Re: [Tagging] Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

2020-08-27 Thread Jeroen Hoek
On 26-08-2020 14:42, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> What is the "saving" n using the cyclestreet=yes tagging? […] 
> Basically I see no need for separate tags like bicycle_road and 
> cyclestreet, as you can easily describe their properties with 
> existing tags. Add to this the confusion between the two tags, and 
> then add to the mix the myriad of variants on the subject in 
> countries other than Germany and Belgium, respectively.

I can't comment on bicycle_road, but as for cyclestreet the wiki gives a
fair description:

> A cyclestreet is a street that is designed as a bicycle route, but 
> on which cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited by
> the character and layout of the cyclestreet.
> 
> Bicycles are the primary users of the street, while motor vehicles 
> are secondary.

All other tags like maxspeed and overtaking:motorcar are useful, but
tell the consumer nothing about the inherent nature of the cyclestreet,
which is a shared road that is by design bicycle-friendly. This goes
beyond taggable properties (e.g. traffic flow to and from such streets
in the broader city grid is taken into account, there are no speed
barriers that are bicycle-unfriendly).

The tag cyclestreet=yes can serve some purposes I can think of:

* Rendering these streets differently on (cycling) maps (like a blend
between a normal street and highway=cycleway)

* Prefer them in cycling routing engines over streets lacking cycling
facilities

* Penalize them in car routing engines

It is analogous to highway=cycleway: you can easily use highway=service
and add a bunch of tags making it a cycleway in terms of access rights,
but a cycleway implies much more than that (like safety and
suitability). The cyclestreet=yes tag is similar in this respect.

Jeroen Hoek

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Re: [Tagging] Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

2020-08-26 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 26. Aug 2020, at 14:44, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> In my opinion the "naked " German Fahrradstrasse is equivalent to
> highway=service|residential
> vehicle=no
> foot=use_sidewalk  or sidewalk=separate if there is a separate sidewalk
> bicycle=designated
> maxspeed=30



this raises the question whether highway=residential with vehicle=no is still a 
residential road. you would not expect a residential road to exclude all kinds 
of vehicles, would you? It’s more like a highway=cycleway with width=5 and 
foot=yes (on the sidewalks).
In both cases you kind of loose the nuances.


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

2020-08-26 Thread Jo
fietsstraat / rue cyclable are really 'a thing' in Belgium. Usually the
whole street is redesigned, it's not just a traffic sign on both ends. Red
asphalt, giant flower pots. Car drivers don't seem to realise that they are
not allowed to overtake cyclists in most of them though. So that's a bit
disappointing. They pass me by even when I'm going at 25km/h and they are
supposedly only allowed to go at 30km/h. I had no idea that their
'properties' were so different in The Netherlands and Germany.

I agree that their definitions should probably not be 'exported' to other
countries, until such time that something with the same semantics exists
there.

Polyglot

On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 2:44 PM Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> Yes, there is a legal difference
>
> *bicycle_road*
> A German "Fahrradstrasse" (which is the prototype on which this tag seems
> to be modeled) is a road exclusively  for bicycles in the sense that
> carries the the sign "Fahrradstrasse" without addition indicates that the
> carriageway of the road is reserved for bicycles, pedestrians, people on
> skayes, youn children on bicycles need to use the sidewalk (if available).
> lso an implied speed limit of 30km/h applies.
> In my opinion the "naked " German Fahrradstrasse is equivalent to
> highway=service|residential
> vehicle=no
> foot=use_sidewalk  or sidewalk=separate if there is a separate sidewalk
> bicycle=designated
> maxspeed=30
> So what do you "save" in tagging with bicycle_road=yes ?
> As far as I can see it replaces "vehicle=no" and "bicycle=designated" with
> "bicycle_road=yes"
> (the speed limit is not part of the the bicycle_road tag nor is there any
> indication about pedestrians)
>
> *cyclestreet*
> The prototype cycle street seems to be the Belgian "rue cyclable |
> fietsstraat" that describes a road that is not wide enough for creating
> separate cycle lanes or cycleways, hence the carriageway is shared between
> cyclists and motor vehicles. Motor vehicles are not allowed to overtake
> bicycles and there is an implicit speed limit of 30km/h
>
> Such a road would be equivalent to
> highway=service|residential
> foot=use_sidewalk  or sidewalk=separate if there is a separate sidewalk
> maxspeed=30
> overtaking:motorcar=no (this tagging is not defined in the wiki)
> What is the "saving" n using the cyclestreet=yes tagging?
> None, as both maxspeed and overtaking restriction are not part of the OSM
> tah cyclestreet=yes
>
> Basically I see no need for separate tags like bicycle_road and
> cyclestreet, as you can easily describe their properties with existing
> tags. Add to this the confusion between the two tags, and then add to the
> mix the myriad of variants on the subject in countries other than Germany
> and Belgium, respectively.
> These two tags should be discouraged.
> As that most likely is not possible, maybe we can at least discourage
> their "export" to other countries.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 08:51, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> I am curious is there any difference in practical use of this two tags.
>>
>> Aug 25, 2020, 12:13 by vosc...@gmail.com:
>>
>> Hi,
>> I have come across a new (to me) street sign In Italy:
>> https://italy-cycling-guide.info/tips-advice/riding-in-italy/
>> The road is a one-lane residential road on which bicycles and pedestrians
>> can circulate.
>> I don't know the legal status, however (I am inquiring).
>>
>> In that contest I have noticed that we have two wiki pages defining two
>> tags, which seem to be describing nearly the same concept:
>> bicycle_road 
>> created 14:54, 7 August 2010
>> 
>> ‎
>> cyclestreet
>> 
>> created 09:58, 9 May 2018
>> ‎
>>
>>
>> The main difference, as I understand it, is that the bicycle road is for
>> bicycles only, unless there are additional signs, whereas
>> on a cycle street "cars are also allowed. However, this car use is
>> limited by the character and layout of the cyclestreet"
>>
>> To make the confusion perfect, both wiki pages use the same (German) road
>> sign as illustration for the situation in Germany.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_244_-_Beginn_der_Fahrradstra%C3%9Fe,_StVO_1997.svg
>>
>> Taginfo:
>> bicycle_road=yes
>>  7906
>> cyclestreet=yes
>>  4076
>>
>> Volker
>> Padova, Italy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

2020-08-26 Thread Volker Schmidt
Yes, there is a legal difference

*bicycle_road*
A German "Fahrradstrasse" (which is the prototype on which this tag seems
to be modeled) is a road exclusively  for bicycles in the sense that
carries the the sign "Fahrradstrasse" without addition indicates that the
carriageway of the road is reserved for bicycles, pedestrians, people on
skayes, youn children on bicycles need to use the sidewalk (if available).
lso an implied speed limit of 30km/h applies.
In my opinion the "naked " German Fahrradstrasse is equivalent to
highway=service|residential
vehicle=no
foot=use_sidewalk  or sidewalk=separate if there is a separate sidewalk
bicycle=designated
maxspeed=30
So what do you "save" in tagging with bicycle_road=yes ?
As far as I can see it replaces "vehicle=no" and "bicycle=designated" with
"bicycle_road=yes"
(the speed limit is not part of the the bicycle_road tag nor is there any
indication about pedestrians)

*cyclestreet*
The prototype cycle street seems to be the Belgian "rue cyclable |
fietsstraat" that describes a road that is not wide enough for creating
separate cycle lanes or cycleways, hence the carriageway is shared between
cyclists and motor vehicles. Motor vehicles are not allowed to overtake
bicycles and there is an implicit speed limit of 30km/h

Such a road would be equivalent to
highway=service|residential
foot=use_sidewalk  or sidewalk=separate if there is a separate sidewalk
maxspeed=30
overtaking:motorcar=no (this tagging is not defined in the wiki)
What is the "saving" n using the cyclestreet=yes tagging?
None, as both maxspeed and overtaking restriction are not part of the OSM
tah cyclestreet=yes

Basically I see no need for separate tags like bicycle_road and
cyclestreet, as you can easily describe their properties with existing
tags. Add to this the confusion between the two tags, and then add to the
mix the myriad of variants on the subject in countries other than Germany
and Belgium, respectively.
These two tags should be discouraged.
As that most likely is not possible, maybe we can at least discourage their
"export" to other countries.



On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 at 08:51, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> I am curious is there any difference in practical use of this two tags.
>
> Aug 25, 2020, 12:13 by vosc...@gmail.com:
>
> Hi,
> I have come across a new (to me) street sign In Italy:
> https://italy-cycling-guide.info/tips-advice/riding-in-italy/
> The road is a one-lane residential road on which bicycles and pedestrians
> can circulate.
> I don't know the legal status, however (I am inquiring).
>
> In that contest I have noticed that we have two wiki pages defining two
> tags, which seem to be describing nearly the same concept:
> bicycle_road 
> created 14:54, 7 August 2010
> 
> ‎
> cyclestreet
> 
> created 09:58, 9 May 2018
> ‎
>
>
> The main difference, as I understand it, is that the bicycle road is for
> bicycles only, unless there are additional signs, whereas
> on a cycle street "cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited
> by the character and layout of the cyclestreet"
>
> To make the confusion perfect, both wiki pages use the same (German) road
> sign as illustration for the situation in Germany.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_244_-_Beginn_der_Fahrradstra%C3%9Fe,_StVO_1997.svg
>
> Taginfo:
> bicycle_road=yes
>  7906
> cyclestreet=yes
>  4076
>
> Volker
> Padova, Italy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

2020-08-26 Thread joost schouppe
> > So putting the Dutch and Belgian thing together but not the German, that
> doesn't make much sense.
>
>
> I read this as a suggestion for a third alternative tag?
>
>
N!

:)

Just saying that there's similar concepts that could have had the same main
tag (and different clarifying tags or country-based defaults explained on
the wiki)  or could have had different tags with exact implications; and
that we wound up with a random combination of the two.

As long as cyclestreet is clearly "marketed" as "a tag that has different
implications in different countries", then there really is no practical
issue. The weirdest thing to happen would be if now, say, Finland would use
bicycle_road for something really different than the German logic.
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Re: [Tagging] Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

2020-08-26 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 26. Aug 2020, at 12:35, joost schouppe  wrote:
> 
> So putting the Dutch and Belgian thing together but not the German, that 
> doesn't make much sense.


I read this as a suggestion for a third alternative tag?

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

2020-08-26 Thread joost schouppe
Well, in the Netherlands cyclestreet seems to be a "suggestional" traffic
sign. In Belgium cyclestreet it has a clear legal meaning. In Germany
bicycle_road has a clear (but quite different) legal meaning. So putting
the Dutch and Belgian thing together but not the German, that doesn't make
much sense. There's plenty of discussion on the Dutch forum about this. A
fundamental remark: "apps that use the original German definition will see
the road as forbidden for cars unless otherwise tagged", which does not
make sense in Belgium or Holland.

See e.g.
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=63473
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=709379#p709379
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:The_Netherlands_roads_tagging


Op wo 26 aug. 2020 om 08:51 schreef Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org>:

> I am curious is there any difference in practical use of this two tags.
>
> Aug 25, 2020, 12:13 by vosc...@gmail.com:
>
> Hi,
> I have come across a new (to me) street sign In Italy:
> https://italy-cycling-guide.info/tips-advice/riding-in-italy/
> The road is a one-lane residential road on which bicycles and pedestrians
> can circulate.
> I don't know the legal status, however (I am inquiring).
>
> In that contest I have noticed that we have two wiki pages defining two
> tags, which seem to be describing nearly the same concept:
> bicycle_road 
> created 14:54, 7 August 2010
> 
> ‎
> cyclestreet
> 
> created 09:58, 9 May 2018
> ‎
>
>
> The main difference, as I understand it, is that the bicycle road is for
> bicycles only, unless there are additional signs, whereas
> on a cycle street "cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited
> by the character and layout of the cyclestreet"
>
> To make the confusion perfect, both wiki pages use the same (German) road
> sign as illustration for the situation in Germany.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_244_-_Beginn_der_Fahrradstra%C3%9Fe,_StVO_1997.svg
>
> Taginfo:
> bicycle_road=yes
>  7906
> cyclestreet=yes
>  4076
>
> Volker
> Padova, Italy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


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Re: [Tagging] Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

2020-08-26 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
I am curious is there any difference in practical use of this two tags.

Aug 25, 2020, 12:13 by vosc...@gmail.com:

> Hi,
> I have come across a new (to me) street sign In Italy:
> https://italy-cycling-guide.info/tips-advice/riding-in-italy/
> The road is a one-lane residential road on which bicycles and pedestrians can 
> circulate. 
> I don't know the legal status, however (I am inquiring).
>
> In that contest I have noticed that we have two wiki pages defining two tags, 
> which seem to be describing nearly the same concept:
> bicycle_road >  created 
> > 14:54, 7 August 2010 
> >
>  ‎
> cyclestreet 
> >   created 
> > 09:58, 9 May 2018 
> >
>  ‎ 
>
> The main difference, as I understand it, is that the bicycle road is for 
> bicycles only, unless there are additional signs, whereas
> on a cycle street "cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited by 
> the character and layout of the cyclestreet"
>
> To make the confusion perfect, both wiki pages use the same (German) road 
> sign as illustration for the situation in Germany.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_244_-_Beginn_der_Fahrradstra%C3%9Fe,_StVO_1997.svg
>
> Taginfo:
> bicycle_road <>> => yes 
> >  7906
> cyclestreet <>> => yes 
> >  4076
>
> Volker 
> Padova, Italy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

2020-08-25 Thread joost schouppe
Hi Volker,

I tried to clarify the German bit on the cyclestreet page. It wasn't clear
enough that the German section on cyclestreet had as point to say: "in
Germany cyclestreet=* does not exist, they have bicycle_road instead".
These two concepts maybe could have had the same tag from the start with
just slightly different implications.

Op di 25 aug. 2020 om 12:15 schreef Volker Schmidt :

> Hi,
> I have come across a new (to me) street sign In Italy:
> https://italy-cycling-guide.info/tips-advice/riding-in-italy/
> The road is a one-lane residential road on which bicycles and pedestrians
> can circulate.
> I don't know the legal status, however (I am inquiring).
>
> In that contest I have noticed that we have two wiki pages defining two
> tags, which seem to be describing nearly the same concept:
> bicycle_road 
> created 14:54, 7 August 2010
> ‎
>
> cyclestreet
> 
> created 09:58, 9 May 2018
> ‎
>
>
> The main difference, as I understand it, is that the bicycle road is for
> bicycles only, unless there are additional signs, whereas
> on a cycle street "cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited
> by the character and layout of the cyclestreet"
>
> To make the confusion perfect, both wiki pages use the same (German) road
> sign as illustration for the situation in Germany.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_244_-_Beginn_der_Fahrradstra%C3%9Fe,_StVO_1997.svg
>
> Taginfo:
> bicycle_road=yes
>  7906
> cyclestreet=yes
>  4076
>
> Volker
> Padova, Italy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


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[Tagging] Confusion bicycle_road <> cyclestreet

2020-08-25 Thread Volker Schmidt
Hi,
I have come across a new (to me) street sign In Italy:
https://italy-cycling-guide.info/tips-advice/riding-in-italy/
The road is a one-lane residential road on which bicycles and pedestrians
can circulate.
I don't know the legal status, however (I am inquiring).

In that contest I have noticed that we have two wiki pages defining two
tags, which seem to be describing nearly the same concept:
bicycle_road 
created 14:54,
7 August 2010
‎

cyclestreet

created 09:58,
9 May 2018
‎


The main difference, as I understand it, is that the bicycle road is for
bicycles only, unless there are additional signs, whereas
on a cycle street "cars are also allowed. However, this car use is limited
by the character and layout of the cyclestreet"

To make the confusion perfect, both wiki pages use the same (German) road
sign as illustration for the situation in Germany.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Zeichen_244_-_Beginn_der_Fahrradstra%C3%9Fe,_StVO_1997.svg

Taginfo:
bicycle_road=yes
 7906
cyclestreet=yes 
4076

Volker
Padova, Italy
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