Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Dave Swarthout]

Same with my comment - I don't really have a stake in the outcome of this
discussion. I was merely making an observation that reflects my American
point of view.

>"the same objection could be raised to "shop", which isn't the first word
that comes to mind for the large
> establishments, but again shop has come to mean "somewhere that sells
things/services".

Agreed, the shop tag is already being stretched to the limit IMO; shop=mall
comes to mind immediately

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 6:08 PM, ael  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 10:03:57AM -0400, Mark Bradley wrote:
> > Thanks for all the replies.  It seems there are two already-established
> tagging schemes for what I want to map.  They are
> >
> >
> >
> > shop=agrarian
> >
> > or
> >
> > shop=trade
> > trade=agricultural_supplies
>
> After my last post, I realise that the trade tag has extra information:
> professionals are offered additional services such as accounts,
> credit, special tax arranagements (at least in some countries), bulk
> discounts and the like.
>
> But checking the wiki I see all those agrarian subtags. I guess
> agricultural_supplies=* could be used to add the same information to the
> shop=trade version.
>
> Again, just an observation.
>
> ael
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[ael]

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 10:03:57AM -0400, Mark Bradley wrote:
> Thanks for all the replies.  It seems there are two already-established 
> tagging schemes for what I want to map.  They are
> 
> 
> 
> shop=agrarian
> 
> or
> 
> shop=trade
> trade=agricultural_supplies

After my last post, I realise that the trade tag has extra information:
professionals are offered additional services such as accounts,
credit, special tax arranagements (at least in some countries), bulk
discounts and the like.

But checking the wiki I see all those agrarian subtags. I guess 
agricultural_supplies=* could be used to add the same information to the
shop=trade version.

Again, just an observation.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[ael]

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 08:04:35AM +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> shop=agrarian is terrible, I agree. Is this a shop that caters to
> "agrarians" or does it sell "agrarians"?
> 
> Nor do I like shop=trade, trade=agricultural_supplies. I don't think of
> farming or agriculture as a trade similar to that practiced by a plumber or
> electrician, but maybe that's only me.

It was originally invented for the "building trade", and then got
generalised. In the UK, at least, such shops usually use the term
"trade" which is where it came from. I agree that it is not the most natural
word to use for farming. But the specialist farm "shops", again in the UK,
at least, treat their professional farmer clients, in a similar way
offering accounts, credit, bulk discounts and the like.

So trade has just the same semantics, so it would be redundant to invent
another tag. Not sure what a more general tag would look like. As
pointed out earlier, the same objection could be raised to "shop",
which isn't the first word that comes to mind for the large
establishments, but again shop has come to mean "somewhere that sells
things/services".

Just observations and history.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Safwat Halaby]

On Wed, 2017-09-27 at 10:01 -0700, Mark Wagner wrote:
> This isn't a garden center.  A garden center is where you'd go to get
> a
> half-kilo bag of pre-mixed fertilizer, or a tray of seedlings, or
> similar small-scale items.  A farming-supply business is where you'd
> go to get a tank-trailer of anhydrous ammonia, or a thousand...

Sorry.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Dave Swarthout]

shop=agrarian is terrible, I agree. Is this a shop that caters to
"agrarians" or does it sell "agrarians"?

Nor do I like shop=trade, trade=agricultural_supplies. I don't think of
farming or agriculture as a trade similar to that practiced by a plumber or
electrician, but maybe that's only me.

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 6:26 AM, Craig Wallace 
wrote:

> On 2017-09-27 23:45, Kevin Kenny wrote:
>
>> I think my earlier posting on this subject got lost.
>>
>> The Wiki shows 'shop=agrarian' whose definition seems to fit.
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dagrarian
>>
>> (The name stinks, but it's there. I'd call it a 'feed and seed store' or
>> a 'farm equipment dealer' depending on whether the specialty is feed, seed,
>> fertilizer, pesticides, etc., or tractors, combines, etc.)
>>
> Yes, "agrarian" is a rubbish name for this. Sounds like it is based on a
> mistranslation.
> It would rarely be called this in English. Agrarian is usually more of an
> obscure political/economic concept.
>
> Would make more sense just to call it shop=agricultural. With subtags for
> seed, fertilizer, tools etc
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Craig Wallace]

On 2017-09-27 23:45, Kevin Kenny wrote:

I think my earlier posting on this subject got lost.

The Wiki shows 'shop=agrarian' whose definition seems to fit.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dagrarian

(The name stinks, but it's there. I'd call it a 'feed and seed store' 
or a 'farm equipment dealer' depending on whether the specialty is 
feed, seed, fertilizer, pesticides, etc., or tractors, combines, etc.)
Yes, "agrarian" is a rubbish name for this. Sounds like it is based on a 
mistranslation.
It would rarely be called this in English. Agrarian is usually more of 
an obscure political/economic concept.


Would make more sense just to call it shop=agricultural. With subtags 
for seed, fertilizer, tools etc


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Kevin Kenny]

I think my earlier posting on this subject got lost.

The Wiki shows 'shop=agrarian' whose definition seems to fit.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dagrarian

(The name stinks, but it's there. I'd call it a 'feed and seed store' or a
'farm equipment dealer' depending on whether the specialty is feed, seed,
fertilizer, pesticides, etc., or tractors, combines, etc.)
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Mark Wagner]

On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 13:26:38 +0300
Safwat Halaby  wrote:

> shop=garden_centre is already established.
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dgarden_centre
> 

This isn't a garden center.  A garden center is where you'd go to get a
half-kilo bag of pre-mixed fertilizer, or a tray of seedlings, or
similar small-scale items.  A farming-supply business is where you'd go
to get a tank-trailer of anhydrous ammonia, or a thousand kilos of
wheat seed, or the like.  They're simply not equipped for transactions
on a smaller-than-truckload scale.

Google Street View of a local example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6802384,-117.8791573,3a,70.9y,283.42h,84.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sx7H1Ke3SsdEQ740SSg8oQw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m2!1e4!1e1

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27. Sep 2017, at 14:19, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
> 
> IMO, a garden_centre is not the same sort of shop as one that sells 
> agricultural equipment



+1



>  It's a question of scale and intended audience that differentiates the two 
> businesses.


+1, and of the kind of stuff sold. Garden centres sell mostly stuff for 
gardens, while agricultural equipment sells stuff for farmers. There might be 
some overlap, but the target audience is clearly different 


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Mark Bradley]

Thanks for all the replies.  It seems there are two already-established tagging 
schemes for what I want to map.  They are



shop=agrarian

or

shop=trade
trade=agricultural_supplies



According to Taginfo, these schemes are used approximately equally, so I'll use 
one of them.  That being said, I'm not surprised I didn't initially discover 
either one of these.  I don't think most people (including myself) would think 
of one of these features as a "shop," so that's why I never considered this 
tag.  Such are the quirks of OSM.

Mark



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Dave Swarthout]

IMO, a garden_centre is not the same sort of shop as one that sells
agricultural equipment although gardening is still considered agriculture.
It caters to the backyard gardener by selling seeds, lawnmowers,  potted
plants, fertilizer in small bags and hand tools for gardening, all in
relatively small quantities. It's a question of scale and intended audience
that differentiates the two businesses.

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 5:28 PM, Safwat Halaby  wrote:

> There's garden_centre for less specialized shops.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dgarden_centre
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Safwat Halaby]

There's garden_centre for less specialized shops.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dgarden_centre

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Safwat Halaby]

shop=garden_centre is already established.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dgarden_centre



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Sep 2017, at 23:57, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> For the area
> 
> landuse=retail
> 
> As it is for selling stuff.



not every sale is retail, might be wholesale as well. 


cheers,
Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[John F. Eldredge]

Here in Nashville, Tennessee, the state government has a large facility 
called Ellington Agricultural Center 
. It is not an 
agricultural-supply business such as you described, but rather the 
headquarters of the Tennessee Dept. of Agriculture, including offices, a 
museum, an experimental farm, etc. I would not be surprised if there are 
such government agricultural centers elsewhere in the US and around the world.





On September 25, 2017 1:54:55 PM "Mark Bradley" 
 wrote:



In the Midwestern US we have places scattered throughout the countryside
whose purpose is to sell farming supplies, such as seed, feed, herbicide,
anhydrous ammonia, etc.  I'm talking about a parcel of land, typically with
several buildings situated on it, and plenty of room for parking and
maneuvering farm vehicles and trucks.  None of the existing tags in the Wiki
seem to fit to describe these facilities.  I'm looking for suggestions on
how to tag these.  A type of landuse?



Mark




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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Warin]

On 26-Sep-17 06:30 AM, ael wrote:

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 02:53:36PM -0400, Mark Bradley wrote:

In the Midwestern US we have places scattered throughout the countryside
whose purpose is to sell farming supplies, such as seed, feed, herbicide,
anhydrous ammonia, etc.  I'm talking about a parcel of land, typically with
several buildings situated on it, and plenty of room for parking and
maneuvering farm vehicles and trucks.  None of the existing tags in the Wiki
seem to fit to describe these facilities.

I think that you have missed:
shop=trade
trade=agricultural_supplies
which seems to fit very well with what you describe.

See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade , although I
don't know why the wiki page restricts it to equipment: it shouldn't.



For the area

landuse=retail

As it is for selling stuff.


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[ael]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 02:21:29PM -0500, Micah Cochran wrote:
> Would this be some form of a farmers' co-ops  or agricultural cooperative?
>  (The Wikipedia article notes a few different meanings to this term.)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_cooperative
> 
> I briefly looked and found someone tagged a local farmer's co-op as a
> building (in Alabama), which it is only one building facility.
> 
> building=yes
> shop=trade
> trade=agricultural_supplies
> 
> 
> That may not work quite as well for a multi-building scenario.

No, it was always intended to cover such places as well. I should
declare an interest. I originated that tag.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[ael]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 02:53:36PM -0400, Mark Bradley wrote:
> In the Midwestern US we have places scattered throughout the countryside
> whose purpose is to sell farming supplies, such as seed, feed, herbicide,
> anhydrous ammonia, etc.  I'm talking about a parcel of land, typically with
> several buildings situated on it, and plenty of room for parking and
> maneuvering farm vehicles and trucks.  None of the existing tags in the Wiki
> seem to fit to describe these facilities.

I think that you have missed:
   shop=trade
   trade=agricultural_supplies
which seems to fit very well with what you describe.

See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dtrade , although I
don't know why the wiki page restricts it to equipment: it shouldn't.

ael



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Mark Bradley 
wrote:

> In the Midwestern US we have places scattered throughout the countryside
> whose purpose is to sell farming supplies, such as seed, feed, herbicide,
> anhydrous ammonia, etc.  I’m talking about a parcel of land, typically with
> several buildings situated on it, and plenty of room for parking and
> maneuvering farm vehicles and trucks.  None of the existing tags in the
> Wiki seem to fit to describe these facilities.  I’m looking for suggestions
> on how to tag these.  A type of landuse?
>

Would http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dagrarian do it? I don't
think there's anything that presumes a 'shop' must be a single building, or
even located in a building.
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Micah Cochran]

Would this be some form of a farmers' co-ops  or agricultural cooperative?
 (The Wikipedia article notes a few different meanings to this term.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_cooperative

I briefly looked and found someone tagged a local farmer's co-op as a
building (in Alabama), which it is only one building facility.

building=yes
shop=trade
trade=agricultural_supplies


That may not work quite as well for a multi-building scenario.

Micah

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Mark Bradley 
wrote:

> In the Midwestern US we have places scattered throughout the countryside
> whose purpose is to sell farming supplies, such as seed, feed, herbicide,
> anhydrous ammonia, etc.  I’m talking about a parcel of land, typically with
> several buildings situated on it, and plenty of room for parking and
> maneuvering farm vehicles and trucks.  None of the existing tags in the
> Wiki seem to fit to describe these facilities.  I’m looking for suggestions
> on how to tag these.  A type of landuse?
>
>
>
> Mark
>
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[Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Mark Bradley]

In the Midwestern US we have places scattered throughout the countryside
whose purpose is to sell farming supplies, such as seed, feed, herbicide,
anhydrous ammonia, etc.  I'm talking about a parcel of land, typically with
several buildings situated on it, and plenty of room for parking and
maneuvering farm vehicles and trucks.  None of the existing tags in the Wiki
seem to fit to describe these facilities.  I'm looking for suggestions on
how to tag these.  A type of landuse?

 

Mark

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