Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
It shouldn't be too hard to make a JOSM add-on that converts 3 letters into 2. So that's no problem. How about those time domains? Could we use them to map temporary closed roads? Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: It shouldn't be too hard to make a JOSM add-on that converts 3 letters into 2. So that's no problem. You seem to be not seeing the point. Two letter days of the week (DOW) may be standard in German, and that's fine. But the tags we use in OSM are in English. They aren't in an abstracted system which we then render- we use English and then codify from there. It's what many software projects do, and it's what we do. So then we must ask What is the standard way of representing a day of the week in English?. The way is to look at a standard, such as the locale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locale) So if you look at your locale from a *nix system- you will see the abday, and you will see unicode encoded strings that show the day of the week. Since that is a pain to look at, we can use Python to help us: import time time.strftime(%a) 'Wed' If you aren't familiar with Python (or the C it borrows from), strftime prints out the time, and I've given it the parameter to display the shortened day of the week, according the locale (in my case, en_US). I'm not about to say that whether we use three letters or two is the end of the world, but I will say that we should strive to use things that are standard- things that are defined elsewhere. Doing so will make it easier for folks to use the software, but also easier for programmers to have something they expect. - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
I don't think three letters is quite as universal as you think. It's also really common in English to use M,T,W,T,F,S,S (in context) or M,Tu,W,Th,F,Sa,Su or variations. Since we have a defacto OSM standard with two letters (the opening_hours key has over 100K uses), and it's unambiguous, this seems like a case of if it ain't broke, don't fix it On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: It shouldn't be too hard to make a JOSM add-on that converts 3 letters into 2. So that's no problem. You seem to be not seeing the point. Two letter days of the week (DOW) may be standard in German, and that's fine. But the tags we use in OSM are in English. They aren't in an abstracted system which we then render- we use English and then codify from there. It's what many software projects do, and it's what we do. So then we must ask What is the standard way of representing a day of the week in English?. The way is to look at a standard, such as the locale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locale) So if you look at your locale from a *nix system- you will see the abday, and you will see unicode encoded strings that show the day of the week. Since that is a pain to look at, we can use Python to help us: import time time.strftime(%a) 'Wed' If you aren't familiar with Python (or the C it borrows from), strftime prints out the time, and I've given it the parameter to display the shortened day of the week, according the locale (in my case, en_US). I'm not about to say that whether we use three letters or two is the end of the world, but I will say that we should strive to use things that are standard- things that are defined elsewhere. Doing so will make it easier for folks to use the software, but also easier for programmers to have something they expect. - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
2013/1/23 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 4:32 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: It shouldn't be too hard to make a JOSM add-on that converts 3 letters into 2. So that's no problem. You seem to be not seeing the point. Two letter days of the week (DOW) may be standard in German, and that's fine. But the tags we use in OSM are in English. They aren't in an abstracted system which we then render- we use English and then codify from there. It's what many software projects do, and it's what we do. So then we must ask What is the standard way of representing a day of the week in English?. The way is to look at a standard, such as the locale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locale) So if you look at your locale from a *nix system- you will see the abday, and you will see unicode encoded strings that show the day of the week. Since that is a pain to look at, we can use Python to help us: import time time.strftime(%a) 'Wed' If you aren't familiar with Python (or the C it borrows from), strftime prints out the time, and I've given it the parameter to display the shortened day of the week, according the locale (in my case, en_US). Agreed, that's what C and Python do. On the other hand, there are many examples of two-letters encoding in real life. In Italian it's common to see Lu, Ma, Me, Gi, Ve, Sa, Do, even though it is more widely used the three-letters variant Lun, Mar, Mer, Gio, Ven, Sab, Dom. But you won't take that as a good reason - you refer to English. I used to have a VCR, like twenty years ago, whose UI (all of the five 7-segment LCD characters) was in English. The lights that indicated DOW read Mo, Tu, We, Th, Fr, Sa, Su. I'm not about to say that whether we use three letters or two is the end of the world, but I will say that we should strive to use things that are standard- things that are defined elsewhere. Doing so will make it easier for folks to use the software, but also easier for programmers to have something they expect. I see with your point, and I agree that this is not the most important decision to take. But the two-letters encoding is unambiguous and easy enough to implement (encoding/decoding is just a map of key/values), just like the three-letters version. None of them has a clear advantage, except that opening_hours already uses the two-letters version. Regards, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 06:36:57 Serge Wroclawski wrote: there have been some minor additions resulting in an updated spec. The one comment I have is that I'm not at all used to seeing two letter days of the week. I've always seen them as Mon, Tue, Wed, Thur, Fri, Sat, Sun. This is obviously cultural, but we want these to be as natural as possible. Surely this is 'internal'. That is, it's nice that some people can read Mo, Tu, We, etc., but for others, they are just 'coded' days of the week. Date producers need to understand the meaning of Mo, Tu, etc. so that they can record them properly in the database, but data consumers need to translate these to something that can be displayed nicely. For example, you may like to see Mon, Tue, Wed, etc., so for your renderer there should be a mapping table Mo-Mon Tu-Tue and so on. For a Korean renderer there should be a table Mo-월 Tu-화 We-수, etc. I think the *definition* for recording the opening times in the database should specify two-letter English abbreviations for days (and three-letter English abbreviations for months) and leave it to localised software to translate them appropriately. Best wishes, Andrew ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 5:32 AM, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: Surely this is 'internal'. That is, it's nice that some people can read Mo, Tu, We, etc., but for others, they are just 'coded' days of the week. Date producers need to understand the meaning of Mo, Tu, etc. so that they can record them properly in the database, but data consumers need to translate these to something that can be displayed nicely. Except why use abbreviations that no one uses elsewhere? I've never seen two letter abbreviations for days of the week outside OSM, in any computer system. So why use a codification that no one else uses, to save a byte? - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
2013/1/22 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com: On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 5:32 AM, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: Surely this is 'internal'. That is, it's nice that some people can read Mo, Tu, We, etc., but for others, they are just 'coded' days of the week. Date producers need to understand the meaning of Mo, Tu, etc. so that they can record them properly in the database, but data consumers need to translate these to something that can be displayed nicely. Except why use abbreviations that no one uses elsewhere? Ehm. I'm using it. And not only in OSM. And I doubt I'm the only one. I've never seen two letter abbreviations for days of the week outside OSM, in any computer system. Just look into my calendar: two-character abbreviations. So why use a codification that no one else uses, to save a byte? Because it is used? Even pretty often - at least in my perception. regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
On 1/22/13 6:57 AM, Martin Vonwald wrote: 2013/1/22 Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com: So why use a codification that no one else uses, to save a byte? Because it is used? Even pretty often - at least in my perception. i use it when i encode times for OSM because it's the documented method in the wiki right now. i'm sure a lot of folks have done the same. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
2013/1/22 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de: Am 22.01.2013 12:51, schrieb Serge Wroclawski: Except why use abbreviations that no one uses elsewhere? I've never seen two letter abbreviations for days of the week outside OSM, in any computer system. So why use a codification that no one else uses, to save a byte? Probably that's once more a German problem, as in German days of the week are usually abbreviated to two letters. (Mo, Di, Mi, Do, Fr, Sa, So). I'm not sure if I ever saw that (Mo, Tu, We, Th, Fr, Sa, Su) in English, while I'm sure I saw the three-letter variant (Mon, Tue, Wed, Thu, Fri, Sat, Sun). +1 I'd guess so as well, but hey, what's the problem? With 2 letters we will save a lot of space while remaining unambigous ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
Hi Serge, Am Dienstag, 22. Januar 2013, 06:51:29 schrieb Serge Wroclawski: Except why use abbreviations that no one uses elsewhere? I've never seen two letter abbreviations for days of the week outside OSM, in any computer system. So why use a codification that no one else uses, to save a byte? nobody else? Windows Vista: http://www.askdavetaylor.com/1-blog-pics/vista-date-time-pop-up.png Windows 7: http://www.homeandlearn.co.uk/bc/win7/taskbar/changeDateTime.gif Windows 8: http://www.liberiangeek.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/date_time_windows8_2_thumb.png Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Eckhart Wörner ewoer...@kde.org wrote: nobody else? Windows Vista: http://www.askdavetaylor.com/1-blog-pics/vista-date-time-pop-up.png Windows 7: http://www.homeandlearn.co.uk/bc/win7/taskbar/changeDateTime.gif Windows 8: http://www.liberiangeek.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/date_time_windows8_2_thumb.png Calendars are different than written. In calendars, one does things they don't do elsewhere. Many physical calendars use a single letter, but in computer systems, two letters are common because it makes it easier to come up with a column display of the dates (ie 01-31). That's quite different than written. - Serge ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
Hi everybody, Am Sonntag, 20. Januar 2013, 15:16:14 schrieb Eckhart Wörner: The latest version of the proposal is here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Time_domains there have been some minor additions resulting in an updated spec. Here is the list of opening_hours values and their validity in the time domain spec: http://eckhart-woerner.de/~eckhart/time/time-static.html (652 KB) If you feel anything important is missing, please mention it on the list or in the wiki. Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
On 1/21/13 4:36 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: there have been some minor additions resulting in an updated spec. The one comment I have is that I'm not at all used to seeing two letter days of the week. I've always seen them as Mon, Tue, Wed, Thur, Fri, Sat, Sun. This is obviously cultural, but we want these to be as natural as possible. the two letter convention, though is what is embedded in existing opening_hours tags in the system. it may not, though, be too hard to set up the spec to allow both 2 and 3 letter days of the week. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
Hi everybody, last year, I started an RFC to properly define time domains. Unfortunately, due to lack of time I wasn't able to follow-up on this. I would like to revive the discussion. The latest version of the proposal is here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Time_domains In the meantime, I had a look at the compatibility of existing opening_hours values wrt the time domains proposal: http://eckhart-woerner.de/~eckhart/time/time.html Green color: value is allowed by the time domain specification Red color: value is not allowed by the time domain specification Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
On 1/20/13 9:16 AM, Eckhart Wörner wrote: Hi everybody, last year, I started an RFC to properly define time domains. Unfortunately, due to lack of time I wasn't able to follow-up on this. I would like to revive the discussion. The latest version of the proposal is here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Time_domains In the meantime, I had a look at the compatibility of existing opening_hours values wrt the time domains proposal: http://eckhart-woerner.de/~eckhart/time/time.html Green color: value is allowed by the time domain specification Red color: value is not allowed by the time domain specification Generating results, this may take some time... how long does this normally take? richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
Hi Serge, Am Sonntag, 20. Januar 2013, 10:00:11 schrieb Serge Wroclawski: The Microformats community seems to be going through a similar process: http://microformats.org/wiki/opening-hours The funny part is that they use our current spec as an example of opening hours done right. I fail to see where your done right comes from. The OSM format is mentioned on the brainstorming page, that's all. Maybe you can go into more detail about where you think the current format is lacking, and why you think it needs this major overhaul. The problem, as I have explained in the original RFC, is that the opening_hours page is *not* a specification. It is a collection of random examples that even contradict each other. The result is that the number of implementations is quite low and that those implementations conflict. Here are the goals of the RFC mail: - has to be implementable - reuses opening_hours syntax as much as reasonable - is properly defined - is reasonably complete - is reasonably extensible And then you can perhaps go into an implementation or two of the new spec (as well as possibly a path for transition)? There is no path for transition. An implementation of the current version of the time domain spec is not that difficult (basically just evaluating from left to right). Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Follow-up on Time Domains
Hi Richard, Am Sonntag, 20. Januar 2013, 09:46:37 schrieb Richard Welty: Generating results, this may take some time... how long does this normally take? it downloads some data, then processes it using JavaScript. Here is a static version: http://eckhart-woerner.de/~eckhart/time/time-static.html Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
