Re: [Tagging] Relations in Transport for London: network and operator

[Bjoern Hassler]

Hi all,

thanks for comments. Makes me think about validation. Is there a validator
that can be used to compare the accepted schemes to what the actual tagging
is? For example, is it possible to validate against manually constructed
schemes in JOSM? Is it possible to view osmose errors on certain objects
only?

Thanks!
Bjoern

On 14 July 2016 at 13:06, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> 2016-07-14 12:53 GMT+02:00 Kieron Thwaites :
>
>> Yes, it's two different tagging schemes.  "station=subway" belongs to
>> the legacy station mapping scheme, while "subway=yes" belongs to the
>> more detailed (and more complex) public transport schema, and is (or
>> should be!) found together with a public_transport=stop_position tag.
>> Note that both tagging schemes can coexist, so having both tagged is
>> acceptable.  I recommend though that, for consistency reasons, you
>> pick one (the newer public transport schema is, in my opinion, the
>> better option) and stick with it.
>>
>
>
> Actually the station=subway tag is to distinguish the whole station from
> other railbased stations (i.e. there's no relation to
> public_transport=stop_position), in legacy tagging you add it to
> railway=station. In the newer scheme I think you'd map it as
> public_transport=station and subway=yes.
> On a side note, the newer scheme can currently not be evaluated by the
> carto-osm rendering stack (main map, missing keys in rendering db).
>
> station=subway has clear semantics (it is denoting a subway station),
> while subway=yes can be combined with different objects, e.g. platforms,
> stop positions, stations etc.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Relations in Transport for London: network and operator

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-07-14 12:53 GMT+02:00 Kieron Thwaites :

> Yes, it's two different tagging schemes.  "station=subway" belongs to
> the legacy station mapping scheme, while "subway=yes" belongs to the
> more detailed (and more complex) public transport schema, and is (or
> should be!) found together with a public_transport=stop_position tag.
> Note that both tagging schemes can coexist, so having both tagged is
> acceptable.  I recommend though that, for consistency reasons, you
> pick one (the newer public transport schema is, in my opinion, the
> better option) and stick with it.
>


Actually the station=subway tag is to distinguish the whole station from
other railbased stations (i.e. there's no relation to
public_transport=stop_position), in legacy tagging you add it to
railway=station. In the newer scheme I think you'd map it as
public_transport=station and subway=yes.
On a side note, the newer scheme can currently not be evaluated by the
carto-osm rendering stack (main map, missing keys in rendering db).

station=subway has clear semantics (it is denoting a subway station), while
subway=yes can be combined with different objects, e.g. platforms, stop
positions, stations etc.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Relations in Transport for London: network and operator

[Kieron Thwaites]

On 14 July 2016 at 12:24, Bjoern Hassler  wrote:
> (1) both "line" and "tube" are in use to designate lines (e.g.
> "Piccaddilly;Bakerloo"). Only one of them tends to be filled. I assume this
> should all be "line"?

I'd actually tag this as the name=* of the route_master relation.
Open to hearing better suggestions though.

> (2) Also, I assume the ";" as a separator is correct? I.e.
> Piccaddilly;Bakerloo rather than Piccaddilly,Bakerloo ?

Oh boy, we're going to start that flame war again... but yes, ':' is correct.

> (3) I've also noticed "station=subway" vs. "subway=yes". Any thoughts on
> that?

Yes, it's two different tagging schemes.  "station=subway" belongs to
the legacy station mapping scheme, while "subway=yes" belongs to the
more detailed (and more complex) public transport schema, and is (or
should be!) found together with a public_transport=stop_position tag.
Note that both tagging schemes can coexist, so having both tagged is
acceptable.  I recommend though that, for consistency reasons, you
pick one (the newer public transport schema is, in my opinion, the
better option) and stick with it.

I recommend that you read through the public transport schema
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport)
if you haven't already -- I think it will answer a lot of your
questions.

--K

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Re: [Tagging] Relations in Transport for London: network and operator

[Bjoern Hassler]

Hi all, hi Kieran, hi Richard,

Another question: Looking at the stations,

(1) both "line" and "tube" are in use to designate lines (e.g.
"Piccaddilly;Bakerloo"). Only one of them tends to be filled. I assume this
should all be "line"?

(2) Also, I assume the ";" as a separator is correct?
I.e. Piccaddilly;Bakerloo rather than Piccaddilly,Bakerloo ?

(3) I've also noticed "station=subway" vs. "subway=yes". Any thoughts on
that?

Kieran, thanks for the suggestion. At the moment, brand isn't used on any
station, but it could be added.

See:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator#Owner_or_brand_name_aren.27t_necessarily_the_operator
> You should tag operator=* with the actual operator, which in your case
> would be either London Overground Rail Operations or KeolisAmey
> Docklands Ltd.  This is despite the fact that the franchise may change
> every few years: if and when it does, the values of operator=* should
> be updated.
>

Thanks for that too - at the moment, the correct operator isn't used a
single time. However, "London Overground" is used, and the old DLR operator
"Serco" in a few places. In terms of "duck" tagging (and future proofing),
would it not be better to just stick with shortened names, "London
Overground" and "DLR"?

Richard, that makes sense. Btw. operator=National Rail does not occur, but
operator=Network Rail does, so that side is correct.

Many thanks!
Bjoern
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Re: [Tagging] Relations in Transport for London: network and operator

[Richard Fairhurst]

Bjoern Hassler wrote:
> Second question: network. The wiki page
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/London_public_transport_tagging_scheme
> doesn't say much about "network", and these values are in use:
>
> - London Underground
> - National Rail
> - Network Rail
> - London Overground
> - TfL
> - District and Hammersmith & City Lines
>
> I would propose to retain the first four

Network Rail isn't a network, it's the company (FSVO company) that owns and
operates Britain's rail infrastructure. Anything tagged network=Network Rail
should probably be network=National Rail.

There is a slight factual impropriety as London Overground is properly part
of the National Rail network; it's little different to a strongly branded
PTE-run franchise like Merseyrail. But how you resolve this without getting
ridiculously trainspottery I don't know.

Richard



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[Tagging] Relations in Transport for London: network and operator

[Bjoern Hassler]

Hi all,

(Cross-posting to tagging and talk-gb-london.)

I've been looking at

type=public_transport
public_transport=stop_area

relations in Transport for London.

*First question: operator. *Should this be "Transport for London" or the
actual operator? TfL owns and retains branding control, but technically
it's franchised to London Overground Rail Operations (LOROL) and KeolisAmey
Docklands Ltd., who are the current operators. However, the franchise may
change every few years.

The current values used for operator are:
- Transport for London
- London Underground
- London Overground

*I would propose that these should all be changed to "operator=Transport
for London" *(irrespective of overground vs. DLR; however, obviously not
where the operator is a different entity, such as Network Rail, etc)*.
However, at least London Underground should be changed for Transport for
London.*

*Second question: network. *The wiki page
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/London_public_transport_tagging_scheme
doesn't say much about "network", and these values are in use:

*- London Underground*
*- National Rail*
*- Network Rail*
*- London Overground*
- TfL
- District and Hammersmith & City Lines)

*I would propose to retain the first four, but to change the last two to
London Underground/Overground/DLR as appropriate. *Not sure why that list
doesn't have DLR, maybe it wasn't picked up by my query.

(I have a spreadsheet with the OSM data, in case anybody wants to see the
details, generated from this data http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/hiB.)

If people are in agreement, I'll also amend the wiki page. I'll make some
of the proposed changes as well, but if anybody fancies joining in, that
would be most welcome!

Bjoern
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