow for 2 wide vehicles to pass each other, connecting isolated
dwellings and farms. This is how they are like residential roads, in
the English system.

I would like to adapt this system to Indonesia, where the government
has not yet classified most roads below the National level, but the
"Jalan Nasional" class of major highways has already been decided to
be mapped as highway=trunk.

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Indonesian_Tagging_Guidelines#Roads
for an attempt.

The idea is that one can determine the classification of highway based
on what size of settlements it connects:

trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
primary - connects a town to a city or another town
secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
or another farm.

This system is internally consistent and works well for rendering, as
well as for routing.

Thoughts?
- Joseph
(I wish I could review this with other Indonesian mappers, but we
don't have an active forum or mailing list)

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