Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Warin]

On 11/03/19 00:24, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 9. Mar 2019, at 17:18, Paul Allen > wrote:



You're nit-picking
about minor problems that might be faced by autonomous vehicles 
parking slightly in the
road and giving the major problem that many spaces accessible 
directly from the north
carriage of Circonvallazione Ostiense appear to be only indirectly 
accessible from the
south carriage of Circonvallazione Ostiense via a twisted route of 
parking aisles.



they are not accessible from the north, the parking aisles are there. 
I don’t know if you can see it from aerial imagery.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8673369,12.4849657,0a,75y/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sjqvvj__-eAmlT1sWnkz2tQ!2e0 



Any vehicle, autonomous or not, cannot function from mapping data alone.


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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Warin]

On 11/03/19 02:46, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

Mar 10, 2019, 3:22 PM by pla16...@gmail.com:

You seem to miss the point I was making.  How many people, apart
from yourself, will ever
have any interest in computing the exact area (or even the
approximate area) of a parking
areas?

On my TODO list of map-related ideas is running analysis how space is 
used for different cities.

One of first examples is space for parks vs space for parkings.


Socially, the ratio of parks + recreation areas to residential areas 
says a lot about the quality of living there. I would think that is an 
important measure.


Yes parking in proximity to those parks + recreation areas is important 
.. just not as important.



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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Mar 2019, at 15:22, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> Your example
> was unrepresentative of most parking bays in that it was large enough to have 
> an aisle so
> an autonomous vehicle would realize it is accessible;


That’s how parking between 2 carriageways works here typically, parking areas 
in the center with alternating access.
If autonomous vehicles are autonomous, they will understand whether a parking 
area is accessible to them or not, misrepresenting the carriage way as a 
parking in order to connect it to the highway way will not be sustainable (e.g. 
break when someone maps the road as area). What about mapping the carriage way 
also as an area along these parkings, thereby creating an explicit connection, 
if autonomous vehicles need this. Frankly, what you need to park is an empty 
spot, if I would have mapped all parking lanes (which I have never done and 
which are by large most of the roads anyway), it would not have helped anybody 
to find an actual space where to park. 

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 10, 2019, 3:22 PM by pla16...@gmail.com:

> You seem to miss the point I was making.  How many people, apart from 
> yourself, will ever
> have any interest in computing the exact area (or even the approximate area) 
> of a parking
> areas?
>
On my TODO list of map-related ideas is running analysis how space is used for 
different cities.
One of first examples is space for parks vs space for parkings.
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 at 13:44, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 10. Mar 2019, at 14:24, Paul Allen  wrote:
> >
> > But maybe I'm wrong
> > and there are vast hordes of people interested in precise areas of
> parking spaces and almost
> > nobody actually wants to park there.
>
> people can even park on a node. And no, it does not have to be part of a
> highway.
>
>
You seem to miss the point I was making.  How many people, apart from
yourself, will ever
have any interest in computing the exact area (or even the approximate
area) of a parking
areas?  How many people will want to look for parking areas and how to
access them?

You appear to be insisting that it is more important that people be able to
compute the area of
parking areas than be able to look at a map and figure out how to access a
parking area, or
for autonomous vehicles to know that the parking area is even accessible.

I find your way of mapping such things confusing, misleading, and
unrepresentative of
accessibility.  But it's very good for calculating the area.  Except I
doubt that I will ever need
to calculate the area, and I doubt many others will, either.

Autonomous vehicles will need to figure out how to access the parking
area.  Your example
was unrepresentative of most parking bays in that it was large enough to
have an aisle so
an autonomous vehicle would realize it is accessible; the original poster's
example did
not have an aisle and therefore an autonomous vehicle would not realize
it's accessible.
But at least the autonomous vehicle would be able to calculate the exact
area of the parking
area it thinks it inaccessible, which appears to be all that matters to you.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Mar 2019, at 14:24, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> But maybe I'm wrong
> and there are vast hordes of people interested in precise areas of parking 
> spaces and almost
> nobody actually wants to park there.


people can even park on a node. And no, it does not have to be part of a 
highway.

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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 10 Mar 2019 at 06:03, Alessandro Sarretta <
alessandro.sarre...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 09/03/19 17:18, Paul Allen wrote:om
>


> what I see on the map
>>
>

> you're totally misunderstanding the reality...
>

That's entirely possible.  Which was kinda my point.

> Those parking places in the middle of the two roads are NOT accessible
> from north, but only from south, and the map representation is saying so,
> with the only parking aisle coming from south...
>

OK.  So from the south, is the only way you can get to the parking spaces
via the parking aisle that
connects to the road?  In which case the situation there is NOT what this
particular debate is
about, which is a parking bay which has a long section contiguous with the
road and where any
of the spaces can be reached by turning off the road at the point adjacent
to the space.  Or is
the situation exactly what this debate is about, that you can turn into the
parking anywhere along
the stretch contiguous with the road?  In which case the way it is mapped
incorrectly represents
the situation in the south the same way as the north.

BTW, what's your guess as to how many times people will look at the map
trying to figure out
how to park there versus how many times people will run a query to get the
nodes and calculate
the area of parking available?  Because the only argument I've seen in
favour of doing it that
way is to get the area right, and I don't see that as being very
important.  But maybe I'm wrong
and there are vast hordes of people interested in precise areas of parking
spaces and almost
nobody actually wants to park there.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Mar 2019, at 17:18, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> You're nit-picking
> about minor problems that might be faced by autonomous vehicles parking 
> slightly in the
> road and giving the major problem that many spaces accessible directly from 
> the north
> carriage of Circonvallazione Ostiense appear to be only indirectly accessible 
> from the
> south carriage of Circonvallazione Ostiense via a twisted route of parking 
> aisles.


they are not accessible from the north, the parking aisles are there. I don’t 
know if you can see it from aerial imagery.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8673369,12.4849657,0a,75y/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sjqvvj__-eAmlT1sWnkz2tQ!2e0___
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Alessandro Sarretta]

Hi Paul,

On 09/03/19 17:18, Paul Allen wrote:
On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 at 16:02, Martin Koppenhoefer 
mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:



On 9. Mar 2019, at 14:03, Paul Allen mailto:pla16...@gmail.com>> wrote:

are we going to connect all roadside parking to the center of the
road ,thereby misrepresenting the extent significantly, because in
some hypothetical rare case there might be a parking between roads
which isn’t accessible from both roads?
Typically there will be access roads for parkings unless they are
not wider than a parking lot. Here’s an example around here for
parking between 2 roads with access from only one side, no issues
encountered so far:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/490431306


Until you gave that example, I thought you made some fair points.  Now 
I do not think so.


I couldn't make sense of what was going on.  I couldn't tell how to 
access those parking
spaces or how they connected to the road network.  I had to switch to 
the editor before
any of it made sense to me, and then what I saw from reality didn't 
match up with what

the rendering showed me.

The result of doing it your way is FAR worse than I thought it would 
be.  You're nit-picking
about minor problems that might be faced by autonomous vehicles 
parking slightly in the
road and giving the major problem that many spaces accessible directly 
from the north
carriage of Circonvallazione Ostiense appear to be only indirectly 
accessible from the
south carriage of Circonvallazione Ostiense via a twisted route of 
parking aisles.


From what I see on the map you're totally misunderstanding the reality...

Those parking places in the middle of the two roads are NOT accessible 
from north, but only from south, and the map representation is saying 
so, with the only parking aisle coming from south...


Ale


--

Alessandro Sarretta

skype/twitter: alesarrett
Web: ilsarrett.wordpress.com 

Research information:

 * Google scholar profile
   
 * ORCID 
 * Research Gate 
 * Impactstory 

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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Hubert87]

I might have missed it, but what about

area:highway = parking_lane

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_area


Am 09.03.2019 um 17:07 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


sent from a phone


On 9. Mar 2019, at 14:03, Paul Allen  wrote:

I see extending
the parking area to the highway as the best trade-off we have, you disagree.


indeed, I would see the misrepresentation of the size a killer issue, and if 
there are things between the parking and the road (parking ticket machine, 
phone booth, kerb, guardrail, etc.), you also will get them topologically wrong 
(as part of the parking). And less experienced mappers will create errors by 
connecting roads to the parking outline rather than the road.

Cheers, Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 9 Mar 2019 at 16:02, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> On 9. Mar 2019, at 14:03, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
> But there could be roads adjacent to two sides of a parking
> space, only one of which actually connects to it and the router could
> guess wrong.
>
>
> are we going to connect all roadside parking to the center of the road
> ,thereby misrepresenting the extent significantly, because in some
> hypothetical rare case there might be a parking between roads which isn’t
> accessible from both roads?
> Typically there will be access roads for parkings unless they are not
> wider than a parking lot. Here’s an example around here for parking between
> 2 roads with access from only one side, no issues encountered so far:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/490431306
>
>
Until you gave that example, I thought you made some fair points.  Now I do
not think so.

I couldn't make sense of what was going on.  I couldn't tell how to access
those parking
spaces or how they connected to the road network.  I had to switch to the
editor before
any of it made sense to me, and then what I saw from reality didn't match
up with what
the rendering showed me.

The result of doing it your way is FAR worse than I thought it would be.
You're nit-picking
about minor problems that might be faced by autonomous vehicles parking
slightly in the
road and giving the major problem that many spaces accessible directly from
the north
carriage of Circonvallazione Ostiense appear to be only indirectly
accessible from the
south carriage of Circonvallazione Ostiense via a twisted route of parking
aisles.

Before that example I thought your way of doing it was sub-optimal.  Now I
see it as being
badly wrong.  I don't think we'll ever agree on this one.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Mar 2019, at 14:03, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> I see extending
> the parking area to the highway as the best trade-off we have, you disagree.


indeed, I would see the misrepresentation of the size a killer issue, and if 
there are things between the parking and the road (parking ticket machine, 
phone booth, kerb, guardrail, etc.), you also will get them topologically wrong 
(as part of the parking). And less experienced mappers will create errors by 
connecting roads to the parking outline rather than the road.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Mar 2019, at 14:03, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> But there could be roads adjacent to two sides of a parking
> space, only one of which actually connects to it and the router could guess 
> wrong.


are we going to connect all roadside parking to the center of the road ,thereby 
misrepresenting the extent significantly, because in some hypothetical rare 
case there might be a parking between roads which isn’t accessible from both 
roads?
Typically there will be access roads for parkings unless they are not wider 
than a parking lot. Here’s an example around here for parking between 2 roads 
with access from only one side, no issues encountered so far:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/490431306


Cheers, Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

On 9. Mar 2019, at 14:03, Paul Allen  wrote:

>> no, just in the editor. In the rendering the parking area will probably be 
>> on the road ;-)
> 
> If you tweak it enough, and check at all zoom levels.


no, I would tweak nothing. Simply draw the perimeter of the parking and leave 
it to the renderers to make a nice picture.
You can’t have it perfect in all renderings anyway, and they might change their 
rules at any time.
Plus if you don’t draw the perimeter at its position someone else will later 
adjust it ;-)

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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

On 9. Mar 2019, at 14:03, Paul Allen  wrote:

>> There are efforts to map roads also as areas though, and sooner or later 
>> this kind of mapping will be established (in built up areas and particularly 
>> where the shape is not regular, so that it actually makes sense to do it, 
>> e.g. historic town centres).
> 
> "Sooner or later" is likely to be a lot later for much of the map.   For 
> instance, I've mapped several
> lay-bys (rest areas) from aerial imagery alone.  They tend to be on very long 
> roads (otherwise
> you wouldn't need to pull in for a break).  Mapping the full extent of a road 
> with a lay-by as an
> area would be very tedious, and there are far too many other things as yet 
> unmapped of more
> importance.


I was referring to built up areas (=in settlements), especially for roads with 
irregular shape, are those long roads with rest areas also in built-up areas?

In the countryside I do not expect we will map roads as areas even in the far 
future (unless we will have machines to do it for us, maybe).

The parking areas in question are also within settlements, and those rest areas 
will typically be mapped with their access roads, at least around here.

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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 at 18:25, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

Right, there's this "incompatibility" of the highway graph with the rest of
> our data. There are efforts to map roads also as areas though, and sooner
> or later this kind of mapping will be established (in built up areas and
> particularly where the shape is not regular, so that it actually makes
> sense to do it, e.g. historic town centres).
>

"Sooner or later" is likely to be a lot later for much of the map.   For
instance, I've mapped several
lay-bys (rest areas) from aerial imagery alone.  They tend to be on very
long roads (otherwise
you wouldn't need to pull in for a break).  Mapping the full extent of a
road with a lay-by as an
area would be very tedious, and there are far too many other things as yet
unmapped of more
importance.

>
> Your way, we'd have a gap between the parking area and the road when it
>> renders.
>>
>
> no, just in the editor. In the rendering the parking area will probably be
> on the road ;-)
>

If you tweak it enough, and check at all zoom levels.

  Which there isn't because in reality they're conjoined and contiguous.
> Your way, the parking area
> wouldn't be routeable.
>

of course you could route to the parking area. Every router does this all
> the time. We don't add housenumbers to the road, do we?
>

Theoretically (perhaps even it's already feasible in some apps) you could
route from the house
end of a driveway (selected by mouse click).  You can't do that with a
disconnected parking area
unless the router makes guesses.  But there could be roads adjacent to two
sides of a parking
space, only one of which actually connects to it and the router could guess
wrong.


> generally our roads are thicker than they are in reality, only in the
> highest zoom levels this might change to the opposite. It is impossible to
> get this right in all zoom levels.
>

Indeed.  But if the parking area connects to the road, it does get it right
at all zoom levels.  Well,
right-ish.  One of the reasons the renderer puts things at different z
indexes is so that things like
this end up looking right (ish) so that the parking space isn't shown as
extending to the middle
of the road.


> routing is not an issue, for the rendering results _might_ look more
> "clean" if you extend the parking up to the middle of the road (not that
> the representation would be more accurate though), but at the cost that the
> parking area will become much bigger than it actually is.
>

Just about everything in OSM could be done better.  Usually with associated
costs, like mapping roads
as areas, and living with the fact that we don't have the time to do the
entire extent of every road that
way, so we'd get jarring width changes everywhere.  We have to go with the
best solution we
currently have and live with the fact that the map is a stylized
representation.  I see extending
the parking area to the highway as the best trade-off we have, you disagree.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 7. März 2019 um 16:52 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen :

> On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 14:44, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> usually areas end at their actual borders in OSM, so unless you can park
>> in the middle of the road, it should not be contained in the parking area.
>>
>
> If we usually mapped roads as areas, I'd agree with you 100%.  ...
>


Right, there's this "incompatibility" of the highway graph with the rest of
our data. There are efforts to map roads also as areas though, and sooner
or later this kind of mapping will be established (in built up areas and
particularly where the shape is not regular, so that it actually makes
sense to do it, e.g. historic town centres).



>
> But we don't normally map roads as areas.  Which is why, when a footpath
> perpendicularly
> joins a road, we extend the footpath all the way to the road itself.
>


you could split the footway and give the part that is only "virtual" and
due to our data model, a different tag. I'm doing this occasionally for
driveways (access=private only after the gate, different surface etc.)



> ...
>
> Your way, we'd have a gap between the parking area and the road when it
> renders.
>


no, just in the editor. In the rendering the parking area will probably be
on the road ;-)




>   Which
> there isn't because in reality they're conjoined and contiguous.  Your
> way, the parking area
> wouldn't be routeable.
>


of course you could route to the parking area. Every router does this all
the time. We don't add housenumbers to the road, do we?




> Your way, people would spend a lot of time mapping for the renderer by
> tweaking the parking area until it just touched the road (which renders as
> a line of non-zero
> width).
>


if someone is obsessed with highzoom street rendering he should probably
push for highway areas.



>   Only to have to change it if the road classification changes and so the
> width of the
> line representing the road changes.
>


generally our roads are thicker than they are in reality, only in the
highest zoom levels this might change to the opposite. It is impossible to
get this right in all zoom levels.



>
> You're being a purist for the editor and the data structure, you don't
> care how it renders or routes.
> Some of us are pragmatists.
>


routing is not an issue, for the rendering results _might_ look more
"clean" if you extend the parking up to the middle of the road (not that
the representation would be more accurate though), but at the cost that the
parking area will become much bigger than it actually is.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Jmapb]

On 3/7/2019 9:40 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


Parking along street is a specific place for parking, in fact
it basically cannot be used for anything except as a place to park 
vehicles.


at least as long as there are cars parked ;-)
https://www.klimareporter.de/images/karo3imgmanager/resized/1001-1100/RS18190_DSCI0571-1018-960-640-80-c.jpg

Quite so -- Na zdrowie! I've seen previously parkable streetsides 
transform to outdoor amenity seating, bicycle lanes, bicycle 
parking/rental stations, electric car charging stations, food 
trucks/carts/stalls, small parks/gardens, etc. And all that aside, the 
parking regulations can change at any time. So if streetside parking is 
to be mapped, it needs survey or recent imagery, and it needs ongoing 
maintenance. (That's one of the disadvantages of using unrendered tags 
to encode this info -- it will be more difficult to see when updates are 
needed.) J
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Jmapb]

On 3/7/2019 2:05 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

even though it would prevent a routing engine from actually being 
able to arrive inside the parking amenity.


I wouldn't think that should be a problem, would it? Wouldn't a router 
only work to take you to "that" particular individual space?


I don't see it as a problem. I imagine some mappers might prefer all 
vehicle-accessible ways to be connected. J


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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 14:44, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> usually areas end at their actual borders in OSM, so unless you can park
> in the middle of the road, it should not be contained in the parking area.
>

If we usually mapped roads as areas, I'd agree with you 100%.  The edge of
the area that is the
parking space should be contiguous with the edge of the area that is the
road.  All would be
clear and unambiguous in the editor.  All would be clear and unambiguous in
the rendering.
All would be routeable in a sensible way: you could park in the middle of
the parking area
by turning off the road at that point.

But we don't normally map roads as areas.  Which is why, when a footpath
perpendicularly
joins a road, we extend the footpath all the way to the road itself.  I
found it hard to reconcile
myself to doing that at first, because the footpath doesn't extend to the
middle of the road,
it extends to the sidewalk.  In the editor, it looks wrong.  But it's
routable.  And in the rendered
map it all works out because a mathematically, infinitely-thin line in the
editor becomes a wide
road in the rendered map.  It all looks and works well, except in the
editor.  But that's the price
we have to pay because we usually map roads as lines.  We get used to what
we do in the
editor to work around the ease of mapping roads as lines rather than areas.

Your way, we'd have a gap between the parking area and the road when it
renders.  Which
there isn't because in reality they're conjoined and contiguous.  Your way,
the parking area
wouldn't be routeable.  Your way, people would spend a lot of time mapping
for the renderer by
tweaking the parking area until it just touched the road (which renders as
a line of non-zero
width).  Only to have to change it if the road classification changes and
so the width of the
line representing the road changes.

You're being a purist for the editor and the data structure, you don't care
how it renders or routes.
Some of us are pragmatists.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Mar 2019, at 02:39, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> The question I have is whether the parking area should be mapped out to the 
> middle of the road,


usually areas end at their actual borders in OSM, so unless you can park in the 
middle of the road, it should not be contained in the parking area.

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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 6. Mar 2019, at 19:48, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> Parking along street is a specific place for parking, in fact
> it basically cannot be used for anything except as a place to park vehicles.


at least as long as there are cars parked ;-)
https://www.klimareporter.de/images/karo3imgmanager/resized/1001-1100/RS18190_DSCI0571-1018-960-640-80-c.jpg


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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 02:18, Jmapb  wrote:

Yo passepor wants to "draw exactly what space is occuping" so in that case
> putting the area to the side of the road probably makes more sense, even
> though it would prevent a routing engine from actually being able to arrive
> inside the parking amenity.
>

Going from memory (I've deleted his mail with the link), those parking
areas were contiguous with
the road.  On one of them, the cars parked perpendicular to the road and
access was along the
whole length of the parking bay.  It is, I believe, correct to connect
them.  Not just for routeing but
because it represents reality on the ground.

> Personally I wouldn't be inclined to directly connect a side of the
> parking area to the highway way unless they really were completely
> indistinguishable.
>
Here's a (very small, delivery-only) parking space I mapped as connected to
the way:
https://goo.gl/maps/oaXMUYZTLn72 (relax, I didn't use Google Maps to map
it, it's literally
a two-minute walk from where I live).   I mapped it as
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/525946296  I consider that to be
indistinguishable
from the way, and from my memory of the aerial imagery for Yo passepor's
parking spaces, I believe
they were similar.

I'd only separate the parking spaces from the way if there were some
physical barrier along the
common border.  But in that situation I'd map map a driveway at each end
and possibly a
parking aisle along it.  Something more like this:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/525370232
(except that's wider than either of Yo passepor's examples, being wide
enough for two rows of
parking spaces).  The barrier in that case is a raised kerb, so you could
drive over it if you really
wanted to, but it's easier to use the entrances.

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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Thanks Jason

On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 12:18, Jmapb  wrote:

> Yo passepor wants to "draw exactly what space is occuping" so in that case
> putting the area to the side of the road probably makes more sense,
>
Just thinking about it, you'd only map strips of marked individual parking
bays, wouldn't you? eg you'd map these
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0739827,153.766,3a,75y,333.86h,83.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sI24No9D31bzI1INSJuKSeg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
but not unmarked parking lanes like these
https://www.google.com/maps/@-28.0745243,153.4371253,3a,75y,263.45h,84.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s12t78XhULb8aJjJMxlzyLA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
?

> even though it would prevent a routing engine from actually being able to
> arrive inside the parking amenity.
>
I wouldn't think that should be a problem, would it? Wouldn't a router only
work to take you to "that" particular individual space?

> Personally I wouldn't be inclined to directly connect a side of the
> parking area to the highway way unless they really were completely
> indistinguishable.
>
Yep, that's what I thought.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Jmapb]

On 3/6/2019 8:39 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 05:29, Jmapb > wrote:



On the other hand, if drawing amenity=parking areas alongside the
street
is what you want to do, certainly I've seen situations (such as
the ones
Paul linked to) where that seems to work well.


I'd also agree that amenity=parking on the road works.

The question I have is whether the parking area should be mapped out 
to the middle of the road, as the examples shown, or should it be an 
area at the side of, or off, the road? eg 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/546470035


Yo passepor wants to "draw exactly what space is occuping" so in that 
case putting the area to the side of the road probably makes more sense, 
even though it would prevent a routing engine from actually being able 
to arrive inside the parking amenity.


Personally I wouldn't be inclined to directly connect a side of the 
parking area to the highway way unless they really were completely 
indistinguishable.


J

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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 at 05:29, Jmapb  wrote:

>
> On the other hand, if drawing amenity=parking areas alongside the street
> is what you want to do, certainly I've seen situations (such as the ones
> Paul linked to) where that seems to work well.
>

I'd also agree that amenity=parking on the road works.

The question I have is whether the parking area should be mapped out to the
middle of the road, as the examples shown, or should it be an area at the
side of, or off, the road? eg https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/546470035

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Jmapb]

On 3/6/2019 1:12 PM, yo paseopor wrote:

Sorry...but parking space is not a lane, lanes are for driving. You 
cannot drive by a "parking lane". Lane has differents meanings. You 
can see the difference in Spanish: Carril para circular, Zona de 
aparcamiento. It does not exist Carril de aparcamiento.
Also adding parkign properties to the kerbs...does not help anything 
(it would be the same problem we have now. I need these items 
separated from the way, from the kerb, with its own id, to draw 
exactly what space is occuping.


You can't drive in a parking lane, but you can park in a parking lane. 
It's a common term in English, and since OSM tagging is English-based it 
doesn't make much sense to argue based on Spanish usage.


... I don't really see what our "problem" is that isn't solvable with 
street (or theoretically kerb) tagging. If the problem is that it 
doesn't show up visually on the default map, then I'd say that's a case 
of "tagging for the renderer".


On the other hand, if drawing amenity=parking areas alongside the street 
is what you want to do, certainly I've seen situations (such as the ones 
Paul linked to) where that seems to work well.


Jason


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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[yo paseopor]

Ok , ok, if it is fine I will tag parking zones at the streets with amenity
parking and the properties of parking lanes

Thank you for your attention
yopaseopor

PD: When I have said "parking lane is not a parking" I mean a parking lot,
a big parking zone not in the middle of a street. Sorry for my bad English
;)

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:52 PM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> What is the reason for not tagging it as an area?
>
> This seems to mix drawbacks of tagging as area and as a tag on road:
> - geometry is not mapped
> - it is complicated to match it to a road
> - not handled by most of data consumers
> - highly unusual tagging
>
> Mar 6, 2019, 7:14 PM by pla16...@gmail.com:
>
> On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 17:49, yo paseopor  wrote:
>
> I mean something like https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675000355
> or https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675000354
> or https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/67500085
> 
>
>
> Which look, in the editor, exactly like the examples I gave links to.  So
> what's wrong with the
> solution I used?  I can't remember where I got the idea from, but I
> probably found it somewhere
> in the wiki or suggested in one of the forums.  It handles the situation
> well.  It's a parking area
> which has one side contiguous with the road.  Big advantages: it renders
> and it shows a P
> symbol.  What more do you want?
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Mateusz Konieczny]

What is the reason for not tagging it as an area?

This seems to mix drawbacks of tagging as area and as a tag on road:
- geometry is not mapped
- it is complicated to match it to a road
- not handled by most of data consumers
- highly unusual tagging

Mar 6, 2019, 7:14 PM by pla16...@gmail.com:

> On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 17:49, yo paseopor <> yopaseo...@gmail.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>> I mean something like >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675000355 
>> 
>> or >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675000354 
>> 
>> or >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/67500085 
>> 
>>
>
> Which look, in the editor, exactly like the examples I gave links to.  So 
> what's wrong with the
> solution I used?  I can't remember where I got the idea from, but I probably 
> found it somewhere
> in the wiki or suggested in one of the forums.  It handles the situation 
> well.  It's a parking area
> which has one side contiguous with the road.  Big advantages: it renders and 
> it shows a P
> symbol.  What more do you want?
>
> -- 
> Paul
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Mateusz Konieczny]

It is probably similar to "should we map sidewalks as a separate 
highway=footway"
but why not?

See for example tagging in Poland:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=52.23091=20.95912#map=19/52.23091/20.95912

There are some reasonable objections (and arguments in support), but

"parking zone in a street is not a parking (an specific place for park)" 

seems weird to me. Parking along street is a specific place for parking, in fact
it basically cannot be used for anything except as a place to park vehicles.

Mar 6, 2019, 7:21 PM by yopaseo...@gmail.com :

> I think it is not correct. Parking zones in a street are not amenity=parking 
> , are they? It would be very interesting solution...but parking zone in a 
> street is not a parking (an specific place for park). Parking spaces would 
> fit correctly, but as you can see not all the parkings zones have drawn all 
> the parking spaces.
> I wish to use standard parking:lane properties...but not with amenity=parking 
> tag...or is it a correct use?
>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 18:23, yo paseopor  wrote:

> I think it is not correct. Parking zones in a street are not
> amenity=parking , are they?
>

Why not?  They have conditions of use.  This one
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/103703582
even has a ticket machine and you get fined if you park there without
purchasing a ticket.  It's
close to the shops, which is why people park there.

If it were a street where you can park in the lanes (assuming you meet
certain conditions) that's
a different matter.  But what you had was clearly an area set aside for
parking.  It bulges out
from the highway.  It had parking spaces marked.  It's clearly intended for
people to park there.
It walks and quacks like amenity=parking as far as I can see.

The alternative, which I do not think applies in your case, is a highway
rest area:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/608454983  That is uncontrolled.  There
are no parking
spaces marked.

Those are the alternatives we have right now.  Are you sure yours is so
different that we need
something else?

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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[yo paseopor]

I think it is not correct. Parking zones in a street are not
amenity=parking , are they? It would be very interesting solution...but
parking zone in a street is not a parking (an specific place for park).
Parking spaces would fit correctly, but as you can see not all the parkings
zones have drawn all the parking spaces.
I wish to use standard parking:lane properties...but not with
amenity=parking tag...or is it a correct use?

Salut i mapes
yopaseopor

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:15 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 17:49, yo paseopor  wrote:
>
>> I mean something like https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675000355
>> or https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675000354
>> or https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/67500085
>> 
>>
>
> Which look, in the editor, exactly like the examples I gave links to.  So
> what's wrong with the
> solution I used?  I can't remember where I got the idea from, but I
> probably found it somewhere
> in the wiki or suggested in one of the forums.  It handles the situation
> well.  It's a parking area
> which has one side contiguous with the road.  Big advantages: it renders
> and it shows a P
> symbol.  What more do you want?
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 17:49, yo paseopor  wrote:

> I mean something like https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675000355
> or https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675000354
> or https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/67500085
> 
>

Which look, in the editor, exactly like the examples I gave links to.  So
what's wrong with the
solution I used?  I can't remember where I got the idea from, but I
probably found it somewhere
in the wiki or suggested in one of the forums.  It handles the situation
well.  It's a parking area
which has one side contiguous with the road.  Big advantages: it renders
and it shows a P
symbol.  What more do you want?

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[yo paseopor]

Sorry...but parking space is not a lane, lanes are for driving. You cannot
drive by a "parking lane". Lane has differents meanings. You can see the
difference in Spanish: Carril para circular, Zona de aparcamiento. It does
not exist Carril de aparcamiento.
Also adding parkign properties to the kerbs...does not help anything (it
would be the same problem we have now. I need these items separated from
the way, from the kerb, with its own id, to draw exactly what space is
occuping.

Salut i mapes
yopaseopor


On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:01 PM Jmapb  wrote:

> On 3/6/2019 12:04 PM, yo paseopor wrote:
> > Not only parking_space but all the parking you can find in a street,
> > not a parking lot or a parking place (amenity=parking). I say I need
> > to separate and zoom the info about parking spaces (but not delimited
> > every place) in each street.
> > Parking is not a lane of the street so I want to draw it separately as
> > an area or as a way.This also would be useful for draw disabled
> > parking spaces.
> >
> > All would be inside a relation with all the other pieces of the
> > street: kerb,the road itself, sidewalks...
>
> Some definitely do consider street parking to be a "lane", see
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane for elaborate
> tagging examples.
>
> With all the talk about drawing road kerbs as ways, I imagine a proposal
> to encode street parking info as properties of the kerb (rather than of
> the street) will be forthcoming.
>
> J
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Jmapb]

On 3/6/2019 12:04 PM, yo paseopor wrote:
Not only parking_space but all the parking you can find in a street, 
not a parking lot or a parking place (amenity=parking). I say I need 
to separate and zoom the info about parking spaces (but not delimited 
every place) in each street.
Parking is not a lane of the street so I want to draw it separately as 
an area or as a way.This also would be useful for draw disabled 
parking spaces.


All would be inside a relation with all the other pieces of the 
street: kerb,the road itself, sidewalks...


Some definitely do consider street parking to be a "lane", see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane for elaborate 
tagging examples.


With all the talk about drawing road kerbs as ways, I imagine a proposal 
to encode street parking info as properties of the kerb (rather than of 
the street) will be forthcoming.


J


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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[yo paseopor]

I mean something like https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675000355
or https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675000354
or https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675000856

Salut i mapes
yopaseopor

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 6:26 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 17:06, yo paseopor  wrote:
>
>> Not only parking_space but all the parking you can find in a street, not
>> a parking lot or a parking place (amenity=parking). I say I need to
>> separate and zoom the info about parking spaces (but not delimited every
>> place) in each street.
>> Parking is not a lane of the street so I want to draw it separately as an
>> area or as a way.This also would be useful for draw disabled parking spaces.
>>
>
> Do you mean something like this
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/664700547 or this
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/525946296
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
>> All would be inside a relation with all the other pieces of the street:
>> kerb,the road itself, sidewalks...
>>
>> Salut i mapes
>> yopaseopor
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:17 AM OSMDoudou <
>> 19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Parking spaces, you mean ?
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dparking_space
>>> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 17:06, yo paseopor  wrote:

> Not only parking_space but all the parking you can find in a street, not a
> parking lot or a parking place (amenity=parking). I say I need to separate
> and zoom the info about parking spaces (but not delimited every place) in
> each street.
> Parking is not a lane of the street so I want to draw it separately as an
> area or as a way.This also would be useful for draw disabled parking spaces.
>

Do you mean something like this https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/664700547
or this https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/525946296

-- 
Paul


> All would be inside a relation with all the other pieces of the street:
> kerb,the road itself, sidewalks...
>
> Salut i mapes
> yopaseopor
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:17 AM OSMDoudou <
> 19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>> Parking spaces, you mean ?
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dparking_space
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[yo paseopor]

Not only parking_space but all the parking you can find in a street, not a
parking lot or a parking place (amenity=parking). I say I need to separate
and zoom the info about parking spaces (but not delimited every place) in
each street.
Parking is not a lane of the street so I want to draw it separately as an
area or as a way.This also would be useful for draw disabled parking spaces.

All would be inside a relation with all the other pieces of the street:
kerb,the road itself, sidewalks...

Salut i mapes
yopaseopor


On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 7:17 AM OSMDoudou <
19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:

> Parking spaces, you mean ?
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dparking_space
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[OSMDoudou]

Parking spaces, you mean ?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dparking_space___
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Re: [Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Wed, 6 Mar 2019 at 02:56, yo paseopor  wrote:

> Moment has arrived.
> I need the use of the tagging scheme into a separated items (not only the
> highway itself) to make possible the draw of specific parking areas (or
> spaces if it is specified) in the streets with their properties exactly
> drawn as areas or ways.
>

What's wrong with amenity=parking, or am I misunderstanding your question?

Thanks

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[Tagging] Possibility to draw parking properties as an area

[yo paseopor]

Moment has arrived.
I need the use of the tagging scheme into a separated items (not only the
highway itself) to make possible the draw of specific parking areas (or
spaces if it is specified) in the streets with their properties exactly
drawn as areas or ways.
I assume also the position about the use of some relation called
associatedStreet to "join" the different items we talk last days: the road
itself,the parking area (if it is) the cycleway it is associated, the kerb,
the sidewalk, the traffic signs...and so on.

What do you think?
yopaseopor
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