Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-08 Thread Janko Mihelić
This is getting very metaphysical, and tags have been invented to be as
practical as possible for the mapper [1]. If someone sees an old anchor on
the ground, one of the first things that's going to pop into their mind is
historic=anchor. That has happened 40 times, separately by several mappers
all over the world (including me). I just wanted to document this tagging
because it made sense to me.

Historic=memorial + memorial=anchor has been used 20 times, but my tagging
instinct said that maybe it's better to have a use case for anchors that
are not memorials. If people think memorial=anchor is better, that's ok
with me. But i'm not ok with creating a complicated ontology with
tourism=artwork because no one will naturally come to that tag while on the
field. Flowerbeds and fountains are also made just to be nice, but it's not
tagged as artwork, because it doesn't look like artwork, and doesn't quack
like artwork.

Janko

[1] - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Duck_tagging
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Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Paul Allen
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 23:06, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 7. Sep 2020, at 23:51, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > One has a plaque saying it is the birthplace of some important figure.
> > The plaque is a historic memorial, the house it is attached to is just a
> > house (as is the house next door).
>
> we’ll be mapping the plaque anyway


Yep.  Because in that place the plaque is the historic object, not the
house.


> (and we’ll typically not adding information like who has slept in this
> house in 1876 to the building object).
>

I didn't realize John Lennon was born that long ago.

Both houses are probably historic, testimonies of a certain time and
> context (socio economic conditions, style, technology, ...)
>

There is nothing of general historic significance about the house John
Lennon
was born in other than the fact he was born in it.  If we were to open the
tag up to everything that any historian anywhere might collate in statistics
then every house ever built would count as historic.  We need a sense
of proportion here.  And we need to remember that history is just
one Planck time before the present, but most of it goes unrecorded.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 7. Sep 2020, at 23:51, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> One has a plaque saying it is the birthplace of some important figure.
> The plaque is a historic memorial, the house it is attached to is just a
> house (as is the house next door).


we’ll be mapping the plaque anyway (and we’ll typically not adding information 
like who has slept in this house in 1876 to the building object).
Both houses are probably historic, testimonies of a certain time and context 
(socio economic conditions, style, technology, ...) 

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Paul Allen
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 22:41, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 7. Sep 2020, at 23:29, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > It's a memorial or it's not.  If it's not a memorial, and there just
> because it looks
> > nice (somebody else brought up that possibility, not me) it's artwork.
>
> I don’t find a definition of art, work of art, where something like an
> anchor without a story has room. Can you point me to one?
>

It's late, and I'm having difficulty understanding what you're getting at.
So
I've had to guess.

The original poster asked about an anchor that was put in place because it
looked nice, not because it had any historical significance.  I have no idea
if there are any anchors like that, but I've seen all sorts of things (like
chimney pots) placed on the ground for display because they look nice,
so anchors are a possibility.

If it's there solely because it looks nice, the only way I can think of
mapping
it is artwork.  If it's not specially crafted to be displayed then it's not
a sculpture (I'm aware of something specially crafted to look like three
links in a ship's chain so that actually is a sculpture) or an
installation. The
closest type of artwork I can think of to describe a repurposed anchor is
"found art" (also known as "found object" and "objet trouvé").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Found_object  Maybe somebody who
is actually an artist (I'm not) has a better term for "anchor
on display for no other purpose than that it looks nice."

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Paul Allen
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 22:37, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 7. Sep 2020, at 23:23, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > To say that something is historic means that it is important or
> significant
> > in history.
>
> importance and significance are quite relative and I have the impression
> you are imagining the bar much higher than what we usually apply for
> historic.
>

I'm trying to avoid people using historic as a synonym for "old" or for
"disused."
There's more to it than that.  Or should be.

Take two, adjacent terraced houses, identical in appearance because they
were constructed at the same time by the same builder to the same plans.
One has a plaque saying it is the birthplace of some important figure.
The plaque is a historic memorial, the house it is attached to is just a
house (as is the house next door).

>   An anchor or cannon which have nothing special about them and
> > are not commemorating something of historical significance are just
> > artwork.
>
> a cannon which is still in the context where it was once used can always
> be seen as historic,


Yes.  But the original poster was talking about anchors.  Anchors that were
not attached to ships, or the historical object would be the ship itself.


> it doesn’t need to be important or of exceptional significance (e.g. by
> having a plaque attached, being dedicated to something/someone, having
> appeared in a historic text, having belonged to someone famous/powerful,
> etc.).
>

For a cannon, MAYBE.  Often not.  Like the anonymous cannons on the lawns
of US courthouses that could have come from anywhere.  Or be modern
reproductions.

"History" means that it has been recorded in writing.  That's why the time
before
writing was invented is known as "pre-history."  If there is no written
record of its
provenance and significance then it is NOT historic, just old.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 7. Sep 2020, at 23:29, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> It's a memorial or it's not.  If it's not a memorial, and there just because 
> it looks
> nice (somebody else brought up that possibility, not me) it's artwork. 


I don’t find a definition of art, work of art, where something like an anchor 
without a story has room. Can you point me to one?

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 7. Sep 2020, at 23:23, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> To say that something is historic means that it is important or significant
> in history.


importance and significance are quite relative and I have the impression you 
are imagining the bar much higher than what we usually apply for historic. 



>   An anchor or cannon which have nothing special about them and
> are not commemorating something of historical significance are just
> artwork.


a cannon which is still in the context where it was once used can always be 
seen as historic, it doesn’t need to be important or of exceptional 
significance (e.g. by having a plaque attached, being dedicated to 
something/someone, having appeared in a historic text, having belonged to 
someone famous/powerful, etc.).


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Paul Allen
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 22:20, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 7. Sep 2020, at 22:15, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > Possibly tourism=artwork
>
> I’d much rather go for historic=anchor


Why historic=anchor rather than memorial?  I can understand
historic=cannon as it's a standalone item.  Anchors are intended to
be used with a ship attached to them, so an anchor in isolation
is either a memorial or artwork.


> than for tourism=artwork
> these are rarely public art
>

It's a memorial or it's not.  If it's not a memorial, and there just
because it looks
nice (somebody else brought up that possibility, not me) it's artwork.  Use
whichever fits the circumstances best.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Paul Allen
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 21:54, Janko Mihelić  wrote:

> pon, 7. ruj 2020. u 22:15 Paul Allen  napisao je:
>
>> In that case it would not be historic, just a random anchor put there
>> because
>> it looks pretty.  Possibly tourism=artwork, but I'm not sure what would
>> be a suitable artwork_type.  It's not really an installation or a
>> sculpture.
>> It's really "found art" in the broader definition of the term.  Has/had
>> another purpose but has been appropriated as art.
>>
>
> Why do you think it's different from a historic=cannon?
>

Because a cannon might not be historic, either, just a piece of found art.

To say that something is historic means that it is important or significant
in history.  An anchor or cannon which have nothing special about them and
are not commemorating something of historical significance are just
artwork.

Yes, there will be overlaps.  There are always overlaps when we try
to categorize the real world.  Nevertheless, there's a big difference
between an anchor somebody bought at a scrapyard so he could
display it and the anchor that belonged to the famous ship
whatever, sunk in the battle of whatever.

The difference can usually be determined from an accompanying plaque
or sign.  If there is something about the provenance of the object, or
it says what the object commemorates, it's probably historic.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 7. Sep 2020, at 22:15, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> Possibly tourism=artwork


I’d much rather go for historic=anchor than for tourism=artwork 
these are rarely public art 

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Janko Mihelić
pon, 7. ruj 2020. u 22:15 Paul Allen  napisao je:

> In that case it would not be historic, just a random anchor put there
> because
> it looks pretty.  Possibly tourism=artwork, but I'm not sure what would
> be a suitable artwork_type.  It's not really an installation or a
> sculpture.
> It's really "found art" in the broader definition of the term.  Has/had
> another purpose but has been appropriated as art.
>

Why do you think it's different from a historic=cannon?
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Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Paul Allen
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 21:05, Janko Mihelić  wrote:

> pon, 7. ruj 2020. u 21:28 Paul Allen  napisao je:
>
>> Sounds like a memorial to me. So maybe historic=memorial +
>> memorial=anchor.
>>
>
> Anchors are often not a memorial, just an anchor put somewhere because it
> looks nice.
>

In that case it would not be historic, just a random anchor put there
because
it looks pretty.  Possibly tourism=artwork, but I'm not sure what would
be a suitable artwork_type.  It's not really an installation or a sculpture.
It's really "found art" in the broader definition of the term.  Has/had
another purpose but has been appropriated as art.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Janko Mihelić
pon, 7. ruj 2020. u 21:28 Paul Allen  napisao je:

> Sounds like a memorial to me. So maybe historic=memorial +
> memorial=anchor.
>

Anchors are often not a memorial, just an anchor put somewhere because it
looks nice. You can search for images of "anchors on display" [1]. I guess
this would be a better image:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kotwica_SS_Pozna%C5%84.JPG

Most of them aren't even marked, they just stand there. Something like a
historic=cannon [2].

[1] - https://www.google.com/search?q=anchor+on+display=isch
[2] - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:historic%3Dcannon
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Re: [Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Paul Allen
On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 at 20:01, Janko Mihelić  wrote:

> Historic=anchor would be an anchor from a historic ship displayed as a
> public memorial. An example:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arizona_anchor_bolin_plaza.JPG
>

Sounds like a memorial to me. So maybe historic=memorial +
memorial=anchor.

Historic and heritage stuff is rendered in greatest detail by the Historic
Place
map, so it would be an idea to check with them.

-- 
Paul
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[Tagging] Documenting historic=anchor to the historic wiki page

2020-09-07 Thread Janko Mihelić
Historic=anchor would be an anchor from a historic ship displayed as a
public memorial. An example:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Arizona_anchor_bolin_plaza.JPG

There aren't many of these tags right now, 38 in total. I found info on
about 10 of those, and they all fitted the description above.

I intend to put this description and picture on the historic page, in the
Values table:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:historic#Values

 Everybody ok with this?

Janko
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