Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

And we have at least three amenity tags for parkings
amenity=parking
amenity=bicycle_parking
amenity=motorcycle_parking

Aug 8, 2020, 19:10 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>
>> On 8. Aug 2020, at 17:58, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>>
>> Which honestly makes me surprised we have two separate amenities for parking 
>> already, since >> amenity=parking>> , >> access=no>> , >> 
>> bicycle=designated>>  would be equivalent to >> amenity=bicycle_parking>> , 
>> and would make it easier to describe unusual parking situations (like a 
>> parking area that only allowed bicycles and buses to park) more intuitively.
>>
>
>
> this tagging would probably exclude pedestrians from walking through the 
> parking. It is also inconsistent with the definition of amenity=> parking: “> 
>  A place for parking cars“
> It seems pointless to discuss these hypothetical alternative tagging 
> definitions when we all know that if is very unlikely that the definition of 
> a well established tag will be changed completely.
>
>
> Cheers Martin 
>

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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Aug 2020, at 17:58, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> Which honestly makes me surprised we have two separate amenities for parking 
> already, since amenity=parking, access=no, bicycle=designated would be 
> equivalent to amenity=bicycle_parking, and would make it easier to describe 
> unusual parking situations (like a parking area that only allowed bicycles 
> and buses to park) more intuitively.


this tagging would probably exclude pedestrians from walking through the 
parking. It is also inconsistent with the definition of amenity=parking: “ A 
place for parking cars“
It seems pointless to discuss these hypothetical alternative tagging 
definitions when we all know that if is very unlikely that the definition of a 
well established tag will be changed completely.


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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 6:13 AM Jan Michel  wrote:

> On 07.08.20 23:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >> On 7. Aug 2020, at 19:12, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> >> I feel like a data consumer unable to deal with access tagging is
> already broken in advance.
> > although we already use access like tags for parkings it should be noted
> that being allowed to access is different to being allowed to park, in
> general.
>
> The only use of an amenity=parking is to park there, so there is no
> other access that we have to consider. The situation may be different
> for ways and streets on the parking lot, but these are tagged separately
> anyhow. If the whole area is also used for other purposes (like street
> markets), then this is tagged on a spearate object with separate access
> tags.
>

Which honestly makes me surprised we have two separate amenities for
parking already, since amenity=parking, access=no, bicycle=designated would
be equivalent to amenity=bicycle_parking, and would make it easier to
describe unusual parking situations (like a parking area that only allowed
bicycles and buses to park) more intuitively.
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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Jan Michel]

On 08.08.20 15:30, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 8. Aug 2020, at 14:48, Jan Michel 
 wrote:

amenity=parking + vehicle=no + motorcycle=yes + kick_scooter(*)=ye
this doesn’t allow for bicycles to be parked. It also doesn’t seem to be 
a subtype of parking. If it would be just for motorcycles and 
kick_scooters, why not

amenity=motorcycle_parking
kick_scooter=yes ?


Because this gives too many options on how to tag parking for 
kick_scooters depending on what other vehicles are allowed as well:


amenity=parking + kick_scooter = yes
amenity=bicycle_parking + kick_scooter = yes
amenity=motorcycle_parking + kick_scooter = yes
and last but not least the scooter-only parking where none of the three 
options above applies.


That will just be a mess of tags nobody can actually use - orders of 
magnitude worse than having one common tag for all motorized vehicle 
parking and access tags for individual vehicle types.



amenity=small_vehicle_parking  + motorcycle=yes + kick_scooter(*)=yes



not sure what a “small vehicle” is supposed to be. 
Needs to be defined, like any other new tag. What is a 'kick_scooter'? 
With a motor? without a motor? with a tiny seat?
Most likely it will boil down to something like single-tracked, open 
vehicle for two people at most.



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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Aug 2020, at 14:48, Jan Michel  wrote:
> 
>> features, either bicycle or motorcycle and scooter parkings.
> 
> 
> I already proposed two options. You didn't like either.
> 
> amenity=parking + vehicle=no + motorcycle=yes + kick_scooter(*)=ye


this doesn’t allow for bicycles to be parked. It also doesn’t seem to be a 
subtype of parking. If it would be just for motorcycles and kick_scooters, why 
not
amenity=motorcycle_parking
kick_scooter=yes ?

that’s already established and there’s no need to make vehicle=no headstands.


> 
> amenity=small_vehicle_parking  + motorcycle=yes + kick_scooter(*)=yes


not sure what a “small vehicle” is supposed to be. Motorcycles with sidecars? 
Mofas? Cabin scooters? Three wheeled commercial vehicles? Golf carts? Electric 
wheelchairs? Snowmobiles? Small automobiles like smarts? Fiat 500? Will there 
be a definition which makes it possible to understand generically which kind of 
vehicles are permitted and banned, or would it require an infinite yes/no list 
for all kinds of vehicles? Is there a legal correspondence in highway codes 
that you are aware of?

Cheers Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Jan Michel]

On 08.08.20 14:22, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

On 8. Aug 2020, at 13:46, Jan Michel  wrote:
If I just enter 'scooter parking' into Google Image Search, I find plenty 
examples of designated parking areas for both bicycles and scooters combined. 
There are also some moped/mofa parkings that allow (kick-)scooters to be found.

then find a tag for them ;-) (de:Zweiradstellplatz), around here these are 
separate, distinct features, either bicycle or motorcycle and scooter parkings.


I already proposed two options. You didn't like either.

amenity=parking + vehicle=no + motorcycle=yes + kick_scooter(*)=yes

amenity=small_vehicle_parking  + motorcycle=yes + kick_scooter(*)=yes


(*) just a placeholder for the yet-to-be-defined proper tag


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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Aug 2020, at 13:46, Jan Michel  wrote:
> 
> If I just enter 'scooter parking' into Google Image Search, I find plenty 
> examples of designated parking areas for both bicycles and scooters combined. 
> There are also some moped/mofa parkings that allow (kick-)scooters to be 
> found.


then find a tag for them ;-) (de:Zweiradstellplatz), around here these are 
separate, distinct features, either bicycle or motorcycle and scooter parkings.

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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Jan Michel]

On 07.08.20 23:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 7. Aug 2020, at 17:57, Jan Michel  wrote:

I propose to not introduce new top-level keys because they are not flexible 
enough. I'm very well aware that we have parking, bicycle_parking and 
motorcycle_parking already, but it just doesn't scale with the amount of 
different vehicle types.


I don’t see why the tags should be flexible as the parkings aren’t. You cannot 
park a bicycle at a motorcycle parking nor the contrary.


If I just enter 'scooter parking' into Google Image Search, I find 
plenty examples of designated parking areas for both bicycles and 
scooters combined. There are also some moped/mofa parkings that allow 
(kick-)scooters to be found.



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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

At least one in Poland are described as parking, and at least in theory anyone 
may
park an electric scooter there, including private one.

Aug 8, 2020, 03:01 by graemefi...@gmail.com:

> Just to open a different semantic can of worms concerning the spots these 
> hire "scooters" are left ... :-)
>
> Are they "parked"?
>
> To me, I "park" my car in a parking space, come back to it after shopping & 
> drive home, or I "park" my bicycle in a rack at the beach, wrap a chain 
> around the wheel, then come back later, unlock it & ride away ie I retrieve 
> my own "vehicle" at a later stage.
>
> If you've used a hire "scooter" to get from A to B, do you "park" it at B, or 
> do you return it to a hire location / drop off spot? I think it's more 
> correct to say that you simply leave it in a spot where anybody else can use 
> it & when you come back later on, you hope there's one still there for you to 
> use!
>
> Should we possibly be looking at something similar to amentiy=bicycle_rental, 
> ie amenity=scooter_rental?
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=bicycle%20rental
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>

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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Just to open a different semantic can of worms concerning the spots these
hire "scooters" are left ... :-)

Are they "parked"?

To me, I "park" my car in a parking space, come back to it after shopping &
drive home, or I "park" my bicycle in a rack at the beach, wrap a chain
around the wheel, then come back later, unlock it & ride away ie I retrieve
my own "vehicle" at a later stage.

If you've used a hire "scooter" to get from A to B, do you "park" it at B,
or do you return it to a hire location / drop off spot? I think it's more
correct to say that you simply leave it in a spot where anybody else can
use it & when you come back later on, you hope there's one still there for
you to use!

Should we possibly be looking at something similar to
amentiy=bicycle_rental, ie amenity=scooter_rental?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=bicycle%20rental

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Aug 2020, at 20:14, Jan Michel  wrote:
> 
> It might be useful to have two different top-level amenity tags for parking 
> lots for large and small vehicles, but not one tag for every type of vehicle.


I would say it depends on the kind of parkings that are to be mapped. If there 
are mixed parking areas for different vehicle types, your approach is fine, but 
if there are mostly dedicated areas for just a specific vehicle type, it would 
seem unnecessarily complicated to have to use many tags just to say something 
is a bicycle parking, also because if you’re in an automobile you wouldn’t want 
to find them and when you’re with a bike you would not want to find the other, 
having them all mixed up in one or two tags, just to later having to filter 
through all those different kind of vehicle parkings, with probably also lots 
of additional tags missing, just to finally reduce it to the few specific 
parkings that you are interested in, makes life more complicated for everybody 
and will also lead to errors based on incomplete information, which could have 
been completely avoided by using a dedicated tag for a specific kind of thing.


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Aug 2020, at 19:12, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> I feel like a data consumer unable to deal with access tagging is already 
> broken in advance.


although we already use access like tags for parkings it should be noted that 
being allowed to access is different to being allowed to park, in general.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Aug 2020, at 17:57, Jan Michel  wrote:
> 
> I propose to not introduce new top-level keys because they are not flexible 
> enough. I'm very well aware that we have parking, bicycle_parking and 
> motorcycle_parking already, but it just doesn't scale with the amount of 
> different vehicle types.


I don’t see why the tags should be flexible as the parkings aren’t. You cannot 
park a bicycle at a motorcycle parking nor the contrary. If we used the same 
top level tag for both we would only risk to create false expectations. 
Flexibility is fine if the details are just additional information, not if it’s 
the main information. E.g. it is logical that we did not create different top 
level tags for guarded parkings vs. unguarded parkings, or free parkings vs. 
paid parkings, because you can park your automobile in both. The situation is 
different for bicycle parking vs. automobile parking.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 07/08/2020 11.55, Jan Michel wrote:

Note that we also lack a proper way to tag parking lots for trucks.


This sounds like a good candidate for expanding capacity:* / 
parking_space=*, at least in the case of mixed-use lots. In general, I 
agree it would be good to have a better way to tag parking areas for 
specific vehicle types.


BTW, how are hitching rails (i.e. "horse parking") mapped? ;-)

--
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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Jan Michel]

On 07.08.20 19:09, Paul Johnson wrote:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
> wrote:

Aug 7, 2020, 18:05 by ba...@ursamundi.org
:
On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 3:27 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>>
wrote:
amenity=parking + vehicle=no + electric_scooter=yes
seems like a terrible idea to me
Why?  That's actually pretty good.  amenity=parking is for motor
vehicle parking, electric scooters are a part of that.
Mostly because it will break all current users of amenity=parking
and at least for me place to place
electric scooter is not the same object as a car parking (in the
same way as bicycle parking
is not the same object as a car parking).
I feel like a data consumer unable to deal with access tagging is 
already broken in advance.


+1 from my side.

It might be useful to have two different top-level amenity tags for 
parking lots for large and small vehicles, but not one tag for every 
type of vehicle.


Any new tagging scheme must be able to support parking lots that are 
dedicated to several types of vehicles - at least those of similar size.
We must be able to tag a shared motorcycle/moped/electric scooter 
parking area.


If we really need a new top-level tag, it has to be something like
*amenity=small_vehicle_parking* and comprise all of motorcycles, moped, 
mofa, speed_pedelec, scooters (of any kind) and so on. Further details 
could then be given by access tags to specify which kind of vehicles can 
be parked there.




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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 12:00 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Aug 7, 2020, 18:05 by ba...@ursamundi.org:
>
> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 3:27 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> amenity=parking + vehicle=no + electric_scooter=yes
> seems like a terrible idea to me
>
>
> Why?  That's actually pretty good.  amenity=parking is for motor vehicle
> parking, electric scooters are a part of that.
>
> Mostly because it will break all current users of amenity=parking and at
> least for me place to place
> electric scooter is not the same object as a car parking (in the same way
> as bicycle parking
> is not the same object as a car parking).
>

I feel like a data consumer unable to deal with access tagging is already
broken in advance.
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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

TLDR:
electric_kick_scooter seems best and I will probably use it if no better 
alternative will appear


Aug 7, 2020, 17:55 by j...@mueschelsoft.de:

> Hi,
> I agree that we need some way to tag those parking spaces and in general 
> parking spaces for specific types of vehicles.
> I have two major comments here:
>
> - a top level tag like amenity=small_electric_vehicle_parking does not allow 
> for any kind of parking that allows different kinds of vehicles in the same 
> place. E.g. if also mopeds are allowed somewhere, it's impossible to tag the 
> area.
> I propose to not introduce new top-level keys because they are not flexible 
> enough. I'm very well aware that we have parking, bicycle_parking and 
> motorcycle_parking already, but it just doesn't scale with the amount of 
> different vehicle types. Note that we also lack a proper way to tag parking 
> lots for trucks.
>
What would be alternative? I see that is some (hopefully rare) cases it would 
be problematic
and I see no better alternative.

> - Please don't use the word 'scooter'. It's completely ambiguous because 
> several languages use the same word for kick-scooters (electric or not) and 
> mofa/moped like vehicles.
>
Is there any viable alternative? electric_motorized_scooter? 
electric_kick_scooter?

Because nothing in 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ElectricBicyclesAndScooters#Tag_Summary
is better than electric_scooter

electric_kick_scooter seems best and I will probably use it if no better 
alternative will appear

> There was some discussion here on the mailing list about the proposal for 
> tags for small electric vehicles a while ago and we did not manage to get to 
> a conclusion about proper names of the vehicles yet.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ElectricBicyclesAndScooters
> We should try to get these names sorted first and then use the same names for 
> parking spaces.
>
Well, I will select one of worst names soon and start using it, because bicycle 
sharing in my city
collapsed and all bicycle rental locations got reused as  parking places.

So comments are welcome (and it is always possible to retag), but *something* 
will be
used soon.


> On 07.08.20 10:27, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:
>
>> Electric scooter parkings started to appear in Poland.
>>
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ParkingHulajn%C3%B3g.jpg
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Parking_Hulajnogi.jpg
>>
>> (text on traffic sign is "electric scooters")
>>
>> How it should be tagged?
>>
>> amenity=small_electric_vehicle_parking ?
>>
>> amenity=electric_scooter_parking ?
>>
>> amenity=parking + vehicle=no + small_electric_vehicle=yes
>> or
>> amenity=parking + vehic le=no + electric_scooter=yes
>> seems like a terrible idea to me
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Aug 7, 2020, 18:05 by ba...@ursamundi.org:

>
>
> On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 3:27 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <> 
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>> amenity=parking + vehicle=no + electric_scooter=yes
>> seems like a terrible idea to me
>>
>
> Why?  That's actually pretty good.  amenity=parking is for motor vehicle 
> parking, electric scooters are a part of that. 
>
Mostly because it will break all current users of amenity=parking and at least 
for me place to place
electric scooter is not the same object as a car parking (in the same way as 
bicycle parking
is not the same object as a car parking).
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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 3:27 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> amenity=parking + vehicle=no + electric_scooter=yes
> seems like a terrible idea to me
>

Why?  That's actually pretty good.  amenity=parking is for motor vehicle
parking, electric scooters are a part of that.
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Re: [Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Matthew Woehlke]

On 07/08/2020 04.27, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging wrote:

Electric scooter parkings started to appear in Poland.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ParkingHulajn%C3%B3g.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Parking_Hulajnogi.jpg

(text on traffic sign is "electric scooters")

How it should be tagged?

amenity=small_electric_vehicle_parking ?

amenity=electric_scooter_parking ?


IMHO, something along those lines. Your examples appear to be very much 
in line with amenity=motorcycle_parking or amenity=bicycle_parking.



amenity=parking + vehicle=no + small_electric_vehicle=yes
or
amenity=parking + vehicle=no + electric_scooter=yes
seems like a terrible idea to me


To the extent these are not part of a parking lot that includes parking 
for other vehicles, I would agree.


--
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[Tagging] Electric scooter parking

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Electric scooter parkings started to appear in Poland.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ParkingHulajn%C3%B3g.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Parking_Hulajnogi.jpg

(text on traffic sign is "electric scooters")

How it should be tagged?

amenity=small_electric_vehicle_parking ?

amenity=electric_scooter_parking ?

amenity=parking + vehicle=no + small_electric_vehicle=yes
or
amenity=parking + vehicle=no + electric_scooter=yes
seems like a terrible idea to me
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