Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Markus]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 at 23:01, John Willis via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> Is "foot:lanes" An established value?

There are only 32 uses according to Taginfo and the tag isn't mentioned in
the wiki. However, there are 4,450 uses of bicycle:lanes and that tag is
briefly mentioned in the wiki. [1][2]

I'm unsure if foot:lanes works as a alternative to pedestrian_lane or if
this is only an addition for more complex situations. In any case i don't
see a problem with it as opposed to sidewalk:right:kerb=no.

Besides, i just realised that sidewalk:right:kerb=no could also mean a
parallel footpath without kerb but with another physical barrier, like for
example here [3].

[1]:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle#Cycle_lanes_and_bus.2Ftaxi_lanes
[2]:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes#Crossing_with_a_designated_lane_for_bicycles
[3]: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/i-yuqBv2liMpsG4mWNyiew

Regards

Markus
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[John Willis via Tagging]

> On Oct 22, 2019, at 2:18 AM, Jan Michel  wrote:
> 
> foot:lanes = ||designated (allowing foot access to this lane)

Thanks for the tagging example! ^__^
 have never tagged lanes before. 

Is "foot:lanes" An established value? 
Or is that what we are discussing?  

Javbw 

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21. Oct 2019, at 21:34, Markus  wrote:
> 
> 
> It isn't a nuance of one English dictionary.


+1
if there are nuances, I would see them between this shared lane for pedestrians 
and motorvehicles and no footway marking at all (sidewalk=no), not between a 
sidewalk and the shared lane.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Markus]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 at 18:14, Tobias Knerr  wrote:
>
> In general, I don't think the definition of OSM keys should
> automatically duplicate all nuances of the English dictionary,
> especially ones that many non-native speakers will be unaware of.

It isn't a nuance of one English dictionary. I've checked definitions
of a sidewalk in a few other languages (German, French, Spanish,
Italian, Serbo-Croatian, Swedish, Chinese and Japanese) – they mention
either that a sidewalk is raised [1][2][3][4][5], usually raised [6],
usually about 10 cm raised [7] or structurally divided from the
roadway [8].

Besides, the US Federal Highway Administration (FHWA) differentiates
between sidewalks, pedestrian lanes and shoulders [9]:

"Sidewalks are physically separated from the roadway by a curb or
unpaved buffer space." [9, p. 82]

"Pedestrian lanes provide interim or temporary pedestrian
accommodation on roadways lacking sidewalks. They are not intended to
be an alternative to sidewalks and often will fill short gaps between
other higher quality facilities." [9, p. 102].

[1]: https://www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/Buergersteig
[2]: https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/trottoir/79993
[3]: 
https://www.dizionario-italiano.it/dizionario-italiano.php?parola=marciapiede
[4]: https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/人行道
[5]: https://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Тротоар
[6]: https://dle.rae.es/?id=0NdwO9h
[7]: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trottoar
[8]: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/歩道
[9]: 
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/bicycle_pedestrian/publications/small_towns/fhwahep17024_lg.pdf

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Jan Michel]

On 21.10.19 13:02, John Willis via Tagging wrote:

We can all imagine a bus lane, a turn lane, a cycle lane, and whatever a "pedestrian 
lane" might be in the road. It's part of the road. It's marked with a (painted) line 
to separate one from the other. The lane feels like part of the road. The green lanes I 
deal with in Japan are clearly part of the road. I don't know how to map them as a lane, 
but it is clearly a lane, and not a sidewalk.


Representing the lane as a lane is quite simple using the established 
lane tagging scheme, e.g. on a oneway road with two vehicle lanes and a 
pedestrian lane to the right:


lanes = 2  (counts only wide lanes for motor_vehicles)
access:lanes = ||no  (prohibit access to the third lane)
foot:lanes = ||designated (allowing foot access to this lane)
width:lanes = 3|3|1.5
colour:lanes = gray|gray|green  (if you like colours...)

These tags can be used to reconstruct the lane structure of the road 
without doubt, but we still have to find a routing engine that is able 
to cope with that...


Jan


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Jan Michel]

On 20.10.19 20:52, Markus wrote:

On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 19:52, Jan Michel  wrote:

I don't see how a 2-3 cm high kerb provides any kind of safety for a
pedestrian.


Not much, but luckily most kerbs (at least those i came across) are
much higher (usually 10 cm and more). They are only lowered at
pedestrian crossings or at driveways. Cars and buses sometimes
accidentally touch kerbs while driving (on narrow roads) and then get
thrown in the other direction. So i'd say that they definitely provide
some safety to pedestrians.


That might be the case for the place where you live. Here is a randomly 
picked street from Frankfurt with what I would call the typical German 
kerb in residential streets:

https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/MB7QKRH0wkXrCicGrK9HpA
(and no, parking on the kerb is not allowed here even though almost all 
cars do it in this street)


They might be a bit higher and more rectangular on major roads, but more 
than 10 cm height is really rare.
Also note that most of the height of the kerb is only because the water 
drain is lower than the road surface.



Jan


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 21. Okt. 2019 um 18:15 Uhr schrieb Tobias Knerr :

> Me too. As I see it, the core of the question comes down to whether the
> OSM data model should put a pedestrian road section without a kerb in
> the same general category as one with a kerb, or whether these should be
> treated as separate concepts.
>
> To me, it makes more sense to consider them as roughly the same thing
> and model the distinction with an additional tag. For most use cases,
> data users can likely handle them very similarly, even though I
> acknowledge that there may be exceptions (such as Markus's example of
> navigation for blind users).



For pedestrian safety this seems to be a serious compromise, likely not a
situation where parents would like their children walking to school if
avoidable.
I'm not sure I would want these lanes to integrate seamlessly and
automatically with existing pedestrian routing.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Tobias Knerr]

On 21.10.19 12:12, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> Though, in regards of software support,  I  my earlier suggestion is better, 
> as no modification on existing software is necessary to understand that a 
> sidewalk without kerb is still for pedestrians and used the same as a 
> sidewalk, regardless of whether in (Oxford) English, one may or may not call 
> this thing "sidewalk".

Me too. As I see it, the core of the question comes down to whether the
OSM data model should put a pedestrian road section without a kerb in
the same general category as one with a kerb, or whether these should be
treated as separate concepts.

To me, it makes more sense to consider them as roughly the same thing
and model the distinction with an additional tag. For most use cases,
data users can likely handle them very similarly, even though I
acknowledge that there may be exceptions (such as Markus's example of
navigation for blind users).

In general, I don't think the definition of OSM keys should
automatically duplicate all nuances of the English dictionary,
especially ones that many non-native speakers will be unaware of.

Tobias

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 at 14:29, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> But the British English technical/legal term is footway, which has also
> found its way into OSM.
>

The Highway Code uses both pavement and footway.  There's probably some
subtle legal
distinction.

>
> And sorry Paul, I cannot remember the Welsh version.
>

That's OK.  I don't speak any Welsh.  Except for one word, which I use to
respond when
somebody asks me if I speak Welsh: "dim."  It can be interpreted as the
Welsh for "no"
or an explanation as to why I can't speak Welsh.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Andy Townsend]

On 21/10/2019 14:14, Paul Allen wrote:


(for the kerb separated way, no idea about the marking separated way)


Me neither.  I'm not sure we have them.



They do exist - I believe that 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/172228211 (or one of the sections to 
the north) is or was like that.  Haven't been there for a while though.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Philip Barnes]

On Monday, 21 October 2019, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 at 08:23, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > while I am not, I’m pretty sure the British term is pavement, not sidewalk
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.  It's as idiotic as us Brits calling underpants "pants"  because the
> sidewalk is paved
> but the road is also paved so both are pavements.  But that's what we do.

But the British English technical/legal term is footway, which has also found 
its way into OSM.

You will often see signs warning of no footway for .

And sorry Paul, I cannot remember the Welsh version.

Phil (trigpoint)

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 at 08:23, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> while I am not, I’m pretty sure the British term is pavement, not sidewalk



Yes.  It's as idiotic as us Brits calling underpants "pants"  because the
sidewalk is paved
but the road is also paved so both are pavements.  But that's what we do.

However, in some dialects it is also known as a causeway.  Probably
harkening back
to the original French term meaning of route or highway.

(for the kerb separated way, no idea about the marking separated way)
>

Me neither.  I'm not sure we have them.  I can't find a mention of them in
the Highway
Code (it's possible I missed it).  The section that I would expect them to
be in,
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/multi-lane-carriageways.html
it just has cycle lanes (rule 140) and bus lanes (rule 141).

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 21. Okt. 2019 um 12:15 Uhr schrieb Tobias Zwick :

> Shoulders are a common feature on many roads. And the tagging for this is
> already established. Maybe a different way to tag kerb-less sidewalks thus
> would then be
>
> shoulder=right
> shoulder:right:access=foot
> (or access no and ...:foot=designated?)
> shoulder:right:width=1
>



I would be careful with adding a generic access=no to shoulders, because
special types of vehicles or in certain conditions often are allowed to go
on the shoulder (e.g. bicycles).
The foot=designated tag as a lane tag makes sense (differentiation between
shoulders with general access for pedestrians vs. shoulders dedicated to
pedestrians. For the swiss example, vehicles are allowed to drive on the
lane anyway (which makes it less a "shoulder" I guess).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[John Willis via Tagging]

> On Oct 21, 2019, at 3:40 PM, Mateusz Konieczny  
> wrote:
> 
> There is no kerb or other barrier at all, but still it's obviously a sidewalk.

I agree with you that this is is a sidewalk. 

I spoke too quickly when I said that all sidewalks have kerbs. There is clear 
delineation that there is a separate, yet adjacent way for people, even though 
there is no kerb. Sidewalks always have some kind of physical barrier (a raised 
kerb or a kerb barrier), a materials change, or **some physical 
representation** that it is "not part of the road".

Lanes always imply that you are "part of the road". That you are "in the road". 
A cycle path and a cycle lane are very distinct, in all their forms, and this 
is the difference. 

We can all imagine a bus lane, a turn lane, a cycle lane, and whatever a 
"pedestrian lane" might be in the road. It's part of the road. It's marked with 
a (painted) line to separate one from the other. The lane feels like part of 
the road. The green lanes I deal with in Japan are clearly part of the road. I 
don't know how to map them as a lane, but it is clearly a lane, and not a 
sidewalk. 

Good luck with working this out. 

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Tobias Zwick]

Shoulders are a common feature on many roads. And the tagging for this is 
already established. Maybe a different way to tag kerb-less sidewalks thus 
would then be 

shoulder=right
shoulder:right:access=foot
(or access no and ...:foot=designated?)
shoulder:right:width=1

Though, in regards of software support,  I  my earlier suggestion is better, as 
no modification on existing software is necessary to understand that a sidewalk 
without kerb is still for pedestrians and used the same as a sidewalk, 
regardless of whether in (Oxford) English, one may or may not call this thing 
"sidewalk".

 (Existing) software will treat shoulders primarily as a feature relevant for 
cars.

Tobias 

On October 21, 2019 9:40:03 AM GMT+02:00, Joseph Eisenberg 
 wrote:
>“Sidewalk” is North American English, but it’s used because the
>British term is “pavement”, which is confusing due to its dual
>meaning. As a North American I would expect it to be separated from
>the road by a curb (kerb) or a strip of grass.
>
>Oxford dictionaries definition, Pavement:
>"1. British A raised paved or asphalted path for pedestrians at the
>side of a road.
>- ‘he fell and hit his head on the pavement’
>- North American term:   sidewalk"
>https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/pavement
>
>Wikipedia claims:
>"... normally separated from the vehicular section by a curb. There
>may also be a median strip or road verge (a strip of vegetation..."
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk
>
>These definitions fit my impression, as an American, that a "sidewalk"
>is a separate feature, not part of the same paved road surface as the
>main lanes of the highway.
>
>If there's just a painted line, we would normally call the space
>between the line and the edge of the asphalt "the shoulder" of the
>road in a rural area, or it can also be a "bike lane" if it's wide
>enough and there are certain markings.
>
>So I'm in favor of a new key like pedestrian_lane=right/left/both,
>rather than calling these a type of sidewalk
>
>- Joseph Eisenberg
>
>On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 3:51 PM Mateusz Konieczny
> wrote:
>>
>> 20 Oct 2019, 19:08 by selfishseaho...@gmail.com:
>>>
>>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 12:42, Tobias Zwick 
>wrote:


 How about:

 sidewalk=right
 sidewalk:right:kerb=no
>>>
>>>
>>> I dislike using these tags for pedestrian lanes for the following
>>> reasons (sorry if i repeat myself):
>>>
>>> * It doesn't make sense: if it doesn't have a kerb (or any other
>>> physical barrier) it isn't a sidewalk.
>>
>> I am curious about opinion of a native speaker
>> of British English.
>>
>> Are you maybe one?
>>
>> (Sorry for poor phrasing here,
>> I tried to make it less aggressive and failed)
>>>
>>> * Blind people are able to make out a sidewalk, but not a pedestrian
>lane.
>>
>> No one argues against tagging this info.
>> We only disagree how it should be tagged.
>>>
>>> * It's misleading: Data users may not know the tag
>>> sidewalk:right:kerb=no and thus may make wrong assumptions. For
>>> example, a navigation application may guide a pedestrian along a
>route
>>> with only pedestrian lanes instead of safer route with sidewalks.
>>
>> And with a new incompatible tag
>> routing software may guide along
>> road without even such lane, instead of
>> using route where at least pedestrian
>> lanes are present.
>>
>> In both cases routing software would
>> benefit from an upgrade.
>>>
>>>
>>> * pedestrian_lane= is simpler for mappers and data
>users.
>>
>> Depends on whatever you consider
>> it as a low quality sidewalk or
>> a separate feature.
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
>On 10/21/19, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>>> On 21. Oct 2019, at 08:51, Mateusz Konieczny
>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am curious about opinion of a native speaker
>>> of British English.
>>
>>
>> while I am not, I’m pretty sure the British term is pavement, not
>sidewalk
>> (for the kerb separated way, no idea about the marking separated way)
>>
>> We had deliberately chosen the word sidewalk for OpenStreetMap
>tagging
>> because of the ambiguity of ”pavement “
>>
>> Cheers Martin
>> ___
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>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

“Sidewalk” is North American English, but it’s used because the
British term is “pavement”, which is confusing due to its dual
meaning. As a North American I would expect it to be separated from
the road by a curb (kerb) or a strip of grass.

Oxford dictionaries definition, Pavement:
"1. British A raised paved or asphalted path for pedestrians at the
side of a road.
- ‘he fell and hit his head on the pavement’
- North American term:   sidewalk"
https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/pavement

Wikipedia claims:
"... normally separated from the vehicular section by a curb. There
may also be a median strip or road verge (a strip of vegetation..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk

These definitions fit my impression, as an American, that a "sidewalk"
is a separate feature, not part of the same paved road surface as the
main lanes of the highway.

If there's just a painted line, we would normally call the space
between the line and the edge of the asphalt "the shoulder" of the
road in a rural area, or it can also be a "bike lane" if it's wide
enough and there are certain markings.

So I'm in favor of a new key like pedestrian_lane=right/left/both,
rather than calling these a type of sidewalk

- Joseph Eisenberg

On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 3:51 PM Mateusz Konieczny
 wrote:
>
> 20 Oct 2019, 19:08 by selfishseaho...@gmail.com:
>>
>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 12:42, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> How about:
>>>
>>> sidewalk=right
>>> sidewalk:right:kerb=no
>>
>>
>> I dislike using these tags for pedestrian lanes for the following
>> reasons (sorry if i repeat myself):
>>
>> * It doesn't make sense: if it doesn't have a kerb (or any other
>> physical barrier) it isn't a sidewalk.
>
> I am curious about opinion of a native speaker
> of British English.
>
> Are you maybe one?
>
> (Sorry for poor phrasing here,
> I tried to make it less aggressive and failed)
>>
>> * Blind people are able to make out a sidewalk, but not a pedestrian lane.
>
> No one argues against tagging this info.
> We only disagree how it should be tagged.
>>
>> * It's misleading: Data users may not know the tag
>> sidewalk:right:kerb=no and thus may make wrong assumptions. For
>> example, a navigation application may guide a pedestrian along a route
>> with only pedestrian lanes instead of safer route with sidewalks.
>
> And with a new incompatible tag
> routing software may guide along
> road without even such lane, instead of
> using route where at least pedestrian
> lanes are present.
>
> In both cases routing software would
> benefit from an upgrade.
>>
>>
>> * pedestrian_lane= is simpler for mappers and data users.
>
> Depends on whatever you consider
> it as a low quality sidewalk or
> a separate feature.
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On 10/21/19, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 21. Oct 2019, at 08:51, Mateusz Konieczny 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I am curious about opinion of a native speaker
>> of British English.
>
>
> while I am not, I’m pretty sure the British term is pavement, not sidewalk
> (for the kerb separated way, no idea about the marking separated way)
>
> We had deliberately chosen the word sidewalk for OpenStreetMap tagging
> because of the ambiguity of ”pavement “
>
> Cheers Martin
> ___
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>

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21. Oct 2019, at 08:51, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> I am curious about opinion of a native speaker
> of British English.


while I am not, I’m pretty sure the British term is pavement, not sidewalk (for 
the kerb separated way, no idea about the marking separated way)

We had deliberately chosen the word sidewalk for OpenStreetMap tagging because 
of the ambiguity of ”pavement “

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

20 Oct 2019, 19:08 by selfishseaho...@gmail.com:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 12:42, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
>
>>
>> How about:
>>
>> sidewalk=right
>> sidewalk:right:kerb=no
>>
>
> I dislike using these tags for pedestrian lanes for the following
> reasons (sorry if i repeat myself):
>
>  * It doesn't make sense: if it doesn't have a kerb (or any other
> physical barrier) it isn't a sidewalk.
I am curious about opinion of a native speaker
of British English.

Are you maybe one?

(Sorry for poor phrasing here,
I tried to make it less aggressive and failed)
>  * Blind people are able to make out a sidewalk, but not a pedestrian lane.
>
No one argues against tagging this info.
We only disagree how it should be tagged.
>  * It's misleading: Data users may not know the tag
> sidewalk:right:kerb=no and thus may make wrong assumptions. For
> example, a navigation application may guide a pedestrian along a route
> with only pedestrian lanes instead of safer route with sidewalks.
>
And with a new incompatible tag
routing software may guide along
road without even such lane, instead of
using route where at least pedestrian
lanes are present.

In both cases routing software would
benefit from an upgrade.
>
>  * pedestrian_lane= is simpler for mappers and data users.
>
Depends on whatever you consider
it as a low quality sidewalk or
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

+1 to this tagging scheme.
I strongly prefer new tags for additional
detail over new incompatible ones.
20 Oct 2019, 19:49 by j...@mueschelsoft.de:

> On 20.10.19 12:40, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>
>> I have seen this kind of sidewalk that is just a marked lane in Germany as 
>> well, usually as part of parking lots or larger company grounds.
>>
>> How about:
>>
>> sidewalk=right
>> sidewalk:right:kerb=no
>> sidewalk:right:surface=asphalt
>>
>
> I also prefer this kind of tagging. I don't see a reason to invent a fully 
> new tag for this - it is an area meant just for pedestrians just like a 
> sidewalk. In this way, it's fully backwards compatible, only additional 
> information is added by the tag mentioning the kerb.
>
> For me, a kerb is not a necessary feature of a sidewalk, e.g. here
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Hx17IpF-pZWl6AakpYUc2g
> There is no kerb or other barrier at all, but still it's obviously a sidewalk.
>
> On 19.10.19 21:44, Markus wrote:
>
>> While a sidewalk provides some safety for
>> pedestrians, a pedestrian lanes does not.
>>
>
> I don't see how a 2-3 cm high kerb provides any kind of safety for a 
> pedestrian.
>
>
> On 19.10.19 23:01, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>> or e.g.sidewalk:right=lane
>>
>
> That would be an option, very much alike the tagging for cycleways - but this 
> is a tag that needs to be clearly defined and worked into all the existing 
> tools that make use of sidewalks in one way or the other.
>
>
>
> Jan
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Georg Feddern]

Am 20.10.2019 um 23:23 schrieb Clifford Snow:
I'm not familiar with the laws of the country the picture [1] listed 
in the first post on this thread, but the diagonal yellow lines look 
to me like a don't park here rather than a sidewalk. Even the one 
pedestrian in the picture isn't walking the diagonal yellow lines. Can 
someone confirm that those yellow lines indicate a pedestrian way?


FYI:
https://www.bfu.ch/de/Documents/03_Fuer_Fachpersonen/05_Verkehrstechnik/Empfehlungen/bfu-Grundlagen/Laengsstreifen%20fuer%20Fussgaenger.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_signs_in_Switzerland_and_Liechtenstein 
at 6.19


Regards
Georg

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[John Willis via Tagging]

> On Oct 21, 2019, at 2:08 AM, Markus  wrote:
> 
>  * It doesn't make sense: if it doesn't have a kerb (or any other
> physical barrier) it isn't a sidewalk.

This is the most important information. 

it should be tagged as a “footway lane” or “pedestrian lane” or similar. 


Javbw

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Volker Schmidt]

I think in bicycle-OSM we have kind of an tacitly agreed approach: bicycle
lanes (divided from motorised traffic by a painted line) are generally
mapped on the road way whereas separate parallel cycleways are tagged
either on the road way or as separate way, with the former often being the
first, fast mapping and the latter being considered the more advanced
mapping.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2019, 23:24 Clifford Snow,  wrote:

> I'm not familiar with the laws of the country the picture [1] listed in
> the first post on this thread, but the diagonal yellow lines look to me
> like a don't park here rather than a sidewalk. Even the one pedestrian in
> the picture isn't walking the diagonal yellow lines. Can someone confirm
> that those yellow lines indicate a pedestrian way?
>
> The second concern I'd like to raise is the two not exactly compatible
> methods we have for mapping sidewalks. In the original method, sidewalks
> were mapped as attributes of streets. If the goal is to map sidewalks as an
> attribute of streets, then yes mapping them as a Marcus proposes, 
> pedestrian_lane= or as Martin points out, sidewalk:right=lane would be appropriate.
>
> However, since the introduction of mapping sidewalks as separate ways was
> introduced, shared use with a street will require thinking about not only
> how to tag, but also how the geometry is connected. The purpose of mapping
> sidewalks as separate ways is to allow pedestrian routing. If pedestrians
> share the street how should they be mapped. I'd probably show the sidewalk
> connecting to the street to the shared section. The connection would
> include kerb ramps and tactile pads that exist. I'd like to add that I
> don't see a civil engineer ever designing such an unsafe arrangement, but
> then, my city is just now starting to fix all of their crappy kerb cuts
> that they installed a decade or so before. I should add, I've switched over
> to mapping sidewalks as separate ways, after tagging all of the streets
> with sidewalk=left/right/both :-)
>
> Best,
> Clifford
>
> [1]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pedestrian_lane.jpg
>
> On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 11:52 AM Markus  wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 19:52, Jan Michel  wrote:
>> >
>> > I also prefer this kind of tagging. I don't see a reason to invent a
>> > fully new tag for this - it is an area meant just for pedestrians just
>> > like a sidewalk. [...]
>>
>> I don't know how it is elsewhere, but in Switzerland vehicles are
>> allowed to drive on the pedestrian lane as long as pedestrians aren't
>> impeded. However, they aren't allowed to drive on sidewalks. (Aside
>> from the fact that it's not really possible.) Therefore, "an area
>> meant just for pedestrians just like a sidewalk" isn't true here.
>>
>> > For me, a kerb is not a necessary feature of a sidewalk, e.g. here
>> > https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Hx17IpF-pZWl6AakpYUc2g
>> > There is no kerb or other barrier at all, but still it's obviously a
>> > sidewalk.
>>
>> I wouldn't call that a sidewalk and thus wouldn't tag it sidewalk=*.
>>
>> > I don't see how a 2-3 cm high kerb provides any kind of safety for a
>> > pedestrian.
>>
>> Not much, but luckily most kerbs (at least those i came across) are
>> much higher (usually 10 cm and more). They are only lowered at
>> pedestrian crossings or at driveways. Cars and buses sometimes
>> accidentally touch kerbs while driving (on narrow roads) and then get
>> thrown in the other direction. So i'd say that they definitely provide
>> some safety to pedestrians.
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
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> www.snowandsnow.us
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Clifford Snow]

I'm not familiar with the laws of the country the picture [1] listed in the
first post on this thread, but the diagonal yellow lines look to me like a
don't park here rather than a sidewalk. Even the one pedestrian in the
picture isn't walking the diagonal yellow lines. Can someone confirm that
those yellow lines indicate a pedestrian way?

The second concern I'd like to raise is the two not exactly compatible
methods we have for mapping sidewalks. In the original method, sidewalks
were mapped as attributes of streets. If the goal is to map sidewalks as an
attribute of streets, then yes mapping them as a Marcus proposes,
pedestrian_lane=https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pedestrian_lane.jpg

On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 11:52 AM Markus  wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 19:52, Jan Michel  wrote:
> >
> > I also prefer this kind of tagging. I don't see a reason to invent a
> > fully new tag for this - it is an area meant just for pedestrians just
> > like a sidewalk. [...]
>
> I don't know how it is elsewhere, but in Switzerland vehicles are
> allowed to drive on the pedestrian lane as long as pedestrians aren't
> impeded. However, they aren't allowed to drive on sidewalks. (Aside
> from the fact that it's not really possible.) Therefore, "an area
> meant just for pedestrians just like a sidewalk" isn't true here.
>
> > For me, a kerb is not a necessary feature of a sidewalk, e.g. here
> > https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Hx17IpF-pZWl6AakpYUc2g
> > There is no kerb or other barrier at all, but still it's obviously a
> > sidewalk.
>
> I wouldn't call that a sidewalk and thus wouldn't tag it sidewalk=*.
>
> > I don't see how a 2-3 cm high kerb provides any kind of safety for a
> > pedestrian.
>
> Not much, but luckily most kerbs (at least those i came across) are
> much higher (usually 10 cm and more). They are only lowered at
> pedestrian crossings or at driveways. Cars and buses sometimes
> accidentally touch kerbs while driving (on narrow roads) and then get
> thrown in the other direction. So i'd say that they definitely provide
> some safety to pedestrians.
>
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>


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Markus]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 19:52, Jan Michel  wrote:
>
> I also prefer this kind of tagging. I don't see a reason to invent a
> fully new tag for this - it is an area meant just for pedestrians just
> like a sidewalk. [...]

I don't know how it is elsewhere, but in Switzerland vehicles are
allowed to drive on the pedestrian lane as long as pedestrians aren't
impeded. However, they aren't allowed to drive on sidewalks. (Aside
from the fact that it's not really possible.) Therefore, "an area
meant just for pedestrians just like a sidewalk" isn't true here.

> For me, a kerb is not a necessary feature of a sidewalk, e.g. here
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Hx17IpF-pZWl6AakpYUc2g
> There is no kerb or other barrier at all, but still it's obviously a
> sidewalk.

I wouldn't call that a sidewalk and thus wouldn't tag it sidewalk=*.

> I don't see how a 2-3 cm high kerb provides any kind of safety for a
> pedestrian.

Not much, but luckily most kerbs (at least those i came across) are
much higher (usually 10 cm and more). They are only lowered at
pedestrian crossings or at driveways. Cars and buses sometimes
accidentally touch kerbs while driving (on narrow roads) and then get
thrown in the other direction. So i'd say that they definitely provide
some safety to pedestrians.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Jan Michel]

On 20.10.19 12:40, Tobias Zwick wrote:

I have seen this kind of sidewalk that is just a marked lane in Germany as 
well, usually as part of parking lots or larger company grounds.

How about:

sidewalk=right
sidewalk:right:kerb=no
sidewalk:right:surface=asphalt


I also prefer this kind of tagging. I don't see a reason to invent a 
fully new tag for this - it is an area meant just for pedestrians just 
like a sidewalk. In this way, it's fully backwards compatible, only 
additional information is added by the tag mentioning the kerb.


For me, a kerb is not a necessary feature of a sidewalk, e.g. here
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Hx17IpF-pZWl6AakpYUc2g
There is no kerb or other barrier at all, but still it's obviously a 
sidewalk.


On 19.10.19 21:44, Markus wrote:
> While a sidewalk provides some safety for
> pedestrians, a pedestrian lanes does not.

I don't see how a 2-3 cm high kerb provides any kind of safety for a 
pedestrian.



On 19.10.19 23:01, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

or e.g.sidewalk:right=lane


That would be an option, very much alike the tagging for cycleways - but 
this is a tag that needs to be clearly defined and worked into all the 
existing tools that make use of sidewalks in one way or the other.




Jan


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Markus]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 12:24, Georg Feddern  wrote:
>
> Why not in analogy to cycleway=track|lane|...
> sidewalk=track|lane|...

This would require a huge amount of retagging. (There are currently
over 1.5 millions uses of sidewalk=*.)

On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 19:11, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
> We have a widely used scheme for tagging cycle lanes/paths on the road way:
> cycleway=lane|track with variants.
> Extrapolating from that for the pedestrian "lane" seems obvious to me:
> sidewalk=lane (plus variants).
> For separate sidewalks there is
> sidewalk=yes (plus variants)
>
> Why invent something different?

"yes" isn't the only value of sidewalk=*, there's also "right",
"left", "both", "no" (plus "none") and "separate". [1] This isn't
compatible with sidewalk=lane.

Why not inventing something different for a different feature? :)

[1]: As well as some less useful values like "this" (156 uses!?),
"bad", "both;right", "right;none", "10" or "forest". :D

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Markus]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 12:42, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
>
> How about:
>
> sidewalk=right
> sidewalk:right:kerb=no

I dislike using these tags for pedestrian lanes for the following
reasons (sorry if i repeat myself):

  * It doesn't make sense: if it doesn't have a kerb (or any other
physical barrier) it isn't a sidewalk.

  * Blind people are able to make out a sidewalk, but not a pedestrian lane.

  * It's misleading: Data users may not know the tag
sidewalk:right:kerb=no and thus may make wrong assumptions. For
example, a navigation application may guide a pedestrian along a route
with only pedestrian lanes instead of safer route with sidewalks.

  * pedestrian_lane= is simpler for mappers and data users.

  * The distinction between physical separation or road markings is
already made for cycleways.

As sidewalk:right:kerb=no sidewalk:left:kerb=no has only been used 4
and 9 times respectively, almost no retagging were required.

> The most important thing is to tag whether there is a sidewalk or not. 
> Regardless of whether it has a keen [kerb] or not.

I disagree: as already written, a sidewalk offers some safety for
pedestrians because of the kerb, while a pedestrian lane doesn't.

Regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Volker Schmidt]

We have a widely used scheme for tagging cycle lanes/paths on the road way:
cycleway=lane|track with variants.
Extrapolating from that for the pedestrian "lane" seems obvious to me:
sidewalk=lane (plus variants).
For separate sidewalks there is
sidewalk=yes (plus variants)

Why invent something different?

On Sun, 20 Oct 2019, 12:42 Tobias Zwick,  wrote:

> I have seen this kind of sidewalk that is just a marked lane in Germany as
> well, usually as part of parking lots or larger company grounds.
>
> How about:
>
> sidewalk=right
> sidewalk:right:kerb=no
> sidewalk:right:surface=asphalt
>
> The most important thing is to tag whether there is a sidewalk or not.
> Regardless of whether it has a keen or not.
>
> According to taginfo, sidewalk:right:kerb is already used a few times:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sidewalk%3Aright%3Akerb#overview
>
> Tobias
>
> On October 20, 2019 8:39:14 AM GMT+02:00, John Willis via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On Oct 20, 2019, at 4:44 AM, Markus 
> >wrote:
> >>
> >> However i think that a sidewalk requires a physical separation to the
> >> roadway
> >
> >
> >I agree with you, and I tag all separated standard sidewalks as
> >“sidewalks” (iD preset).
> >
> >however, there are a lot of narrow roads in Japan where the side of the
> >road (between the white lane border line and the barrier wall along the
> >road) is painted with a (thin) green stripe, and is considered a
> >pedestrian path - usually around schools where children walk. The
> >infrastructure in the area is very old, and they cannot widen the roads
> >to be safer, so they paint the green line on to remind drivers to be
> >safe and keep the pedestrians on one side. this is only around schools
> >with narrow roads. New roads all have separated sidewalks, so no
> >painted area is necessary.
> >
> >I tag the green line as a highway=path and add a note=* to the way.
> >
> >One example I have seen is much larger, and is a new “lane” created by
> >converting a 2-way road to 1-way and giving the margin to pedestrians.
> >https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/667338935
> >.
> >
> >I do not think this is ideal, but it does properly map the marking and
> >the routing that should be used for pedestrians. usually many roads in
> >the area are narrow, and the designated way is best.
> >
> >If some method is standardized, I will correct my mapping.
> >
> >Note: these are not the blue cycle-lanes or cycle arrows in the road
> >found on many narrow high traffic roads.
> >
> >
> >Javbw
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Tobias Zwick]

I have seen this kind of sidewalk that is just a marked lane in Germany as 
well, usually as part of parking lots or larger company grounds.

How about:

sidewalk=right
sidewalk:right:kerb=no
sidewalk:right:surface=asphalt 

The most important thing is to tag whether there is a sidewalk or not. 
Regardless of whether it has a keen or not.

According to taginfo, sidewalk:right:kerb is already used a few times:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sidewalk%3Aright%3Akerb#overview

Tobias 

On October 20, 2019 8:39:14 AM GMT+02:00, John Willis via Tagging 
 wrote:
>
>
>> On Oct 20, 2019, at 4:44 AM, Markus 
>wrote:
>> 
>> However i think that a sidewalk requires a physical separation to the
>> roadway
>
>
>I agree with you, and I tag all separated standard sidewalks as
>“sidewalks” (iD preset).
>
>however, there are a lot of narrow roads in Japan where the side of the
>road (between the white lane border line and the barrier wall along the
>road) is painted with a (thin) green stripe, and is considered a
>pedestrian path - usually around schools where children walk. The
>infrastructure in the area is very old, and they cannot widen the roads
>to be safer, so they paint the green line on to remind drivers to be
>safe and keep the pedestrians on one side. this is only around schools
>with narrow roads. New roads all have separated sidewalks, so no
>painted area is necessary. 
>
>I tag the green line as a highway=path and add a note=* to the way. 
>
>One example I have seen is much larger, and is a new “lane” created by
>converting a 2-way road to 1-way and giving the margin to pedestrians. 
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/667338935
>.
>
>I do not think this is ideal, but it does properly map the marking and
>the routing that should be used for pedestrians. usually many roads in
>the area are narrow, and the designated way is best. 
>
>If some method is standardized, I will correct my mapping. 
>
>Note: these are not the blue cycle-lanes or cycle arrows in the road
>found on many narrow high traffic roads. 
>
>
>Javbw

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Georg Feddern]

Am 20.10.2019 um 11:24 schrieb Markus:

On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 at 23:02, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:

+1, or e.g. sidewalk:right=lane
there are a few instances tagged like this: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/sidewalk%3Aright=lane

18 out of 30 are additionally tagged sidewalk=right. I think it's
better to keep "sidewalk" out, otherwise it gets too confusing.


Why not in analogy to cycleway=track|lane|...
sidewalk=track|lane|...
sidewalk=yes (as synonym for kerb) was thought too short ... again.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Markus]

On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 at 23:02, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
> +1, or e.g. sidewalk:right=lane
> there are a few instances tagged like this: 
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/sidewalk%3Aright=lane

18 out of 30 are additionally tagged sidewalk=right. I think it's
better to keep "sidewalk" out, otherwise it gets too confusing.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2019 at 08:41, John Willis via Tagging
 wrote:
>
> I tag the green line as a highway=path and add a note=* to the way.
>
> One example I have seen is much larger, and is a new “lane” created by 
> converting a 2-way road to 1-way and giving the margin to pedestrians.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/667338935.

Mapping a lane as a separate way isn't ideal, because this separates
the lane from the rest of the roadway, leading to routing problems:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/directions?engine=fossgis_osrm_foot=36.40695%2C139.33347%3B36.40655%2C139.33423

Cheers

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[John Willis via Tagging]

> On Oct 20, 2019, at 4:44 AM, Markus  wrote:
> 
> However i think that a sidewalk requires a physical separation to the
> roadway


I agree with you, and I tag all separated standard sidewalks as “sidewalks” (iD 
preset).

however, there are a lot of narrow roads in Japan where the side of the road 
(between the white lane border line and the barrier wall along the road) is 
painted with a (thin) green stripe, and is considered a pedestrian path - 
usually around schools where children walk. The infrastructure in the area is 
very old, and they cannot widen the roads to be safer, so they paint the green 
line on to remind drivers to be safe and keep the pedestrians on one side. this 
is only around schools with narrow roads. New roads all have separated 
sidewalks, so no painted area is necessary. 

I tag the green line as a highway=path and add a note=* to the way. 

One example I have seen is much larger, and is a new “lane” created by 
converting a 2-way road to 1-way and giving the margin to pedestrians. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/667338935 
.

I do not think this is ideal, but it does properly map the marking and the 
routing that should be used for pedestrians. usually many roads in the area are 
narrow, and the designated way is best. 

If some method is standardized, I will correct my mapping. 

Note: these are not the blue cycle-lanes or cycle arrows in the road found on 
many narrow high traffic roads. 


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Oct 2019, at 21:48, Markus  wrote:
> 
> The tag i used was
> pedestrian_lane=


+1, or e.g. sidewalk:right=lane
there are a few instances tagged like this: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/sidewalk%3Aright=lane

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[Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

[Markus]

Hello everyone

I have a disagreement with another mapper (changeset comments in
German [1]) regarding the mapping of pedestrian lanes, i.e. lanes on a
roadway reserved for pedestrians (example [2]), and would like to hear
more opinions.

[1]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/75900746
[2]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Pedestrian_lane.jpg

The other mapper thinks that pedestrian lanes should be tagged like
sidewalks (pavements), because sidewalk=* or footway=sidewalk just
means a footpath along a road, and that the absence of a kerb can be
tagged [sidewalk::]kerb=no.

However i think that a sidewalk requires a physical separation to the
roadway (usually a kerb). While a sidewalk provides some safety for
pedestrians, a pedestrian lanes does not. In order that data consumers
know that it may be less safe for pedestrians to use a road with a
pedestrian lane compared to a road with a sidewalk, i think it is
important to tag pedestrian lanes differently. (The tag i used was
pedestrian_lane=). Besides, the distinction between
physical separation or road markings is already made for cycleways: if
there is a physical separation we tag it cycleway=track, if there are
only road markings cycleway=lane. So it only seems logical to also
make the same distinction for sidewalks and pedestrian lanes.

Thank you in advance for your replies.

Best regards and have a nice Sunday,

Markus

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