Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-04-05 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
Are there any more comments about the proposal for amenity=motorcycle_taxi?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_taxi

As expected, there were a few critical remarks about the use of
"amenity=" - however, this is the key used for "amenity=taxi", a
motorcar taxi cab stand, so it makes sense to use the same key for
ojek and boda-boda ("motorcycle taxi") stands.

There was also a suggestion to use amenity=taxi + motorcycle=yes or
some other similar tag. However, the proposal page explains why this
is not a good idea:

"Why not use amenity=taxi?"

While some have proposed using amenity=taxi plus the additional tags
motorcar=no + motorcycle=yes for motorcycle taxi stands, this has
several disadvanages:

* implies that a taxicab and a hired motorcyle "ojek" are the same feature.

* requires using 3 tags instead of one.

* If only amenity=taxi is tagged, it would now become ambiguous: is
this actually a taxicab stand, or might it be a motorcycle taxi stand
which is missing a tag?

* Confusing for travelers who generally expect a "taxicab" to be
4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying at least 4 passengers and their
luggage. This is quite different than a motorcycle which can only
carry one passenger with a small amount of baggage.

* Motorcyles have different abilities: In contrast to a family or
group which needs a 4 to 6 seat taxicab, single travelers may strongly
prefer to hire motorcycles when available, due to their lower cost and
ability to fit through smaller spaces in congested cities and rural
areas with narrow roads and paths. Motorcar taxicabs with 4 wheels in
2 tracks cannot access highway=path features and narrow roads, but
motorcycles may be permitted and feasible due to their narrow width
and single track.

* Many database users currently interpret amenity=taxi as a motorcar
taxicab via use of a standard "taxi" icon such as
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Taxi_Icon.png - this would be
broken by such a change.

So a different tag is proposed to avoid confusion and more precisely
tag these features. The value "motorcycle_taxi" is not a very common
term in British (or American) English, but that's because these
features are not found in Europe or North America.

I would like to bring this to a vote soon.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On 2/20/20, Joseph Eisenberg  wrote:
> I would like to formally request comments on the proposal for
> amenity=motorcycle_taxi:
>
> "A place where motorcycle taxis wait for passengers"
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_taxi
>
> In many countries, motorcycles for hire are much more common than
> automobile taxis.
>
> In these places, motorcycle drivers wait at stands, often with a small
> shelter, and they can be hired to take one or more passengers to
> various destinations. A fare is paid for a one-way trip. The passenger
> usually rides behind the driver. In some countries two or even three
> passengers can be carried on one motorcycle "taxi".
>
> Motorcycle taxis are also known as "motos" or "bike taxi", or by other
> local names, such as "ojek" here in Indonesia and in Singapore,
> "boda-boda" in Uganda, and "okada" in Nigeria.
>
> While some have proposed using amenity=taxi plus additional tags for
> motorcycle taxi stands, this is quite confusing for travelers who
> generally expect a "taxi" to be 4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying
> 4 people and luggage. So a different tag is proposed to avoid
> confusion and more precisely tag these features.
>
> - Joseph Eisenberg
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-21 Thread Florimond Berthoux
My point is : don't merge features in the same tag !
That makes thing more difficult to tag and more difficult to consume.
Indonesia is big but world is bigger, and I'm pretty sure we can find
examples where different kind of vehicles shares the same taxi spot.

(You can use any british word for that taxi spot tag I don't mind).


Le ven. 21 févr. 2020 à 08:32, Joseph Eisenberg 
a écrit :

> >  In Paris there are parking shared between bicycle and motorcycle, and
> parking shared between bicycle and dock less vehicles (scooters).
>
> Unlike parking spaces, a motorcycle taxi stand is never shared between
> motorcycles and cabs or tricycles here in Indonesia, since each type
> of vehicle has different characteristics: speed, capacity, distance
> that can be traveled. The markets and the prices are different.
>
> Often a market or train station will have 3 stands for 3 types of
> hired vehicles (motorcycles, taxicabs, and pedicabs/tricycles), with
> each at a separate corner, or on different sides of the street.
>
> > amenity=taxi
> > taxi:motorcycle=yes
> > taxi:car=yes
> > taxi:tricycle=yes
>
> This is discussed in the proposal page:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_taxi#Why_not_use_amenity.3Dtaxi.3F
>
> While some have proposed using {{tag|amenity|taxi}} plus the
> additional tags {{tag|motorcar|no}} + {{tag|motorcycle|yes}} for
> motorcycle taxi stands, this has several disadvanages:
> 1) It would imply that a taxicab and a hired motorcyle "ojek" are the
> same feature.
> 2) it requires using 3 tags instead of one.
> 3) If only amenity=taxi is tagged, it would now become ambiguous: is
> this actually a taxicab stand, or might it be a motorcycle stand which
> is missing a tag?
> 4) It will confusing for travelers who generally expect a "taxicab" to
> be 4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying at least 4 passengers and
> their luggage. This is quite different than a motorcycle which can
> only carry one passenger with a small amount of baggage.
> 5) Many database users currently interpret {{tag|amenity|taxi}} as a
> motorcar taxicab via use of a standard "taxi" icon such as
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Taxi_Icon.png - this would be
> broken by such a change.
> 6) Motorcyles have different abilities: In contrast to a family or
> group which needs a 4 to 6 seat taxicab, single travelers may strongly
> prefer to hire motorcycles when available, due to their lower cost and
> ability to fit through smaller spaces in congested cities and rural
> areas with narrow roads and paths. Motorcar taxicabs with 4 wheels in
> 2 tracks cannot access {{tag|highway|path}} features and narrow roads,
> but motorcycles may be permitted and feasible due to their narrow
> width and single track.
>
> So a different tag is proposed to avoid confusion and more precisely
> tag these features.
>
>
>
> On 2/21/20, Florimond Berthoux  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm always suspicious about tags with underscore in it, because they
> often
> > mix different features together.
> > My examples are parking, bicycle_parking, motorcycle_parking. In Paris
> > there are parking shared between bicycle and motorcycle, and parking
> shared
> > between bicycle and dock less vehicles (scooters).
> > Creating a new key for each combination would be awful.
> >
> > So I prefer to split the amenity "you can pay someone there to have a
> ride"
> > and what kind of vehicles you can find there.
> > That could looks like this:
> > amenity=taxi
> > taxi:motorcycle=yes
> > taxi:car=yes
> > taxi:tricycle=yes
> > ...
> >
> > (or other more British words ;)
> >
> >
> > Le jeu. 20 févr. 2020 à 08:50, Joseph Eisenberg
> > 
> > a écrit :
> >
> >> I would like to formally request comments on the proposal for
> >> amenity=motorcycle_taxi:
> >>
> >> "A place where motorcycle taxis wait for passengers"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_taxi
> >>
> >> In many countries, motorcycles for hire are much more common than
> >> automobile taxis.
> >>
> >> In these places, motorcycle drivers wait at stands, often with a small
> >> shelter, and they can be hired to take one or more passengers to
> >> various destinations. A fare is paid for a one-way trip. The passenger
> >> usually rides behind the driver. In some countries two or even three
> >> passengers can be carried on one motorcycle "taxi".
> >>
> >> Motorcycle taxis are also known as "motos" or "bike taxi", or by other
> >> local names, such as "ojek" here in Indonesia and in Singapore,
> >> "boda-boda" in Uganda, and "okada" in Nigeria.
> >>
> >> While some have proposed using amenity=taxi plus additional tags for
> >> motorcycle taxi stands, this is quite confusing for travelers who
> >> generally expect a "taxi" to be 4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying
> >> 4 people and luggage. So a different tag is proposed to avoid
> >> confusion and more precisely tag these features.
> >>
> >> - Joseph Eisenberg
> 

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-21 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
On 2/21/20, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
>  in the Philippines, tricycles/pedicabs are never used for long-distance 
> travel
> and are usually used for the "last-mile" travel typically to get to a
> particular house from a main highway (or to get from the house to the
> highway). These tricycles/pedicabs usually have "service areas" (often a
> gated subdivision, or a village, or a close cluster of hamlets) and they
> only provide transportation within that area and cannot bring you anywhere
> unlike regular taxis.

Ojek (motorcycle taxis) in Indonesia are mostly used for the last
kilometer trips from major highways into neighborhoods, as you
mention, especially in towns and cities where there are minibuses
along major roads. But you may hire them to take you across town, if
you can afford paying a few dollars more than the bus fare and are in
a hurry. (Hopefully it won't rain).

In remote areas, where there are no public buses, it is possible to
hire an ojek for a 10 or 20 kilometer ride up to a village. Sometimes
the road is more of a path, only passable by 2-wheeled vehicles, so a
taxicab would not be possible.

- Joseph Eisenberg

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
>  In Paris there are parking shared between bicycle and motorcycle, and 
> parking shared between bicycle and dock less vehicles (scooters).

Unlike parking spaces, a motorcycle taxi stand is never shared between
motorcycles and cabs or tricycles here in Indonesia, since each type
of vehicle has different characteristics: speed, capacity, distance
that can be traveled. The markets and the prices are different.

Often a market or train station will have 3 stands for 3 types of
hired vehicles (motorcycles, taxicabs, and pedicabs/tricycles), with
each at a separate corner, or on different sides of the street.

> amenity=taxi
> taxi:motorcycle=yes
> taxi:car=yes
> taxi:tricycle=yes

This is discussed in the proposal page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_taxi#Why_not_use_amenity.3Dtaxi.3F

While some have proposed using {{tag|amenity|taxi}} plus the
additional tags {{tag|motorcar|no}} + {{tag|motorcycle|yes}} for
motorcycle taxi stands, this has several disadvanages:
1) It would imply that a taxicab and a hired motorcyle "ojek" are the
same feature.
2) it requires using 3 tags instead of one.
3) If only amenity=taxi is tagged, it would now become ambiguous: is
this actually a taxicab stand, or might it be a motorcycle stand which
is missing a tag?
4) It will confusing for travelers who generally expect a "taxicab" to
be 4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying at least 4 passengers and
their luggage. This is quite different than a motorcycle which can
only carry one passenger with a small amount of baggage.
5) Many database users currently interpret {{tag|amenity|taxi}} as a
motorcar taxicab via use of a standard "taxi" icon such as
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Taxi_Icon.png - this would be
broken by such a change.
6) Motorcyles have different abilities: In contrast to a family or
group which needs a 4 to 6 seat taxicab, single travelers may strongly
prefer to hire motorcycles when available, due to their lower cost and
ability to fit through smaller spaces in congested cities and rural
areas with narrow roads and paths. Motorcar taxicabs with 4 wheels in
2 tracks cannot access {{tag|highway|path}} features and narrow roads,
but motorcycles may be permitted and feasible due to their narrow
width and single track.

So a different tag is proposed to avoid confusion and more precisely
tag these features.



On 2/21/20, Florimond Berthoux  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm always suspicious about tags with underscore in it, because they often
> mix different features together.
> My examples are parking, bicycle_parking, motorcycle_parking. In Paris
> there are parking shared between bicycle and motorcycle, and parking shared
> between bicycle and dock less vehicles (scooters).
> Creating a new key for each combination would be awful.
>
> So I prefer to split the amenity "you can pay someone there to have a ride"
> and what kind of vehicles you can find there.
> That could looks like this:
> amenity=taxi
> taxi:motorcycle=yes
> taxi:car=yes
> taxi:tricycle=yes
> ...
>
> (or other more British words ;)
>
>
> Le jeu. 20 févr. 2020 à 08:50, Joseph Eisenberg
> 
> a écrit :
>
>> I would like to formally request comments on the proposal for
>> amenity=motorcycle_taxi:
>>
>> "A place where motorcycle taxis wait for passengers"
>>
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_taxi
>>
>> In many countries, motorcycles for hire are much more common than
>> automobile taxis.
>>
>> In these places, motorcycle drivers wait at stands, often with a small
>> shelter, and they can be hired to take one or more passengers to
>> various destinations. A fare is paid for a one-way trip. The passenger
>> usually rides behind the driver. In some countries two or even three
>> passengers can be carried on one motorcycle "taxi".
>>
>> Motorcycle taxis are also known as "motos" or "bike taxi", or by other
>> local names, such as "ojek" here in Indonesia and in Singapore,
>> "boda-boda" in Uganda, and "okada" in Nigeria.
>>
>> While some have proposed using amenity=taxi plus additional tags for
>> motorcycle taxi stands, this is quite confusing for travelers who
>> generally expect a "taxi" to be 4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying
>> 4 people and luggage. So a different tag is proposed to avoid
>> confusion and more precisely tag these features.
>>
>> - Joseph Eisenberg
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
>
> --
> Florimond Berthoux
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Florimond Berthoux
Hi,

I'm always suspicious about tags with underscore in it, because they often
mix different features together.
My examples are parking, bicycle_parking, motorcycle_parking. In Paris
there are parking shared between bicycle and motorcycle, and parking shared
between bicycle and dock less vehicles (scooters).
Creating a new key for each combination would be awful.

So I prefer to split the amenity "you can pay someone there to have a ride"
and what kind of vehicles you can find there.
That could looks like this:
amenity=taxi
taxi:motorcycle=yes
taxi:car=yes
taxi:tricycle=yes
...

(or other more British words ;)


Le jeu. 20 févr. 2020 à 08:50, Joseph Eisenberg 
a écrit :

> I would like to formally request comments on the proposal for
> amenity=motorcycle_taxi:
>
> "A place where motorcycle taxis wait for passengers"
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_taxi
>
> In many countries, motorcycles for hire are much more common than
> automobile taxis.
>
> In these places, motorcycle drivers wait at stands, often with a small
> shelter, and they can be hired to take one or more passengers to
> various destinations. A fare is paid for a one-way trip. The passenger
> usually rides behind the driver. In some countries two or even three
> passengers can be carried on one motorcycle "taxi".
>
> Motorcycle taxis are also known as "motos" or "bike taxi", or by other
> local names, such as "ojek" here in Indonesia and in Singapore,
> "boda-boda" in Uganda, and "okada" in Nigeria.
>
> While some have proposed using amenity=taxi plus additional tags for
> motorcycle taxi stands, this is quite confusing for travelers who
> generally expect a "taxi" to be 4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying
> 4 people and luggage. So a different tag is proposed to avoid
> confusion and more precisely tag these features.
>
> - Joseph Eisenberg
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


-- 
Florimond Berthoux
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar
On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 9:13 PM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> Oh, here in Indonesia you can find motorcycle taxis (ojek) everywhere,
> including in all the towns where bicycle rickshaws / pedicabs operate.
>
> For example, all of the markets in my town have a pangkalan ojek
> (motorcycle taxi stand) and a separate pangkalan becak (pedicab
> stand), usually near the main entrance.
>
> I prefer the pedicabs when I have luggage, since there is a nice wide
> bench which can carry more cargo than can fit on a motorcycle, and
> they are quiet and slower. But the motorcycles are faster, so if you
> are in a hurry or have a long trip, they are the better choice.
>

Hmmm. It seems that your ojeks are a different sort of public
transportation to our tricycles/pedicabs in the Philippines. If I
understand your description correctly, ojeks seem to be like regular
4-wheeled taxis in many respects except for the use of motorcycles, but in
the Philippines, tricycles/pedicabs are never used for long-distance travel
and are usually used for the "last-mile" travel typically to get to a
particular house from a main highway (or to get from the house to the
highway). These tricycles/pedicabs usually have "service areas" (often a
gated subdivision, or a village, or a close cluster of hamlets) and they
only provide transportation within that area and cannot bring you anywhere
unlike regular taxis.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Jarek Piórkowski
On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 at 02:49, Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:
>
> I would like to formally request comments on the proposal for
> amenity=motorcycle_taxi:
>
> "A place where motorcycle taxis wait for passengers"
> ...
> While some have proposed using amenity=taxi plus additional tags for
> motorcycle taxi stands, this is quite confusing for travelers who
> generally expect a "taxi" to be 4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying
> 4 people and luggage. So a different tag is proposed to avoid
> confusion and more precisely tag these features.

We could credit travellers with some knowledge of local norms, and use
secondary tags to clarify when necessary.

As a Canadian, a restaurant will always give free tap water if I am a
dining there. When I travel in Europe, that's not necessarily the
case. Should I suggest a tag amenity=restaurant_with_paid_water?

Similarly I would not expect people to suggest a
highway=secondary_but_extremely_bicycle_unfriendly tag for when they
visit Canada and are used to western European norms of what
highway=secondary looks like. Some of the differences can be tagged
with secondary tags, like cycleway=no, maxspeed, width, lanes...

Ideas of what constitutes a bus station, a train halt, a doctor's
office, toilets, supermarkets, etc will similarly also differ
worldwide.

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
Oh, here in Indonesia you can find motorcycle taxis (ojek) everywhere,
including in all the towns where bicycle rickshaws / pedicabs operate.

For example, all of the markets in my town have a pangkalan ojek
(motorcycle taxi stand) and a separate pangkalan becak (pedicab
stand), usually near the main entrance.

I prefer the pedicabs when I have luggage, since there is a nice wide
bench which can carry more cargo than can fit on a motorcycle, and
they are quiet and slower. But the motorcycles are faster, so if you
are in a hurry or have a long trip, they are the better choice.

On 2/20/20, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 8:28 PM Martin Koppenhoefer, 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Am Do., 20. Feb. 2020 um 13:21 Uhr schrieb Eugene Alvin Villar <
>> sea...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> The only difference is one is human-powered while the other is
>>> engine-powered.
>>>
>>
>>
>> IMHO, if we distinguish automobile taxis from motorcycle taxis, we should
>> also distinguish both from human powered vehicles. They may all fulfill
>> similar necessities, but from this "only difference" there are following
>> many consequences (speed, noise, range, etc.) so it would definitely be
>> worth make a distinction.
>>
>
> Just to clarify, these public transport services are either exclusively
> using motorcycles or exclusively using bicycles in a particular locale. As
> a commuting passenger, you generally have no choice whether you want the
> bicycles instead of motorcycles or vice versa. So the difference (human vs.
> engine) is a pedantic difference instead of a practical difference. That
> said, it is perfectly fine to use different secondary tags or subtags to
> differentiate between the two, just not have different top-level tags.
>
>>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar
On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 8:32 PM Joseph Eisenberg, 
wrote:

> > I think using "motorcycle_taxi" as a tag value would be confusing.
>
> Unfortunately, the English language terminology for these things is
> not very established, since they are not used in Britain or North
> America (except for the tourist pedicabs as mentioned), which makes it
> harder to pick a good tag value which will work everywhere.
>
> Are you aware of any alternative phrase or word which would be clearer?
>

Well, in Philippine English (English is an official language in the
Philippines), the standard English term is "tricycle" as can be seen in
everyday usage and in laws that regulate these forms of public
transportation. Unfortunately, I know that "tricycle" is ambiguous if you
look at global English usage so I have no real good alternative.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar
On Thu, Feb 20, 2020, 8:28 PM Martin Koppenhoefer, 
wrote:

>
>
> Am Do., 20. Feb. 2020 um 13:21 Uhr schrieb Eugene Alvin Villar <
> sea...@gmail.com>:
>
>> The only difference is one is human-powered while the other is
>> engine-powered.
>>
>
>
> IMHO, if we distinguish automobile taxis from motorcycle taxis, we should
> also distinguish both from human powered vehicles. They may all fulfill
> similar necessities, but from this "only difference" there are following
> many consequences (speed, noise, range, etc.) so it would definitely be
> worth make a distinction.
>

Just to clarify, these public transport services are either exclusively
using motorcycles or exclusively using bicycles in a particular locale. As
a commuting passenger, you generally have no choice whether you want the
bicycles instead of motorcycles or vice versa. So the difference (human vs.
engine) is a pedantic difference instead of a practical difference. That
said, it is perfectly fine to use different secondary tags or subtags to
differentiate between the two, just not have different top-level tags.

>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
> they use (pedaled) bicycles instead. These are called pedicabs...

Yes, Indonesia has many of these too: we call them "becak," passengers
sit up front on a bench, unlike in India bicycle rickshaws.

There are even "bemo" which are motorized tricycles, where the bicycle
part (in the back) has been replaced with half a motorcycle, which I
suppose are more similar to your motorcycle+sidecar ride hailing
services.

My plan was to propose "amenity=pedicab" for locations where you can
hire a pedal-powered (or electric) tricycle "pedicabs" or "bicycle
rickshaws", but I have not gotten around to writing up that proposal
yet.

> I think using "motorcycle_taxi" as a tag value would be confusing.

Unfortunately, the English language terminology for these things is
not very established, since they are not used in Britain or North
America (except for the tourist pedicabs as mentioned), which makes it
harder to pick a good tag value which will work everywhere.

Are you aware of any alternative phrase or word which would be clearer?

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 2/20/20, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
> As a person from the Philippines who uses these "motorcycle taxis" (we call
> them tricycles here and they are basically motorcycles with an attached
> sidecar for passengers), I am in favor of having a new top-level tag for
> these "taxi" stations. The reason why we used "taxi" here is that this was
> the closest comparable equivalent tag for such public transport amenities.
>
> However, I would prefer a value that is something else than
> "motorcycle_taxi" and that is because in some other areas, instead of
> motorcycles, they use (pedaled) bicycles instead. These are called pedicabs
> (but in other parts of the country, tricycles may be called pedicabs as
> well) and are effectively equivalent to the traditional motorcycle
> tricycles as a form of public transportation. The only difference is one is
> human-powered while the other is engine-powered.
>
> Furthermore, we actually have "real" motorcycle-based ride-hailing taxi
> services here (one such service is called Angkas: https://angkas.com/ ) and
> I think using "motorcycle_taxi" as a tag value would be confusing.
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 3:50 PM Joseph Eisenberg
> 
> wrote:
>
>> I would like to formally request comments on the proposal for
>> amenity=motorcycle_taxi:
>>
>> "A place where motorcycle taxis wait for passengers"
>>
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_taxi
>>
>> In many countries, motorcycles for hire are much more common than
>> automobile taxis.
>>
>> In these places, motorcycle drivers wait at stands, often with a small
>> shelter, and they can be hired to take one or more passengers to
>> various destinations. A fare is paid for a one-way trip. The passenger
>> usually rides behind the driver. In some countries two or even three
>> passengers can be carried on one motorcycle "taxi".
>>
>> Motorcycle taxis are also known as "motos" or "bike taxi", or by other
>> local names, such as "ojek" here in Indonesia and in Singapore,
>> "boda-boda" in Uganda, and "okada" in Nigeria.
>>
>> While some have proposed using amenity=taxi plus additional tags for
>> motorcycle taxi stands, this is quite confusing for travelers who
>> generally expect a "taxi" to be 4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying
>> 4 people and luggage. So a different tag is proposed to avoid
>> confusion and more precisely tag these features.
>>
>> - Joseph Eisenberg
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am Do., 20. Feb. 2020 um 13:21 Uhr schrieb Eugene Alvin Villar <
sea...@gmail.com>:

> The only difference is one is human-powered while the other is
> engine-powered.
>


IMHO, if we distinguish automobile taxis from motorcycle taxis, we should
also distinguish both from human powered vehicles. They may all fulfill
similar necessities, but from this "only difference" there are following
many consequences (speed, noise, range, etc.) so it would definitely be
worth make a distinction.

Cheers
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar
As a person from the Philippines who uses these "motorcycle taxis" (we call
them tricycles here and they are basically motorcycles with an attached
sidecar for passengers), I am in favor of having a new top-level tag for
these "taxi" stations. The reason why we used "taxi" here is that this was
the closest comparable equivalent tag for such public transport amenities.

However, I would prefer a value that is something else than
"motorcycle_taxi" and that is because in some other areas, instead of
motorcycles, they use (pedaled) bicycles instead. These are called pedicabs
(but in other parts of the country, tricycles may be called pedicabs as
well) and are effectively equivalent to the traditional motorcycle
tricycles as a form of public transportation. The only difference is one is
human-powered while the other is engine-powered.

Furthermore, we actually have "real" motorcycle-based ride-hailing taxi
services here (one such service is called Angkas: https://angkas.com/ ) and
I think using "motorcycle_taxi" as a tag value would be confusing.


On Thu, Feb 20, 2020 at 3:50 PM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> I would like to formally request comments on the proposal for
> amenity=motorcycle_taxi:
>
> "A place where motorcycle taxis wait for passengers"
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_taxi
>
> In many countries, motorcycles for hire are much more common than
> automobile taxis.
>
> In these places, motorcycle drivers wait at stands, often with a small
> shelter, and they can be hired to take one or more passengers to
> various destinations. A fare is paid for a one-way trip. The passenger
> usually rides behind the driver. In some countries two or even three
> passengers can be carried on one motorcycle "taxi".
>
> Motorcycle taxis are also known as "motos" or "bike taxi", or by other
> local names, such as "ojek" here in Indonesia and in Singapore,
> "boda-boda" in Uganda, and "okada" in Nigeria.
>
> While some have proposed using amenity=taxi plus additional tags for
> motorcycle taxi stands, this is quite confusing for travelers who
> generally expect a "taxi" to be 4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying
> 4 people and luggage. So a different tag is proposed to avoid
> confusion and more precisely tag these features.
>
> - Joseph Eisenberg
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
Not all of these actually are in real-world use.

The only 4 options in common use today are:

1) motorcar, 4 wheels, enclosed (amenity=taxi)
2) motorcycle, 2 wheels, open (amenity=motorcycle_taxi)
3) pedicabs / 3-wheel tricycles (amenity=pedicab?) - non-motorized
4) autorickshaws, 3 wheels, enclosed (could be amenity=taxi or perhaps
amenity=autorickshaw - but these are not common where I live, though I
know they are common in Thailand, India and some other countries).

There used to be human-pulled rickshaws, but these no longer exist.
They were take over by pedicabs / aka bicycle rickshaws, since those
are much more efficient.

I will consider proposing the other 2 tags later, but motorcyle taxis
are by far the most common. I would bet there are more "ojek" stands
in Indonesia than taxi stands in all of Europe.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 2/20/20, marc marc  wrote:
> Le 20.02.20 à 12:45, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
>> Can't we have an easy to use top-level feature tag, instead of having
>> to add 3 tags like amenity=taxi + motorcar=no + motorcycle=yes to
>> define one very common, unique feature?
>
> did we need to have a top-level feature for every "unique" combination
> of the same service ?
> if yes, we need a lot of them
> amenity=foot_taxi
> amenity=moto_taxi
> amenity=sidecar_taxi
> amenity=taxi_low_local_pollution
> amenity=taxi_powered_by_renewable_energy etc.
> but all of these are part of the same type of service,
> regardless of the number of wheels and the driving force.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am Do., 20. Feb. 2020 um 12:47 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>:

> This is a very common feature in Southeast Asia, Africa and parts of
> central and south America: there are hundreds of thousands of them.
>
> Can't we have an easy to use top-level feature tag, instead of having
> to add 3 tags like amenity=taxi + motorcar=no + motorcycle=yes to
> define one very common, unique feature?



It seems you are the only person discussing here who has actual on the
ground knowledge with this kind of service. They do not exist here (there
are horse drawn carriages here, but they are kind of a tourist attraction
and not considered taxis or generally, public transport, and while in
Berlin bicycle based rickshaws are not uncommon, they are also not seen as
public transport, nor as taxis (I guess), but rather as some kind of
tourist attraction more similar to the horse drawn carriages).

FWIW, if you believe they should get their own main tag, because tagging
them as (subtype of) taxis would be a misrepresentation and not lead to
useful user experience, I would be fine with a new main tag, provided there
is no significant opposition from other mappers who are familiar with them.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread marc marc
Le 20.02.20 à 12:45, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit :
> Can't we have an easy to use top-level feature tag, instead of having
> to add 3 tags like amenity=taxi + motorcar=no + motorcycle=yes to
> define one very common, unique feature?

did we need to have a top-level feature for every "unique" combination
of the same service ?
if yes, we need a lot of them
amenity=foot_taxi
amenity=moto_taxi
amenity=sidecar_taxi
amenity=taxi_low_local_pollution
amenity=taxi_powered_by_renewable_energy etc.
but all of these are part of the same type of service,
regardless of the number of wheels and the driving force.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
> use amenity=taxi with motorcycle=yes, motorcar=no for motorbike based taxi 
> stands.

That combination has only been used 145 times, in spite of being
including in the Phillipines tagging guidelines and previously on
Tag:amenity=taxi: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/QTu

There are more places with name="Pangkalan Ojek" + name="Motorcycle
Taxi" + name="Boda-Boda*" and similar improper uses of the name tag to
describe an Ojek/Boda-Boda/Motorcycle Taxi stand.

This is a very common feature in Southeast Asia, Africa and parts of
central and south America: there are hundreds of thousands of them.

Can't we have an easy to use top-level feature tag, instead of having
to add 3 tags like amenity=taxi + motorcar=no + motorcycle=yes to
define one very common, unique feature?

- Joseph

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
This new tag is meant for motorcycles (2 wheeled vehicles), not
3-wheel tuk-tuks and similar vehicles, which are enclosed and provide
a separate seating are for passengers. They are more similar to
4-wheel motorcar taxis than to motorcycles.

Yes, some places (like the Phillipines) have suggested using
amenity=taxi for motorcycles, 3-wheeled bicycles, 3-wheeled motor
vehicles etc, so that they will be rendered, but I believe this is
misusing the term "taxi", which is widely understood to refer to a
motorcar taxi in most countries and languages.

That would be similar to using highway=bus_stop for taxis by arguing
that they are both publically available forms of passenger
transportation, even though a bus runs on a fixed schedule and route
and carries many different people, while a taxi is hired privately and
goes directly to your destination.

- Joseph Eisenberg



On 2/20/20, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> Am Do., 20. Feb. 2020 um 10:23 Uhr schrieb Volker Schmidt
> >:
>
>> Do we have any idea how many amenity=taxi already in OSM are in fact
>> toctocs or similar?
>> I suspect that this number is huge, and introducing a new tag for them
>> will only create confusion, as we have no way of migrating the toktoks
>> tagged as taxies to the new key.
>>
>
>
> until someone decided to discourage it, the wiki stated to use amenity=taxi
> with motorcycle=yes, motorcar=no for motorbike based taxi stands.
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am Do., 20. Feb. 2020 um 10:23 Uhr schrieb Volker Schmidt :

> Do we have any idea how many amenity=taxi already in OSM are in fact
> toctocs or similar?
> I suspect that this number is huge, and introducing a new tag for them
> will only create confusion, as we have no way of migrating the toktoks
> tagged as taxies to the new key.
>


until someone decided to discourage it, the wiki stated to use amenity=taxi
with motorcycle=yes, motorcar=no for motorbike based taxi stands.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Volker Schmidt
Do we have any idea how many amenity=taxi already in OSM are in fact
toctocs or similar?
I suspect that this number is huge, and introducing a new tag for them will
only create confusion, as we have no way of migrating the toktoks tagged as
taxies to the new key.

Volker


On Thu, 20 Feb 2020 at 08:50, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> I would like to formally request comments on the proposal for
> amenity=motorcycle_taxi:
>
> "A place where motorcycle taxis wait for passengers"
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-20 Thread Daniel Koć
W dniu 20.02.2020 o 08:48, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
> I would like to formally request comments on the proposal for
> amenity=motorcycle_taxi:
>
> "A place where motorcycle taxis wait for passengers"
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_taxi


I propose to use more precise key "public_transport" for this kind of
objects.


-- 
"Rzeczy się psują – zęby, spłuczki, kompy, związki, pralki" [Bisz]


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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

2020-02-19 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
I would like to formally request comments on the proposal for
amenity=motorcycle_taxi:

"A place where motorcycle taxis wait for passengers"

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_taxi

In many countries, motorcycles for hire are much more common than
automobile taxis.

In these places, motorcycle drivers wait at stands, often with a small
shelter, and they can be hired to take one or more passengers to
various destinations. A fare is paid for a one-way trip. The passenger
usually rides behind the driver. In some countries two or even three
passengers can be carried on one motorcycle "taxi".

Motorcycle taxis are also known as "motos" or "bike taxi", or by other
local names, such as "ojek" here in Indonesia and in Singapore,
"boda-boda" in Uganda, and "okada" in Nigeria.

While some have proposed using amenity=taxi plus additional tags for
motorcycle taxi stands, this is quite confusing for travelers who
generally expect a "taxi" to be 4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying
4 people and luggage. So a different tag is proposed to avoid
confusion and more precisely tag these features.

- Joseph Eisenberg

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