Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street vendors

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

old style:
https://www.scattidigusto.it/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Yaluz-chiosco-mercato-Garbatella-Roma.jpg

even older but different structure (single building):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-J5az9ofXSIQ/UVgQRJwwenI/wu8/vFdrpK5JwC0/s1600/roma-farmers-market-testaccio.jpg

new style
radical chic (single structure)
https://www.theromanpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/banco50-marco09_mg_2959-38.jpg

new, common type:
https://ilcaffe.tv/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/10-120638-145-53.jpg___
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street vendors

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8 Nov 2022, at 08:15, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> I mapped some of similar shop=greengrocer (assigned space on tables) with
> shop=greengrocer street_vendor=yes
> 
> Outside their operating hours you will just see empty tables with roofs over 
> them


situation is different here, it is a fenced area with permanent, light 
buildings, (huts), open Monday to Saturday all day, but when they close they 
close some blinds and it becomes a closed volume 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street vendors

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

There are also places with someone operating shop from their truck.

They would travel on assigned times through valleys and stop in from of each 
house.

They would sell (at very slight markup) products, allowing people to travel 
just 50m-200m
from their house rather than getting kilometres to shop in the village center.

In both cases I would be dubious about mapping their presence as it is 
extremely short
(and mapping such selling location in front of every single house in valleys 
would
be quite silly and misleading, I think)


Nov 7, 2022, 22:58 by graemefi...@gmail.com:

> Another version of sort of a street-vendor that I was wondering about is 
> mobile food vans.
>
> They drive into a site (building site, warehouse complex etc) at morning tea 
> time, blow their horn, stay for 15-20 minutes, then leave & come back at 
> lunch time.
>
> Are they a street vendor?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 at 05:57, Volker Schmidt <> vosc...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>> Just to make the list complete:
>> Around here (or at least in my city and nearby towns) we have regular open 
>> air markets with assigned locations for specific stalls.
>> Do we already have a mapping approach to that type of stalls? (I couldn't 
>> find one).
>> If we really don't have one already, it might be worth looking at how to map 
>> stalls in general as I cudl see a lot of similarities.  
>> I do part of my shopping in such markets, and I go to specific stalls for 
>> specific goods.
>>
>> Il giorno lun 7 nov 2022 alle ore 17:03 Joseph Eisenberg <>> 
>> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> > ha scritto:
>>
>>> I disagree with classing if all “street vendors” and one feature.
>>>
>>> This proposal seems to assume conditions in contemporary Europe, where 
>>> shops are usually located in permanent buildings due to climate conditions.
>>>
>>> In many subtropical and tropical regions the air temperature is never cold, 
>>> so a fully enclosed permanent building with walls and heating is not very 
>>> necessary.
>>>
>>> In this case many “street vendors” will have a tent and some storage which 
>>> stays at a certain place, but is closed up at night. In that regards it is 
>>> similar to a shop which is closed up with a metal gate at night, making it 
>>> poorly visible except during opening hours.
>>>
>>> But consider shop=kiosk - in North America these are often small stands on 
>>> a sidewalk of pedestrian street or mall, with one person wgo sells 
>>> newspapers, snacks etc to pedestrians, functioning quite like a common kind 
>>> of street vendor, except that they are in a tiny shed. Is it really better 
>>> to have a totally different way of tagging a similar business which instead 
>>> uses a mobile push-cart or a tricycle instead?
>>>
>>> In Southeast Asia, many of the businesses that Westerners might call street 
>>> vendors sell newly cooked food, thus they are more like amenity=fast_food - 
>>> and often an enclosed eatery will have only the kitchen indoors, with 
>>> customers eating outside under a canopy.
>>>
>>> Even here in Oregon, in the United States, we have small restaurants which 
>>> are ambiguous under this proposal: they are “food carts” because they are 
>>> small kitchens in trailers with wheels, which can be moved by attaching 
>>> them to a truck. But usually they are semi-permanently installed on rented 
>>> private land, with the landowner providing hook-ups for electricity and 
>>> water, and usually covered seating with a canopy and picnic tables. So 
>>> while they look similar to at more mobile “food truck” (which has its own 
>>> engine and drivers seat, and thus can be moved every day) they are more 
>>> permanent.
>>>
>>> Rather than approving this proposal I would recommend more use of property 
>>> tags. The existing street_vendor=yes tag is probably best, but building=no 
>>> is also common (10k uses) and makes it clear that a feature is not a 
>>> building. 
>>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/building=no
>>>
>>> - Joseph Eisenberg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 9:31 PM >>> map...@t-online.de>>>  <>>> 
>>> map...@t-online.de>>> > wrote:
>>>

 Hi all,


  


 I  propose to deprecate street_vendor=* and to tag mappable street 
 vendors with amenity=street_vendor + vending=* + opening_hours=* instead.





 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_vendors





 Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.


  


 Cheers,


  


 Freetz


  




 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street vendors

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Nov 7, 2022, 23:43 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 7 Nov 2022, at 20:57, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>>
>> If we really don't have one already, it might be worth looking at how to map 
>> stalls in general as I cudl see a lot of similarities.
>>
>
>
> I mapped some of them with shop tags, e.g. shop=butcher shop=greengrocer 
> shop=florist shop=seafood
>
I mapped some of similar shop=greengrocer (assigned space on tables) with
shop=greengrocer street_vendor=yes

Outside their operating hours you will just see empty tables with roofs over 
them

See 
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.0577089,19.9489765,3a,34.3y,256.07h,86.78t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn2XHi-4s_3Wj04dLfs4MJg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6723283136#map=19/50.05763/19.94947 


(I wanted to map each seller with constant presence with their name and exact
location, and exact opening hours, but I had no time for that. 
For now it kind of approximates situation but at leat gives approximate info

nearby famous food truck is better mapped:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2910306864#map=19/50.05859/19.94949 


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kie%C5%82baski+z+Ro%C5%BCna+Pod+Hal%C4%85+Targow%C4%85/@50.0579891,19.9487817,19z/data=!4m12!1m6!3m5!1s0x47165b15ba6d6e31:0xa3f63eac8bf35f1d!2sMarket+Hall!8m2!3d50.0579727!4d19.9486499!3m4!1s0x47165b15c9b031b7:0x4e4bb61683d84a0a!8m2!3d50.0584563!4d19.9485406?hl=en
)
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street vendors

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7 Nov 2022, at 20:57, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> If we really don't have one already, it might be worth looking at how to map 
> stalls in general as I cudl see a lot of similarities. 


I mapped some of them with shop tags, e.g. shop=butcher shop=greengrocer 
shop=florist shop=seafood
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street vendors

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Another version of sort of a street-vendor that I was wondering about is
mobile food vans.

They drive into a site (building site, warehouse complex etc) at morning
tea time, blow their horn, stay for 15-20 minutes, then leave & come back
at lunch time.

Are they a street vendor?

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 8 Nov 2022 at 05:57, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> Just to make the list complete:
> Around here (or at least in my city and nearby towns) we have regular open
> air markets with assigned locations for specific stalls.
> Do we already have a mapping approach to that type of stalls? (I couldn't
> find one).
> If we really don't have one already, it might be worth looking at how to
> map stalls in general as I cudl see a lot of similarities.
> I do part of my shopping in such markets, and I go to specific stalls for
> specific goods.
>
> Il giorno lun 7 nov 2022 alle ore 17:03 Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> I disagree with classing if all “street vendors” and one feature.
>>
>> This proposal seems to assume conditions in contemporary Europe, where
>> shops are usually located in permanent buildings due to climate conditions.
>>
>> In many subtropical and tropical regions the air temperature is never
>> cold, so a fully enclosed permanent building with walls and heating is not
>> very necessary.
>>
>> In this case many “street vendors” will have a tent and some storage
>> which stays at a certain place, but is closed up at night. In that regards
>> it is similar to a shop which is closed up with a metal gate at night,
>> making it poorly visible except during opening hours.
>>
>> But consider shop=kiosk - in North America these are often small stands
>> on a sidewalk of pedestrian street or mall, with one person wgo sells
>> newspapers, snacks etc to pedestrians, functioning quite like a common kind
>> of street vendor, except that they are in a tiny shed. Is it really better
>> to have a totally different way of tagging a similar business which instead
>> uses a mobile push-cart or a tricycle instead?
>>
>> In Southeast Asia, many of the businesses that Westerners might call
>> street vendors sell newly cooked food, thus they are more like
>> amenity=fast_food - and often an enclosed eatery will have only the kitchen
>> indoors, with customers eating outside under a canopy.
>>
>> Even here in Oregon, in the United States, we have small restaurants
>> which are ambiguous under this proposal: they are “food carts” because they
>> are small kitchens in trailers with wheels, which can be moved by attaching
>> them to a truck. But usually they are semi-permanently installed on rented
>> private land, with the landowner providing hook-ups for electricity and
>> water, and usually covered seating with a canopy and picnic tables. So
>> while they look similar to at more mobile “food truck” (which has its own
>> engine and drivers seat, and thus can be moved every day) they are more
>> permanent.
>>
>> Rather than approving this proposal I would recommend more use of
>> property tags. The existing street_vendor=yes tag is probably best, but
>> building=no is also common (10k uses) and makes it clear that a feature is
>> not a building.
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/building=no
>>
>> - Joseph Eisenberg
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 9:31 PM map...@t-online.de 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I propose to deprecate street_vendor=* and to tag mappable street
>>> vendors with amenity=street_vendor + vending=* + opening_hours=* instead.
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_vendors
>>>
>>> Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Freetz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street vendors

[Volker Schmidt]

Just to make the list complete:
Around here (or at least in my city and nearby towns) we have regular open
air markets with assigned locations for specific stalls.
Do we already have a mapping approach to that type of stalls? (I couldn't
find one).
If we really don't have one already, it might be worth looking at how to
map stalls in general as I cudl see a lot of similarities.
I do part of my shopping in such markets, and I go to specific stalls for
specific goods.

Il giorno lun 7 nov 2022 alle ore 17:03 Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> I disagree with classing if all “street vendors” and one feature.
>
> This proposal seems to assume conditions in contemporary Europe, where
> shops are usually located in permanent buildings due to climate conditions.
>
> In many subtropical and tropical regions the air temperature is never
> cold, so a fully enclosed permanent building with walls and heating is not
> very necessary.
>
> In this case many “street vendors” will have a tent and some storage which
> stays at a certain place, but is closed up at night. In that regards it is
> similar to a shop which is closed up with a metal gate at night, making it
> poorly visible except during opening hours.
>
> But consider shop=kiosk - in North America these are often small stands on
> a sidewalk of pedestrian street or mall, with one person wgo sells
> newspapers, snacks etc to pedestrians, functioning quite like a common kind
> of street vendor, except that they are in a tiny shed. Is it really better
> to have a totally different way of tagging a similar business which instead
> uses a mobile push-cart or a tricycle instead?
>
> In Southeast Asia, many of the businesses that Westerners might call
> street vendors sell newly cooked food, thus they are more like
> amenity=fast_food - and often an enclosed eatery will have only the kitchen
> indoors, with customers eating outside under a canopy.
>
> Even here in Oregon, in the United States, we have small restaurants which
> are ambiguous under this proposal: they are “food carts” because they are
> small kitchens in trailers with wheels, which can be moved by attaching
> them to a truck. But usually they are semi-permanently installed on rented
> private land, with the landowner providing hook-ups for electricity and
> water, and usually covered seating with a canopy and picnic tables. So
> while they look similar to at more mobile “food truck” (which has its own
> engine and drivers seat, and thus can be moved every day) they are more
> permanent.
>
> Rather than approving this proposal I would recommend more use of property
> tags. The existing street_vendor=yes tag is probably best, but building=no
> is also common (10k uses) and makes it clear that a feature is not a
> building.
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/building=no
>
> - Joseph Eisenberg
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 9:31 PM map...@t-online.de 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> I propose to deprecate street_vendor=* and to tag mappable street
>> vendors with amenity=street_vendor + vending=* + opening_hours=* instead.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_vendors
>>
>> Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>>
>> Freetz
>>
>>
>>
>> 
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street vendors

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I disagree with classing if all “street vendors” and one feature.

This proposal seems to assume conditions in contemporary Europe, where
shops are usually located in permanent buildings due to climate conditions.

In many subtropical and tropical regions the air temperature is never cold,
so a fully enclosed permanent building with walls and heating is not very
necessary.

In this case many “street vendors” will have a tent and some storage which
stays at a certain place, but is closed up at night. In that regards it is
similar to a shop which is closed up with a metal gate at night, making it
poorly visible except during opening hours.

But consider shop=kiosk - in North America these are often small stands on
a sidewalk of pedestrian street or mall, with one person wgo sells
newspapers, snacks etc to pedestrians, functioning quite like a common kind
of street vendor, except that they are in a tiny shed. Is it really better
to have a totally different way of tagging a similar business which instead
uses a mobile push-cart or a tricycle instead?

In Southeast Asia, many of the businesses that Westerners might call street
vendors sell newly cooked food, thus they are more like amenity=fast_food -
and often an enclosed eatery will have only the kitchen indoors, with
customers eating outside under a canopy.

Even here in Oregon, in the United States, we have small restaurants which
are ambiguous under this proposal: they are “food carts” because they are
small kitchens in trailers with wheels, which can be moved by attaching
them to a truck. But usually they are semi-permanently installed on rented
private land, with the landowner providing hook-ups for electricity and
water, and usually covered seating with a canopy and picnic tables. So
while they look similar to at more mobile “food truck” (which has its own
engine and drivers seat, and thus can be moved every day) they are more
permanent.

Rather than approving this proposal I would recommend more use of property
tags. The existing street_vendor=yes tag is probably best, but building=no
is also common (10k uses) and makes it clear that a feature is not a
building.
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/building=no

- Joseph Eisenberg



On Sun, Nov 6, 2022 at 9:31 PM map...@t-online.de 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I propose to deprecate street_vendor=* and to tag mappable street vendors
> with amenity=street_vendor + vending=* + opening_hours=* instead.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_vendors
>
> Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Freetz
>
>
>
> 
> ___
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> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street vendors

[Marc_marc]

Le 07.11.22 à 11:24, Illia Marchenko a écrit :

(ii) made values of vending=* similar to values if the shop=*.


a vending machine may sell parking_tickets -> vending=parking_tickets
shop=parking_tickets seem very strange.



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street vendors

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

if street_vendor / vending would mirror shop values rather
than trying to duplicate shop categorisation, just with different values
then it would be much less problematic.

(I still would have major problems with it but it would get better)

Nov 7, 2022, 11:24 by illiamarchenk...@gmail.com:

> As alternative, I would suggest use either
> (i) street_vendor=* with values similar to values of the shop=*, for example 
> amenity=street_vendor & street_vendor=snack; or
> (ii) made values of vending=* similar to values if the shop=*.  
>
> пн, 7 нояб. 2022 г., 13:01 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <> 
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> >:
>
>> My main problem is that this proposals wants to create vending=* equivalent
>> for every single shop value, with values that are in general different.
>>
>> That alone seems to be not worth all benefits that this proposal can bring.
>>
>> Nov 7, 2022, 06:28 by >> map...@t-online.de>> :
>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>> I >>> propose to deprecate street_vendor=* and to tag mappable street 
>>> vendors with amenity=street_vendor + vending=* + opening_hours=* instead.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_vendors
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>> Freetz
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street vendors

[Illia Marchenko]

As alternative, I would suggest use either
(i) street_vendor=* with values similar to values of the shop=*, for
example amenity=street_vendor & street_vendor=snack; or
(ii) made values of vending=* similar to values if the shop=*.

пн, 7 нояб. 2022 г., 13:01 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org>:

> My main problem is that this proposals wants to create vending=* equivalent
> for every single shop value, with values that are in general different.
>
> That alone seems to be not worth all benefits that this proposal can bring.
>
> Nov 7, 2022, 06:28 by map...@t-online.de:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I propose to deprecate street_vendor=* and to tag mappable street vendors
> with amenity=street_vendor + vending=* + opening_hours=* instead.
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_vendors
>
>
> Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Freetz
>
>
>
>
> 
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street vendors

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

My main problem is that this proposals wants to create vending=* equivalent
for every single shop value, with values that are in general different.

That alone seems to be not worth all benefits that this proposal can bring.

Nov 7, 2022, 06:28 by map...@t-online.de:

>
> Hi all,
>
>
>  
>
>
> I > propose to deprecate street_vendor=* and to tag mappable street vendors 
> with amenity=street_vendor + vending=* + opening_hours=* instead.
>
>
>
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_vendors
>
>
>
>
>
> Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.
>
>
>  
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>  
>
>
> Freetz
>
>
>  
>
>
>
>
> 
>

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Street vendors

[map...@t-online.de]

Hi all,
 
I propose to deprecate street_vendor=* and to tag mappable street vendors 
with amenity=street_vendor + vending=* + opening_hours=* instead.


Please discuss this proposal on its Wiki Talk page.
 
Cheers,
 
Freetz
 
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