Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Aquatics centre
Matthijs Melissen wrote on 2016/01/09 21:38: On 5 January 2016 at 11:25, Tom Pfeifer wrote: I think the proposal has been rushed into voting prematurely, with just 5 days from draft on 25 Dec, during the holiday seasons where many people might be mapping away from home ;-) It was in fact 7 days, This is somehow true, but there are several excuses I could choose from: - I'm notoriously bad in simple arithmetic, that's why I started building computers, - being into computers, you can have a off-by-one-error on both ends of this holiday week, - in this particular week, the movements of Santa Claus cause time-warps. tom ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Aquatics centre
On 5 January 2016 at 11:25, Tom Pfeifer wrote: > I think the proposal has been rushed into voting prematurely, with just 5 > days > from draft on 25 Dec, during the holiday seasons where many people might be > mapping away from home ;-) It was in fact 7 days, but your point is still standing. Some users have requested an extension of the voting period. I doubt an extension will change the outcome of either of the proposals (Aquatics centre and Discourage amenity=swimming pool), but if people prefer more time I don't mind either. I therefore have extended the voting period for both proposals by an additional week. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Aquatics centre
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2016/01/06 16:46: I'd question whether you can't do anything else besides the sport the facility is built for. Have a look at upcoming events at the Berlin velodrome: [...] Huge stadiums are often used for concerts. Yes of course you can use the sports_centre differently, you can have a concert, you can have a flea market when there is no ice in the rink, put a refugee tent on the soccer ground, and you could rent the aquatics centre for a romantic wedding around the pool, without jumping in. Still the main purpose is a sports_centre :-) Also aquatics centres can be used differently, e.g. this one: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtbad_Oderberger_Straße The difference is that this is an ex-location, there's neither the water nor the air temperature but just the structure, > this wouldn't get the tag leisure=aquatics_centre (but likely a building tag that's informative). Yes we are in sync at this point, it is comparable to a former church building now used for concerts or climbing. tom ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Aquatics centre
sent from a phone > Am 06.01.2016 um 16:12 schrieb Tom Pfeifer : > > You have the Velodrome for track cycling, baseball campuses, stadiums where > you can > perform nothing else than american football or hurling, the ice rink for > hockey and > figure skating, and those aquatic sport_centres. I'd question whether you can't do anything else besides the sport the facility is built for. Have a look at upcoming events at the Berlin velodrome: http://www.velodrom.de/events-und-tickets/veranstaltungskalender/ Huge stadiums are often used for concerts. Also aquatics centres can be used differently, e.g. this one: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadtbad_Oderberger_Straße The difference is that this is an ex-location, there's neither the water nor the air temperature but just the structure, this wouldn't get the tag leisure=aquatics_centre (but likely a building tag that's informative). cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Aquatics centre
On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:02 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: my opinion on this is that swimming is so different from other sports that I'd use a different main tag for the structure. John Willis wrote on 2016/01/06 02:35: Most "sports centres" are built around the idea of pitches/fields/courts of some sort. [...] Aquatics center is its own beast. It is a stand-alone facility dedicated to swimming, > with 1 main pool and related facilities (usually many pools) and no pitches ... But the stand-alone criterion holds for other sports as well. You have multi-purpose sports_centres, opposed to single-purpose ones. You have the Velodrome for track cycling, baseball campuses, stadiums where you can perform nothing else than american football or hurling, the ice rink for hockey and figure skating, and those aquatic sport_centres. But they are all purpose-built to perform one to many sports. The distinguishing criterion is a different one - it is whether to use the purpose-built place (at least for the organised form), or use other facilities: such as the highways for the marathon, the countryside for cross-country skiing, the natural rock for outdoor climbing. Downhill skiing comes in between with the slope dedicated for the season. tom ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Aquatics centre
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2016/01/05 13:02: 2016-01-05 12:44 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer: leisure=ducking vs. leisure=sports_centre sports_centre=ducking What is your stance on leisure=pitch sport=diving/swimming ? (I'm not proposing this, it is just a question to understand your proposal). If I understand your question correctly, you are probing how far I would go with structuring. As you pointed out in the other thread, we need a balance between tag detail and structure, your example above (merging pools under pitch) would tip towards over-structuring. As for the actual place of performing the sport, we have leisure=track for predominantly 1-dimensional performance, pitch for a ground where players move in two dimensions, and pool which adds depth. That we currently tag swimming_pool probably also when it is used for diving is due to history and helps to remind the human mapper that it is not a pool table, taginfo(diving_pool)=0, so while I would not start from scratch with it, but keep it as we have it. tom ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Aquatics centre
John, I think you will find that many water/ice sports including the ones you mention have specific requirements regarding the pools/rinks. A pool for water polo/swimming/diving/ice hockey as a proper sport requires that a pool/rink be of a certain shape, size and depth and with certain markings, and be fitted with certain features such as starting blocks and goals. It's like a "pitch" with surface=water/ice. Yes I know you can swim as a leisure activity in almost any bit of water, but you can also play soccer in the park with jumpers as goalposts. But that is just a leisure activity, not an organised sport as such. --colin On 2016-01-06 02:35, John Willis wrote: >> On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:02 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer >> wrote: >> >> my opinion on this is that swimming is so different from other sports that >> I'd use a different main tag for the structure. > > +1 > > Most "sports centres" are built around the idea of pitches/fields/courts of > some sort. Solid expanses of walkable area, with specialty rooms for > individual sports that also take place while on solid ground. > > These are multiuse facilities, usually, built around the idea of pitches. > Even with nets and lines, many sports can be played on a single pitch - but > swimming/water polo/diving doesn't use pitches. It is not a specialized > pitch, like a tennis court or soccer field. This is similar to ice > skating/hockey and skiing/mountain biking runs. They are not pitches in the > normal sense. > > So facilities that cater to pitch oriented and related sports are easily > called a sports centre - our sports centres also have kendo/judo and Sumo > rooms, as well as normal wrestling - but you would expect to find > wrestling/gymnastics/weightlifting at a sports centre. Specialized sports, > but still on foot. > > A really large sports centre may have a pool on the grounds as well. It is > merely a pool. > > Aquatics center is its own beast. It is a stand-alone facility dedicated to > swimming, with 1 main pool and related facilities (usually many pools) and no > pitches - a separation seen in real life throughout the world. > > Javbw > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Aquatics centre
> On Jan 5, 2016, at 9:02 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote: > > my opinion on this is that swimming is so different from other sports that > I'd use a different main tag for the structure. +1 Most "sports centres" are built around the idea of pitches/fields/courts of some sort. Solid expanses of walkable area, with specialty rooms for individual sports that also take place while on solid ground. These are multiuse facilities, usually, built around the idea of pitches. Even with nets and lines, many sports can be played on a single pitch - but swimming/water polo/diving doesn't use pitches. It is not a specialized pitch, like a tennis court or soccer field. This is similar to ice skating/hockey and skiing/mountain biking runs. They are not pitches in the normal sense. So facilities that cater to pitch oriented and related sports are easily called a sports centre - our sports centres also have kendo/judo and Sumo rooms, as well as normal wrestling - but you would expect to find wrestling/gymnastics/weightlifting at a sports centre. Specialized sports, but still on foot. A really large sports centre may have a pool on the grounds as well. It is merely a pool. Aquatics center is its own beast. It is a stand-alone facility dedicated to swimming, with 1 main pool and related facilities (usually many pools) and no pitches - a separation seen in real life throughout the world. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Aquatics centre
2016-01-05 12:44 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer : > Martin, the purpose of my discussion is not to nit-pick on the > illustrative extra tags, > but to discuss > >leisure=ducking > > vs. > >leisure=sports_centre >sports_centre=ducking > my opinion on this is that swimming is so different from other sports that I'd use a different main tag for the structure. The same would apply to ice skating or skiing by the way. What is your stance on leisure=pitch sport=diving/swimming ? (I'm not proposing this, it is just a question to understand your proposal). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Aquatics centre
Martin, the purpose of my discussion is not to nit-pick on the illustrative extra tags, but to discuss leisure=ducking vs. leisure=sports_centre sports_centre=ducking Anything else was just Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2016/01/05 12:02: > I think that this approach is not working well, as there is no "natural" logic for subtags like "sports_centre". > Have a look in taginfo and discover, that "commercial" is a common value for this key, nothing that would fit well together with "aquatics" . I had of course, and so far sports_centre=* is used 51 times, 24 of them "gym" and 5 "commercial". This is some natural noise for an undocumented tag that has some sporadic use. * leisure=sports_centre * sports_centre=golf_course -1, there's no gain from this (IMHO), just the loss of having to use 2 tags rather than one. Yes the disadvantage of having more structure is at least a second tag. It works well in some schemes, look at social_facility. why would you need sport=golf for objects with a "golf" key? Maybe we don't, that would be subject to refined discussion once we have an opinion about the principal issue. tom ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Aquatics centre
2016-01-05 11:25 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer : > area outline: > * leisure=sports_centre > * sports_centre=aquatics > I think that this approach is not working well, as there is no "natural" logic for subtags like "sports_centre". Have a look in taginfo and discover, that "commercial" is a common value for this key, nothing that would fit well together with "aquatics" . > the pools: > * leisure=swimming_pool > * access=customers > * sport=swimming (or diving or other water sport) > IMHO we don't need individual access tags as long as the facility is inside a bigger aquatics centre (which could get tags like fee=yes or similar). > > the extra facilities > * leisure=pitch > * sport=volleyball > yes, these are undisputed and this is independent from the tag for the whole facility. > > Consequently, we could discourage leisure=golf_course, and introduce: > > area outline: > * leisure=sports_centre > * sports_centre=golf_course > -1, there's no gain from this (IMHO), just the loss of having to use 2 tags rather than one. > > the golfing details: > * golf=* as defined in the wiki > * sport=golf > why would you need sport=golf for objects with a "golf" key? Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Aquatics centre
Matthijs Melissen wrote on 2016/01/01 22:47: Hi all, Voting on the proposal for the tag leisure=aquatics_centre is now open. You can vote here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Aquatics_centre I think the proposal has been rushed into voting prematurely, with just 5 days from draft on 25 Dec, during the holiday seasons where many people might be mapping away from home ;-) While the tag has some initial beauty, it leads to further fragmentation of a primary key -- a fragmentation that the parallel proposal of deprecating amenity=swimming_pool tries to reduce. Having a new key for a sports facility for a specific kind of sport forces a data consumer just interested in distinguishing sports grounds from other features, without being interested in the specific kind of sport, to implement another value for the leisure key. The issue boils down into duck tagging vs. structured tagging, which I'll analyse in a separate mail, anyway a structured approach could look as follows: For an aquatics centre with predominant swimming facilities, and a volleyball pitch for warm-up: area outline: * leisure=sports_centre * sports_centre=aquatics the pools: * leisure=swimming_pool * access=customers * sport=swimming (or diving or other water sport) the extra facilities * leisure=pitch * sport=volleyball Consequently, we could discourage leisure=golf_course, and introduce: area outline: * leisure=sports_centre * sports_centre=golf_course the golfing details: * golf=* as defined in the wiki * sport=golf the extra facilities * leisure=swimming_pool tom ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Aquatics centre
Hi all, Voting on the proposal for the tag leisure=aquatics_centre is now open. You can vote here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Aquatics_centre I would like to thank in advance anybody voting on this proposal. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
