Re: [Tagging] Often seen tagging problems regarding junctions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 05.11.2015 um 13:41 schrieb Paul Johnson :
> 
> Well, if it's controlled, then it wouldn't be a zebra crossing, by definition.


right, I was referring to zebra road markings that come into effect in case the 
traffic lights are turned off for some reason...


cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Often seen tagging problems regarding junctions

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 1:02 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > Am 01.11.2015 um 12:30 schrieb Richard Mann <
> richard.mann.westoxf...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > I use highway=footway+crossing=X+crossing_ref=Y on *ways* (as well as
> placing a wiki-compliant node at the intersection of the crossing way and
> the road way).
> >
> > This makes it (relatively) easy to draw a Zebra crossing, correctly
> orientated along the way.
>
>
> I use the combination of highway =crossing and crossing=uncontrolled for
> zebra crossings that are not controlled by traffic lights. On a node on the
> road-highway way.
>

Well, if it's controlled, then it wouldn't be a zebra crossing, by
definition.  It'd be a pelican or toucan crossing (depending on whether or
not it allows bicycles to use it), or a puffin crossing (if it's a little
smarter than "push button to receive bacon/signal").
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Re: [Tagging] Often seen tagging problems regarding junctions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-11-02 8:15 GMT+01:00 Gerd Petermann :

> okay, what do you use when there are traffic lights at a zebra crossing?
> Or let's say what would you recommend?
>


I use the traffic lights value. It is very common here (if not all
crossings are like that) to have zebra markings at traffic light controlled
pedestrian crossings. Unless your router knows whether the traffic lights
are on or off, it doesn't matter, and even if you knew the lights were off,
they still  might have a similar meaning then a zebra crossing (i.e. with
the yellow light flashing).

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Often seen tagging problems regarding junctions

[Richard Mann]

It's been the advice for a long time to use a node. Some data users will
expect a node.

I use both a way and a node, because I can make good use of the way.

Looks like someone has set up a preset that does the way and not the node.
That's not ideal, because some data users will expect the node to be marked.

The normal response is to leave data users to figure it out.

Richard
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Re: [Tagging] Often seen tagging problems regarding junctions

[Gerd Petermann]

thanks for this example. I think it illustrates my problem very well.

The footways (e.g. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/372661072)<https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/372661072>
 are tagged

[http://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/osm_logo_256-835a859acf0d378e1d14e88b15e7b4b95211ccd41a2c061b1629cfbbb8deb697.png]<https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/372661072>

OpenStreetMap
OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use 
under an open license.
Weitere Informationen...<https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/372661072>



crossing=zebra
footway=crossing
highway=footway


I think the wiki says that the tag crossing=zebra is not for the way,

but for the nodes

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3762107862 and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3762107871

and those nodes should be tagged with highway=crossing, crossing=* and maybe 
with crossing_ref=*

I would not say that this is better, but it is very often used.


Gerd



Von: johnw 
Gesendet: Montag, 2. November 2015 08:31
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Often seen tagging problems regarding junctions


This makes it (relatively) easy to draw a Zebra crossing, correctly orientated 
along the way.


I use the combination of highway =crossing and crossing=uncontrolled for zebra 
crossings that are not controlled by traffic lights. On a node on the 
road-highway way.


I have been using the Pedestrian crosswalk preset in iD (highway=footway 
footway=crossing crossing=zebra) on a way representing the crosswalk. it shares 
node(s) with the road(s) it is crossing, so I assume that a crossing on the 
node itself is not necessary - right?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/35.70553/139.75446
[http://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/osm_logo_256-835a859acf0d378e1d14e88b15e7b4b95211ccd41a2c061b1629cfbbb8deb697.png]<https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/35.70553/139.75446>

OpenStreetMap
Welcome to OpenStreetMap! OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by 
people like you and free to use under an open license. Learn More Start Mapping
Weitere 
Informationen...<https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/35.70553/139.75446>


Part of my cleanup of Tokyo Dome City, so please correct me if I'm doing it 
wrong.

Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] Often seen tagging problems regarding junctions

[johnw]

>> 
>> This makes it (relatively) easy to draw a Zebra crossing, correctly 
>> orientated along the way.
> 
> 
> I use the combination of highway =crossing and crossing=uncontrolled for 
> zebra crossings that are not controlled by traffic lights. On a node on the 
> road-highway way.
> 

I have been using the Pedestrian crosswalk preset in iD (highway=footway 
footway=crossing crossing=zebra) on a way representing the crosswalk. it shares 
node(s) with the road(s) it is crossing, so I assume that a crossing on the 
node itself is not necessary - right?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/35.70553/139.75446 


Part of my cleanup of Tokyo Dome City, so please correct me if I’m doing it 
wrong.  

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Re: [Tagging] Often seen tagging problems regarding junctions

[Gerd Petermann]

okay, what do you use when there are traffic lights at a zebra crossing? 
Or let's say what would you recommend?

My (current) understanding is that the zebra crossing is a "fall back" 
in case that the traffic lights are not working, so I'd say they are not
important. 
The problem: Aerial images show the zebra crossing very well,
traffic lights are nearly invisible.

ciao,
Gerd



Von: Martin Koppenhoefer 
Gesendet: Montag, 2. November 2015 08:02
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Often seen tagging problems regarding junctions

sent from a phone

> Am 01.11.2015 um 12:30 schrieb Richard Mann 
> :
>
> I use highway=footway+crossing=X+crossing_ref=Y on *ways* (as well as placing 
> a wiki-compliant node at the intersection of the crossing way and the road 
> way).
>
> This makes it (relatively) easy to draw a Zebra crossing, correctly 
> orientated along the way.


I use the combination of highway =crossing and crossing=uncontrolled for zebra 
crossings that are not controlled by traffic lights. On a node on the 
road-highway way.


cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Often seen tagging problems regarding junctions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 01.11.2015 um 12:30 schrieb Richard Mann 
> :
> 
> I use highway=footway+crossing=X+crossing_ref=Y on *ways* (as well as placing 
> a wiki-compliant node at the intersection of the crossing way and the road 
> way). 
> 
> This makes it (relatively) easy to draw a Zebra crossing, correctly 
> orientated along the way.


I use the combination of highway =crossing and crossing=uncontrolled for zebra 
crossings that are not controlled by traffic lights. On a node on the 
road-highway way.


cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Often seen tagging problems regarding junctions

[Richard Mann]

I use highway=footway+crossing=X+crossing_ref=Y on *ways* (as well as
placing a wiki-compliant node at the intersection of the crossing way and
the road way).

This makes it (relatively) easy to draw a Zebra crossing, correctly
orientated along the way.

Richard

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Gerd Petermann <
gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>
> while trying to clean up wrong highway=* tags in the OSM database
>
> I noticed a few error patterns. Not sure if I can call it an error when
>
> other people are using tags in a completely different way, but I think
>
> I should report them:
>
>
> 1) the tag highway=crossing is/was used for ways, often instead of
>
> bridge=yes, often at junctions instead of footway=crossing or
> cycleway=crossing
>
> or in addition to them.
>
> I think it happened in the past, so this seem no longer a problem.
>
>
> 2) Some mappers tag a footway that is crossing the road like this:
>
> -  the way:
>
> highway=footway
>
> - the first and last node of the way (both on the sidewalk):
>
> highway=crossing[,crossing=*][,crossing_ref=*]
>
> The advantage of this tagging is that e.g. JOSM shows the
>
> symbol for crossing=traffic_signals at the position where
>
> one would expect the traffic_signal (and maybe the button)
>
>
> 3) nodes with tags like highway=traffic_signals;crossing or
>
> highway=crossing;traffic_signals show that it is not very clear
>
> how to use these tags, I am not even sure if some of the combinations
>
> that Taginfo shows are valid, e.g.
> highway=motorway_junction;traffic_signals
>
>
> The wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtraffic_signals
>
> explains how to tag junctions with highway=traffic_signals,
>
> the wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:crossing
>
> explains the crossing=* tag. What I am missing is a combination of both.
>
> Should I tag crossing=traffic_signals at a junction that has one or more
> nodes
>
> with highway=traffic_signals? Or should I use crossing=controlled instead?
>
> Is a crossing_ref=zebra correct when the junction is controlled by
> traffic_signals?
>
> Should I map highway=stop at a junction with highway=traffic_signals?
>
>
> My understanding is this:
>
> - For the routers, we like to have the information that the junction is
> controlled by
>
> traffic_signals, as this means a potential delay. For routing, we don't
> want to have
>
> several different nodes with highway=crossing or highway=stop ,
> highway=traffic_signals
>
> etc. for a single junction, as it is difficult to sort out which one adds
> more delay.
>
> - For renderers or "completeness" we like to have the position of each
> traffic_sign, each traffic_signal
>
> and each crossing=zebra.
>
>
> If I got that right, a few proposals were made to solve this conflict,
> e.g. relations
>
> or closed ways to collect all elements of one junctions, but none seems to
> be
>
> used often.
>
>
> If anybody thinks that there is a good and correct solution for a complex
> junction in OSM, please
>
> post a link.
>
>
> ciao,
>
> Gerd
>
>
>
>
>
>
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[Tagging] Often seen tagging problems regarding junctions

[Gerd Petermann]

Hi all,


while trying to clean up wrong highway=* tags in the OSM database

I noticed a few error patterns. Not sure if I can call it an error when

other people are using tags in a completely different way, but I think

I should report them:


1) the tag highway=crossing is/was used for ways, often instead of

bridge=yes, often at junctions instead of footway=crossing or cycleway=crossing

or in addition to them.

I think it happened in the past, so this seem no longer a problem.


2) Some mappers tag a footway that is crossing the road like this:

-  the way:

highway=footway

- the first and last node of the way (both on the sidewalk):

highway=crossing[,crossing=*][,crossing_ref=*]

The advantage of this tagging is that e.g. JOSM shows the

symbol for crossing=traffic_signals at the position where

one would expect the traffic_signal (and maybe the button)


3) nodes with tags like highway=traffic_signals;crossing or

highway=crossing;traffic_signals show that it is not very clear

how to use these tags, I am not even sure if some of the combinations

that Taginfo shows are valid, e.g. highway=motorway_junction;traffic_signals


The wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtraffic_signals

explains how to tag junctions with highway=traffic_signals,

the wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:crossing

explains the crossing=* tag. What I am missing is a combination of both.

Should I tag crossing=traffic_signals at a junction that has one or more nodes

with highway=traffic_signals? Or should I use crossing=controlled instead?

Is a crossing_ref=zebra correct when the junction is controlled by 
traffic_signals?

Should I map highway=stop at a junction with highway=traffic_signals?


My understanding is this:

- For the routers, we like to have the information that the junction is 
controlled by

traffic_signals, as this means a potential delay. For routing, we don't want to 
have

several different nodes with highway=crossing or highway=stop , 
highway=traffic_signals

etc. for a single junction, as it is difficult to sort out which one adds more 
delay.

- For renderers or "completeness" we like to have the position of each 
traffic_sign, each traffic_signal

and each crossing=zebra.


If I got that right, a few proposals were made to solve this conflict, e.g. 
relations

or closed ways to collect all elements of one junctions, but none seems to be

used often.


If anybody thinks that there is a good and correct solution for a complex 
junction in OSM, please

post a link.


ciao,

Gerd




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