Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 1:02 PM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: From my experience in the USA, prepay is only available by going inside and paying the clerk. If it turns out you didn't have enough room in your fuel tank for the amount you prepaid for, you go inside a second time and get a refund. The majority of self-service stations now require that you either pay at the pump with a card, or come inside and prepay if you will be using cash, because of people pumping fuel and then driving away without paying. Yeah, Kum Go http://www.kumandgo.com/, as a chain, seems to be very unique in dispensing gas on the honor system, and could be idiosyncratic to the region, in allowing pumps to start with the press of a button and no other input; usually it's some one-off Sinclair or Exxon franchises that are slow and rural enough to provide self and mini service on the same island at the same price, often using older equipment incapable of accepting payment at the pump. QuikTrip will allow this, but they issue a QuikStart card (that they only advertise in 10 point font on a sticker on the front of the pump along with the rest of the fine print like how much to expect a credit hold to be and the maximum amount dispensed per card sale) so they know who turned on the pump before driving off without paying. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 7:47 AM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Tue Jun 9 13:23:05 2015 GMT+0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2015-06-09 13:48 GMT+02:00 Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk: While I agree that fueling only is minimum service and not full service, around here (Europe) minimum service is always cheaper than self because there is someone who does work for you, while in self you will do it and nobody has to paid for it (there might no even be any staff at the gas station, and you'll pay in advance at a machine). In the UK your card is pre-authorised, usually to GBP99, you cannot easily prepay for an unknown amount. The charge to your card is made after you have filled the car, with the amount of fuel you have bought. payment in advance is possible with GCHQ-save cash as well, no compromising plastic needed ;-) Why worry, the ANPR cameras will get you anyway. I'd honestly be surprised if those are widely employed, because they're damn near useless. There's well over 200 varieties of license plates issued in Oklahoma by the state. Most of the tribes also have issuing authority and often have multiple varieties of plates themselves (these can get quite nuanced, for example, a disabled Cherokee veteran plate replaces the tribe's seal with the coat of arms, with the flags of the Cherokee Nation and the country (even if not US) they served for. Not all of these plates stick to strictly characters found on a US English keyboard, either (some varieties of Cherokee plates also have no English on them, though the number may have English characters). Do they give change? Otherwise how do you know how much to prepay? Yes, typically. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 4:38 PM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: On Jun 9, 2015, at 9:25 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: P brands (Arco, Amoco, BP, Aral, am/pm, Wild Bean) usually make you go inside anyway and don't let you pay at the pump. A long time ago the self pumps were crap - but i have never seen pufdles of fuel anywhere. Now basically 95% of pumps in California are self, open 24/7, and pay at the pump with a card reader or RFID token. At night there no attendants at many places. Everyone is very comfortable putting gas in the car, and with a vapor recovery system mandatory (on gasoline cars) not even the fumes escape when fueling, let alone liquid. They are pretty damn clean. In Japan, Self is very popular, and similarly very clean - though as a californian, the lack of vapor recovery means filling up the tank causes it to shoot sninky vapor out around the nozzle - so they have plastic gloves and a little towel for you there - rather than making the cars have a vapor recovery system. Maybe in places where self is second rate, people have trouble or cause spills, but i think most Californians could be considered gas station attendants Selective blindness? California's not exactly been an exception when I've been there. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Wed, 2015-06-10 at 07:15 -0500, Paul Johnson wrote: On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 7:47 AM, p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: Why worry, the ANPR cameras will get you anyway. I'd honestly be surprised if those are widely employed, because they're damn near useless. There's well over 200 varieties of license plates issued in Oklahoma by the state. They are widely used in UK, most fuel stations in the UK have them to prevent driveoffs, there is no prepay in the UK only go in and pay or pay-at-pump and most pay-at-pump is dual purpose. Eurotunnel certainly use it at checkin, and it would be a non-starter if it couldn't detect French, German, Dutch or Belgian plates. Although it is helped by only needing to recognise number that are booked. It is used for parking enforement at motorway service areas, if you are staying at a hotel or at a resturant you give them your number and they authorise you. The London Congestion Charge is based on it, as is freeflow tolling at the Dartford crossing, actually its used for tolling in Ontario which uses US style plates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Highway_407 Most of the tribes also have issuing authority and often have multiple varieties of plates themselves (these can get quite nuanced, for example, a disabled Cherokee veteran plate replaces the tribe's seal with the coat of arms, with the flags of the Cherokee Nation and the country (even if not US) they served for. Not all of these plates stick to strictly characters found on a US English keyboard, either (some varieties of Cherokee plates also have no English on them, though the number may have English characters). I am surprised non-latin characters are allowed, whilst I am used to seeing foreign plates, I can read them. Some German plates have umlauts on them, but easily read. What happens if they drive off after an accident? Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Wed, 2015-06-10 at 13:02 -0500, John Eldredge wrote: From my experience in the USA, prepay is only available by going inside and paying the clerk. If it turns out you didn't have enough room in your fuel tank for the amount you prepaid for, you go inside a second time and get a refund. The majority of self-service stations now require that you either pay at the pump with a card, or come inside and prepay if you will be using cash, because of people pumping fuel and then driving away without paying. The only stations I know of that still do post-pay are RaceWay stations (or it might have been RaceTrac, it's been a while) and those require you to swipe a (store-issued) ID card at the pump first. -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Jun 11, 2015, at 3:13 AM, Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com wrote: The only stations I know of that still do post-pay are RaceWay stations (or it might have been RaceTrac, it's been a while) and those require you to swipe a (store-issued) ID card at the pump first. In Japan, a lot of the automated self stations (which of course accept cash at the pump, being Japan and All) are pre-pay, but there are a lot of self stations with an office and an attendant (ENOS J-quest stations) that are still post-pay. These are stations that opened in the last 5 years, so it is a conscious decision to keep doing this post pay, which is surprising to me. As long as we're discussing weird gas station habits, you are not allowed to fill your own gas cans. An attendant has to fill them - and only 40L. They made this change because of terrorist worries or some stupid reason. And All gasoline cans have to be metal. All kerosene cans are plastic (so gasoline isn't accidentally put in a kerosene heater - which would explode and burn a house down). Farmers can get 200L of diesel in cans for tractors. Javbw. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
2015-06-09 13:07 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org: Everything else being the same (taxes, base fuel price, etc), minimum service is always about 10-15 cents *cheaper* than self service because they're not having to foot the bill for untrained and unknown people handling hazardous materials in a light industrial/retail facility. While I agree that fueling only is minimum service and not full service, around here (Europe) minimum service is always cheaper than self because there is someone who does work for you, while in self you will do it and nobody has to paid for it (there might no even be any staff at the gas station, and you'll pay in advance at a machine). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Jun 9, 2015, at 8:07 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Everything else being the same (taxes, base fuel price, etc), minimum service is always about 10-15 cents *cheaper* The idea that a human costs less than a credit card reader built in the pump is an intriguing proposition - are people doing an employee’s worth of damage or theft to the facility every day? I’m not saying you are wrong, but this seems counter-intuitive. than self service because they're not having to foot the bill for untrained and unknown people handling hazardous materials in a light industrial/retail facility. Please do not confuse this with full service, as there's typically a 20-30 cent difference between the two. I’ve been pumping my gas since I was 8 - I mastered the gas pump early, so Dad didn’t have to go inside. I had no idea I was a light industrial facilities technician with 25 years experience! ^_^ I’ve been so happy to see the full-service stations in Japan being converted to self-serve to dispense with an unnecessary visit to the cashier. The idea of “minimum service” as a tag value might be a good option: and removal of semicolon fuel:service_minimum=yes fuel:service_self=no fuel:service_full=yes or something Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Tue, 2015-06-09 at 06:07 -0500, Paul Johnson wrote: Full service does cost more, because full service typically checks and tops off any fluids you're low on, along with checking your tires and cleaning your windows as part of the price included; and (sometimes, if they're fishing for a bigger tip, since tipping is generally expected at full service islands), cleaning up trash and vacuuming your car, all at no extra charge. I assume they charge for things like oil? A litre of oil is close to the price of a quarter of a tank of fuel, they surely don't give that away free? As for trusting them to put the right oil in. When I started driving there were still a lot of attendant filling stations around, I tended to avoid them as I had a car with a small tank and they never filled it to the level I did for a long journey. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 12:49 PM, Andrew MacKinnon andrew...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to propose that the tag full_service=yes be used to tag gas stations that are full serve (i.e. an attendant pumps gas, like all gas stations in New Jersey and Oregon). Nope! You're conflating minimum service and full service. Check the signs at the end of the islands: It will be one of four values: CARD (for self-service cardlock only), FULL, SELF or MINI (for minimum service). I honestly cannot remember the last time that I've seen a full service station in New Jersey or Oregon (certainly not in the last decade). Minimum service is the norm (they only pump your gas, and if it's a BP brand, they don't even let you pay at the pump). If it's slow or you get a particularly enthusiastic attendant, you may get more, but at a minimum service island, don't generally expect it. Tips are not expected (you'll legitimately surprise the attendant if you do tip 'em). I can think of places where there's cardlock (I used to be a Pacific Pride member when I was in the transportation industry and had to go through their industrial safety training) and one or two actually open to the public self service stations (on the Warm Springs reservation where Oregon does not have state jurisdiction). Full service does cost more, because full service typically checks and tops off any fluids you're low on, along with checking your tires and cleaning your windows as part of the price included; and (sometimes, if they're fishing for a bigger tip, since tipping is generally expected at full service islands), cleaning up trash and vacuuming your car, all at no extra charge. The tag self_service=yes is already used for gas stations, but some gas stations are both self serve and full serve and charge a higher price for full serve. Thus I think that self_service=no should not be used in the context of gas stations. Everything else being the same (taxes, base fuel price, etc), minimum service is always about 10-15 cents *cheaper* than self service because they're not having to foot the bill for untrained and unknown people handling hazardous materials in a light industrial/retail facility. Please do not confuse this with full service, as there's typically a 20-30 cent difference between the two. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Tue, 2015-06-09 at 13:17 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: While I agree that fueling only is minimum service and not full service, around here (Europe) minimum service is always cheaper than self because there is someone who does work for you, while in self you will do it and nobody has to paid for it (there might no even be any staff at the gas station, and you'll pay in advance at a machine). In the UK your card is pre-authorised, usually to GBP99, you cannot easily prepay for an unknown amount. The charge to your card is made after you have filled the car, with the amount of fuel you have bought. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
2015-06-09 14:47 GMT+02:00 p...@trigpoint.me.uk: Do they give change? Otherwise how do you know how much to prepay? actually this is just one type of petrol stations, a small typology for the city, there's lots of them, without a roof, it is just a very small cabin and 2 pumps. During business hours there will be someone to give you change, but when operating automatically they don't normally give change, at least not reliably. You won't fill your tank completely with cash, you'd insert something like 20EUR or 50 EUR and use all of it. Like here https://www.google.it/maps/@41.859617,12.500155,3a,75y,206.36h,85.15t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1shnjYQEWoT8GBijw4ExKakA!2e0?hl=en-IT or even smaller https://www.google.it/maps/@41.859685,12.490413,3a,75y,192.24h,85.3t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sDclJUGIRiQ3J5bpNn0DMwg!2e0?hl=en-IT https://www.google.it/maps/@41.859643,12.495109,3a,75y,345.37h,88.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sXyzS6plb1IVIQHgTagNCeg!2e0?hl=en-IT https://www.google.it/maps/@41.879031,12.508233,3a,75y,62.34h,91.57t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sH68vfh_LA8GfRMqvtiVRBg!2e0?hl=en-IT Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Jun 9, 2015, at 9:25 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: P brands (Arco, Amoco, BP, Aral, am/pm, Wild Bean) usually make you go inside anyway and don't let you pay at the pump. A long time ago the self pumps were crap - but i have never seen pufdles of fuel anywhere. Now basically 95% of pumps in California are self, open 24/7, and pay at the pump with a card reader or RFID token. At night there no attendants at many places. Everyone is very comfortable putting gas in the car, and with a vapor recovery system mandatory (on gasoline cars) not even the fumes escape when fueling, let alone liquid. They are pretty damn clean. In Japan, Self is very popular, and similarly very clean - though as a californian, the lack of vapor recovery means filling up the tank causes it to shoot sninky vapor out around the nozzle - so they have plastic gloves and a little towel for you there - rather than making the cars have a vapor recovery system. Maybe in places where self is second rate, people have trouble or cause spills, but i think most Californians could be considered gas station attendants Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Tue, 2015-06-09 at 06:07 -0500, Paul Johnson wrote: Full service does cost more, because full service typically checks and tops off any fluids you're low on, along with checking your tires and cleaning your windows as part of the price included; and (sometimes, if they're fishing for a bigger tip, since tipping is generally expected at full service islands), cleaning up trash and vacuuming your car, all at no extra charge. I assume they charge for things like oil? A litre of oil is close to the price of a quarter of a tank of fuel, they surely don't give that away free? It's included in the cost. Full service is usually a loss leader while you go inside and grab some food or drop kids off at the pool. As for trusting them to put the right oil in. At least on vehicles built in my lifetime, it's said the right oil either on the filler cap, on a label stuck to the inside of the hood, or both. When I started driving there were still a lot of attendant filling stations around, I tended to avoid them as I had a car with a small tank and they never filled it to the level I did for a long journey. Some jockeys do better than others. BP jockeys usually are minimum wage slackjaws who will spill if you have an awkward tank (I know one Jeep owner who lives in Oregon and is furious about this, even though he refuses to go someplace that actually pays people to know what they're doing, join a cardlock, buy a vehicle that isn't so prone to overfill, or move someplace that has self-service; I honestly think he likes being angry about this). On the other hand, Phillips 66 and Flying J attendants tend to have a laser-like aim for getting as many last pennies in there as they possibly can without going over (they'd be deadly on The Price Is Right). Don't rightly have experience with other brands of minimum service stations, as they tend to be premium (Shell, Texaco) and I really can't see the point in paying more for a name on something I'm going to have a machine set fire to... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
2015-06-09 13:48 GMT+02:00 Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk: While I agree that fueling only is minimum service and not full service, around here (Europe) minimum service is always cheaper than self because there is someone who does work for you, while in self you will do it and nobody has to paid for it (there might no even be any staff at the gas station, and you'll pay in advance at a machine). In the UK your card is pre-authorised, usually to GBP99, you cannot easily prepay for an unknown amount. The charge to your card is made after you have filled the car, with the amount of fuel you have bought. payment in advance is possible with GCHQ-save cash as well, no compromising plastic needed ;-) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 6:53 AM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On Jun 9, 2015, at 8:07 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Everything else being the same (taxes, base fuel price, etc), minimum service is always about 10-15 cents *cheaper* The idea that a human costs less than a credit card reader built in the pump is an intriguing proposition - are people doing an employee’s worth of damage or theft to the facility every day? I’m not saying you are wrong, but this seems counter-intuitive. I imagine the environmental fines and regular cleanups have to add up. I'm pretty well travelled in the US, and the only stations I haven't seen puddles of spilled fuel somewhere are either closed, cardlock-only, or don't have self service. That's not good for air quality, fire safety or groundwater contamination (and also the three reasons why both the Oregon Department of Environmental Quality and the Oregon State Fire Marshall independently ban the practice in that state). than self service because they're not having to foot the bill for untrained and unknown people handling hazardous materials in a light industrial/retail facility. Please do not confuse this with full service, as there's typically a 20-30 cent difference between the two. I’ve been pumping my gas since I was 8 - I mastered the gas pump early, so Dad didn’t have to go inside. I had no idea I was a light industrial facilities technician with 25 years experience! ^_^ It's not that it's hard work, it's what to do in case of an accidental release. I’ve been so happy to see the full-service stations in Japan being converted to self-serve to dispense with an unnecessary visit to the cashier. BP brands (Arco, Amoco, BP, Aral, am/pm, Wild Bean) usually make you go inside anyway and don't let you pay at the pump. They want you to go inside and buy a rancid burrito out from under a hot lamp for five times what you'd buy it for from a grocery store's freezer case. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 7:23 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-06-09 13:48 GMT+02:00 Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk: While I agree that fueling only is minimum service and not full service, around here (Europe) minimum service is always cheaper than self because there is someone who does work for you, while in self you will do it and nobody has to paid for it (there might no even be any staff at the gas station, and you'll pay in advance at a machine). In the UK your card is pre-authorised, usually to GBP99, you cannot easily prepay for an unknown amount. The charge to your card is made after you have filled the car, with the amount of fuel you have bought. payment in advance is possible with GCHQ-save cash as well, no compromising plastic needed ;-) One trick I've used when I've been tight on money in the past is to use my QT QuikStart card to turn on the pump and then run inside to pay with a card, since then the card will get run at the exact value of the total instead of preauthorizing for a c-note. Kum Go is on the Honor System (welcome to Oklahoma, folks!), in which you have the option of just pressing Pay Inside to turn on the pump (which I've done if I'm going to use Google Wallet, since their pumps don't have NFC readers yet). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Tue Jun 9 13:23:05 2015 GMT+0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2015-06-09 13:48 GMT+02:00 Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk: While I agree that fueling only is minimum service and not full service, around here (Europe) minimum service is always cheaper than self because there is someone who does work for you, while in self you will do it and nobody has to paid for it (there might no even be any staff at the gas station, and you'll pay in advance at a machine). In the UK your card is pre-authorised, usually to GBP99, you cannot easily prepay for an unknown amount. The charge to your card is made after you have filled the car, with the amount of fuel you have bought. payment in advance is possible with GCHQ-save cash as well, no compromising plastic needed ;-) Why worry, the ANPR cameras will get you anyway. Do they give change? Otherwise how do you know how much to prepay? My own car I have an idea, within 4 litres but when filling a hire car (which must be returned full), I haven't a clue. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
I would like to propose that the tag full_service=yes be used to tag gas stations that are full serve (i.e. an attendant pumps gas, like all gas stations in New Jersey and Oregon). The tag self_service=yes is already used for gas stations, but some gas stations are both self serve and full serve and charge a higher price for full serve. Thus I think that self_service=no should not be used in the context of gas stations. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Self serve and full serve gas stations
On Mon, 2015-06-08 at 13:49 -0400, Andrew MacKinnon wrote: I would like to propose that the tag full_service=yes be used to tag gas stations that are full serve (i.e. an attendant pumps gas, like all gas stations in New Jersey and Oregon). The tag self_service=yes is already used for gas stations, but some gas stations are both self serve and full serve and charge a higher price for full serve. Thus I think that self_service=no should not be used in the context of gas stations. I like the concept, but I think there may be a better way. amenity=fuel fuel:service=full fuel:service=self fuel:service=full;self -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
