Re: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

[Colin Smale]

shoulder:motor_vehicle=* feels better. But you are not allowed to walk
on the shoulder anyway, so actually something like
shoulder:access=breakdown would be a better start. 

--colin 

On 2016-01-30 12:31, Warin wrote:

> On 30/01/2016 9:54 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: 
> 
>> motor_vehicle:shoulder=* ??
> 
> motor vehicles around here don't have shoulders. At least not that I have 
> noticed. 
> No, the shoulders that are being considered are attached to highways... 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Andy Mabbett  
> wrote:
> On 29 January 2016 at 13:14, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks to everyone who contributed.
>> 
>> I've accordingly formalised the page and moved it to
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder .
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> What about the case (such as "managed motorways", in the UK) where a
> shoulder is reserved for emergency use, except in certain periods,
> where it may be used by normal traffic?
 access tags?


There is also the mention of 
shoulder:psv=yes .. what is the difference to a psv lane?

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Re: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

[Warin]

On 30/01/2016 9:54 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:

motor_vehicle:shoulder=* ??


motor vehicles around here don't have shoulders. At least not that I 
have noticed.

No, the shoulders that are being considered are attached to highways...


On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Andy Mabbett 
> wrote:


On 29 January 2016 at 13:14, Richard Fairhurst
> wrote:
>
> Thanks to everyone who contributed.
>
> I've accordingly formalised the page and moved it to
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder .

Thanks.

What about the case (such as "managed motorways", in the UK) where a
shoulder is reserved for emergency use, except in certain periods,
where it may be used by normal traffic?


access tags?


There is also the mention of
shoulder:psv=yes .. what is the difference to a psv lane?

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Re: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

[Andy Mabbett]

On 30 January 2016 at 13:11, Colin Smale  wrote:

> shoulder:motor_vehicle=* feels better. But you are not allowed to walk on
> the shoulder anyway, so actually something like shoulder:access=breakdown
> would be a better start.

My question was about shoulders which are for emergency use only;
except during (variable) peak periods, when any vehicle may use them
for regular driving.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

[Paul Johnson]

motor_vehicle:shoulder=* ??

On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

> On 29 January 2016 at 13:14, Richard Fairhurst 
> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks to everyone who contributed.
> >
> > I've accordingly formalised the page and moved it to
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder .
>
> Thanks.
>
> What about the case (such as "managed motorways", in the UK) where a
> shoulder is reserved for emergency use, except in certain periods,
> where it may be used by normal traffic?
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

[Andy Mabbett]

On 29 January 2016 at 13:14, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
>
> Thanks to everyone who contributed.
>
> I've accordingly formalised the page and moved it to
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder .

Thanks.

What about the case (such as "managed motorways", in the UK) where a
shoulder is reserved for emergency use, except in certain periods,
where it may be used by normal traffic?

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

[Richard Fairhurst]

dieterdreist wrote:
> yes, Standstreifen, Standspur, Seitenstreifen, Randstreifen. I've 
> improved the proposal to make this clearer for non-native people 
> (added a definition (from WP), added more German synonyms, 
> images)

Thanks to everyone who contributed.

I've accordingly formalised the page and moved it to
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shoulder .

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

[Gerd Petermann]

Thanks, that helps a lot:-)




Von: Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Januar 2016 11:22
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging


2016-01-26 10:59 GMT+01:00 Gerd Petermann 
<gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com<mailto:gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com>>:
Dou you think that shoulder means what we call "Seitenstreifen" ?


yes, Standstreifen, Standspur, Seitenstreifen, Randstreifen. I've improved the 
proposal to make this clearer for non-native people (added a definition (from 
WP), added more German synonyms, images)
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Re: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

[Gerd Petermann]

Hi,

As a German I am not sure if I understand what shoulder means.
In Germany we have a traffic_sign "Seitenstreifen nicht befahrbar"
and one with a pictogram:
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wolkdirekt.com%2Fimages%2F600%2F536052%2Fverkehrsschild-nach-stvo-typ-1-nr-388-seitenstreifen-f-mehrspurige-fahrzeuge-nicht-befahrbar.jpg=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wolkdirekt.com%2Fverkehrsschilder.html=600=600=_olMoMJf-q2L2M%3A=DQxsHaya53Mr-M=10KnVt7BLsW6UaeYrIgL=isch=rc=3=385=1=0=49=0ahUKEwieicOdm8fKAhVFXRQKHScMC7EQrQMIHjAA

Dou you think that shoulder means what we call "Seitenstreifen" ?
Gerd


Von: Richard Fairhurst <rich...@systemed.net>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Januar 2016 10:23
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

Hi all,

At present there is no documented standard for tagging highway shoulders.

We have http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shoulder with
shoulder=yes|no, which has been in 'draft (under way)' since 2010. In
Australia, cycleway=shoulder appears also to be used.

Taginfo stats are:
shoulder = *7120, of which:
shoulder = no   3230
shoulder = yes  2743
shoulder = right964
shoulder:width = *  1794
shoulder:right = *  1047
width:shoulder = *  843
cycleway = shoulder 502

There are several gazillion miles (approximate value) of roads with
shoulders around the world. We should have a way to tag them.

I'd therefore suggest simply formalising the most popular existing usage
and the one on the wiki page - that is, shoulder=yes|no. As a default,
I'd suggest shoulder=yes is presumed as the most common real-world
situation, i.e.:

"A paved shoulder, wide enough to be used as an emergency
 refuge for cars, and for through passage by bicycles."

(Narrow shoulders can of course be tagged with shoulder:width, gravel
ones by shoulder:surface, and so on.)

There are of course many refinements one could imagine, for peak-hour
shoulder running, buses, etc. But since "the perfect is the enemy of the
good" etc., I'd like to get the basic shoulder=yes|no agreed first.

Speak now or forever hold your peace!

cheers
Richard

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Re: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

[Warin]

On 26/01/2016 8:59 PM, Gerd Petermann wrote:

Hi,

As a German I am not sure if I understand what shoulder means.
In Germany we have a traffic_sign "Seitenstreifen nicht befahrbar"
and one with a pictogram:
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wolkdirekt.com%2Fimages%2F600%2F536052%2Fverkehrsschild-nach-stvo-typ-1-nr-388-seitenstreifen-f-mehrspurige-fahrzeuge-nicht-befahrbar.jpg=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wolkdirekt.com%2Fverkehrsschilder.html=600=600=_olMoMJf-q2L2M%3A=DQxsHaya53Mr-M=10KnVt7BLsW6UaeYrIgL=isch=rc=3=385=1=0=49=0ahUKEwieicOdm8fKAhVFXRQKHScMC7EQrQMIHjAA

Dou you think that shoulder means what we call "Seitenstreifen" ?

auto translation of 'Seitenstreifen' = 'hard shoulder'

So .. yes .. but 'shoulder' would also include 'soft' as well as 'hard'. 
So, for example, grass can be included.
There would be no sharp  'gutter' between the road and shoulder .. a 
spoon drain (a shallow trench with smooth side) would be allowed - the 
movement of a vehicle from the road to the shoulder should be easy and 
safe.



Gerd


Von: Richard Fairhurst <rich...@systemed.net>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 26. Januar 2016 10:23
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

Hi all,

At present there is no documented standard for tagging highway shoulders.

We have http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shoulder with
shoulder=yes|no, which has been in 'draft (under way)' since 2010. In
Australia, cycleway=shoulder appears also to be used.

Taginfo stats are:
 shoulder = *7120, of which:
 shoulder = no   3230
 shoulder = yes  2743
 shoulder = right964
 shoulder:width = *  1794
 shoulder:right = *  1047
 width:shoulder = *  843
 cycleway = shoulder 502

There are several gazillion miles (approximate value) of roads with
shoulders around the world. We should have a way to tag them.

I'd therefore suggest simply formalising the most popular existing usage
and the one on the wiki page - that is, shoulder=yes|no. As a default,
I'd suggest shoulder=yes is presumed as the most common real-world
situation, i.e.:

 "A paved shoulder, wide enough to be used as an emergency
  refuge for cars, and for through passage by bicycles."

(Narrow shoulders can of course be tagged with shoulder:width, gravel
ones by shoulder:surface, and so on.)

There are of course many refinements one could imagine, for peak-hour
shoulder running, buses, etc. But since "the perfect is the enemy of the
good" etc., I'd like to get the basic shoulder=yes|no agreed first.

Speak now or forever hold your peace!

cheers
Richard

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Re: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

[Andy Mabbett]

On 26 January 2016 at 10:15, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 3:59 AM, Gerd Petermann
>  wrote:
>>
>> Seitenstreifen
>
> Yes, that would be what we're referring to, if Google Translate is to be
> believed.

If only there was a free online encyclopedia...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoulder_%28road%29

   https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stra%C3%9Fenquerschnitt#Seitenstreifen

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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[Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

[Richard Fairhurst]

Hi all,

At present there is no documented standard for tagging highway shoulders.

We have http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shoulder with 
shoulder=yes|no, which has been in 'draft (under way)' since 2010. In 
Australia, cycleway=shoulder appears also to be used.


Taginfo stats are:
shoulder = *7120, of which:
shoulder = no   3230
shoulder = yes  2743
shoulder = right964
shoulder:width = *  1794
shoulder:right = *  1047
width:shoulder = *  843
cycleway = shoulder 502

There are several gazillion miles (approximate value) of roads with 
shoulders around the world. We should have a way to tag them.


I'd therefore suggest simply formalising the most popular existing usage 
and the one on the wiki page - that is, shoulder=yes|no. As a default, 
I'd suggest shoulder=yes is presumed as the most common real-world 
situation, i.e.:


"A paved shoulder, wide enough to be used as an emergency
 refuge for cars, and for through passage by bicycles."

(Narrow shoulders can of course be tagged with shoulder:width, gravel 
ones by shoulder:surface, and so on.)


There are of course many refinements one could imagine, for peak-hour 
shoulder running, buses, etc. But since "the perfect is the enemy of the 
good" etc., I'd like to get the basic shoulder=yes|no agreed first.


Speak now or forever hold your peace!

cheers
Richard

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Re: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-01-26 10:59 GMT+01:00 Gerd Petermann :

> Dou you think that shoulder means what we call "Seitenstreifen" ?



yes, Standstreifen, Standspur, Seitenstreifen, Randstreifen. I've improved
the proposal to make this clearer for non-native people (added a definition
(from WP), added more German synonyms, images)
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Re: [Tagging] Formalising shoulder tagging

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 3:59 AM, Gerd Petermann <
gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Seitenstreifen


Yes, that would be what we're referring to, if Google Translate is to be
believed.

http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/84rYvy_hxh95K8ipF1NfVw/photo has an example
of an expressway with both a left and right shoulder.  The left shoulder is
left of the orange/yellow line to the Type K rail in the central
reservation, and the right shoulder runs from the solid white line right to
the Type T31 rail protecting the bridge pier abutting the outer edge of the
roadway.
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