Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
Am 02.02.2015 um 23:28 schrieb Andy Mabbett: > On 22 January 2015 at 18:00, fly wrote: > >> Anyway, I do not know a single shop in my area which only sells them so >> shop=* will never fit. > > "Never"? I'm reminded of the maxim that "the singular of data is not > anecdote". > > (There are several such shops in my home city.) Was this really that misunderstood-able ? Sure, this sence was writing in a subjective manner. Did not want to say that there are no such shops but rather that I need subtags or a different key in order to tag shops which offer them. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
On 23 January 2015 at 02:43, John F. Eldredge wrote: > my understanding is that the electronic cigarette contains a battery-powered > heater and a reservoir of nicotine-containing liquid. Some are designed to > be thrown away once the battery power and/or liquid are used up, More environmentally-damaging stupidity:-( -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
On 22 January 2015 at 18:00, fly wrote: > Anyway, I do not know a single shop in my area which only sells them so > shop=* will never fit. "Never"? I'm reminded of the maxim that "the singular of data is not anecdote". (There are several such shops in my home city.) -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
On 01/02/2015, Tac Tacelosky wrote: > Another legitimate terms for these shops is a "vape shop", and the practice > of using any sort of electronic cigarette is now referred to as "vaping". > This is a better term than "smoking", as the product emits vapors, not > smoke. > > We are enthusiastic about seeing this term standardized, as many > jurisdictions do not license or regulate vape shops in the same way they do > places that sell cigarettes (and thus "e-cigarette" is a confusing term). > Our research is often about tobacco shops, and vape shops, because they're > not licensed, introduce a new wrinkle. "vape" is not as established as the various forms of "electronic_cigarette", I don't think it brings any clarity in the OSM usecase. Off-topic non-OSM: Sellers of electronic cigarettes have been playing a naming game to ensure that they are not classified as tobacco, to avoid the harsh tobacco laws and taxes. But, as less harmfull as this product may be, they're still an addictive nicotin-based drug with unwitting consumers. The legislation really should have started by treating them the same as classic cigarettes and *then* loosen the rules, not the other way around. But the e-cig lobby is visibly still playing the naming game everywhere... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
Another legitimate terms for these shops is a "vape shop", and the practice of using any sort of electronic cigarette is now referred to as "vaping". This is a better term than "smoking", as the product emits vapors, not smoke. We are enthusiastic about seeing this term standardized, as many jurisdictions do not license or regulate vape shops in the same way they do places that sell cigarettes (and thus "e-cigarette" is a confusing term). Our research is often about tobacco shops, and vape shops, because they're not licensed, introduce a new wrinkle. Tac On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: > On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:02 AM, Dave F. wrote: > >> Hi >> >> A shop that solely sells electronic cigarettes has been added locally. I >> guess this type of product will be on the increase so I think it's best to >> clarify unified tag, if there's ever been such a thing in OSM :-) Checking >> Tag-info it's 8/6 in favour of electronic_cigarettes over e-cigarettes. >> >> To me, electronic_cigarettes is clearer & should be used, but I thought >> it best to discuss first. I don't smoke, are all these power based? >> > > As far as I am aware, yes, all e-cigarettes contain batteries. > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:02 AM, Dave F. wrote: > Hi > > A shop that solely sells electronic cigarettes has been added locally. I > guess this type of product will be on the increase so I think it's best to > clarify unified tag, if there's ever been such a thing in OSM :-) Checking > Tag-info it's 8/6 in favour of electronic_cigarettes over e-cigarettes. > > To me, electronic_cigarettes is clearer & should be used, but I thought it > best to discuss first. I don't smoke, are all these power based? > As far as I am aware, yes, all e-cigarettes contain batteries. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
How about "e-bacconist"? Actually, I'm not seriously recommending it. I thought I had just made up something new and unique, albeit tongue-in-cheek. However, I just googled it and it appears to be a thing. Andrew ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
On 01/22/2015 08:02 AM, Dave F. wrote: Hi A shop that solely sells electronic cigarettes has been added locally. I guess this type of product will be on the increase so I think it's best to clarify unified tag, if there's ever been such a thing in OSM :-) Checking Tag-info it's 8/6 in favour of electronic_cigarettes over e-cigarettes. To me, electronic_cigarettes is clearer & should be used, but I thought it best to discuss first. I don't smoke, are all these power based? I don't smoke either, but my understanding is that the electronic cigarette contains a battery-powered heater and a reservoir of nicotine-containing liquid. Some are designed to be thrown away once the battery power and/or liquid are used up, others can have both the battery and liquid replaced. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
On 1/22/15 23:13 , fly wrote: No, but it is common sence to introduce tags in proposal name space and once they are in common use accept them because of it use. Well, you can go ahead and create dozens of proposals that will go nowhere. I have completely given up on that process. It will be discussed here for 1-2 days and then will be forgotten. (I even asked for feedback for more feedback a few days ago... nothing). I'm not going to waste my time with that anymore when it's always the same few people who make any tag page edits in the Wiki anyway. If someone does not like "in use" and prefers "proposed", fine go ahead and write it. Don't like the tag at all: Create a proposal for an alternative. But my time is limited and I rather have stuff documented so other mappers can find it and we don't have 10x different tags with slighly different meanings. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
On 22/01/2015, fly wrote: The wiki page is very recent with only two contributors. I wouldn't be surprised if "e-cigarette" in the db was also contributed by no more than 1-2 mappers. I suggest contacting them to make sure that they are ok with "e_cigarette", and then make the change to wiki and db. >> >> There are at least 30 mappers who have used shop=e-cigarette. Almost >> all of them started using this tag *after* user StephaneP imported >> about 80 e-cigarette shops in France. My hunch about few mapper was due to the spelling looking wrong to me, and the many variations. Thanks for checking. >> I also think that e-cigarette would be better than e_cigarette, as the >> - does not represent a space, and "e-cigarette" is a regular English >> word, used for instance in newspapers. > > No doubt about the spelling but still prefer a tag without abbreviation > and advertising background. So call it by proper name. In my case > electronic_cigarette=yes. I always spelled it "ecigarette" in my mind, but what do I know ? Googling and duckducking show all 3 variations to be fairly common. But they're all kind of slang/marketing terms (like "e-cig"), so I think that electronic_cigarette is a better fit for osm. FWIW, that's what wikipedia uses too. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
Am 22.01.2015 um 19:43 schrieb Matthijs Melissen: > On 22 January 2015 at 18:00, fly wrote: >> Well the first page should be under proposal and it should not be listed >> under shop or if only under some proposal paragraph > > Only six shop types have been approved by the wiki/voting process: > bakery, baby_care, second_hand, seafood, bookmaker, and lottery (and > seafood is questionable due to not having the required number of > votes). > > Do you suggest to list all other shop types, including well-known ones > such as shop=supermarket, as 'under proposal'? No, but it is common sence to introduce tags in proposal name space and once they are in common use accept them because of it use. >>> The wiki page is very recent with only two contributors. I wouldn't be >>> surprised if "e-cigarette" in the db was also contributed by no more >>> than 1-2 mappers. I suggest contacting them to make sure that they are >>> ok with "e_cigarette", and then make the change to wiki and db. > > There are at least 30 mappers who have used shop=e-cigarette. Almost > all of them started using this tag *after* user StephaneP imported > about 80 e-cigarette shops in France. > > I also think that e-cigarette would be better than e_cigarette, as the > - does not represent a space, and "e-cigarette" is a regular English > word, used for instance in newspapers. No doubt about the spelling but still prefer a tag without abbreviation and advertising background. So call it by proper name. In my case electronic_cigarette=yes. Cheers ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
On 22 January 2015 at 18:00, fly wrote: > Well the first page should be under proposal and it should not be listed > under shop or if only under some proposal paragraph Only six shop types have been approved by the wiki/voting process: bakery, baby_care, second_hand, seafood, bookmaker, and lottery (and seafood is questionable due to not having the required number of votes). Do you suggest to list all other shop types, including well-known ones such as shop=supermarket, as 'under proposal'? >> The wiki page is very recent with only two contributors. I wouldn't be >> surprised if "e-cigarette" in the db was also contributed by no more >> than 1-2 mappers. I suggest contacting them to make sure that they are >> ok with "e_cigarette", and then make the change to wiki and db. There are at least 30 mappers who have used shop=e-cigarette. Almost all of them started using this tag *after* user StephaneP imported about 80 e-cigarette shops in France. I also think that e-cigarette would be better than e_cigarette, as the - does not represent a space, and "e-cigarette" is a regular English word, used for instance in newspapers. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
On 22/01/2015, Andreas Goss wrote: >> Using "-" instead of "_" goes against a very established tagging practice. > > Only for whitespace as far as I know. So I don't see a issue here. That surprises me, but looking at a dump of Ireland (taginfo search is too coarse, so I used some local data I had) there does seem to be some cases, namely "semi-detached" and "multi-storey". I wanted to search the british isles extract, but that's taking ages to process. I stand corrected. > I would even say using _ is wrong. > > e_cigarette => "e cigarette" > e-cigarette => "e-cigarette" It's not at all clear that "e-cigarette" is more common outside osm than "e cigarette" or "ecigarette", as a google search will show you. On 22/01/2015, fly wrote: > Is it really to much typing to use electronic_cigarettes ? I don't think so, I'd be happy to use the more verbose, less marketing, less varied "electronic_cigarette" (singular, just because there's no more reason to make it plural than any other shop=* value... but it's a nitpick and I'm not going to argue about it if people feel otherwise). > Anyway, I do not know a single shop in my area which only sells them so > shop=* will never fit. I know a few that litterally sell just that. It's probably just a trend (anyone knows of a shop that only sells cigarettes ?) but a lot of them exist today. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
Hello, Le 22/01/2015 17:50, Andreas Goss a écrit : I just created the page, because the tag was used (TagInfo), but not documented. See: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Undocumented_Tags And I added some more explanations on it because it was marked as undocumented. The added elements are common sense or based on what is already present in the database. I don't have any opinion on if the value is correct or should be changed ;) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
Am 22.01.2015 um 16:22 schrieb moltonel 3x Combo: > On 22/01/2015, althio wrote: >> Existing pages: value "e-cigarette" is referenced in the wiki. >> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3De-cigarette >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop#Others Well the first page should be under proposal and it should not be listed under shop or if only under some proposal paragraph > Using "-" instead of "_" goes against a very established tagging practice. already answered > The wiki page is very recent with only two contributors. I wouldn't be > surprised if "e-cigarette" in the db was also contributed by no more > than 1-2 mappers. I suggest contacting them to make sure that they are > ok with "e_cigarette", and then make the change to wiki and db. +1 Is it really to much typing to use electronic_cigarettes ? Anyway, I do not know a single shop in my area which only sells them so shop=* will never fit. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
Using "-" instead of "_" goes against a very established tagging practice. Only for whitespace as far as I know. So I don't see a issue here. I would even say using _ is wrong. e_cigarette => "e cigarette" e-cigarette => "e-cigarette" The wiki page is very recent with only two contributors. I wouldn't be surprised if "e-cigarette" in the db was also contributed by no more than 1-2 mappers. I suggest contacting them to make sure that they are ok with "e_cigarette", and then make the change to wiki and db. I just created the page, because the tag was used (TagInfo), but not documented. See: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Undocumented_Tags __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
On 22/01/2015 15:22, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: On 22/01/2015, althio wrote: Existing pages: value "e-cigarette" is referenced in the wiki. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3De-cigarette http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop#Others Using "-" instead of "_" goes against a very established tagging practice. -1 The underscore character is widely substituted for the space character in tag keys and values, but I think the hyphen is considered OK. For the avoidance of doubt, in English you would write 'electronic cigarette' (with a space) or 'e-cigarette' (with a hyphen), but not 'e cigarette' (with a space). -- Steve --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
>> Existing pages: value "e-cigarette" is referenced in the wiki. >> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3De-cigarette >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop#Others > > The wiki page is very recent with only two contributors. I wouldn't be > surprised if "e-cigarette" in the db was also contributed by no more > than 1-2 mappers. I suggest contacting them to make sure that they are > ok with "e_cigarette", and then make the change to wiki and db. Indeed. I wanted to point to existing pages to explain the apparent choice of "e-cigarette" in taginfo. Also discussion on the Talk:page should be good starting point for a new proposal. > Using "-" instead of "_" goes against a very established tagging practice. I was wondering. Could you confirm that "-" is avoided in tags? It is not referenced at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Any_tags_you_like#Characters > To me, electronic_cigarettes is clearer & should be used You will have to decide if a common abbreviation is acceptable. [electronic_ OR e- OR e_] And as you noticed, singular vs plural. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
> Am 22.01.2015 um 15:02 schrieb Dave F. : > > To me, electronic_cigarettes is clearer & should be used, +1 cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
On 22/01/2015, althio wrote: > Existing pages: value "e-cigarette" is referenced in the wiki. > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3De-cigarette > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop#Others Using "-" instead of "_" goes against a very established tagging practice. The wiki page is very recent with only two contributors. I wouldn't be surprised if "e-cigarette" in the db was also contributed by no more than 1-2 mappers. I suggest contacting them to make sure that they are ok with "e_cigarette", and then make the change to wiki and db. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
Existing pages: value "e-cigarette" is referenced in the wiki. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3De-cigarette http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop#Others On 22 January 2015 at 15:43, Dave F. wrote: > Ah, As normal cigarettes are sold in multiples I didn't think of searching > for the singular, but I guess people only buy one of these electronic types. > > Dave F. > > > On 22/01/2015 14:16, Matthijs Melissen wrote: >> >> On 22 January 2015 at 14:02, Dave F. wrote: >>> >>> A shop that solely sells electronic cigarettes has been added locally. I >>> guess this type >>> of product will be on the increase so I think it's best to clarify >>> unified tag, if there's ever >>> been such a thing in OSM :-) >> >> Yes, I also think this is one of the more common shops that has no >> clear defined tag. >> >>> Checking Tag-info it's 8/6 in favour of electronic_cigarettes over >>> e-cigarettes. >> >> Currently, the most common tag is shop=e-cigarette: >> >> e-cigarette x170 >> e_cigarette x10 >> electronic_cigarettes x8 >> electronic_cigarette x4 >> e-cigarettes x6 >> >>> To me, electronic_cigarettes is clearer & should be used, but I thought >>> it best to discuss first. I don't smoke, are all these power based? >> >> I understand your argument in favour of shop=electronic_cigarettes. If >> you think it's worth it, feel free to start a proposal to change the >> name. >> >> -- Matthijs >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > http://www.avast.com > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
Ah, As normal cigarettes are sold in multiples I didn't think of searching for the singular, but I guess people only buy one of these electronic types. Dave F. On 22/01/2015 14:16, Matthijs Melissen wrote: On 22 January 2015 at 14:02, Dave F. wrote: A shop that solely sells electronic cigarettes has been added locally. I guess this type of product will be on the increase so I think it's best to clarify unified tag, if there's ever been such a thing in OSM :-) Yes, I also think this is one of the more common shops that has no clear defined tag. Checking Tag-info it's 8/6 in favour of electronic_cigarettes over e-cigarettes. Currently, the most common tag is shop=e-cigarette: e-cigarette x170 e_cigarette x10 electronic_cigarettes x8 electronic_cigarette x4 e-cigarettes x6 To me, electronic_cigarettes is clearer & should be used, but I thought it best to discuss first. I don't smoke, are all these power based? I understand your argument in favour of shop=electronic_cigarettes. If you think it's worth it, feel free to start a proposal to change the name. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
On 22 January 2015 at 14:02, Dave F. wrote: > A shop that solely sells electronic cigarettes has been added locally. I > guess this type > of product will be on the increase so I think it's best to clarify unified > tag, if there's ever > been such a thing in OSM :-) Yes, I also think this is one of the more common shops that has no clear defined tag. > Checking Tag-info it's 8/6 in favour of electronic_cigarettes over > e-cigarettes. Currently, the most common tag is shop=e-cigarette: e-cigarette x170 e_cigarette x10 electronic_cigarettes x8 electronic_cigarette x4 e-cigarettes x6 > To me, electronic_cigarettes is clearer & should be used, but I thought it > best to discuss first. I don't smoke, are all these power based? I understand your argument in favour of shop=electronic_cigarettes. If you think it's worth it, feel free to start a proposal to change the name. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?
Hi A shop that solely sells electronic cigarettes has been added locally. I guess this type of product will be on the increase so I think it's best to clarify unified tag, if there's ever been such a thing in OSM :-) Checking Tag-info it's 8/6 in favour of electronic_cigarettes over e-cigarettes. To me, electronic_cigarettes is clearer & should be used, but I thought it best to discuss first. I don't smoke, are all these power based? Dave F. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
