Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
I have adapted the proposal to reflect the results of this discussion. Met vriendelijke groet/with kind regards, *Jan van Bekkum* www.DeEinderVoorbij.nl On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 1:53 AM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On Feb 24, 2015, at 2:26 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: a restaurant doesn't sell food as its main activity, it provides a service (cooking and table service, offering nice dishes and ambience, etc.). Martin - you always have a very keen eye for exactly the right word usage. You are right. it sells *cooked* food to consume, so it sells meals - dishes. and in the price of the food is an implicit agreement that you are allowed to be on the premises to consume it, for the most part. I rarely go to a restaurant for admiring it’s atmosphere - if it din’t sell meals, I wouldn’t be there. A butcher or a market’s primary purpose sells raw ingredients - “food” - in order to make meals. But that is still a shop that sells meals. but the change of this word has no bearing on the argument I laid out. The toilets, the parking, smoking area, the benches, the baby changing station - maybe even the “bar” in the restaurant are amenities of the the restaurant - rather than looking at the restaurant as an amenity of the neighborhood. Amenities are part of a location - and the location is a shop. OSM seems to have shifted it’s tagging focus from city level to street and now to building level, as more and more data types are discussed. look at the tags discussed here - water taps being the most contentious for the past month or so - it is mapping these small “location” amenities. the tagging structure should reflect that change of focus - and classifying some shops as shops and some as amenities is quite confusing and goes against the more narrow focus. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
Am 01.03.2015 um 16:46 schrieb Jan van Bekkum: I have adapted the proposal to reflect the results of this discussion. As long as there is not category for service-businesses I would use amenity=vehicle_storage as this is no shop but a service and shop=storage sounds like a super category for shop=bags;suite-case;cartoon-box. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
2015-02-22 0:27 GMT+01:00 John Willis jo...@mac.com: Personally, it is confusing as all hell that some businesses that offer services for money are amenities and some are shops. I know the implication of shop is for sales of goods, but a restaurant sells food, and it is an amenity. A bench is also an amenity. a restaurant doesn't sell food as its main activity, it provides a service (cooking and table service, offering nice dishes and ambience, etc.). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
On 24/02/2015 4:26 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2015-02-22 0:27 GMT+01:00 John Willis jo...@mac.com mailto:jo...@mac.com: Personally, it is confusing as all hell that some businesses that offer services for money are amenities and some are shops. I know the implication of shop is for sales of goods, but a restaurant sells food, and it is an amenity. A bench is also an amenity. a restaurant doesn't sell food as its main activity, it provides a service (cooking and table service, offering nice dishes and ambience, etc.). Using that thinking a butcher does not 'sell food'; it provides a service of cutting up meat into nice cuts and proportions, packing them and presenting them in a nice ambience. A restaurant does sell food ... not always cooked. A restaurant without food will not have any customers, a restaurant with great food will have customers. It may use ambience and good service to help sell the food but the main thing you buy is food .. hopefully great food. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
You never can do it fully correct: - The breakfast restaurant in a two-star hotel just for residents is an amenity - A restaurant in a five-star hotel has to be present to qualify the for five stars, just like a gym, so it is an amenity, although you have to pay separately for the service - Gyms and restaurants are also standalone businesses, in that case shop would be more logical - What about the five-star hotel also serving non-residents? In the case of vehicle parking it is a standalone business and not something you expect to be part of a larger business, so shop is most appropriate On Sun Feb 22 2015 at 12:27:19 PM Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: shop=storage to me means a shop that sells bags, boxes .. stuff to store things in ... not the space to store stuff in. so shop=vehicle_storage would be better if it is to be shop=. http://www.garagen-klaus.de/files/garagegreif1_2.jpg __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
shop=storage to me means a shop that sells bags, boxes .. stuff to store things in ... not the space to store stuff in. so shop=vehicle_storage would be better if it is to be shop=. http://www.garagen-klaus.de/files/garagegreif1_2.jpg __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
On Feb 22, 2015, at 8:47 PM, Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com wrote: You never can do it fully correct: The breakfast restaurant in a two-star hotel just for residents is an amenity A restaurant in a five-star hotel has to be present to qualify the for five stars, just like a gym, so it is an amenity, although you have to pay separately for the service Gyms and restaurants are also standalone businesses, in that case shop would be more logical What about the five-star hotel also serving non-residents? This is a good case question - but the overwhelming majority of restaurants in the world - probably 99.9 percent of restaurants are shops - not some amenity for a hotel - so it feels really weird having it in the amenity space. I think the hotel restaurant is the exception that proves the rule: All true restaurants accept money for food, so they are all shops - they just have access restrictions. if it is a place you sit down and they give you food in exchange for money, it is a restaurant. The amenity for the hotel is room service. If it is a room where you eat your lunch, it is a break room. I don’t think it matters if it is part of the hotel or not, as long as it is named and it is accessible to the public or customers. the operator is the hotel, but the sign on the street level says “restaurant and people would tag a point in that section of the hotel building area to indicate the presence of a restaurant. if the restaurant at the 2 star is named, and there is a sign out front, then it is a shop. if it is a breakfast nook next to the front desk with a box of corn flakes and a danish, it might be something else. (Amenity=meal_corner?) Maybe there should be a “hospitality=*” top level key so we could set some basic amenities of the hotel or same that way - and leave restaurants to actual shops who offer food for money - even if it is private (an army base with a mcdonlads, a private dining club, a guests only restaurant in a hotel, etc). hospitality:breakfast=7:00 to 9:00 (whatever the access restriction theme is) — for the “breakfast service” which is a Danish in a bag and a cup of orange juice hospitality:gym=yes hospitality:pool=indoor because it it is impossible to map out most tall tower hotels, and covering amenity points all over a hotel outline is not really useful, and listing more than one amenity on a hotel object (which are usually just points, like a gym and a restaurant) is impossible because it is all in the amenity space! the gym is an amenity and a shop - just like the storage we are discussing. I think it is bad to have all gyms in amenity, but we should still me able to be able to classify it as an amenity for point tagging in larger facilities (where it truly is an amenity of a facility) If there is some modifier to put on a business to say “this is a business built around the amenity=*”, that might work, but I’d prefer to have separate shop=* or business=* tag - as the weight room at a high school and a local gym are two very different things - one is a business you search for, and the other is an amenity of the much larger facility. maybe I’m misunderstanding something fundamental about tagging, or the way access works, or the way the data is parsed - but not being able to tag “shop foo” a “shop” while being able to tag “shop bar” a “shop” is really counterintuitive - how many people keep tagging in OSM once they make an account? This is part of the reason that is so low. so, so many businesses are basic shops selling things or services to people - probably less than 5% run into these issues - the world is full of well defined shop, weather in a mall, on a street, or even on the side of the road a s a vegetable stand. most of them are straightforward about directly offering services for money. Javbw In the case of vehicle parking it is a standalone business and not something you expect to be part of a larger business, so shop is most appropriate On Sun Feb 22 2015 at 12:27:19 PM Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de mailto:andi...@t-online.de wrote: shop=storage to me means a shop that sells bags, boxes .. stuff to store things in ... not the space to store stuff in. so shop=vehicle_storage would be better if it is to be shop=. http://www.garagen-klaus.de/files/garagegreif1_2.jpg http://www.garagen-klaus.de/files/garagegreif1_2.jpg __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 http://openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
Me too. restaurant, fast_food, pub, restaurant, ice_cream, beer garden, cafe and bar for example should be shop= not amenity .. for my thinking. +1 shop=storage to me means a shop that sells bags, boxes .. stuff to store things in ... not the space to store stuff in. In America, they're are box shops - usually they offer mailing boxes - and then there is some kind of organization store - like the chain like the container store which sells boxes, bags, plastic containers and other items for organizing your house, along with kitchen and travel organization things (including certain suitcases, but the focus is that is in the suitcase) so shop=vehicle_storage would be better if it is to be shop=. Sounds fine to me^^ --- Though amenities don't have to be free e.g. bbq .. some are free, some have a fee. Fee or free - it is an amenity of the facility - a vending machine, a gym, a ice machine, a picnic area - all may have fees or access restrictions - but they are amenities of the location. So many of the amenity tags are written as if they are an amenity of the town - and maybe when OSM started, that was the case (I wasn't around), but it certainly seems to me that now we are mapping amenities of a location/facility/complex scale - not on a town/city/ neighborhood scale. Landuse encompasses the location; Buildings amenity areas map out the major buildings and features inside a landuse; Amenity tags point out different 1x1m sized amenities inside the buildings and areas, such a drinking fountains, benches, etc. One can dream ! ^_^ Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
Storage and long term parking are subtly different - and LTP is definitely a part of parking. AFAIK, long term storage has the assumption that a: you are a traveller in some respect, and the amenity is usually near transportation facilities B: you will come back sometime, once possibly unspecified, C And then You will leave, and the use of the facility is over. So LTP is for temporary storage of a vehicle, when you leave the contract is up, and it returns home with you. Storage is the opposite - the item's home is the storage company/lot. It lives there. You remove it temporarily for usage and then it returns back home to the storage yard. Leaving the storage yard is not the end of the storage contract - there is the assumption that the item will return, and until there is a change, the item will perpetually live there. Javbw On Feb 22, 2015, at 4:51 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com wrote: Please have a look at this feature proposal. One question I have is, would this be more for something like this storage lot I can't figure out how to map, or the long term parking lot I use when I have the unfortunate need to fly, or both? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
So how does one differentiate between a common use lot that is private And a *shop* that offers that? Isn't there some need for the shop=* in some regard. Javbw On Feb 22, 2015, at 3:30 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: If the use of the vehicle storage is limited to certain people, such as residents of a particular neighborhood, use access tags as well. It then becomes the responsibility of the renderer to check these tags. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. On February 20, 2015 4:34:16 PM John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Feb 20, 2015, at 9:47 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-02-20 13:42 GMT+01:00 Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com: So it would become: shop=vehicle_storage covered=yes motorcar=yes caravan=yes I wouldn't use the shop key but something like amenity, and motorcar is a legal access restriction, so should be something different as well. From my earlier post : ~~~ Amenity=Vehicle_storage sounds great for when it is an amenity of a lager facility shop=vehicle_storage sounds great for a business that offers this service. If you are looking for Vehicle storage services, a bunch of arrows popping up on lots in planned communities and military bases that you can never use isn’t very useful. ~~~ You are right about the vehicle tag - what values do you suggest? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
Sent from my iPhone On Feb 22, 2015, at 3:30 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: If the use of the vehicle storage is limited to certain people, such as residents of a particular neighborhood, use access tags as well. It then becomes the responsibility of the renderer to check these tags. Personally, it is confusing as all hell that some businesses that offer services for money are amenities and some are shops. I know the implication of shop is for sales of goods, but a restaurant sells food, and it is an amenity. A bench is also an amenity. It is so baffling and counterintuitive to me. A shop sells things. A business does things. An amenity sits there, waiting for you to use it (like a bench), as an amenity *of the place* (a bench in front of the restaurant) - but the restaurant is an amenity too? But the bookstore isn't? It's shop=* ?? there is no business=* tag like shop=* And amenity is doing double duty. I wish that wasn't the case. If it is an amenity of a larger facility, amenity makes perfect sense - like the plain storage lot of a gated community - it is an amenity of the facility there is no business, no office, no transaction. If it is a shop for retail or business transactions, then it should be in the shop or a business keyspace. Since car repair is in the shop= key, I thought having the storage business located there - to tag the building that operates the lot and the larger landuse - would be appropriate for shop=* This is why I suggested two tags. Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
On 22/02/2015 10:27 AM, John Willis wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Feb 22, 2015, at 3:30 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com mailto:j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: If the use of the vehicle storage is limited to certain people, such as residents of a particular neighborhood, use access tags as well. It then becomes the responsibility of the renderer to check these tags. Personally, it is confusing as all hell that some businesses that offer services for money are amenities and some are shops. I know the implication of shop is for sales of goods, but a restaurant sells food, and it is an amenity. A bench is also an amenity. It is so baffling and counterintuitive to me. A shop sells things. A business does things. An amenity sits there, waiting for you to use it (like a bench), as an amenity *of the place* (a bench in front of the restaurant) - but the restaurant is an amenity too? But the bookstore isn't? It's shop=* ?? there is no business=* tag like shop=* And amenity is doing double duty. I wish that wasn't the case. Me too. restaurant, fast_food, pub, restaurant, ice_cream*, *beer garden, cafe and bar for example should be shop= not amenity .. for my thinking. shop=storage to me means a shop that sells bags, boxes .. stuff to store things in ... not the space to store stuff in. so shop=vehicle_storage would be better if it is to be shop=. --- Though amenities don't have to be free e.g. bbq .. some are free, some have a fee. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
If the use of the vehicle storage is limited to certain people, such as residents of a particular neighborhood, use access tags as well. It then becomes the responsibility of the renderer to check these tags. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. On February 20, 2015 4:34:16 PM John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Feb 20, 2015, at 9:47 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-02-20 13:42 GMT+01:00 Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com: So it would become: shop=vehicle_storage covered=yes motorcar=yes caravan=yes I wouldn't use the shop key but something like amenity, and motorcar is a legal access restriction, so should be something different as well. From my earlier post : ~~~ Amenity=Vehicle_storage sounds great for when it is an amenity of a lager facility shop=vehicle_storage sounds great for a business that offers this service. If you are looking for Vehicle storage services, a bunch of arrows popping up on lots in planned communities and military bases that you can never use isn’t very useful. ~~~ You are right about the vehicle tag - what values do you suggest? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
Sure, but we need to show that you can't store a boat in a car storage. On Sat Feb 21 2015 at 7:32:25 PM John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: If the use of the vehicle storage is limited to certain people, such as residents of a particular neighborhood, use access tags as well. It then becomes the responsibility of the renderer to check these tags. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. On February 20, 2015 4:34:16 PM John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Sent from my iPhone On Feb 20, 2015, at 9:47 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-02-20 13:42 GMT+01:00 Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com: So it would become: shop=vehicle_storage covered=yes motorcar=yes caravan=yes I wouldn't use the shop key but something like amenity, and motorcar is a legal access restriction, so should be something different as well. From my earlier post : ~~~ Amenity=Vehicle_storage sounds great for when it is an amenity of a lager facility shop=vehicle_storage sounds great for a business that offers this service. If you are looking for Vehicle storage services, a bunch of arrows popping up on lots in planned communities and military bases that you can never use isn’t very useful. ~~~ You are right about the vehicle tag - what values do you suggest? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 4:09 PM, Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com wrote: Please have a look at this feature proposal http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/parking%3Dcar_storage . One question I have is, would this be more for something like this storage lot I can't figure out how to map http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/301799, or the long term parking lot I use when I have the unfortunate need to fly http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/52870260, or both? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
On Feb 20, 2015, at 12:04 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 20/02/2015 1:22 PM, johnw wrote: I think he’s trying to say that “a storage amenity” is different from a parking amenity”, because it is not something you would seek out on the map when looking for parking (even long term airport parking, i think) - but rather something you’d seek out when looking for a storage facility for your vehicle, where the vehicle spends most of it’s life parked, instead of (illegally) in front of your house. But the proposal says it uses the same rendering as other amenity=parking ... Sorry, I was an idiot, I was reading the comments but neglected the actual proposal. You’re right. However, to me, this is a service that assists you with storage of what happens to be a vehicle (AKA a commercial service) so it either is a business or a retail establishment service - not a parking amenity - it has very different access expectations ( you can’t walk up to it, you can’t access it, you need to arrange ahead of time to access it if it is a business). A long term storage lot is parking for the storage business - which is totally covered by parking + private - but I thought he was trying to define the “Vehecle Storage business” - and I commented that it is also an amenity for certain facilities and complexes. The “service” of storing the Vehicle is a business beyond providing local parking - and like a car mechanic or a car wash, services *to the car for the owner* should be somehow reflected in a business sense - not through a variation of the parking lot itself. It’s hard to convey the difference between parking and storage, but it feels like that difference belongs outside the parking tag. amenity=vehicle_storage? That would be good for a private space provided in a larger facility to it’s patrons (like a Planned community)- That would mean it can’t be amenity=parking, right? How would you define it as a business? Most money for services” - like a hair dresser are under the shop=• tag, Even car repair - which is similarly a place you take your car and pay for a service performed to it (which can be labor-only), so I thought making a new value for shop=* would be a natural choice. In summary: Amenity=Vehicle_storage sounds great for when it is an amenity of a lager facility shop=vehicle_storage sounds great for a business that offers this service. If you are looking for Vehicle storage services, a bunch of arrows popping up on lots in planned communities and military bases that you can never use isn’t very useful. Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
Thanks again, makes sense. What is the best way to map what vehicles the storage is intended for? motorcar=yes? Access=motorcar, access=caravan would duplicate the key So it would become: shop=vehicle_storage covered=yes motorcar=yes caravan=yes On Fri Feb 20 2015 at 9:35:09 AM johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On Feb 20, 2015, at 12:04 PM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 20/02/2015 1:22 PM, johnw wrote: I think he’s trying to say that “a storage amenity” is different from a parking amenity”, because it is not something you would seek out on the map when looking for parking (even long term airport parking, i think) - but rather something you’d seek out when looking for a storage facility for your vehicle, where the vehicle spends most of it’s life parked, instead of (illegally) in front of your house. But the proposal says it uses the same rendering as other amenity=parking ... Sorry, I was an idiot, I was reading the comments but neglected the actual proposal. You’re right. However, to me, this is a service that assists you with storage of what happens to be a vehicle (AKA a commercial service) so it either is a business or a retail establishment service - not a parking amenity - it has very different access expectations ( you can’t walk up to it, you can’t access it, you need to arrange ahead of time to access it if it is a business). A long term storage lot is parking for the storage business - which is totally covered by parking + private - but I thought he was trying to define the “Vehecle Storage business” - and I commented that it is also an amenity for certain facilities and complexes. The “service” of storing the Vehicle is a business beyond providing local parking - and like a car mechanic or a car wash, services *to the car for the owner* should be somehow reflected in a business sense - not through a variation of the parking lot itself. It’s hard to convey the difference between parking and storage, but it feels like that difference belongs outside the parking tag. amenity=vehicle_storage? That would be good for a private space provided in a larger facility to it’s patrons (like a Planned community)- That would mean it can’t be amenity=parking, right? How would you define it as a business? Most money for services” - like a hair dresser are under the shop=• tag, Even car repair - which is similarly a place you take your car and pay for a service performed to it (which can be labor-only), so I thought making a new value for shop=* would be a natural choice. In summary: Amenity=Vehicle_storage sounds great for when it is an amenity of a lager facility shop=vehicle_storage sounds great for a business that offers this service. If you are looking for Vehicle storage services, a bunch of arrows popping up on lots in planned communities and military bases that you can never use isn’t very useful. Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
2015-02-20 13:42 GMT+01:00 Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com: So it would become: shop=vehicle_storage covered=yes motorcar=yes caravan=yes I wouldn't use the shop key but something like amenity, and motorcar is a legal access restriction, so should be something different as well. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
Sent from my iPhone On Feb 20, 2015, at 9:47 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-02-20 13:42 GMT+01:00 Jan van Bekkum jan.vanbek...@gmail.com: So it would become: shop=vehicle_storage covered=yes motorcar=yes caravan=yes I wouldn't use the shop key but something like amenity, and motorcar is a legal access restriction, so should be something different as well. From my earlier post : ~~~ Amenity=Vehicle_storage sounds great for when it is an amenity of a lager facility shop=vehicle_storage sounds great for a business that offers this service. If you are looking for Vehicle storage services, a bunch of arrows popping up on lots in planned communities and military bases that you can never use isn’t very useful. ~~~ You are right about the vehicle tag - what values do you suggest? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
Please have a look at this feature proposal http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/parking%3Dcar_storage . *Jan van Bekkum* www.DeEinderVoorbij.nl ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
Would apply to travellers flying or going on a sea voyage for some time. The parking= key looks to give information on the physical layout of the parking - underground/ground level only, multi-story etc. So may not be the best place for this information? Would not the tag maxstay give some clue? Maybe a value of 'storage' here would be best? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxstay , On 20/02/2015 9:09 AM, Jan van Bekkum wrote: Please have a look at this feature proposal http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/parking%3Dcar_storage. /Jan van Bekkum/ www.DeEinderVoorbij.nl http://www.DeEinderVoorbij.nl ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
Oh .. you want to determine if the parking is covered or not? then http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:covered and/or use the present values of the key parking= underground, sheds, carports, garage_boxes, multi-storey ? any other value or missing tags take as uncovered? Adds no tags .. just uses the present ones. Easy? On 20/02/2015 9:09 AM, Jan van Bekkum wrote: Please have a look at this feature proposal http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/parking%3Dcar_storage. /Jan van Bekkum/ www.DeEinderVoorbij.nl http://www.DeEinderVoorbij.nl ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
Thanks, this makes much sense. - I will update the proposal to use the key covered instead of different values for the type of storage - I will also change car to vehicle covering caravans, boats, etc. as well - I agree that amenity or shop would be better that parking as the typical characteristics differ from a regular parking and you would not choose for the facility if you look for long time parking at an airport: - Storing and retrieving is often by appointment only ( a few days in advance) - Focus is on best capacity use, not on easy access: you may not be allowed to park your vehicle yourself and it may be needed to move 5 vehicles before yours can be reached - Oten additional services are provided: disconnecting and connecting batteries, monthly starting, small service jobs - Amenity is better than shop: most shops are not delivering a service, but goods only; this is comparable with other types of parking Regards, Jan van Bekkum On Fri Feb 20 2015 at 5:09:59 AM Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 6:22 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: I think he’s trying to say that “a storage amenity” is different from a parking amenity”, because it is not something you would seek out on the map when looking for parking (even long term airport parking, i think) - but rather something you’d seek out when looking for a storage facility for your vehicle, where the vehicle spends most of it’s life parked +1 these are different. Fact is rendered maps get boiled down to simple symbols. If a [P] parking symbol on a map is to have any meaning, it has to be a lot one could actually park at. The same goes for toilets: imagine of the map was cluttered with toilet symbols most of which you could not actually use. Long term vehicle storage is not the same as parking. Parking lots break down into: 1) Public, free 2) Public, paid 3) Destination only, free 4) Destination only, paid 5) Private The gray area are nominally shoppers only destination parking lots where nobody enforces the rule. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 6:22 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: I think he’s trying to say that “a storage amenity” is different from a parking amenity”, because it is not something you would seek out on the map when looking for parking (even long term airport parking, i think) - but rather something you’d seek out when looking for a storage facility for your vehicle, where the vehicle spends most of it’s life parked +1 these are different. Fact is rendered maps get boiled down to simple symbols. If a [P] parking symbol on a map is to have any meaning, it has to be a lot one could actually park at. The same goes for toilets: imagine of the map was cluttered with toilet symbols most of which you could not actually use. Long term vehicle storage is not the same as parking. Parking lots break down into: 1) Public, free 2) Public, paid 3) Destination only, free 4) Destination only, paid 5) Private The gray area are nominally shoppers only destination parking lots where nobody enforces the rule. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
I think he’s trying to say that “a storage amenity” is different from a parking amenity”, because it is not something you would seek out on the map when looking for parking (even long term airport parking, i think) - but rather something you’d seek out when looking for a storage facility for your vehicle, where the vehicle spends most of it’s life parked, instead of (illegally) in front of your house. But I think the mapping of the actual parking lot would still be done with the amenity=parking tag (access private), and the land would be landuse=retail, with a shop=storage tag? perhaps shop=vehicle_storage, because some people store boats, planes, etc, and is different than a storage locker rental, unless there is some kind of storage=*key to define what kind of storage the shop rents out (lockers, rooms, garages, vehicle parking, yes) - some storage facilities offer all of them in a single facility. Some planned neighborhoods and places with strict rules about parking on the street or in driveways often have storage parking lots in a fenced area in the neighborhood that is for the resident’s storage of large vehicles (motorhomes, etc) - not guest parking or resident parking - just perpetual oversized vehicle parking. is there someway to tag a parking lot in some way as “storage”? This kind of storage is common near military bases, where the soldiers leave their vehicles when they deploy, and the rest of their belongings are in storage - as they don’t have a home or apartment to leave their vehicle at. Often times it is not actually part of the base grounds. maybe amenity:parking=vehicle_storage ? or amenity=parking + storage=vehicle_storage . my ideas. javbw On Feb 20, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Oh .. you want to determine if the parking is covered or not? then http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:covered http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:covered and/or use the present values of the key parking= underground, sheds, carports, garage_boxes, multi-storey ? any other value or missing tags take as uncovered? Adds no tags .. just uses the present ones. Easy? On 20/02/2015 9:09 AM, Jan van Bekkum wrote: Please have a look at this feature proposal http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/parking%3Dcar_storage. Jan van Bekkum www.DeEinderVoorbij.nl http://www.deeindervoorbij.nl/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org mailto:Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - parking=storage: additional values for key parking
On 20/02/2015 1:22 PM, johnw wrote: I think he’s trying to say that “a storage amenity” is different from a parking amenity”, because it is not something you would seek out on the map when looking for parking (even long term airport parking, i think) - but rather something you’d seek out when looking for a storage facility for your vehicle, where the vehicle spends most of it’s life parked, instead of (illegally) in front of your house. But the proposal says it uses the same rendering as other amenity=parking ... But I think the mapping of the actual parking lot would still be done with the amenity=parking tag (access private), and the land would be landuse=retail, with a shop=storage tag? Some 'storage shops' here sell bags and boxes for storing stuff in.. not space for stuff to be stored in. 'Storage facilities' .. for storage of stuff would be the description here.. perhaps shop=vehicle_storage, because some people store boats, planes, etc, and is different than a storage locker rental, unless there is some kind of storage=*key to define what kind of storage the shop rents out (lockers, rooms, garages, vehicle parking, yes) - some storage facilities offer all of them in a single facility. maybe amenity:parking=vehicle_storage ? or amenity=parking + storage=vehicle_storage . my ideas. amenity=vehicle_storage? javbw Note the page mentions 'reliable storage' .. I'd think the reliability would not be assessed by OSM... nor that kind of information put in the data base ... too many problems with it. I personally have a tendency not to map those places with a poor reputation... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
