Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-20 Thread François Lacombe
street_cabinet and technical_cabinet where both given to map the same
feature. They're not opposed.

The only implicit size information given by them is only that workers can't
enter inside to work as opposed to building.

Detailed volume and dimensions stay in width=*, length=* and height=*.

*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux

2014-11-19 23:27 GMT+01:00 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com:

 How does the term street cabinet, as opposed to technical cabinet,
 give information on the cabinet's size?


 On November 17, 2014 3:25:46 AM CST, Martin Koppenhoefer 
 dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:


 2014-11-14 10:57 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe fl.infosrese...@gmail.com:

 I personnaly find some interest in man_made=technical_cabinet instead of
 man_made=street_cabinet
 The street term is certainly restrictive when such cabinet can be
 found far from streets.

 man_made=street_cabinet should be documented as expected regarding the
 vote but we also should deal with mistakes before widely use keys.
 I'm really puzzled and sorry regarding this particular point.



 I prefer the street cabinet term to a more generic technical cabinet,
 as it gives approximative information both on size and that it is an
 outdoor facility.

 cheers,
 Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-20 10:09 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe fl.infosrese...@gmail.com:

 Detailed volume and dimensions stay in width=*, length=* and height=*.




width and length can also be mapped geometrically (if you are into micro
mapping) as an area/polygon.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-20 Thread althio forum
Hi John, I was curious about that too.

François, Martin, the question is related to this statement by Martin:
 I prefer the street cabinet term to a more generic technical cabinet, as
 it gives approximative information both on size [snip].

Hence the question by John:
 How does the term street cabinet, as opposed to technical cabinet, give
 information on the cabinet's size?

Apparently François you do not agree that implicit size differs:
 street_cabinet and technical_cabinet where both given to map the same 
 feature. They're not opposed.
 The only implicit size information given by them is only that workers can't 
 enter inside to work as opposed to building.

This is a mere detail and it does not change the consensus expressed
in favour of street cabinet.
Still I did not understand this particular argument.
Could someone who understood or Martin explain it in a few more words?

althio

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-20 17:39 GMT+01:00 althio forum althio.fo...@gmail.com:

 Could someone who understood or Martin explain it in a few more words?



actually you may be right, the cabinet part is the one suggesting some
kind of size class. The term street is suggesting an outdoor enclosement,
which a technical cabinet IMHO would not imply (on the contrary, searching
images for this term on the web I found mostly chinese indoor equipment).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-20 17:49 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:

 2014-11-20 17:39 GMT+01:00 althio forum althio.fo...@gmail.com:

 Could someone who understood or Martin explain it in a few more words?



 actually you may be right, the cabinet part is the one suggesting some
 kind of size class. The term street is suggesting an outdoor enclosement,
 which a technical cabinet IMHO would not imply



this was btw. also what I had written above (in your citation this was the
[snip] part).
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-19 Thread John F. Eldredge
How does the term street cabinet, as opposed to technical cabinet, give 
information on the cabinet's size?


On November 17, 2014 3:25:46 AM CST, Martin Koppenhoefer 
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 2014-11-14 10:57 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe
 fl.infosrese...@gmail.com:
 
  I personnaly find some interest in man_made=technical_cabinet
 instead of
  man_made=street_cabinet
  The street term is certainly restrictive when such cabinet can be
 found
  far from streets.
 
  man_made=street_cabinet should be documented as expected regarding
 the
  vote but we also should deal with mistakes before widely use keys.
  I'm really puzzled and sorry regarding this particular point.
 
 
 
 I prefer the street cabinet term to a more generic technical
 cabinet, as
 it gives approximative information both on size and that it is an
 outdoor
 facility.
 
 cheers,
 Martin
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-18 8:32 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com:

 updated the talk page with a short description of use and two pictures.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made=street_cabinet

 This is why the Key value of “Street cabinet” is useful, as opposed to
 “Techincal cabinet” because the currently approved “mail relay” cabinet is
 not technical in the slightest. Neither is this waste collection/relay
 cabinet - but all of them are metal boxes along the side of streets.



yes, they are metal boxes alongside streets (like post boxes and letter
boxes are for instance), but they do not fit the definition of street
cabinet according to the wiki, unless waste qualifies as sort of
equipment:

A *street cabinet* hosts many sorts of equipment, often technical stuff,
while being of a size or contruction that workers cannot enter themselves.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-18 Thread johnw
Then how did mail relay box sneak through then? It was part of the initial 
proposal. It’s a box full of letters/parcels.

Javbw.




 On Nov 18, 2014, at 7:33 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
 
 2014-11-18 8:32 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com mailto:jo...@mac.com:
 updated the talk page with a short description of use and two pictures. 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made=street_cabinet
 
 This is why the Key value of “Street cabinet” is useful, as opposed to 
 “Techincal cabinet” because the currently approved “mail relay” cabinet is 
 not technical in the slightest. Neither is this waste collection/relay 
 cabinet - but all of them are metal boxes along the side of streets. 
 
 
 yes, they are metal boxes alongside streets (like post boxes and letter boxes 
 are for instance), but they do not fit the definition of street cabinet 
 according to the wiki, unless waste qualifies as sort of equipment:
 
 A street cabinet hosts many sorts of equipment, often technical stuff, while 
 being of a size or contruction that workers cannot enter themselves.
 
 cheers,
 Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-18 11:51 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com:

 Then how did mail relay box sneak through then? It was part of the initial
 proposal. It’s a box full of letters/parcels.



not sure how that has happened ;-)
I completely agree with you that it doesn't fit the definition.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-18 Thread François Lacombe
Automated containers for garbage collecting actually exists with kind of
systems depending on how rubbishes are collected :

- Monitoring to warn operator of an undergoing overflow
- Control to allow automatic collecting (often pneumatic)

technical equipment is a generic term, not only hard-to-understand
electronic devices
It should be considered at a large sense

How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?
Such relay boxes are key-part of national postal infrastructure.

*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux

2014-11-18 11:56 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:


 2014-11-18 11:51 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com:

 Then how did mail relay box sneak through then? It was part of the
 initial proposal. It’s a box full of letters/parcels.



 not sure how that has happened ;-)
 I completely agree with you that it doesn't fit the definition.

 cheers,
 Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-18 Thread John Willis


 On Nov 18, 2014, at 9:50 PM, François Lacombe fl.infosrese...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 
 How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?
 Such relay boxes are key-part of national postal infrastructure.

I thought it fit well enough, so I voted yes. I also saw a solution to my 
cabinet problem as well - so I suggested the waste value during voting. 

~~

Do we sort everything by function? By method? By operator? By location? By size 
? By type of medium handled?

Everything eventually falls into every category. There's always going to be 
something about every value that makes it a rough fit - at least with the way 
tagging seems to be currently. 

Do we need a mail subkey? A waste subkey? I don't know. 

Adding a value or two to a key gets questioned as to its fit with existing 
categories, and creating a category creates questions of scope. It seems to be 
very difficult to find the happy center. 

Congratulations on getting street_cabinet approved, I hope my proposals are as 
lucky. 

J 



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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-18 13:50 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe fl.infosrese...@gmail.com:

 Automated containers for garbage collecting actually exists with kind of
 systems depending on how rubbishes are collected :

 - Monitoring to warn operator of an undergoing overflow
 - Control to allow automatic collecting (often pneumatic)



yes, there are also systems in some places to weigh the garbage you insert
in order to calculate a fee. Still not convinced, because most trash
container enclosements aren't technical and also those that do have
technical devices are containers for trash, not for devices/tools.

I don't see the point in having telecom switches in the same category with
trash bins.




 technical equipment is a generic term, not only hard-to-understand
 electronic devices
 It should be considered at a large sense



agreed.




 How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?



postal_relay_box / mail_relay_box / postal_street_relay


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-18 15:50 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:


 How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?

 postal_relay_box / mail_relay_box / postal_street_relay



I have been looking around in taginfo and have found these in use:

-  1 man_made=post_delivery_storage_box
-  278 amenity=relay_box  -- these are all from user andrewpmk and seem to
be all operated by Canada Post
-  2 amenity=relay_post_box

I'd go for amenity=postal_relay_box as it is more specific/clear than
without the postal prefix

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-18 Thread François Lacombe
I would love to read feedbacks on man_made=street_cabinet +
street_cabinet=postal_service vs amenity=relay_box

IMHO, amenity=relay_box doesn't sound like a postal box at first sight.
What is relayed inside ?


All the best


*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux

2014-11-18 16:03 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:


 2014-11-18 15:50 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:
 
 
  How would you tag a mail relay box differently ?
 
  postal_relay_box / mail_relay_box / postal_street_relay



 I have been looking around in taginfo and have found these in use:

 -  1 man_made=post_delivery_storage_box
 -  278 amenity=relay_box  -- these are all from user andrewpmk and seem
 to be all operated by Canada Post
 -  2 amenity=relay_post_box

 I'd go for amenity=postal_relay_box as it is more specific/clear than
 without the postal prefix

 cheers,
 Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-14 10:57 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe fl.infosrese...@gmail.com:

 I personnaly find some interest in man_made=technical_cabinet instead of
 man_made=street_cabinet
 The street term is certainly restrictive when such cabinet can be found
 far from streets.

 man_made=street_cabinet should be documented as expected regarding the
 vote but we also should deal with mistakes before widely use keys.
 I'm really puzzled and sorry regarding this particular point.



I prefer the street cabinet term to a more generic technical cabinet, as
it gives approximative information both on size and that it is an outdoor
facility.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread François Lacombe
Hi all,

Thank you Martin

It has been documented as voted yesterday
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Street_cabinet

A disambiguation chapter has been added to help anyone who want to deal
with traffic signals or accepted monitoring stations
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Street_cabinet#Disambiguation

Feel free to come on Talk page to discuss unclear points


All the best

*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux

2014-11-17 10:25 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:


 2014-11-14 10:57 GMT+01:00 François Lacombe fl.infosrese...@gmail.com:

 I personnaly find some interest in man_made=technical_cabinet instead of
 man_made=street_cabinet
 The street term is certainly restrictive when such cabinet can be found
 far from streets.

 man_made=street_cabinet should be documented as expected regarding the
 vote but we also should deal with mistakes before widely use keys.
 I'm really puzzled and sorry regarding this particular point.



 I prefer the street cabinet term to a more generic technical cabinet, as
 it gives approximative information both on size and that it is an outdoor
 facility.

 cheers,
 Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread johnw
How would I go about documenting the garbage/refuse cabinets? Just get a 
picture and put it into the wiki, or is there some other way?

because it is a brand new proposal, I’m unsure of the procedure to extend it. 

Javbw

 
 It has been documented as voted yesterday
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Street_cabinet 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Street_cabinet
 
 A disambiguation chapter has been added to help anyone who want to deal with 
 traffic signals or accepted monitoring stations
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Street_cabinet#Disambiguation 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Street_cabinet#Disambiguation
 
 Feel free to come on Talk page to discuss unclear points
 

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread François Lacombe
A large amount of values can be added to street_cabinet key.

I think you should only open a thread on Talk page to let other
contributors discuss about it and relay the discussion here on @tagging
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet

No need to complex proposal process IMHO.

*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux

2014-11-17 12:00 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com:

 How would I go about documenting the garbage/refuse cabinets? Just get a
 picture and put it into the wiki, or is there some other way?

 because it is a brand new proposal, I’m unsure of the procedure to extend
 it.

 Javbw


 It has been documented as voted yesterday
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Street_cabinet

 A disambiguation chapter has been added to help anyone who want to deal
 with traffic signals or accepted monitoring stations
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Street_cabinet#Disambiguation

 Feel free to come on Talk page to discuss unclear points



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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread althio forum
adding to Talk page

On naming of newly voted man_made=street_cabinet
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet

A few old  new proposals for actual naming are:
man_made=street_cabinet
man_made=technical_cabinet
man_made=outdoor_cabinet
man_made=cabinet

man_made=street_cabinet
is implicitly rejecting 'countryside cabinet' or cabinets in
motorways, parks, fields, train stations, airports and so on.

man_made=technical_cabinet
is quite generic. Is it excluding any kind of non-technical cabinet? I
guess containers and collecting points are out of the scope with other
tagging schemes, aren't they?

man_made=outdoor_cabinet
is also quite generic. Is it excluding any kind of cabinet?

man_made=cabinet
is very generic, can serve as basis for a lot of equipment and
applications, can be refined with namespace/subkey.

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 12:05 PM, François Lacombe
fl.infosrese...@gmail.com wrote:
 A large amount of values can be added to street_cabinet key.

 I think you should only open a thread on Talk page to let other contributors
 discuss about it and relay the discussion here on @tagging
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:man_made%3Dstreet_cabinet

 No need to complex proposal process IMHO.

 François Lacombe

 fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
 www.infos-reseaux.com
 @InfosReseaux

 2014-11-17 12:00 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com:

 How would I go about documenting the garbage/refuse cabinets? Just get a
 picture and put it into the wiki, or is there some other way?

 because it is a brand new proposal, I’m unsure of the procedure to extend
 it.

 Javbw


 It has been documented as voted yesterday
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Street_cabinet

 A disambiguation chapter has been added to help anyone who want to deal
 with traffic signals or accepted monitoring stations
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Street_cabinet#Disambiguation

 Feel free to come on Talk page to discuss unclear points



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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-17 12:10 GMT+01:00 althio forum althio.fo...@gmail.com:


FWIW, the term man_made=street_cabinet has just been approved by almost
unanimous voting. Why does this discussion start now?



man_made=street_cabinet
 is implicitly rejecting 'countryside cabinet' or cabinets in
 motorways, parks, fields, train stations, airports and so on.



IMHO it is not. Don't read this overliterally.




 man_made=technical_cabinet
 is quite generic. Is it excluding any kind of non-technical cabinet? I
 guess containers and collecting points are out of the scope with other
 tagging schemes, aren't they?



it is including all kind of indoor cabinets (which typically serve
different purpose, i.e. are part of a factory or similar and serve a single
client).




 man_made=outdoor_cabinet
 is also quite generic. Is it excluding any kind of cabinet?



it is including all kind of weather proof cabinets like the one in my
garden or on the balcony to store the tools (I think). Too generic IMHO.





 man_made=cabinet
 is very generic, can serve as basis for a lot of equipment and
 applications, can be refined with namespace/subkey.



way too generic IMHO. Every tagging scheme has to find the right way
between too generic and too specific, but typically very broad terms that
don't say much and require additional tags to make sense are working less
well in our environment (e.g. highway=bus_stop works better with the common
tools than the newer public transport scheme which still cannot be used by
the osm-cartostyle because of missing information (no bus-key in the
rendering db)). This might be also seen as problem of dataconsumers which
rely on dedicated columns for every single key they want to know about (and
can be resolved by using different data storage methods like hstore
columns).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread François Lacombe
Thank you Althio,

2014-11-17 12:10 GMT+01:00 althio forum althio.fo...@gmail.com:

 man_made=street_cabinet
 is implicitly rejecting 'countryside cabinet' or cabinets in
 motorways, parks, fields, train stations, airports and so on.


Yeah I would rather agree.
We also have the highway=* tag to describe one and each road, not only
high-speed ways between major cities.



 man_made=technical_cabinet
 is quite generic. Is it excluding any kind of non-technical cabinet? I
 guess containers and collecting points are out of the scope with other
 tagging schemes, aren't they?


I agree on this point, any kind of non-technical cabinet won't be covered


 man_made=outdoor_cabinet
 is also quite generic. Is it excluding any kind of cabinet?


It is excluding all indoor cabinets, especially when they're underground,
in tunnels or whatever.
We also have a generic tag to describe features' location : location=*


 man_made=cabinet
 is very generic, can serve as basis for a lot of equipment and
 applications, can be refined with namespace/subkey.


That's the simplest indeed.
If a refinement must be done, I would choose this one.


Regards

*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread François Lacombe
2014-11-17 13:19 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com:



 FWIW, the term man_made=street_cabinet has just been approved by almost
 unanimous voting. Why does this discussion start now?


Because of some comments written lately on friday evening when the vote was
about to end.

The only one opposition to the proposal was regarding the term street in
street_cabinet.
Like you I think we shouldn't read it overliterally but I'm not closed to
discuss a little more around it.

The tag is, for now, described as it was voted, strictly.


*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread Tom Pfeifer

street_cabinet=waste had already been discussed during the proposal process,
but not yet added during the voting.

the value 'waste' is more consistent with existing amenity tagging than
refuse or garbage.

I have added it to categories and examples to the wiki, feel free to add a 
picture,
some examples are linked from a search engine.

johnw wrote on 2014-11-17 12:00:

How would I go about documenting the garbage/refuse cabinets? Just get a 
picture and put it into the wiki, or is there some other way?

because it is a brand new proposal, I’m unsure of the procedure to extend it.

Javbw



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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-17 13:53 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer t.pfei...@computer.org:

 the value 'waste' is more consistent with existing amenity tagging than
 refuse or garbage.




the objects that have been brought up as examples have been of private
nature, i.e. not an amenity for osm terms. I wouldn't include private waste
bin protection structures under the  same tag that we use to describe
switching points of technical infrastructure like the power grid or telco,
but I agree it could also be done. As it wasn't contained in the proposal
the people voted upon, I'd prefer if including them now would be a distinct
proposal.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread Jean-Marc Liotier

On 17/11/2014 13:19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


man_made=street_cabinet
is implicitly rejecting 'countryside cabinet' or cabinets in
motorways, parks, fields, train stations, airports and so on.


IMHO it is not. Don't read this overliterally.


Indeed - like 'Openstreetmap' which, as some may have noticed, is not 
actually all about streets...


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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread althio forum
Martin, Jean-Marc, I appreciate the feedback. You are voicing some
good elements. I am not totally convinced yet about generic vs
specific. Fairly generic tag like 'man_made=cabinet' sounds very
sensible as first level. Furthermore I do feel other proposal I have
seen like 'street_' and 'technical_' are not necessary and not even
useful.

[Derailing a bit]
IMO it is a poor justification to compare a brand new tag (here
'street_cabinet') with the 10-year old established name of the project
'Openstreetmap'.
Even more... Historical justification is sometimes inevitable but
often it is rather unsatisfactory in my mind.
If the name of the project 'Openstreetmap' could be easily changed or
created today... maybe something else (better?) would appear instead.
Not the subject here.

[Not too serious]
We have street_lamp [could be lamp, lamppost, light_source] and now
street_cabinet [could be technical_cabinet, outdoor_cabinet,
cabinet]...
I don't want street_tree_row, street_pole, street_surveillance,
street_bicycle_parking, street_atm, street_clock, street_post_box, and
street_crossing.
But who want to play street_hockey and enjoy street_art? :)
[/Not too serious]

[/Derailing]

Back to our cabinets?

Have a nice day

On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 2:05 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote:
 On 17/11/2014 13:19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


 man_made=street_cabinet
 is implicitly rejecting 'countryside cabinet' or cabinets in
 motorways, parks, fields, train stations, airports and so on.


 IMHO it is not. Don't read this overliterally.


 Indeed - like 'Openstreetmap' which, as some may have noticed, is not
 actually all about streets...


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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread Jean-Marc Liotier

On 17/11/2014 15:14, althio forum wrote:

Martin, Jean-Marc, I appreciate the feedback. You are voicing some
good elements. I am not totally convinced yet about generic vs
specific. Fairly generic tag like 'man_made=cabinet' sounds very
sensible as first level. Furthermore I do feel other proposal I have
seen like 'street_' and 'technical_' are not necessary and not even
useful.

[Derailing a bit]
IMO it is a poor justification to compare a brand new tag (here
'street_cabinet') with the 10-year old established name of the project
'Openstreetmap'.

Even more... Historical justification is sometimes inevitable but
often it is rather unsatisfactory in my mind. [..]


I may have been stretching the 'Openstreetmap' case a bit. I agree with 
your arguments - my personal choice would be technical_cabinet. I 
nevertheless chose to approve the proposal because I considered this 
issue minor compared to all the work that went in organizing the 
scheme... The issue smelt a lot like bikeshedding to me and experience 
in free software projects shows that it is usually better to avoid focus 
on that. I may be wrong - it could also be a fundamental modeling issue 
that we will regret eternally.


One may have suspected a French telco etymological bias as we call those 
cabinets 'armoires de rue' - literally 'street cabinet'... But as the 
proposal's page history and its approval signatures show, the consensus 
is actually international. So for once, the French telco mafia is not to 
blame.



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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-11-17 15:43 GMT+01:00 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org:

 One may have suspected a French telco etymological bias as we call those
 cabinets 'armoires de rue' - literally 'street cabinet'... But as the
 proposal's page history and its approval signatures show, the consensus is
 actually international.



yes, street cabinet is the actual name for this kind of thing, so using
this as tag seems best to describe what this proposal aims to describe.
Simply search for street cabinet in google (or another image search
engine) then research images for technical cabinet and you can see that
the current name is chosen well.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread althio forum
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote:
 I agree with your arguments - my personal choice would be technical_cabinet.

 I nevertheless chose to approve the proposal because I considered this issue 
 minor compared
 to all the work that went in organizing the scheme...

 experience in free software projects shows that
 it is usually better to avoid focus on that. I may be wrong - it could also
 be a fundamental modeling issue that we will regret eternally.

I did not vote.
I consider the naming issue minor compared to the scope of the
proposal. I consider the issue important enough since it is the
first-level key of the scheme. Does it make sense...

I feel that (maybe) voters accepted a globally good scheme (just like
you). Also maybe voters are not opposed to further discussion for
refinement once the scheme is accepted but not yet in heavy use.

I raised my concern, documented it on the Talk page, signaled it on
the tag list.
My personal choice would be 'cabinet' for the sake of correctness,
simplicity and potential evolution for uses yet unseen. Otherwise
'technical_cabinet' suits me too.

I will now keep quiet and let others voice their opinion if they want to.

althio

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread Andreas Labres
On 17.11.14 16:18, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

 yes, street cabinet is the actual name for this kind of thing, so using this
 as tag seems best to describe what this proposal aims to describe. Simply
 search for street cabinet in google (or another image search engine) then
 research images for technical cabinet and you can see that the current name
 is chosen well.

+1.

Street cabinet is a fixed technical term for those outdoor (electrical)
cabinets. Cabinet alone makes no sense as a value as it is too ambiguous (from
furniture to government). And never heard of a technical cabinet, this looks
to me like beeing invented by somebody here... ;)

/al

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-17 Thread johnw

 On Nov 17, 2014, at 11:43 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote:
 
 On 17/11/2014 15:14, althio forum wrote:
 
 I may have been stretching the 'Openstreetmap' case a bit. 

We were discussing how to properly tag kilns, with their method of firing and 
how many chimneys they have, so I don’t think you off in your description OSM 
even a little.

 If they ever retitle it - it would be “Open World map” - because people are 
now trying to tag and describe basically every mappable object in existence.

Javbw.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-14 Thread François Lacombe
Hi there,

The vote process of the street cabinet mapping proposal has been closed
yesterday evening.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet

27 users said yes against 1 no, this proposal is accepted :)
Thank you to everyone who gave feedbacks on vote and talk page.


Nevertheless, user verdy_p - who didn't make any contribution to Talk:
since RFC start - has edited the document last night as for commenting tags
usefulness.
We can't accept such methods which ruins any common efforts to get a
consensus.
I strongly encourage any responsible person of the proposal/vote process to
explain it to Verdy_p please.

I personnaly find some interest in man_made=technical_cabinet instead of
man_made=street_cabinet
The street term is certainly restrictive when such cabinet can be found
far from streets.

man_made=street_cabinet should be documented as expected regarding the vote
but we also should deal with mistakes before widely use keys.
I'm really puzzled and sorry regarding this particular point.


Best regards


*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux http://www.twitter.com/InfosReseaux

2014-11-02 13:23 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer t.pfei...@computer.org:

 Yes I agree, though making the definition more precise by adding the
 worker-can-enter criterion should be fine.

 Further examples for the street_cabinet=* vlues can be collected
 on the discussion page meanwhile.

 Marc Gemis wrote on 2014-11-01 23:30:

 I wouldn't touch the page until the voting is over. One can always add
 new values when the tag is in use and document them when needed. New
 building types are also added all the time. No need to document it right
 away.

 just my .5 cents

 m

 On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:05 PM, François Lacombe  wrote:

 Hi,

 I've already edited Rational paragraph to give a better description
 with distinction between buildings where workers can enter.

 Secondly, ok for street_cabinet=waste (and maybe 
 street_cabinet=waste_management
 if cabinets are encountered with devices to manage waste transit or storage)

 man_made=street_cabinet isn't incompatible with amenity=waste_* and
 street_cabinet=waste should concern anything regarding waste.

 I'm not so friendly with proposal editing while voting.
 Nevertheless, with such extensive keys like street_cabinet=* I think
 users won't mind if we document additional values.
 Is everybody ok with it ?

 *François Lacombe*

 francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
 http://www.infos-reseaux.com

 2014-11-01 11:04 GMT+01:00 johnw :

 Well, they re not open to the public - only the designated houses
 in the area can use their station, not anyone else. You don’t use other
 people’s stations. There is one closer to my house, but I’m not allowed to
 use it, because the one pictred is
 “ours”. it is regualrly maintained, on rotation, by the users of
 it.

 These are not public garbage cans, they are a drop-off point
 between specific customers and the garbage pickup.

 They are not completely private, like a mail transfer box, but
 they are not public either.

 Javbw

   On Oct 31, 2014, at 7:01 PM, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
  
   I would distinguish between an amenity=waste_* for structures
   that are open for everybody to bring their waste, with or
 without fee,
   thus as a POI somebody would navigate to (where can I bring my
 waste),
   and the cabinet=waste merely describing the street inventory
   (what is that odd locked box for).
  
   johnw wrote on 2014-10-31 07:00:
   I was going to suggest Waste Transfer station
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
   But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I
 expected.
  
   In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is
 collected from individual residences via bins/cans on the street
 with(enormous) trucks, so there is no static transfer points whatsoever, it
 goes from curb to landfill directly.
  
   In Japan, There are static waste collection Garbage
 stations [ゴミ ステーション] per street or area, and are often large, steel,
 screened cages that are stuffed full of 45 liter bags. There is no possible
 way fro a truck to service the myriad
 of little tiny buildings, some of them only on walking paths -
 even in cities of 100K people, so there is a garbage station for every
 20-30 houses or so, or one for a large apartment or company. Temporary ones
 are merely nets to keep the crows off
 the bags, but most are permanent ones worth mapping.
  
   My local garbage station (2 cabinets)
 http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
   a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3
  
  
   although some are old and look disused, they are used daily
 or weekly by the 

Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-02 Thread Tom Pfeifer

Yes I agree, though making the definition more precise by adding the
worker-can-enter criterion should be fine.

Further examples for the street_cabinet=* vlues can be collected
on the discussion page meanwhile.

Marc Gemis wrote on 2014-11-01 23:30:

I wouldn't touch the page until the voting is over. One can always add new 
values when the tag is in use and document them when needed. New building types 
are also added all the time. No need to document it right away.

just my .5 cents

m

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:05 PM, François Lacombe  wrote:

Hi,

I've already edited Rational paragraph to give a better description with 
distinction between buildings where workers can enter.

Secondly, ok for street_cabinet=waste (and maybe 
street_cabinet=waste_management if cabinets are encountered with devices to 
manage waste transit or storage)

man_made=street_cabinet isn't incompatible with amenity=waste_* and 
street_cabinet=waste should concern anything regarding waste.

I'm not so friendly with proposal editing while voting.
Nevertheless, with such extensive keys like street_cabinet=* I think users 
won't mind if we document additional values.
Is everybody ok with it ?

*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com

2014-11-01 11:04 GMT+01:00 johnw :

Well, they re not open to the public - only the designated houses in 
the area can use their station, not anyone else. You don’t use other people’s 
stations. There is one closer to my house, but I’m not allowed to use it, 
because the one pictred is
“ours”. it is regualrly maintained, on rotation, by the users of it.

These are not public garbage cans, they are a drop-off point between 
specific customers and the garbage pickup.

They are not completely private, like a mail transfer box, but they are 
not public either.

Javbw

  On Oct 31, 2014, at 7:01 PM, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
 
  I would distinguish between an amenity=waste_* for structures
  that are open for everybody to bring their waste, with or without 
fee,
  thus as a POI somebody would navigate to (where can I bring my 
waste),
  and the cabinet=waste merely describing the street inventory
  (what is that odd locked box for).
 
  johnw wrote on 2014-10-31 07:00:
  I was going to suggest Waste Transfer station 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
  But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I 
expected.
 
  In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is collected 
from individual residences via bins/cans on the street with(enormous) trucks, so 
there is no static transfer points whatsoever, it goes from curb to landfill directly.
 
  In Japan, There are static waste collection Garbage stations [ゴミ 
ステーション] per street or area, and are often large, steel, screened cages that are stuffed full of 
45 liter bags. There is no possible way fro a truck to service the myriad
of little tiny buildings, some of them only on walking paths - even in 
cities of 100K people, so there is a garbage station for every 20-30 houses or 
so, or one for a large apartment or company. Temporary ones are merely nets to 
keep the crows off
the bags, but most are permanent ones worth mapping.
 
  My local garbage station (2 cabinets) http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
  a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3
 
 
  although some are old and look disused, they are used daily or 
weekly by the populace, and mapping them would be useful on a very local level (like 
the cabinets in general).
 
  Please add a line item for waste transfer, similar to the postal 
transfer - this is a missing step in the garbage collection, and a cabinet that have 
been overlooked.
  Also, I suggest also adding sliding for the door hinge option (as 
the second one has no hinges)
 
  Javbw
 
  On Oct 31, 2014, at 6:08 AM, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
 
  François Lacombe wrote on 2014-10-30 21:42:
  I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've 
mentioned.
 
  maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
  amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
  generator:source=waste
 
  Garbage is less used in tags so far.
 
  A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
  A building is the opposite.
  Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those 
two sorts.
 
  That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.
 
  tom
 



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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-01 Thread johnw
Well, they re not open to the public - only the designated houses in the area 
can use their station, not anyone else. You don’t use other people’s stations. 
There is one closer to my house, but I’m not allowed to use it, because the one 
pictred is “ours”. it is regualrly maintained, on rotation, by the users of it. 

These are not public garbage cans, they are a drop-off point between specific 
customers and the garbage pickup. 

They are not completely private, like a mail transfer box, but they are not 
public either. 

Javbw

 On Oct 31, 2014, at 7:01 PM, Tom Pfeifer t.pfei...@computer.org wrote:
 
 I would distinguish between an amenity=waste_* for structures
 that are open for everybody to bring their waste, with or without fee,
 thus as a POI somebody would navigate to (where can I bring my waste),
 and the cabinet=waste merely describing the street inventory
 (what is that odd locked box for).
 
 johnw wrote on 2014-10-31 07:00:
 I was going to suggest Waste Transfer station 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
 But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I expected.
 
 In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is collected from 
 individual residences via bins/cans on the street with(enormous) trucks, so 
 there is no static transfer points whatsoever, it goes from curb to landfill 
 directly.
 
 In Japan, There are static waste collection Garbage stations [ゴミ ステーション] 
 per street or area, and are often large, steel, screened cages that are 
 stuffed full of 45 liter bags. There is no possible way fro a truck to 
 service the myriad of little tiny buildings, some of them only on walking 
 paths - even in cities of 100K people, so there is a garbage station for 
 every 20-30 houses or so, or one for a large apartment or company. Temporary 
 ones are merely nets to keep the crows off the bags, but most are permanent 
 ones worth mapping.
 
 My local garbage station (2 cabinets)  http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
 a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3
 
 
 although some are old and look disused, they are used daily or weekly by the 
 populace, and mapping them would be useful on a very local level (like the 
 cabinets in general).
 
 Please add a line item for waste transfer, similar to the postal transfer - 
 this is a missing step in the garbage collection, and a cabinet that have 
 been overlooked.
 Also, I suggest also adding sliding for the door hinge option (as the 
 second one has no hinges)
 
 Javbw
 
 On Oct 31, 2014, at 6:08 AM, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
 
 François Lacombe wrote on 2014-10-30 21:42:
 I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've mentioned.
 
 maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
 amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
 generator:source=waste
 
 Garbage is less used in tags so far.
 
 A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
 A building is the opposite.
 Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two sorts.
 
 That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.
 
 tom
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-01 Thread François Lacombe
Hi,

I've already edited Rational paragraph to give a better description with
distinction between buildings where workers can enter.

Secondly, ok for street_cabinet=waste (and maybe
street_cabinet=waste_management if cabinets are encountered with devices to
manage waste transit or storage)

man_made=street_cabinet isn't incompatible with amenity=waste_* and
street_cabinet=waste should concern anything regarding waste.

I'm not so friendly with proposal editing while voting.
Nevertheless, with such extensive keys like street_cabinet=* I think users
won't mind if we document additional values.
Is everybody ok with it ?

*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com

2014-11-01 11:04 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com:

 Well, they re not open to the public - only the designated houses in the
 area can use their station, not anyone else. You don’t use other people’s
 stations. There is one closer to my house, but I’m not allowed to use it,
 because the one pictred is “ours”. it is regualrly maintained, on rotation,
 by the users of it.

 These are not public garbage cans, they are a drop-off point between
 specific customers and the garbage pickup.

 They are not completely private, like a mail transfer box, but they are
 not public either.

 Javbw

  On Oct 31, 2014, at 7:01 PM, Tom Pfeifer t.pfei...@computer.org wrote:
 
  I would distinguish between an amenity=waste_* for structures
  that are open for everybody to bring their waste, with or without fee,
  thus as a POI somebody would navigate to (where can I bring my waste),
  and the cabinet=waste merely describing the street inventory
  (what is that odd locked box for).
 
  johnw wrote on 2014-10-31 07:00:
  I was going to suggest Waste Transfer station
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
  But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I expected.
 
  In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is collected from
 individual residences via bins/cans on the street with(enormous) trucks, so
 there is no static transfer points whatsoever, it goes from curb to
 landfill directly.
 
  In Japan, There are static waste collection Garbage stations [ゴミ
 ステーション] per street or area, and are often large, steel, screened cages that
 are stuffed full of 45 liter bags. There is no possible way fro a truck to
 service the myriad of little tiny buildings, some of them only on walking
 paths - even in cities of 100K people, so there is a garbage station for
 every 20-30 houses or so, or one for a large apartment or company.
 Temporary ones are merely nets to keep the crows off the bags, but most are
 permanent ones worth mapping.
 
  My local garbage station (2 cabinets)  http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
  a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3
 
 
  although some are old and look disused, they are used daily or weekly
 by the populace, and mapping them would be useful on a very local level
 (like the cabinets in general).
 
  Please add a line item for waste transfer, similar to the postal
 transfer - this is a missing step in the garbage collection, and a cabinet
 that have been overlooked.
  Also, I suggest also adding sliding for the door hinge option (as the
 second one has no hinges)
 
  Javbw
 
  On Oct 31, 2014, at 6:08 AM, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
 
  François Lacombe wrote on 2014-10-30 21:42:
  I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've
 mentioned.
 
  maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
  amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
  generator:source=waste
 
  Garbage is less used in tags so far.
 
  A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
  A building is the opposite.
  Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two
 sorts.
 
  That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.
 
  tom
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-11-01 Thread Marc Gemis
I wouldn't touch the page until the voting is over. One can always add new
values when the tag is in use and document them when needed. New building
types are also added all the time. No need to document it right away.

just my .5 cents

m

On Sat, Nov 1, 2014 at 11:05 PM, François Lacombe 
francois.laco...@telecom-bretagne.eu wrote:

 Hi,

 I've already edited Rational paragraph to give a better description with
 distinction between buildings where workers can enter.

 Secondly, ok for street_cabinet=waste (and maybe
 street_cabinet=waste_management if cabinets are encountered with devices to
 manage waste transit or storage)

 man_made=street_cabinet isn't incompatible with amenity=waste_* and
 street_cabinet=waste should concern anything regarding waste.

 I'm not so friendly with proposal editing while voting.
 Nevertheless, with such extensive keys like street_cabinet=* I think users
 won't mind if we document additional values.
 Is everybody ok with it ?

 *François Lacombe*

 francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
 http://www.infos-reseaux.com

 2014-11-01 11:04 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com:

 Well, they re not open to the public - only the designated houses in the
 area can use their station, not anyone else. You don’t use other people’s
 stations. There is one closer to my house, but I’m not allowed to use it,
 because the one pictred is “ours”. it is regualrly maintained, on rotation,
 by the users of it.

 These are not public garbage cans, they are a drop-off point between
 specific customers and the garbage pickup.

 They are not completely private, like a mail transfer box, but they are
 not public either.

 Javbw

  On Oct 31, 2014, at 7:01 PM, Tom Pfeifer t.pfei...@computer.org
 wrote:
 
  I would distinguish between an amenity=waste_* for structures
  that are open for everybody to bring their waste, with or without fee,
  thus as a POI somebody would navigate to (where can I bring my waste),
  and the cabinet=waste merely describing the street inventory
  (what is that odd locked box for).
 
  johnw wrote on 2014-10-31 07:00:
  I was going to suggest Waste Transfer station
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
  But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I expected.
 
  In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is collected from
 individual residences via bins/cans on the street with(enormous) trucks, so
 there is no static transfer points whatsoever, it goes from curb to
 landfill directly.
 
  In Japan, There are static waste collection Garbage stations [ゴミ
 ステーション] per street or area, and are often large, steel, screened cages that
 are stuffed full of 45 liter bags. There is no possible way fro a truck to
 service the myriad of little tiny buildings, some of them only on walking
 paths - even in cities of 100K people, so there is a garbage station for
 every 20-30 houses or so, or one for a large apartment or company.
 Temporary ones are merely nets to keep the crows off the bags, but most are
 permanent ones worth mapping.
 
  My local garbage station (2 cabinets)  http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
  a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3
 
 
  although some are old and look disused, they are used daily or weekly
 by the populace, and mapping them would be useful on a very local level
 (like the cabinets in general).
 
  Please add a line item for waste transfer, similar to the postal
 transfer - this is a missing step in the garbage collection, and a cabinet
 that have been overlooked.
  Also, I suggest also adding sliding for the door hinge option (as
 the second one has no hinges)
 
  Javbw
 
  On Oct 31, 2014, at 6:08 AM, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
 
  François Lacombe wrote on 2014-10-30 21:42:
  I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've
 mentioned.
 
  maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
  amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
  generator:source=waste
 
  Garbage is less used in tags so far.
 
  A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
  A building is the opposite.
  Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two
 sorts.
 
  That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.
 
  tom
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-10-31 Thread johnw
I was going to suggest Waste Transfer station 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I expected. 

In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is collected from individual 
residences via bins/cans on the street with(enormous) trucks, so there is no 
static transfer points whatsoever, it goes from curb to landfill directly. 

In Japan, There are static waste collection Garbage stations [ゴミ ステーション] per 
street or area, and are often large, steel, screened cages that are stuffed 
full of 45 liter bags. There is no possible way fro a truck to service the 
myriad of little tiny buildings, some of them only on walking paths - even in 
cities of 100K people, so there is a garbage station for every 20-30 houses or 
so, or one for a large apartment or company. Temporary ones are merely nets to 
keep the crows off the bags, but most are permanent ones worth mapping. 

My local garbage station (2 cabinets)  http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3


although some are old and look disused, they are used daily or weekly by the 
populace, and mapping them would be useful on a very local level (like the 
cabinets in general). 

Please add a line item for waste transfer, similar to the postal transfer - 
this is a missing step in the garbage collection, and a cabinet that have been 
overlooked. 
Also, I suggest also adding sliding for the door hinge option (as the second 
one has no hinges) 

Javbw

On Oct 31, 2014, at 6:08 AM, Tom Pfeifer t.pfei...@computer.org wrote:

 François Lacombe wrote on 2014-10-30 21:42:
 I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've mentioned.
 
 maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
 amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
 generator:source=waste
 
 Garbage is less used in tags so far.
 
 A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
 A building is the opposite.
  Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two sorts.
 
 That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.
 
 tom
 
 
 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-10-31 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-10-31 7:00 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com:

 I was going to suggest Waste Transfer station
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
 But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I expected.



The containers in your photos would IMHO qualify for street cabinet.

A waste transfer station I would expect to be some biggish plant where
trucks unload the waste, and where eventually recyclable ressources like
metal are removed before it goes to the landfill / waste incinerating plant.

something like this:
https://www.stadt-werther.de/typo3temp/pics/84cad4e180.jpg
http://in1.bilderbuch-koeln.de/bilder/k%C3%B6ln_ehrenfeld_entleeren_eines_m%C3%BCllwagens_awb_m%C3%BCllwagen_29fa427248_600x450xcr.jpeg

this is (or was) a plant from the 80ies for sorting waste into different
fractions of reusable material, it started as a pilot project but is unused
for more than 20 years now because the federal government was pursuing a
different strategy how to deal with waste then (they let citizens sort the
waste beforehand and collect it already seperated rather than collecting a
mixture and do the sorting in the plant):
http://www.tagblatt.de/cms_media/module_bi/279/139768_0_org_640_434_18012_.jpg

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-10-31 Thread Tom Pfeifer

I would distinguish between an amenity=waste_* for structures
that are open for everybody to bring their waste, with or without fee,
thus as a POI somebody would navigate to (where can I bring my waste),
and the cabinet=waste merely describing the street inventory
(what is that odd locked box for).

johnw wrote on 2014-10-31 07:00:

I was going to suggest Waste Transfer station 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dwaste_transfer_station
But after reading the wiki for it, it was not at all what I expected.

In America, at least in most suburban areas, waste is collected from individual 
residences via bins/cans on the street with(enormous) trucks, so there is no 
static transfer points whatsoever, it goes from curb to landfill directly.

In Japan, There are static waste collection Garbage stations [ゴミ ステーション] per 
street or area, and are often large, steel, screened cages that are stuffed full of 45 
liter bags. There is no possible way fro a truck to service the myriad of little tiny 
buildings, some of them only on walking paths - even in cities of 100K people, so there 
is a garbage station for every 20-30 houses or so, or one for a large apartment or 
company. Temporary ones are merely nets to keep the crows off the bags, but most are 
permanent ones worth mapping.

My local garbage station (2 cabinets)  http://goo.gl/maps/VLgMP
a full one nearby http://goo.gl/maps/eqVS3


although some are old and look disused, they are used daily or weekly by the 
populace, and mapping them would be useful on a very local level (like the 
cabinets in general).

Please add a line item for waste transfer, similar to the postal transfer - 
this is a missing step in the garbage collection, and a cabinet that have been 
overlooked.
Also, I suggest also adding sliding for the door hinge option (as the second 
one has no hinges)

Javbw

On Oct 31, 2014, at 6:08 AM, Tom Pfeifer wrote:


François Lacombe wrote on 2014-10-30 21:42:

I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've mentioned.


maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
generator:source=waste

Garbage is less used in tags so far.


A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
A building is the opposite.
Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two sorts.


That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.

tom



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[Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-10-30 Thread François Lacombe
Hi,

I'm pleased to announce the start of voting process for the Street Cabinet
proposal
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet

It's been a while this proposal hasn't been commented and tagging scheme
sounds consistent.
These features are useful on map for accessibility and infrastructure
knowledge.

Don't hesitate to give your feedback at the bottom of the page.


Many thanks in advance,
all the best.


*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com
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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-10-30 Thread Art Penteur
A minimal remark :

Given that british english spelling is usually prerferred for tags, the
colour description tag should be colour rather than color.

Art.
Le 30 oct. 2014 14:28, François Lacombe 
francois.laco...@telecom-bretagne.eu a écrit :

 Hi,

 I'm pleased to announce the start of voting process for the Street Cabinet
 proposal
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet

 It's been a while this proposal hasn't been commented and tagging scheme
 sounds consistent.
 These features are useful on map for accessibility and infrastructure
 knowledge.

 Don't hesitate to give your feedback at the bottom of the page.


 Many thanks in advance,
 all the best.


 *François Lacombe*

 francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
 http://www.infos-reseaux.com

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-10-30 Thread François Lacombe
You're definetly right, thank you.

Furthermore, colour is widely used
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/colour

I don't know why I didn't realize this before.

Proposal and example are up to date.

*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com

2014-10-30 15:48 GMT+01:00 Art Penteur art.pent...@gmail.com:

 A minimal remark :

 Given that british english spelling is usually prerferred for tags, the
 colour description tag should be colour rather than color.

 Art.
 Le 30 oct. 2014 14:28, François Lacombe 
 francois.laco...@telecom-bretagne.eu a écrit :

 Hi,

 I'm pleased to announce the start of voting process for the Street
 Cabinet proposal
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet

 It's been a while this proposal hasn't been commented and tagging scheme
 sounds consistent.
 These features are useful on map for accessibility and infrastructure
 knowledge.

 Don't hesitate to give your feedback at the bottom of the page.


 Many thanks in advance,
 all the best.


 *François Lacombe*

 francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
 http://www.infos-reseaux.com

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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-10-30 Thread Tom Pfeifer

Hi,
I like the proposal, and the picture is very sympathetic.

I would suggest to consider garbage collection cabinets as well,
https://www.google.com/search?q=müllschranktbm=isch
which are found in some towns to collect waste individually per house
and are often lockable (as opposed to public recycling containers).

Also it would be good to have guidelines at what size the structure
is considered a cabinet, and where building starts. For example
power substations could come in any possible size.

tom

François Lacombe wrote on 2014-10-30 14:25:

Hi,

I'm pleased to announce the start of voting process for the Street Cabinet 
proposal
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet

It's been a while this proposal hasn't been commented and tagging scheme sounds 
consistent.
These features are useful on map for accessibility and infrastructure knowledge.

Don't hesitate to give your feedback at the bottom of the page.


Many thanks in advance,
all the best.


*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com



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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-10-30 Thread François Lacombe
I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've mentioned.

A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
A building is the opposite.

Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two sorts.

*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com

2014-10-30 17:37 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer t.pfei...@computer.org:

 Hi,
 I like the proposal, and the picture is very sympathetic.

 I would suggest to consider garbage collection cabinets as well,
 https://www.google.com/search?q=müllschranktbm=isch
 which are found in some towns to collect waste individually per house
 and are often lockable (as opposed to public recycling containers).

 Also it would be good to have guidelines at what size the structure
 is considered a cabinet, and where building starts. For example
 power substations could come in any possible size.

 tom

 François Lacombe wrote on 2014-10-30 14:25:

 Hi,

 I'm pleased to announce the start of voting process for the Street
 Cabinet proposal
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_cabinet

 It's been a while this proposal hasn't been commented and tagging scheme
 sounds consistent.
 These features are useful on map for accessibility and infrastructure
 knowledge.

 Don't hesitate to give your feedback at the bottom of the page.


 Many thanks in advance,
 all the best.


 *François Lacombe*

 francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
 http://www.infos-reseaux.com



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Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - Street cabinet - Voting

2014-10-30 Thread Tom Pfeifer

François Lacombe wrote on 2014-10-30 21:42:

I would suggest street_cabinet=garbage for the equipment you've mentioned.


maybe =waste is more consistent with existing tags such as
amenity=waste disposal, amenity=waste basket or
generator:source=waste

Garbage is less used in tags so far.


A cabinet is a feature where workers can't enter.
A building is the opposite.

 Then, substations and other stuff can be divided between those two sorts.

That's a very plausible distinction and should be documented.

tom



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