Re: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 10:39 AM Joseph Eisenberg
wrote:
> > Col or gap (use saddle? And that is in OSM) = a col is the lowest point on a
> > mountain ridge between two peaks.
>
> Yes, "col" is the French word for saddle, a low point on a ridge.
>
> A gap is also usually a saddle (or sometimes a mountainpass=yes on a
> highway, sometimes a valley or gorge)
Around here, the locals use 'pass', 'gap' and 'notch' pretty much
interchangeably and the mountaineers use 'col' as a generic word. (The
locals who aren't into mountaineering might not even know the word.)
"Jimmy Dolan Notch is the col between Twin Mountain and Indian Head."
The mountains around here (which are actually arêtes but only a
geologist cares) have all sorts of nouns in their proper names.
'...berg' ('Wittenberg' never has 'Mountain' postpended by the locals,
no matter what the USGS maps say), '... Mountain', 'Mount ...', '...
Cap', '... Dome', '... Head', '... Knob,' '... Peak', '... Point,'
'... Top' are all common but don't really say anything about the
characteristics, except that the 'Points' tend to lie on the
Escarpment. (Visitors getting their first sight of Blackhead, Black
Dome, and Thomas Cole Mountain frequently remark on how similar they
look, standing side by side.) There are two that are simply named
'High Peak'; the mountaineers find it necessary to distinguish them
and attach the names of nearby features: 'Kaaterskill HIgh Peak',
'Windham High Peak'. Farther north, there are a few that simply have
unique names: the 'Sawteeth' and the 'Gothics' come to mind, and I
never seem to hear anyone append 'Mountain' to those names. The name
'Tahawus' is beginning to displace 'Mount Marcy.'
> Natural=gully sounds fine. I know mountain climbers talk about these
> often, but there isn't a clear distinction from a gully or small
> valley.
As with 'col' and some others, I trace these terms in English largely
to a mountaineering book that Yvon Chouinard wrote in the late 1970s,
which I would argue is what started the modern popularity of ice
climbing. I can't remember ever hearing those terms used by climbers
in, say 1975, but by the 1980's all the climbers were slinging them
about.
> > ravine = A deep narrow steep sided valley.
>
> I would think these could be either natural=gully or natural=valley or
> natural=gorge depending on size?
That's what I do. I tend to do it only if the valley has a distinct
name from any stream that runs in it, partly because I don't have a
good rendering yet for these landforms, and depend on the contour
lines and hill shading in the maps I produce.
> > Fen = one of the main types of wetland, fens are a kind of mire. Tag as a
> > wetland?
>
> wetland=fen is approved, but much less common than wetland=bog - so I
> suspect that many fens are mapped as natural=wetland + wetland=bog -
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:wetland%3Dfen
Around here, I've been assured by a geologist friend that some of the
so-called bogs are in fact fens. For various reasons, around me both
bogs and fens tend to be low-pH blackwater mires, with similar
ecosystems. The acid-tolerant bryophytes, leatherleaf, and cranberry
tend to predominate even in systems with enough nutrients to support a
sedge fen or an alder thicket. I couldn't distinguish bog from fen in
these mires without a detailed drainage study. I suspect that few
mappers would distinguish ombrotrophic from minerotrophic systems, or
a lagg from a fen. So as long as we *have* the tags, knowledgeable
mappers can use them and other mappers can at least identify that the
peatlands are there.
> > tarn = A tarn (or corrie loch) is a mountain lake, pond or pool, formed in a
> > cirque excavated by a glacier. Use OSM lake ???
>
> +1 natural=water +water=lake - if you want, you could add lake=tarn as well?
Sounds good to me. The glacial water forms near me that I find
problematic for tagging are the paternoster lakes, which sometimes
bear names that are simply 'Essex Chain of Lakes', 'Fulton Chain of
Lakes', etc. and the individual ones have singularly uninformative
names like 'First Lake', 'Second Lake', and on up... there's a
'Thirteenth Lake' in one of the chains.
> > Peaks are not necessarily mountains or hills!!!
> > The highest mountain in Australia, Mt Koscciszko is a bump in a bumpy
> > landscape .. it is not a 'peak'.
>
> A natural=peak is any summit or peak; that is, any point that is
> higher than the surroundings. Wikipedia: "A summit is a point on a
> surface that is higher in elevation than all points immediately
> adjacent to it. The topographic terms acme, apex, peak (mountain
> peak), and zenith are synonymous."
This. A 'peak' surely doesn't need to be an isolated formation. Nor
does it need to be a true mountain. In fact, none of the 'Catskill
Mountains' is geologically a mountain. They're all arêtes in a heavily
glaciated, dissected plateau. Nor does a 'peak' need to be
particularly sharp; in fact, one of the 'High Peak's in the Catskills
Re: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags
On 4/21/19, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > Arch = A hole though some feature, usually rock. Covered overhead and to > both sides, open at both ends. This is natural=arch https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Natural_arch - as mentioned by Paul Allen above > archipelago = an island group or island chain place=archipelago - I recently updated this page but it's been in use since 2013 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Darchipelago > basin = The tract of country drained by a river and its tributaries, or > which drains into a particular lake or area. Note need to be careful not to > confuse this with man_made=basin or sea basins. I asked about this a few months ago. Several people were against mapping drainage basins, because the verifiable boundaries can be mapped as natural=ridge, and the others are not verifiable. > Canyon: A gorge, relatively narrow but of considerable size ...(possibly tag > as gorge with > gorge=canyon?) The alternative, already suggested on some non-English pages, would be natural=canyon - used 163 times; or natural=valley with valley=canyon? I would map these as a node or as a linear way that follows the low ground or the waterway > Cap = ??? Misspelling for cape? Or a type of peak? No idea. > Col or gap (use saddle? And that is in OSM) = a col is the lowest point on a > mountain ridge between two peaks. Yes, "col" is the French word for saddle, a low point on a ridge. A gap is also usually a saddle (or sometimes a mountainpass=yes on a highway, sometimes a valley or gorge) > couloir (French: [ku.lwaʁ], "passage" or "corridor"), is a narrow gully with > a steep gradient in a mountainous terrain. Tag as a gully?? Natural=gully sounds fine. I know mountain climbers talk about these often, but there isn't a clear distinction from a gully or small valley. > Depression = A sunken place. Also called sink. The low point of one of these is the opposite of a peak - but usually they are only found in arid areas or karst, since a lake normally forms. We do have the approved tag natural=sinkhole for one common type of depression, which can work for places where a stream disappears underground as well. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dsinkhole Most other sinks and depressions will be the site of an ephemeral lake; eg Badwater in Death Valley, lots of intermittent desert lakes in Australia. > Gully = natural watercourse, especially a hillside, It only carries water > after rain and its sides are generally steep. Usually one of the smallest > branches of a drainage system, and often associated with erosive action. Natural=gully is in use, but not very common. Many could also be mapped as an intermittent stream. If there are steep slopes natural=cliff or natural=earth_bank can be used. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dgully > fjard = (Swedish: fjärd, IPA: [ˈfjæːɖ]) is an inlet formed by the marine > submergence of formerly glaciated valleys and depressions within a rocky > glaciated terrain of low relief. Fjards are characterized by a profile that > is shorter, shallower, and broader than the profile of a fjord. Never heard of this before! Wikipedia says: "A fjard is a large open space of water between groups of islands or mainland in archipelagos. " It's related to the word "fjord". It sounds like this would usually be a natural=strait or perhaps natural=bay? > Fjord ? Not in the data base??? Yet fjard is. Fjords are often tagged as natural=bay plus bay=fjord: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bay%3Dfjord > fumarole =is an opening in a planet's crust which emits steam and gases There are 2 proposals, both used less than 20 times: geological=volcanic_fumarole https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:geological%3Dvolcanic_fumarole natural=fumarole https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/fumarole > massif = a section of a planet's crust that is demarcated by faults or > flexures. In the movement of the crust, a massif tends to retain its > internal structure while being displaced as a whole. The term also refers to > a group of mountains formed by such a structure. This was proposed but abandoned, used less than 20 times: natural=massif I'm not sure how a non-geologist could map one of these. It sounds like they are defined by faults and subsurface rock characteristics that are not really visible? > Mountain = A large natural elevation of the earth’s surface. Note peaks are > different from mountains, see below! Most mountains can be mapped as either a natural=peak (if the named features is a particular peak) or a natural=ridge (if the mountain is a linear feature with several peaks), or natural=volcano sometimes. > mountain_ridge = Use ridge? in OSM already Yes, natural=ridge is approved > Oasis =the combination of a human settlement and a cultivated area (often a > date palm grove) in a desert or semi-desert environment Just a place=village and various types of landuse and
Re: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags
On Sun, 21 Apr 2019 at 01:40, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > Arch = A hole though some feature, usually rock. Covered overhead and to > both sides, open at both ends. > Proposed back in 2013 here https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Natural_arch (and still underway). Used 94 times, once by me. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags
Ok, What I have, mainly from taginfo but a couple from myself, with some rough definitions. I do not advocate all of them, just that most of them exist and there should be some thought given to there tagging. They are: Arch = A hole though some feature, usually rock. Covered overhead and to both sides, open at both ends. archipelago = an island group or island chain basin = The tract of country drained by a river and its tributaries, or which drains into a particular lake or area. Note need to be careful not to confuse this with man_made=basin or sea basins. canyon A gorge, relatively narrow but of considerable size, bounded by steep slopes. It has often been formed by a river cutting through the soft rocks of an arid region; the scantiness of the rainfall prevents denudation of the canyon walls, and so maintains their steepness. The walls of a large canyon, however, rarely approach the vertical, and their irregularity of slope is due to inequalities in the hardness of the rock.(possibly tag as gorge with gorge=canyon?) Cap = ??? Col or gap (use saddle? And that is in OSM) = a col is the lowest point on a mountain ridge between two peaks. couloir (French: [ku.lwaʁ], "passage" or "corridor"), is a narrow gully with a steep gradient in a mountainous terrain. Tag as a gully?? Depression = A sunken place. Gully = natural watercourse, especially a hillside, It only carries water after rain and its sides are generally steep. Usually one of the smallest branches of a drainage system, and often associated with erosive action. fjard = (Swedish: fjärd, IPA: [ˈfjæːɖ]) is an inlet formed by the marine submergence of formerly glaciated valleys and depressions within a rocky glaciated terrain of low relief. Fjards are characterized by a profile that is shorter, shallower, and broader than the profile of a fjord. Fjord ? Not in the data base??? Yet fjard is. fumarole =is an opening in a planet's crust which emits steam and gases massif = a section of a planet's crust that is demarcated by faults or flexures. In the movement of the crust, a massif tends to retain its internal structure while being displaced as a whole. The term also refers to a group of mountains formed by such a structure. Mountain = A large natural elevation of the earth’s surface. Note peaks are different from mountains, see below! mountain_ridge = Use ridge? in OSM already Oasis =the combination of a human settlement and a cultivated area (often a date palm grove) in a or semi-desert environment Plain = tract of country the general surface of which is comparatively flat or slightly undulating. In extent generally not less than 2,500 hectares and sparsely, if at all timbered. floodplain Use the above plain with plain=floodplain??? range A series or line of mountain or hill ridges with or without peaks, in which the crests are relatively narrow. Its minimum length is about 16 kilometres ravine = A deep narrow steep sided valley. thalweg a line connecting the lowest points of successive cross-sections along the course of a valley or river. -- Water related Dry lake, often called a playa in the south western United States. Tag as a lake, intermittent=yes/ephereral=yes??? Fen = one of the main types of wetland, fens are a kind of mire. Tag as a wetland? Sink (geography), also known as an alkali flat or sabkha, a desert basin with no outlet which periodically fills with water to form a temporary lake. Possibly tag as lake, intermittent=yes, ephemeral=yes. tarn = A tarn (or corrie loch) is a mountain lake, pond or pool, formed in a cirque excavated by a glacier. Use OSM lake ??? -- Peaks are not necessarily mountains or hills!!! The highest mountain in Australia, Mt Koscciszko is a bump in a bumpy landscape .. it is not a 'peak'. Yes it is a mountain. So what is a 'peak'? A prominent point that is elevated from its mediate surrounds such that is visible for a good distance from most surrounds. I would call 'chambers Pillar' a peak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chambers_Pillar The problem is rendering ... the present symbol in use is that of mountain. The symbol for a simple peak should show a flat surround with a column rising up to a point and falling back to the flat surround. A mountain or hill with a peak could be tagged with peak=yes and the symbol modified to include a shape column. Note OSMwiki page for natural https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:natural is not presently in alphabetic order so it is harder to find things. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags
> Pass A depression or gap in a range of mountains or hills permitting > easier passage from one side to the other. mountain_pass=yes on a node of the highway or path: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:mountain_pass > Point A raised mass of land that projects over a lower area (water or land). I believe we discussed this a few months ago? It could make sense to have a tag like natural=promontory, but this are somewhat ill-defined. Basically, they are point on a ridge where the ridge line goes from relatively flat to steeply downhill, but it is not a local high point so can't be labeled as a natural=peak. From below it looks a bit like a peak from the right angle; many of these points or promontories are named. I suspect some are mistagged as natural=peak. We would need to write up a proposal page that made it clear when to use natural=peak (and natural=cape) instead of this tag, and what sort of features would qualify. I'd be in favor of using a tag like natural=promontory if the alternative is place=locality. > Head/headland A comparatively high promontory of land projecting into > the sea with a steep face. An un-named head is usually described as a > ‘Headland’ when a specific name is assigned, it becomes a ‘Head’. Use natural=cape for the extreme point of land into the sea along the coastline, natural=cliff for a cliff, possibly natural=peak as well if there is a local high point that is named. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags
For valleys, the tag natural=valley is in use and has a wiki page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural=valley
On 4/19/19, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 at 07:29, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Head/headland A comparatively high promontory of land projecting into
>> the sea with a steep face. An un-named head is usually described as a
>> ‘Headland’ when a specific name is assigned, it becomes a ‘Head’.
>>
>
> Isn't that covered by natural=cape? For small values of "cape."
>
> Also missing, but I (re)raised it a few days ago over on the carto git, is
> natural=valley. In my
> part of the world there are a lot of named valleys. Some are used (by
> humans) in the same
> way other parts of the world use neighbourhood. Others are used to
> designate routes on walks.
> Many are labelled on the OS_OpenData_Streetview layer, so the Ordnance
> Survey feels there is
> some value in identifying them because of local usage. They are
> topographic features that have
> been given names and are used in navigation instructions ("Tina moved to a
> house in Cwm
> Plysgog," "The walk takes you through Cwm Rhew-erwyll [Valley of Frosts]").
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 at 07:29, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Head/headland A comparatively high promontory of land projecting into
> the sea with a steep face. An un-named head is usually described as a
> ‘Headland’ when a specific name is assigned, it becomes a ‘Head’.
>
Isn't that covered by natural=cape? For small values of "cape."
Also missing, but I (re)raised it a few days ago over on the carto git, is
natural=valley. In my
part of the world there are a lot of named valleys. Some are used (by
humans) in the same
way other parts of the world use neighbourhood. Others are used to
designate routes on walks.
Many are labelled on the OS_OpenData_Streetview layer, so the Ordnance
Survey feels there is
some value in identifying them because of local usage. They are
topographic features that have
been given names and are used in navigation instructions ("Tina moved to a
house in Cwm
Plysgog," "The walk takes you through Cwm Rhew-erwyll [Valley of Frosts]").
--
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags
On Fri, 19 Apr 2019 at 16:29, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > Pass A depression or gap in a range of mountains or hills permitting > easier passage from one side to the other. > I've been using the mountain_pass=yes tag, https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:mountain_pass although I think the wiki could be updated to accommodate passes which are more a way down/up this cliff, ie. a gap in the cliff line where you can pass. > Point A raised mass of land that projects over a lower area (water or > land). > > Head/headland A comparatively high promontory of land projecting into > the sea with a steep face. An un-named head is usually described as a > ‘Headland’ when a specific name is assigned, it becomes a ‘Head’. > I've been using https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural=cape although the wiki. Is there much of a different between a cape, head, headland, promontory and point? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags
On 19/04/19 17:11, Topographe Fou wrote: Oups sorry, it was not your discussion on plateau/mesa, I mixed those discussions, my bad... That is OK, I get these multiple long threads mixed up too! Whatever I still think summarizing a proposal would help for all those major geological features :) Are there any other land form things missing that should go in for consideration??? LeTopographeFou Message original De: letopographe...@gmail.com Envoyé: 19 avril 2019 9:08 AM À: tagging@openstreetmap.org Objet: Re: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags Warin, Now you start having some main feedbacks (see plateau/mesa/...), may I suggest you write a global proposal for missing geological features? In fact it is what you are doing in the mailing list but without formalism. But too many emails with too many threads to be able to follow and understand what is the proposal and what are other people thinkings for a low band-width user like me. I think we would win in efficiency with a good proposal and associated tags and pictures in order to go ahead and clarify/vote/reject what you have in mind. That is my input on this topic for the moment, thank you in advance if you proceed this way :) Yours, LeTopographeFou Message original De: 61sundow...@gmail.com Envoyé: 19 avril 2019 8:29 AM À: tagging@openstreetmap.org Répondre à: tagging@openstreetmap.org Objet: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags Along with plateau the following look to be missing from the OSMwiki, these may not be all.. Pass A depression or gap in a range of mountains or hills permitting easier passage from one side to the other. Point A raised mass of land that projects over a lower area (water or land). Head/headland A comparatively high promontory of land projecting into the sea with a steep face. An un-named head is usually described as a ‘Headland’ when a specific name is assigned, it becomes a ‘Head’. Should these too be added to the wiki. There are navigational features at least for some of us. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags
Oups sorry, it was not your discussion on plateau/mesa, I mixed those discussions, my bad... Whatever I still think summarizing a proposal would help for all those major geological features :) LeTopographeFou Message original De: letopographe...@gmail.com Envoyé: 19 avril 2019 9:08 AM À: tagging@openstreetmap.org Objet: Re: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags Warin, Now you start having some main feedbacks (see plateau/mesa/...), may I suggest you write a global proposal for missing geological features? In fact it is what you are doing in the mailing list but without formalism. But too many emails with too many threads to be able to follow and understand what is the proposal and what are other people thinkings for a low band-width user like me. I think we would win in efficiency with a good proposal and associated tags and pictures in order to go ahead and clarify/vote/reject what you have in mind. That is my input on this topic for the moment, thank you in advance if you proceed this way :) Yours, LeTopographeFou Message original De: 61sundow...@gmail.com Envoyé: 19 avril 2019 8:29 AM À: tagging@openstreetmap.org Répondre à: tagging@openstreetmap.org Objet: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags Along with plateau the following look to be missing from the OSMwiki, these may not be all.. Pass A depression or gap in a range of mountains or hills permitting easier passage from one side to the other. Point A raised mass of land that projects over a lower area (water or land). Head/headland A comparatively high promontory of land projecting into the sea with a steep face. An un-named head is usually described as a ‘Headland’ when a specific name is assigned, it becomes a ‘Head’. Should these too be added to the wiki. There are navigational features at least for some of us. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags
Warin, Now you start having some main feedbacks (see plateau/mesa/...), may I suggest you write a global proposal for missing geological features? In fact it is what you are doing in the mailing list but without formalism. But too many emails with too many threads to be able to follow and understand what is the proposal and what are other people thinkings for a low band-width user like me. I think we would win in efficiency with a good proposal and associated tags and pictures in order to go ahead and clarify/vote/reject what you have in mind. That is my input on this topic for the moment, thank you in advance if you proceed this way :) Yours, LeTopographeFou Message original De: 61sundow...@gmail.com Envoyé: 19 avril 2019 8:29 AM À: tagging@openstreetmap.org Répondre à: tagging@openstreetmap.org Objet: [Tagging] Other missing landform tags Along with plateau the following look to be missing from the OSMwiki, these may not be all.. Pass A depression or gap in a range of mountains or hills permitting easier passage from one side to the other. Point A raised mass of land that projects over a lower area (water or land). Head/headland A comparatively high promontory of land projecting into the sea with a steep face. An un-named head is usually described as a ‘Headland’ when a specific name is assigned, it becomes a ‘Head’. Should these too be added to the wiki. There are navigational features at least for some of us. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Other missing landform tags
Along with plateau the following look to be missing from the OSMwiki, these may not be all.. Pass A depression or gap in a range of mountains or hills permitting easier passage from one side to the other. Point A raised mass of land that projects over a lower area (water or land). Head/headland A comparatively high promontory of land projecting into the sea with a steep face. An un-named head is usually described as a ‘Headland’ when a specific name is assigned, it becomes a ‘Head’. Should these too be added to the wiki. There are navigational features at least for some of us. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
