Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17. Oct 2018, at 15:22, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> Is WIkipedia definition
> 
> "A delicatessen or deli is a retail establishment that sells a selection of 
> unusual or 
> foreign prepared foods"
> 
> correct?
> 
> Because in that case this shop would be exact opposite. Pierogi are one of 
> the most
> traditional meal and are quite popular.


from the Italian situation I would not see this definition fit. Most deli shops 
around here (by quality, selection and price) sell Italian food. e.g. [1]
An interesting edge case is Eataly, which is kind of a deli supermarket with 
restaurants between the shelves. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=eataly
(ignoring the restaurants inside with the same name).

Cheers, Martin 




[1] was first added as supermarket 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4370085890/history
https://www.volpetti.com/en/
admittedly they also refer to international cuisine on their website but if you 
enter the shop you’ll not notice these at first.___
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[bkil]

When in doubt, OSM prefers UK terminology. Also, I suggest using
non-ambiguous notation whenever possible, so please share if you know
another widespread word in place of 'deli'.
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 5:44 PM Andy Mabbett  wrote:
>
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 at 14:22, Mateusz Konieczny  
> wrote:
> >
> > Is WIkipedia definition
> >
> > "A delicatessen or deli is a retail establishment that sells a selection of 
> > unusual or
> > foreign prepared foods"
> >
> > correct?
>
> No. I've changed it to "fine, unusual or foreign prepared foods".
>
> But note also that the same page says "'Deli' also denotes a small
> convenience store or milk bar in [Australia]" and "In the United
> States, a delicatessen (or deli) is often a combined grocery store and
> restaurant".
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Andy Mabbett]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 at 14:22, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
> Is WIkipedia definition
>
> "A delicatessen or deli is a retail establishment that sells a selection of 
> unusual or
> foreign prepared foods"
>
> correct?

No. I've changed it to "fine, unusual or foreign prepared foods".

But note also that the same page says "'Deli' also denotes a small
convenience store or milk bar in [Australia]" and "In the United
States, a delicatessen (or deli) is often a combined grocery store and
restaurant".

-- 
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@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Andy Townsend]

On 17/10/2018 14:22, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

Is WIkipedia definition

"A *delicatessen* or *deli* is a retail establishment 
 that sells a selection of 
unusual or

foreign prepared foods"

correct?



"foreign" - not in English, no, and none of the regional definitions on 
that wikipedia page suggest that either.


"unusual" - maybe, if the usual way you obtain cooked meat is to open a tin.

Cheers,

Andy





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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Is WIkipedia definition
"A delicatessen or deli is a retail establishment 
 that sells a selection of unusual or 
foreign prepared foods"
 
correct?
Because in that case this shop would be exact opposite. Pierogi are one of the 
mosttraditional meal and are quite popular.
8. Oct 2018 20:17 by bkil.hu...@gmail.com :


> How do you like this one?
> shop=deli + cuisine=pierogi
>
> On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 2:11 PM Mateusz Konieczny
> <> matkoni...@tutanota.com > > wrote:
>>
>> 7. Oct 2018 04:33 by >> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com 
>> >> :
>>
>> So this tag isn't very specific yet
>>
>>
>> I used it because it was not specific for >> 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3033173319 
>> 
>>
>>
>> It is selling only one type of food (pierogi) that are relatively easy to 
>> prepare but are
>>
>> not edible immediately after buying (so it is not takeaway fast food).
>>
>>
>> I guess that in many cases people  were unaware about alternatives or there 
>> was no suitable tag
>>
>> so they decided to use shop=food as generic one.
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[bkil]

When in doubt, there's always description=* (along with strapline=*)
intended for users and fixme=* or note=* for editors. A determined
individual could reclassify POI later on without traveling the whole
country if a reputable editor leaves enough information.

Just wanted to mention that around here, there exist many shops that
specialize by country or cuisine, not necessarily by one or two
defining foodstuff (of course there are exceptions, like for spice,
chocolate, etc.). As any given taxonomy will certainly fail in a
number of other countries, it sounds reasonable to stay flexible where
possible.
On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 9:40 AM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
> Am Do., 11. Okt. 2018 um 21:21 Uhr schrieb Mark Wagner 
> :
>>
>>  There are no "more knowledgeable mappers" in my area.  I
>> am the only person in an area the size of the United Kingdom to make a
>> concentrated effort at mapping business: if I don't map it, it won't
>> get mapped for years, if ever.
>
>
>
>
> hopefully you will be joined by other mappers, because it is crystal clear 
> one person won't be able to map a territory the size of the UK ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 11. Okt. 2018 um 21:21 Uhr schrieb Mark Wagner <
mark+...@carnildo.com>:

>  There are no "more knowledgeable mappers" in my area.  I
> am the only person in an area the size of the United Kingdom to make a
> concentrated effort at mapping business: if I don't map it, it won't
> get mapped for years, if ever.




hopefully you will be joined by other mappers, because it is crystal clear
one person won't be able to map a territory the size of the UK ;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[John Willis]

> On Oct 12, 2018, at 4:20 AM, Mark Wagner  wrote:
> 
> There are no "more knowledgeable mappers" in my area.

Do what you gotta do - but it shouldn't be the method that is reccommended.

Thanks for mapping such remote places, BTW. 

Javbw. 

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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[John Willis]

> On Oct 11, 2018, at 5:29 PM, Mark Wagner  wrote:
> 
> Empire Foods",

The name doesn't help much either. 

A convenience store? 

Food production? (Not a shop) 

Food distribution? (Not a shop) 

Is it a greengrocer?

A butcher?

A supplier of Prepackaged foods sold B2B for convenience stores or fast food 
restaurants (not a shop)? 

The office building for the chain of shops? 

I see this issue in Google maps all the time, where a distribution warehouse is 
labeled as a "supermarket" because it has the chain's name in the POI data. 
They were mapping by name and got it wrong. 

If it was "Weird Al's world of ketchup", then I could see having trouble 
categorizing it, but  tagging a business shop=food is missing the chance to put 

shop=yes 
and 
fixme=please update tagging to correct shop type

 on the shop for a more knowledgeable mapper to update. 

We should have a couple more categories of market-type shops (as discussed) 
before lumping all of them into shop=food. 

By tagging shop=food when you do not know how to tag it is wrong. It is a 
missed opportunity not only for the tagged business (it will probably never be 
revisited and properly tagged), but causes tagging confusion when people go to 
tag similar businesses.  

There may be a use for shop=food - but throwing a business in there because it 
has "foods" in the title is bad tagging (imo). 

Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Mark Wagner]

No.  Sometimes, all I know about a store is what it says on the sign
out front.  If the store calls itself "Empire Foods", it's a good bet
it sells food.

-- 
Mark

On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 13:04:39 +0900
Joseph Eisenberg  wrote:

> Highway=road and building=yes are used when adding features based on
> satellite imagery.
> 
> If you know that a shop sells “food”, you can also say if it sells
> fresh food or nonperishables or prepared food, no?
> 
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 12:42 PM Daniel Koć  wrote:
> 
> > W dniu 11.10.2018 o 05:08, John Willis pisze:  
> > > the definition of shop=food is way way way to vague to have
> > > meaning. it needs to be much narrower.
> > >
> > > it is like shop=goods. we don’t need that either.  
> >
> > It's much more precise than shop=yes (which is used a lot) and I
> > know what food is, even if I don't know shop type details.
> >
> > We also use building=yes and highway=road and we need them. They are
> > very useful to not cheat that a mapper knows more than she really
> > does. It's always better to have more precise data, but declining
> > more general categories is not a way to achieve this, it's just
> > sweeping problem under the rug.
> >
> > --
> > "Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[John Willis]

> On Oct 11, 2018, at 12:24 PM, Daniel Koć  wrote:
> 
> It's much more precise than shop=yes (which is used a lot) and I know
> what food is, even if I don't know shop type details.

That is true. 

But it is being used to tag things that should have their own tag value. 

it’s like if we used building=people instead of making =house and =apartments 
and other types of residential buildings. 

Yea, it's better than building=yes, but not much better. 

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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Highway=road and building=yes are used when adding features based on
satellite imagery.

If you know that a shop sells “food”, you can also say if it sells fresh
food or nonperishables or prepared food, no?

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 12:42 PM Daniel Koć  wrote:

> W dniu 11.10.2018 o 05:08, John Willis pisze:
> > the definition of shop=food is way way way to vague to have meaning.
> > it needs to be much narrower.
> >
> > it is like shop=goods. we don’t need that either.
>
> It's much more precise than shop=yes (which is used a lot) and I know
> what food is, even if I don't know shop type details.
>
> We also use building=yes and highway=road and we need them. They are
> very useful to not cheat that a mapper knows more than she really does.
> It's always better to have more precise data, but declining more general
> categories is not a way to achieve this, it's just sweeping problem
> under the rug.
>
> --
> "Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 11.10.2018 o 05:08, John Willis pisze:
> the definition of shop=food is way way way to vague to have meaning.
> it needs to be much narrower. 
>
> it is like shop=goods. we don’t need that either. 

It's much more precise than shop=yes (which is used a lot) and I know
what food is, even if I don't know shop type details.

We also use building=yes and highway=road and we need them. They are
very useful to not cheat that a mapper knows more than she really does.
It's always better to have more precise data, but declining more general
categories is not a way to achieve this, it's just sweeping problem
under the rug.

-- 
"Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]



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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[John Willis]

the definition of shop=food is way way way to vague to have meaning. it needs 
to be much narrower. 

it is like shop=goods. we don’t need that either. 



> On Oct 11, 2018, at 1:10 AM, Jmapb  wrote:
> 
> 
> Amen! I wrote a whole spiel about this on the wiki talk page for shop=deli 
> .


"Also, I am clueless as to how to enter a "gourmet food store" to begin with. 
Any help or clarification in this matter would be greatly appreciated”

(from the talk page)

I think this is the interesting bit - and one tagging shop=food is trying to 
solve. 

By being a catch-all, it has no set value. 

Carve off specialty import/foreign goods into it’s own tag, and perhaps 
shop=gourmet for fancy specialty foods (though perhaps those are shop=deli ?? I 
dont know). 

the continued discussion for take-n-bake shops (still feels like fast food to 
me, but I will defer to the group) also removes a lot of those uses. 

What is left? probably a bunch of mis-tagged shops. 

somewhere out there is Jimbo’s turnip store and Taro’s Mochi shop, but those 
can probably filter into other tags as well (greengrocer, dessert, etc). 

I don’t think we should have shop=food + food=turnipor   shop=food + 
food=mochi. 

Honey shops? Miso Paste?

we use shop=yes and sells=* for those (as I understand it)

https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/36.29292/139.53096 


for the oddball shops, this seems to be the solution to me.

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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Jmapb]

On 10/10/2018 6:14 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote:


shop=food. This tag has not yet been approved
Approved by whom?

I approved it yesterday!


Those should be 1. shop=deli,

Have you done a survey? Adding "Deli" to a shop name does not make it
a delicatessen.


Amen! I wrote a whole spiel about this on the wiki talk page for 
shop=deli .


J
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[bkil]

Then there's also
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Ashop%3Dnutrition_supplements
depending on main profile
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 12:17 PM Andy Mabbett  wrote:
>
> On Sun, 7 Oct 2018 at 03:33, Joseph Eisenberg
>  wrote:
>
> > [...]
> > shop=food. This tag has not yet been approved
>
> Approved by whom?
>
> > I checked overpass turbo in London, New York, and San Franciso. The
> > latter had no uses; London has the most. The first few shop=food on
> > the list are
> >
> > 1. “Nana’s Deli“,
> > 2. “The Chelsea Cake Shop”,
> > 3. “Green Apple”
> > 4. “Holland And Barrett”
> >
> > Those should be 1. shop=deli,
>
> Have you done a survey? Adding "Deli" to a shop name does not make it
> a delicatessen.
>
> > 3. shop=greengrocer(?).
>
> You give neither coordinates nor a link, but depending on the
> location, Google finds "Green Apple Supermarket", a convenience store.
> Again, this should not be changed without a survey.
>
> > The fourth sells vitamis, herbal supplements and "health food", so could
> > be shop=health_food.
>
> This is part of a, international chain. What are other branches tagged as?
>
> --
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> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Andy Mabbett]

On Sun, 7 Oct 2018 at 03:33, Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:

> [...]
> shop=food. This tag has not yet been approved

Approved by whom?

> I checked overpass turbo in London, New York, and San Franciso. The
> latter had no uses; London has the most. The first few shop=food on
> the list are
>
> 1. “Nana’s Deli“,
> 2. “The Chelsea Cake Shop”,
> 3. “Green Apple”
> 4. “Holland And Barrett”
>
> Those should be 1. shop=deli,

Have you done a survey? Adding "Deli" to a shop name does not make it
a delicatessen.

> 3. shop=greengrocer(?).

You give neither coordinates nor a link, but depending on the
location, Google finds "Green Apple Supermarket", a convenience store.
Again, this should not be changed without a survey.

> The fourth sells vitamis, herbal supplements and "health food", so could
> be shop=health_food.

This is part of a, international chain. What are other branches tagged as?

-- 
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@pigsonthewing
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[John Willis]

> On Oct 10, 2018, at 4:39 AM, bkil  wrote:
> 
> Why is shop=convenience not a proper tag for "the only retail building
> in 40 miles radius"?

Usually, the small retail shop in a very remote place is tailored to the daily 
needs of locals and tourists who do activities in that area. they stock goods 
that the locals need for daily life. 

There is one general store I know of 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2519472645

Someone has tagged it as a convenience store. 

A convenience store is is convenient not only because of its proximity, 
relative to the larger supermarkets, but also because of the limited subset of 
goods. 

A general store is a store of necessity - there is no choice but it. It is the 
only practical choice unless you want to drive 2 hours round trip into "town" 
and get something at a supermarket. 

Perhaps this is bias: I grew up with 7-11s in suburban San Diego and would 
encounter general stores only when out in the mountains or deserts - they carry 
a very different mix of goods. You usually can't buy firewood, snow sleds, or 
video rental at a traditional 7-11. In Japan, you can find convenience stores 
serving very small communities in remote areas - but they carry similar goods 
to the ones in urban centers. They feel like convenience stores. Shop=general 
has some of the same goods as a convenience store - but other goods as well. 
Goods that cater to tourism activities in the area and locals who have no other 
practical choice. The "general store" you see in old western frontier towns is 
a good example. 

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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[bkil]

Why is shop=convenience not a proper tag for "the only retail building
in 40 miles radius"? Extra tags could be invented to highlight that it
has a larger variety of non-food items than usual, or we could
introduce a subtype with convenience=*.
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 10:42 AM John Willis  wrote:
>
> sounds like there are several different kinds of shops being discussed
>
>
> - old old “markets”, from before there were super markets or convenience 
> shops.
>
> - import/foreign foods shops catering to a local minority population or 
> special cultural interest
>
> - “markets” in developing countries.
>
>
> On Oct 9, 2018, at 11:56 AM, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
>
> What do you think about the need for a shop=grocery tag for small shops in 
> developing countries and specialty grocers in cities?
>
>
> Are there still small groceries in Japan which sell non-perishable food 
> items, but would not be properly considerd a shop=convenience, shop=general, 
> shop=greengrocer or shop=supermarket?
>
>
> I know the shops that you speak of. They were the local “everyday needs” shop 
> - the market/grocery shop, very similar to a general store - but in an urban 
> area. they were the only shop that had some of everything that wasn't covered 
> by the Rice shop, fish shop, the butcher, and the produce stand:  curry mix, 
> spices, dish soap, eggs, milk, toilet paper, etc. they would be shop=market, 
> if that exists.They still exist in Japan, but are almost gone. The mom-n-pop 
> ones are operated by people that live over the shop, and they are still 
> operated for the locals to come sit there and gossip - but everyone goes to 
> the supermarket 3 minutes away. they never look like they sell anything, and 
> most have been shuttered, but a few are still there.  the only corner market 
> I knew of was there are a few shop=general out in the mountains - but all the 
> “markets” were put out of business by supermarkets a long time ago in 
> California. I know of only one from personal experience. I hear of the 
> “corner shop” or “bodegas” in New York - similar to the little corner market 
> Bullitt buys his frozen dinners from in the movie in San Francisco - they 
> seem to be disappearing in developed countries.
>
> They are the proto-market: the Convenience store is more convenient, they 
> have no departments, they are not specific enough to be a greengrocer nor 
> have a stock of blankets, bullets, motor oil, and firewood like a general 
> store - they are the “daily market”, not a giant supermarket - the corner 
> store.
>
> a small market for daily living in developing countries feels like it would 
> be a shop=general - a general store has a certain feeling when it is the only 
> retail building in 40 miles in any direction, perhaps that is similar to the 
> developing country shops.
>
> I think shop=general for the small developing countries’ markets or these 
> fading local markets would be a good kludge, but it is not a fit **at all** 
> for some specialty shop in a big city.
>
> Mediterranean groceries or Caribbean foods, as found in some big cities.
>
>
> This is a great question. there are all kinds of [asian country] markets in 
> San Diego, and there are Philippine, Brazilian, and “Halal foods” shops here 
> in my area of Japan. There are also chain shops catering to “foreign foods” : 
> American snacks, British mints, South American Coffee, Italian pasta, etc. 
> they almost always are around food.
>
> if there is a convenience store, a supermarket, a “halal foods” shop, and a 
> butcher shop on the same block - that isn’t 4 “markets” - I think the idea of 
> a “foreign foods" market is good - and then choose a theme or country, or 
> religion, or similar tag would work.  . I don’t know how that aspect would be 
> tagged - but the type of shop - the “import goods from some far off place 
> catering to a minorty group that lives in the region” is a very very common 
> occurrence, and very very rarely considered by the majority residents to be a 
> place to go shopping (they all shop at the supermarket, as their ethnic and 
> culturally specific goods are stocked there). I think having a shop=halal and 
> a shop=Japanese would be wrong - as the only place they would be used is 
> outside those areas, and confusing for people inside those areas.
>
> If we try to come up with a tag that fits all these uses, it won’t fit. We 
> need to create shop=* tags to fit these separately.
>
> Javbw
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Jmapb]

On 10/9/2018 6:55 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

Both, restaurants and fast food places require that you can get there 
and get something ready to eat. If all they sell are products that 
require further preparation / cooking, I would not tag them as 
restaurant or fast food (with the exception of places that provide a 
possibility where you can cook on the premises, and that are 
considered restaurants / fast food).


Cheers,
Martin



I agree... if the food is not edible when it's purchased, it isn't fast 
food or restaurant food.


I'm favor of rendering shop=food. I think of it as a parallel syntax to 
shop=clothes. A clothes shop can be further described with 
clothes=women, clothes=hats etc. Or =clothes can be replaced with a 
narrower value, like shop=shoes, shop=fashion. Likewise, it makes sense 
to use shop=food (possibly in combination with food=*) if none of the 
more specific food shop tags like deli, convenience, greengrocer, or 
supermarket are a good fit.


J

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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 9. Okt. 2018 um 04:57 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>:

> I think I agree with you that "take-and-bake" places are a type of
> restaurant or fast-food; that's how they are being tagged in the USA.
>
>


IMHO a restaurant usually requires tables (or culturally dependend maybe an
alternative place to eat) and according to the cultural context some kind
of seating or place to seat, and typically also a waiter/table service.
Both, restaurants and fast food places require that you can get there and
get something ready to eat. If all they sell are products that require
further preparation / cooking, I would not tag them as restaurant or fast
food (with the exception of places that provide a possibility where you can
cook on the premises, and that are considered restaurants / fast food).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 9. Okt. 2018 um 00:52 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg <
joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>:

> In the USA there are shops that sell custom fresh pizzas, but they are
> uncooked. You take the prepared pizza home and cook it yourself. In the
> western USA, the chain is named “Papa Murphy’s Take And Bake Pizza”
>
> These have generally been tagged as restaurants or fastfood. In this case
> takeaway=only would be a great tag.
>
> I think it's reasonable to consider these in the category of "places that
> sell prepared food" eg restaurant/fast_food, because you often need to
> reheat take-away items.
> I would not think of these places as equivalent to a grocery or
> greengrocer.
>


While they are not similar to a grocery store, they clearly aren't similar
to a fast food or restaurant either, because you cannot go there and eat
something. If you compare them to a butcher, they are somehow similar
(butchers tend to sell prepared food which needs cooking at home for
completion, at least in Germany). The fact that they prepare the pizza
according to your wishes and fresh is a clear distinction compared to shops
that sell only frozen food. I would suggest a proper category for these
take and bake shops, maybe shop=take_and_bake? Or they would be a candidate
for the food=take_and_bake shop for specialist food shops that aren't delis
(would this be also applicable to ethnic food shops = food shops that sell
food which is typical "somewhere else", e.g. chinese convenience stores
outside china, or would a subtag for shop=convenience work better?).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Dave Swarthout]

You know, some people have advocated for a tag or, more properly, a set of
tags that can enumerate the items sold by a given shop. The tag set uses
the key "sells:*=yes/no. So if a given shop sells Korean food, one could
tag it as shop=food (or shop=convenience or grocery, or general) and
sells:korean_food=yes, or sells:pierogi=yes, etc.. The list can be as long
as one wants and the items sold can be queried via search engines or what
have you. A similar scheme has been proposed for bicycle and motorcycle
shops that employ the service:bicycle:*=yes/no tag set so one can tag
service:bicycle:repair=yes/no, service:bicycle:rental=yes/no, etc.

I'm not advocating this scenario but thought it might be of interest. I do
think it would be nice to have some overriding methodology to govern the
construction of these new tags we keep wanting to invent.

The sells key only has a few uses so far but for some reason it appeals to
me; here's the Taginfo link:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=sells

The service proposal is here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/service:bicycle

Cheers,

Dave

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 4:33 PM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> If you think the specialty shops should have there own tag, we could start
> using shop=specialty_grocery
>
> But I would like someone from England to confirm if this is the specific
> British term.
>
> I’m ok with using shop=general for the small shops in developing
> countries, if we can edit the wiki to allow use in towns and cities.
>
> I don’t believe there is shop=market tag yet. There is amenity=marketplace
> for public markets, found in old town centers in Europe but much more
> common in the developing world. Probably shop=market would be too easily
> confused with marketplaces.
> On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 5:42 PM John Willis  wrote:
>
>> sounds like there are several different kinds of shops being discussed
>>
>>
>> - old old “markets”, from before there were super markets or convenience
>> shops.
>>
>> - import/foreign foods shops catering to a local minority population or
>> special cultural interest
>>
>> - “markets” in developing countries.
>>
>>
>> On Oct 9, 2018, at 11:56 AM, Joseph Eisenberg 
>> wrote:
>>
>> What do you think about the need for a shop=grocery tag for small shops
>> in developing countries and specialty grocers in cities?
>>
>>
>> Are there still small groceries in Japan which sell non-perishable food
>> items, but would not be properly considerd a shop=convenience,
>> shop=general, shop=greengrocer or shop=supermarket?
>>
>>
>> I know the shops that you speak of. They were the local “everyday needs”
>> shop - the market/grocery shop, very similar to a general store - but in an
>> urban area. they were the only shop that had some of everything that wasn't
>> covered by the Rice shop, fish shop, the butcher, and the produce stand:
>>  curry mix, spices, dish soap, eggs, milk, toilet paper, etc. they would be
>> shop=market, if that exists.They still exist in Japan, but are almost gone.
>> The mom-n-pop ones are operated by people that live over the shop, and they
>> are still operated for the locals to come sit there and gossip - but
>> everyone goes to the supermarket 3 minutes away. they never look like they
>> sell anything, and most have been shuttered, but a few are still there.
>>  the only corner market I knew of was there are a few shop=general out in
>> the mountains - but all the “markets” were put out of business by
>> supermarkets a long time ago in California. I know of only one from
>> personal experience. I hear of the “corner shop” or “bodegas” in New York -
>> similar to the little corner market Bullitt buys his frozen dinners from in
>> the movie in San Francisco - they seem to be disappearing in developed
>> countries.
>>
>> They are the proto-market: the Convenience store is more convenient, they
>> have no departments, they are not specific enough to be a greengrocer nor
>> have a stock of blankets, bullets, motor oil, and firewood like a general
>> store - they are the “daily market”, not a giant supermarket - the corner
>> store.
>>
>> a small market for daily living in developing countries feels like it
>> would be a shop=general - a general store has a certain feeling when it is
>> the only retail building in 40 miles in any direction, perhaps that is
>> similar to the developing country shops.
>>
>> I think shop=general for the small developing countries’ markets or these
>> fading local markets would be a good kludge, but it is not a fit **at all**
>> for some specialty shop in a big city.
>>
>> Mediterranean groceries or Caribbean foods, as found in some big cities.
>>
>>
>> This is a great question. there are all kinds of [asian country] markets
>> in San Diego, and there are Philippine, Brazilian, and “Halal foods” shops
>> here in my area of Japan. There are also chain shops catering to “foreign
>> foods” : American snacks, British mints, South American Coffee, Italian
>> pasta, etc. 

Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

If you think the specialty shops should have there own tag, we could start
using shop=specialty_grocery

But I would like someone from England to confirm if this is the specific
British term.

I’m ok with using shop=general for the small shops in developing countries,
if we can edit the wiki to allow use in towns and cities.

I don’t believe there is shop=market tag yet. There is amenity=marketplace
for public markets, found in old town centers in Europe but much more
common in the developing world. Probably shop=market would be too easily
confused with marketplaces.
On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 5:42 PM John Willis  wrote:

> sounds like there are several different kinds of shops being discussed
>
>
> - old old “markets”, from before there were super markets or convenience
> shops.
>
> - import/foreign foods shops catering to a local minority population or
> special cultural interest
>
> - “markets” in developing countries.
>
>
> On Oct 9, 2018, at 11:56 AM, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
>
> What do you think about the need for a shop=grocery tag for small shops in
> developing countries and specialty grocers in cities?
>
>
> Are there still small groceries in Japan which sell non-perishable food
> items, but would not be properly considerd a shop=convenience,
> shop=general, shop=greengrocer or shop=supermarket?
>
>
> I know the shops that you speak of. They were the local “everyday needs”
> shop - the market/grocery shop, very similar to a general store - but in an
> urban area. they were the only shop that had some of everything that wasn't
> covered by the Rice shop, fish shop, the butcher, and the produce stand:
>  curry mix, spices, dish soap, eggs, milk, toilet paper, etc. they would be
> shop=market, if that exists.They still exist in Japan, but are almost gone.
> The mom-n-pop ones are operated by people that live over the shop, and they
> are still operated for the locals to come sit there and gossip - but
> everyone goes to the supermarket 3 minutes away. they never look like they
> sell anything, and most have been shuttered, but a few are still there.
>  the only corner market I knew of was there are a few shop=general out in
> the mountains - but all the “markets” were put out of business by
> supermarkets a long time ago in California. I know of only one from
> personal experience. I hear of the “corner shop” or “bodegas” in New York -
> similar to the little corner market Bullitt buys his frozen dinners from in
> the movie in San Francisco - they seem to be disappearing in developed
> countries.
>
> They are the proto-market: the Convenience store is more convenient, they
> have no departments, they are not specific enough to be a greengrocer nor
> have a stock of blankets, bullets, motor oil, and firewood like a general
> store - they are the “daily market”, not a giant supermarket - the corner
> store.
>
> a small market for daily living in developing countries feels like it
> would be a shop=general - a general store has a certain feeling when it is
> the only retail building in 40 miles in any direction, perhaps that is
> similar to the developing country shops.
>
> I think shop=general for the small developing countries’ markets or these
> fading local markets would be a good kludge, but it is not a fit **at all**
> for some specialty shop in a big city.
>
> Mediterranean groceries or Caribbean foods, as found in some big cities.
>
>
> This is a great question. there are all kinds of [asian country] markets
> in San Diego, and there are Philippine, Brazilian, and “Halal foods” shops
> here in my area of Japan. There are also chain shops catering to “foreign
> foods” : American snacks, British mints, South American Coffee, Italian
> pasta, etc. they almost always are around food.
>
> if there is a convenience store, a supermarket, a “halal foods” shop, and
> a butcher shop on the same block - that isn’t 4 “markets” - I think the
> idea of a “foreign foods" market is good - and then choose a theme or
> country, or religion, or similar tag would work.  . I don’t know how that
> aspect would be tagged - but the type of shop - the “import goods from some
> far off place catering to a minorty group that lives in the region” is a
> very very common occurrence, and very very rarely considered by the
> majority residents to be a place to go shopping (they all shop at the
> supermarket, as their ethnic and culturally specific goods are stocked
> there). I think having a shop=halal and a shop=Japanese would be wrong - as
> the only place they would be used is outside those areas, and confusing for
> people inside those areas.
>
> If we try to come up with a tag that fits all these uses, it won’t fit. We
> need to create shop=* tags to fit these separately.
>
> Javbw
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[John Willis]

sounds like there are several different kinds of shops being discussed


- old old “markets”, from before there were super markets or convenience shops. 

- import/foreign foods shops catering to a local minority population or special 
cultural interest

- “markets” in developing countries.   


> On Oct 9, 2018, at 11:56 AM, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> What do you think about the need for a shop=grocery tag for small shops in 
> developing countries and specialty grocers in cities?
> 
> Are there still small groceries in Japan which sell non-perishable food 
> items, but would not be properly considerd a shop=convenience, shop=general, 
> shop=greengrocer or shop=supermarket?

I know the shops that you speak of. They were the local “everyday needs” shop - 
the market/grocery shop, very similar to a general store - but in an urban 
area. they were the only shop that had some of everything that wasn't covered 
by the Rice shop, fish shop, the butcher, and the produce stand:  curry mix, 
spices, dish soap, eggs, milk, toilet paper, etc. they would be shop=market, if 
that exists.They still exist in Japan, but are almost gone. The mom-n-pop ones 
are operated by people that live over the shop, and they are still operated for 
the locals to come sit there and gossip - but everyone goes to the supermarket 
3 minutes away. they never look like they sell anything, and most have been 
shuttered, but a few are still there.  the only corner market I knew of was 
there are a few shop=general out in the mountains - but all the “markets” were 
put out of business by supermarkets a long time ago in California. I know of 
only one from personal experience. I hear of the “corner shop” or “bodegas” in 
New York - similar to the little corner market Bullitt buys his frozen dinners 
from in the movie in San Francisco - they seem to be disappearing in developed 
countries.

They are the proto-market: the Convenience store is more convenient, they have 
no departments, they are not specific enough to be a greengrocer nor have a 
stock of blankets, bullets, motor oil, and firewood like a general store - they 
are the “daily market”, not a giant supermarket - the corner store. 

a small market for daily living in developing countries feels like it would be 
a shop=general - a general store has a certain feeling when it is the only 
retail building in 40 miles in any direction, perhaps that is similar to the 
developing country shops. 

I think shop=general for the small developing countries’ markets or these 
fading local markets would be a good kludge, but it is not a fit **at all** for 
some specialty shop in a big city.

> Mediterranean groceries or Caribbean foods, as found in some big cities.


This is a great question. there are all kinds of [asian country] markets in San 
Diego, and there are Philippine, Brazilian, and “Halal foods” shops here in my 
area of Japan. There are also chain shops catering to “foreign foods” : 
American snacks, British mints, South American Coffee, Italian pasta, etc. they 
almost always are around food. 

if there is a convenience store, a supermarket, a “halal foods” shop, and a 
butcher shop on the same block - that isn’t 4 “markets” - I think the idea of a 
“foreign foods" market is good - and then choose a theme or country, or 
religion, or similar tag would work.  . I don’t know how that aspect would be 
tagged - but the type of shop - the “import goods from some far off place 
catering to a minorty group that lives in the region” is a very very common 
occurrence, and very very rarely considered by the majority residents to be a 
place to go shopping (they all shop at the supermarket, as their ethnic and 
culturally specific goods are stocked there). I think having a shop=halal and a 
shop=Japanese would be wrong - as the only place they would be used is outside 
those areas, and confusing for people inside those areas. 

If we try to come up with a tag that fits all these uses, it won’t fit. We need 
to create shop=* tags to fit these separately. 

Javbw




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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Javbw,
Thanks for the detailed discussion.
I think I agree with you that "take-and-bake" places are a type of
restaurant or fast-food; that's how they are being tagged in the USA.

What do you think about the need for a shop=grocery tag for small shops in
developing countries and specialty grocers in cities?

Are there still small groceries in Japan which sell non-perishable food
items, but would not be properly considerd a shop=convenience,
shop=general, shop=greengrocer or shop=supermarket?

I don't think shop=food is a good idea, but I do think there are shops that
sell groceries but do not really fit in any of those 4 existing categories.
The other option would be to use shop=general for small groceries, because
many of them also sell other nonperishable items, similar to a rural
general store/shop.
But that might lead to some confusion too, and it wouldn't work well for a
shop that specializes in selling Mediterranean groceries or Caribbean
foods, as found in some big cities.

Joseph

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 11:28 AM John Willis  wrote:

>
> On Oct 9, 2018, at 7:50 AM, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
>
> shop=food
>
>
> + cuisine=local/polish.
>
>
>
> -1
>
> shop=food is called a market. we have that already.  cuisine=* is for
> restaurants and other non-shop places.
>
>
> amenity=fast_food
> fast_food=take-n-bake (or whatever is decided: take-n-bake=yes/no/only,
> etc)
> cuisine=perogi
>
>
> TL;DR:
>
> - make a “takaway” or take-n-bake” subtype of amenity=fast_food **for
> freshly-prepared-food items to be taken home, cooked, and served. **
>
>
> - Unless it is the ingredients for making a food, or sells large amounts
> the food in bulk to take home, shop=* is wrong. Unless this pizza shop is
> selling you pizza ingredients or bulk boxes of frozen pizza - I don’t think
> it is a shop.
>
> - don’t pollute shop=* with restaurants and fast food. probably most uses
> of shop=ice_cream and shop=bakery are already not proper for the shop key,
> and most uses should be tagged amenity=fast_food + cuisine=* . a
> take-n-bake pizza shop or a shop selling a tray of freshly prepared, yet
> uncooked perogis or Gyoza is very close to a fast_food takeaway shop
> selling cooked pizza.
>
> - People should be free to define a business using amenity=restaurant or
> amenity=fast_food using any cuisine=* value - and tags that go against it
> (amenity=ice cream) should be depreciated.
>
> - being conscious of creating proper tags for “prepared food to be eaten
> now” that are distinct from shops that sell ingredients (supermarket,
> butcher shop) or bulk (shop=ice cream)  will solve both of the above
> issues.
>
> - not solving this issue with generic tags that are not conscious of this
> issue will lead to a lot of “reinventing the wheel” for each type of food
> and immense tagging pollution through confusion.
>
>
> ~
>
>
>
> I think it is better to use an existing amenity=fast_food or similar tag,
> and not to mix shop=* and cuisine  for the job. We have have fast food,
> restaurant, pub, cafe, and probably a couple others. perhaps we need a
> sub-tag of one of those to be “take-n-bake” type shop.
>
>
> make a tag solution for takeout / takeaway/ premade meals or items,
> otherwise you get a ball of confusion and disagreement, like the tagging
> for an ice cream shop:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dice_cream
> 
>
> "A place that sells ice cream and frozen yoghurt over the counter.”
>
>
> and now there is
>
>  shop=ice_cream   "For places selling ice cream to take home”
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dice_cream
>
> or
>
> amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream (? I guess these exist somewhere, where
> ice cream drinks are sold?)
>
> or
>
> amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (proper replacement for
> amenity=ice_cream)
>
>
> There should be standardized tags for an ice cream parlor, where people
> sit down for an extended period of time and enjoy custom made ice cream
> treats at booths and tables.
>
> If this place sounds similar to similar to an ice cream “restaurant” -
> that is because it *is* a type of restaurant.
>
> They are rare, but a proper ice cream parlor is basically an ice cream
> restaturant.
>
> amenity=restaurant + cuisine=ice_cream is an ice cream parlor. I don’t
> need to define a tag with “ice cream parlor” in it, because it is merely
> the “cuisine” offered.
>
> Baskin Robbins, Cold Stone, and a stand selling ice cream in cones/cups in
> a mall/storefront are all amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (replaces
> amenity=ice_cream)
>
> a true shop=ice_cream is selling large amounts of pre-packaged or produced
> ice cream for you to take home - or the ingredients you make your own at
> home (eg: brewing_supply).
>
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop#Food.2C_beverages
>
> all the shops listed there have the primary purpose of selling you
> ingredients to make other things.
>
> 

Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[John Willis]

> On Oct 9, 2018, at 7:50 AM, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> shop=food 

> + cuisine=local/polish.



-1

shop=food is called a market. we have that already.  cuisine=* is for 
restaurants and other non-shop places. 


amenity=fast_food
fast_food=take-n-bake (or whatever is decided: take-n-bake=yes/no/only, etc) 
cuisine=perogi


TL;DR: 

- make a “takaway” or take-n-bake” subtype of amenity=fast_food **for 
freshly-prepared-food items to be taken home, cooked, and served. ** 


- Unless it is the ingredients for making a food, or sells large amounts the 
food in bulk to take home, shop=* is wrong. Unless this pizza shop is selling 
you pizza ingredients or bulk boxes of frozen pizza - I don’t think it is a 
shop. 

- don’t pollute shop=* with restaurants and fast food. probably most uses of 
shop=ice_cream and shop=bakery are already not proper for the shop key, and 
most uses should be tagged amenity=fast_food + cuisine=* . a take-n-bake pizza 
shop or a shop selling a tray of freshly prepared, yet uncooked perogis or 
Gyoza is very close to a fast_food takeaway shop selling cooked pizza. 

- People should be free to define a business using amenity=restaurant or 
amenity=fast_food using any cuisine=* value - and tags that go against it 
(amenity=ice cream) should be depreciated. 

- being conscious of creating proper tags for “prepared food to be eaten now” 
that are distinct from shops that sell ingredients (supermarket, butcher shop) 
or bulk (shop=ice cream)  will solve both of the above issues. 

- not solving this issue with generic tags that are not conscious of this issue 
will lead to a lot of “reinventing the wheel” for each type of food and immense 
tagging pollution through confusion.  


~



I think it is better to use an existing amenity=fast_food or similar tag, and 
not to mix shop=* and cuisine  for the job. We have have fast food, restaurant, 
pub, cafe, and probably a couple others. perhaps we need a sub-tag of one of 
those to be “take-n-bake” type shop. 
 

make a tag solution for takeout / takeaway/ premade meals or items, otherwise 
you get a ball of confusion and disagreement, like the tagging for an ice cream 
shop:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dice_cream 


"A place that sells ice cream and frozen yoghurt over the counter.”


and now there is

 shop=ice_cream   "For places selling ice cream to take home” 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dice_cream

or 

amenity=cafe + cuisine=ice_cream (? I guess these exist somewhere, where ice 
cream drinks are sold?) 

or 

amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (proper replacement for amenity=ice_cream)


There should be standardized tags for an ice cream parlor, where people sit 
down for an extended period of time and enjoy custom made ice cream treats at 
booths and tables. 

If this place sounds similar to similar to an ice cream “restaurant” - that is 
because it *is* a type of restaurant.

They are rare, but a proper ice cream parlor is basically an ice cream 
restaturant. 

amenity=restaurant + cuisine=ice_cream is an ice cream parlor. I don’t need to 
define a tag with “ice cream parlor” in it, because it is merely the “cuisine” 
offered. 

Baskin Robbins, Cold Stone, and a stand selling ice cream in cones/cups in a 
mall/storefront are all amenity=fast_food + cuisine=ice_cream (replaces 
amenity=ice_cream)

a true shop=ice_cream is selling large amounts of pre-packaged or produced ice 
cream for you to take home - or the ingredients you make your own at home (eg: 
brewing_supply). 


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shop#Food.2C_beverages 


all the shops listed there have the primary purpose of selling you 
ingredients to make other things. 

Places where we sell prepared food to sit and eat is a restaurant. the coffee 
shop sells bagged coffee and brewing machines as it’s primary purpose - not 
brewed coffee drinks like a cafe. the bread shops we have in Japan would easily 
be amenity=fast_food + cuisine=bread - they are full of prepared food for quick 
meals or snacks - not shelves full of bread loaves or bags of rolls to make 
dinner with. There are a couple, but it’s not the focus of the place. I 
consider this an error in using the shop=key. 

I do not want this error to spread via a generic shop=food tag. 

*We made the distinction between restaurant and fast food for this very 
reason.* shop=* shouldn't be involved. 

A butcher shop isn't cuisine=meat for this reason - they are shops. 

I bring up ice cream not because I care so much about it - but it is a good 
example of tagging that that cannot be applied to other types, and can be fixed 
and be much more flexible using generic tags. 

We should create tags describe the type of *business*, as this greatly affects 
how the customer views the business. This also makes it impossible to tag 

Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

In the USA there are shops that sell custom fresh pizzas, but they are
uncooked. You take the prepared pizza home and cook it yourself. In the
western USA, the chain is named “Papa Murphy’s Take And Bake Pizza”

These have generally been tagged as restaurants or fastfood. In this case
takeaway=only would be a great tag.

I think it's reasonable to consider these in the category of "places that
sell prepared food" eg restaurant/fast_food, because you often need to
reheat take-away items.
I would not think of these places as equivalent to a grocery or greengrocer.

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 7:27 AM Daniel Koć  wrote:

> W dniu 08.10.2018 o 23:00, Martin Koppenhoefer pisze:
>
> > +1 to a dedicated tag, e.g. deli=pierogi
> > Maybe you’d want to distinguish deli from ordinary pierogi though.
> > What about shop=food food=pierogi for the „usual“ pierogi shop?
>
> I have tagged similar shops. They sell typical Polish cuisine, so no
> deli at all (it might be a Polish shop in the USA). And there are not
> only dumplings (pierogi), but also other things like pancakes etc. So
> for me it's just shop=food + cuisine=local/polish.
>
> > I think it could eventually make sense to have a more generic shop=food
> tag for special food shops, which can then get the subtags that are needed
> for the local context. I just don’t think it should be used for generic
> food shops, as there is already a wide variety of tags in use that better
> describe the shop (convenience, supermarket, greengrocer, etc.). Maybe it
> should get a different name, because „food“ will be interpreted in all
> kinds of ways, including cooked meals.
>
> I'm all for having generic tags, because you don't always know the
> details, so blind tagging might be damaging data. I think the wiki
> definition should go like:
>
> shop=food is for a shop selling food other than any of more specific type:
> - shop=convenience - ...
> - shop=greengrocer - only vegetables and fruits
> - ...
>
> This way we could have both general tag and specific tags properly
> presented to the mappers.
>
> I'm not familiar with English types of shops, I have to check what
> grocery or convenience is to be sure. Simple term like shop=food is like
> building=yes (I'm sure it's a building, but I don't know exact type). It
> would be also good to have amenity=food (~100 uses now) when I'm not
> sure what kind of eating place it is (just passing by and collecting
> POIs), to not force people to guessing tags, which looks solid, but is
> spoiling database.
>
> --
> "Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

In British English usage, would shop=grocery be appropriate for small shops
that sell mainly non-perishable food and groceries?

In America we really would never call any shop a “food store” or “food
shop.”

On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 6:02 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 8. Oct 2018, at 20:17, bkil  wrote:
> >
> > How do you like this one?
> > shop=deli + cuisine=pierogi
>
>
> +1 to a dedicated tag, e.g. deli=pierogi
> Maybe you’d want to distinguish deli from ordinary pierogi though.
> What about shop=food food=pierogi for the „usual“ pierogi shop?
>
> I think it could eventually make sense to have a more generic shop=food
> tag for special food shops, which can then get the subtags that are needed
> for the local context. I just don’t think it should be used for generic
> food shops, as there is already a wide variety of tags in use that better
> describe the shop (convenience, supermarket, greengrocer, etc.). Maybe it
> should get a different name, because „food“ will be interpreted in all
> kinds of ways, including cooked meals.
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 08.10.2018 o 23:00, Martin Koppenhoefer pisze:

> +1 to a dedicated tag, e.g. deli=pierogi
> Maybe you’d want to distinguish deli from ordinary pierogi though.
> What about shop=food food=pierogi for the „usual“ pierogi shop?

I have tagged similar shops. They sell typical Polish cuisine, so no
deli at all (it might be a Polish shop in the USA). And there are not
only dumplings (pierogi), but also other things like pancakes etc. So
for me it's just shop=food + cuisine=local/polish.

> I think it could eventually make sense to have a more generic shop=food tag 
> for special food shops, which can then get the subtags that are needed for 
> the local context. I just don’t think it should be used for generic food 
> shops, as there is already a wide variety of tags in use that better describe 
> the shop (convenience, supermarket, greengrocer, etc.). Maybe it should get a 
> different name, because „food“ will be interpreted in all kinds of ways, 
> including cooked meals.

I'm all for having generic tags, because you don't always know the
details, so blind tagging might be damaging data. I think the wiki
definition should go like:

shop=food is for a shop selling food other than any of more specific type:
- shop=convenience - ...
- shop=greengrocer - only vegetables and fruits
- ...

This way we could have both general tag and specific tags properly
presented to the mappers.

I'm not familiar with English types of shops, I have to check what
grocery or convenience is to be sure. Simple term like shop=food is like
building=yes (I'm sure it's a building, but I don't know exact type). It
would be also good to have amenity=food (~100 uses now) when I'm not
sure what kind of eating place it is (just passing by and collecting
POIs), to not force people to guessing tags, which looks solid, but is
spoiling database.

-- 
"Excuse me, I have some growing up to do" [P. Gabriel]



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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Oct 2018, at 20:17, bkil  wrote:
> 
> How do you like this one?
> shop=deli + cuisine=pierogi


+1 to a dedicated tag, e.g. deli=pierogi
Maybe you’d want to distinguish deli from ordinary pierogi though.
What about shop=food food=pierogi for the „usual“ pierogi shop?

I think it could eventually make sense to have a more generic shop=food tag for 
special food shops, which can then get the subtags that are needed for the 
local context. I just don’t think it should be used for generic food shops, as 
there is already a wide variety of tags in use that better describe the shop 
(convenience, supermarket, greengrocer, etc.). Maybe it should get a different 
name, because „food“ will be interpreted in all kinds of ways, including cooked 
meals.





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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[bkil]

How do you like this one?
shop=deli + cuisine=pierogi

On Sun, Oct 7, 2018 at 2:11 PM Mateusz Konieczny
 wrote:
>
> 7. Oct 2018 04:33 by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com:
>
> So this tag isn't very specific yet
>
>
> I used it because it was not specific for 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3033173319
>
>
> It is selling only one type of food (pierogi) that are relatively easy to 
> prepare but are
>
> not edible immediately after buying (so it is not takeaway fast food).
>
>
> I guess that in many cases people  were unaware about alternatives or there 
> was no suitable tag
>
> so they decided to use shop=food as generic one.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Yves]

Not sure it's a good idea to render it if no one really knows what it means :)
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Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

7. Oct 2018 04:33 by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com 
:


> So this tag isn't very specific yet




I used it because it was not specific for 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3033173319 





It is selling only one type of food (pierogi) that are relatively easy to 
prepare but are 


not edible immediately after buying (so it is not takeaway fast food).




I guess that in many cases people  were unaware about alternatives or there was 
no suitable tag

so they decided to use shop=food as generic one.

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[Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

The team at OpenStreetMap Carto (the "Standard" map style shown on top at
the main openstreetmap.org page) is considering rendering shop=food. This
tag has not yet been approved and only has a stub wiki page
, but it's usage has
climbed over 2k on taginfo
. Taginfo shows it is
used in England and the USA, but it seems more popular in Central Europe,
Japan and the Phillipines. I couldn’t find info on combinations used.

There are a number of similar shop types in use: shop=health_food,
shop=general, shop=convenience, shop=supermarket, shop=bakery, shop=deli.

There is also shop=grocery, also not approved but it does have a more
complete wiki description.

I checked overpass turbo in London, New York, and San Franciso. The latter
had no uses; London has the most. The first few shop=food on the list are

1. “Nana’s Deli“,
2. “The Chelsea Cake Shop”,
3. “Green Apple”
4. “Holland And Barrett”

Those should be 1. shop=deli, 2. shop=bakery, 3. shop=greengrocer(?).  The
fourth sells vitamis, herbal supplements and "health food", so could be
shop=health_food. Farther down the list are a few shops with description
“Bulgarian Food” and another “African and Zim food”, so could be specialty
grocers, I haven’t confirmed

In New York, overpass turbo shows:
1 “Busy Bee” note=Polish,
2 “Whole Foods Market”
3 “Caputo’s Fine Foods”

According to Google, #1 is a grocery store, #2 is a supermarket,  #3 is an
Italian Deli and grocer

So this tag isn't very specific yet.

But I do see the need for a way to tag specialty grocers (which sell mainly
non-perishable food items), small groceries that are not greengrocers or
convenience shops, and shops selling food times as well as a mix of general
merchandise.

The wiki page for shop=general suggests it is "the only shop for
kilometers", but in my town in Indonesia there are many shops that would
otherwise qualify, because they sell groceries along with other essentials
and some random hardware items. Others are more specifically grocery shops,
but do not qualify as a supermarket or convenciene shop.

In British English usage, would shop=grocery or shop=food be more
appropriate for these shorts of shops? They are probably not very common in
England, but may be found in developing countries and perhaps in small
towns without a supermarket.

-Joseph
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