Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 5:02 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > it depends how you use the word "Doppelhaus". Legally it means 2 touching > houses on 2 parcels. Architectonically it means 2 more or less symmetric > buildings that touch. They don't have to share the same materials or > colours (mostly they do, sometimes they don't), but rather the building > layout/facades. Completely different buildings touching at one side are > called differently (einseitig angebaut, etc.) American terms: *duplex*: technically, one building with separate entrances. But also used far more broadly, and duplexes are a hot real estate term. *duplex apartment*: single unit spread over two floors. *triplex apartment*: single unit spread over three floors. *condo* : single building with multiple owners. Owners also belong to an association, which manages the common areas. *semidetached* or *twin*: houses that share a wall at the property line. These are often called *duplexes*. The haves of a twin look the same, unless perhaps it's also a *spite house*. *maisonette*: rough British equivalent of duplex apartment. >From the OSM point of view it may be better to break it down to atomic questions: 1. Does it straddle a parcel boundary? 2. Apartment/Deeded owners or mixed? 3. Are the architectural styles unified? building=semidetached_house is a tag I don't really know what to do with, and would thus ignore. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
Am 17.09.2015 um 16:29 schrieb Ruben Maes : building:type=semidetached_house, unlike what I wrote before, the correct tags seem to be, if one wants to tag what is already in geometry: building=house building:type=semidetached or better and more simply building:semidetached=yes which allows for multiple simultaneous types. Just like shop is not an object but an attribute of an object (building or else) indicating that it's fitted and used to sell goods, house is not an object either in OSM parlance but an attribute indicating the building is fitted for living. It's the building that's semidetached and not the house attribute. And, quite logically, we may also have building=shop building:semidetached=yes which is nothing like a semidetached_house or a semidetached_shop. Cheers André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
sent from a phone > Am 18.09.2015 um 10:20 schrieb Ruben Maes : > > Doppelhäuser which is not exactly the same as just two houses that share a > wall, right? it depends how you use the word "Doppelhaus". Legally it means 2 touching houses on 2 parcels. Architectonically it means 2 more or less symmetric buildings that touch. They don't have to share the same materials or colours (mostly they do, sometimes they don't), but rather the building layout/facades. Completely different buildings touching at one side are called differently (einseitig angebaut, etc.) Considering the roof, under German law (and likely in other places as well) each building has to form a fire compartment on its own, extending from the underground/ground to the roof, so that the fire won't pass from one to the other, but depending on the details you might not be able to see it. A very good indication are 2 symmetric front doors, e.g. http://www.beissner-hochbau.de/biga-doppelhaus-klinkerfassade-auhagen-hausbau-hannover.htm#bild > > According to Wiktionary, it is called a duplex in American English, in Germany, a duplex is an apartment with several floors (typically 2), with their private staircase. > in British, Australian and Canadian English a semi which is likely an abbreviation for semi-detached house > and in all Englishes a semi-detached. That would make the "house" part even > unnecessary, but useful to understand the meaning of the tag (unlike > building=detached). the latter could also be detached_house and would be easier to understand for foreigners, maybe cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
sent from a phone > Am 18.09.2015 um 09:47 schrieb Frederik Ramm : > > I'd say the same applies to houses. Whether something is one half of a > double house, or semi-detached, or terraced, or free-standing - isn't > that something that I can automatically determine by looking at the > nearby mapped buildings? you can only infer this if you know some details about the typology of the parts (residential building, one "main household"), otherwise two buildings (=yes) attached to each other could be any kind of constellation. We do tag the difference of single household residential buildings from multi family buildings, we do even differentiate between terraced houses and detached houses, where is the redundancy if we describe a building as semi-detached_house rather than as detached_house, in cases where it applies? cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
sent from a phone > Am 18.09.2015 um 10:00 schrieb Ruben Maes : > > None of those values are OK, but iD wants us to embrace semidetached_house? I believe to recall that this value was discussed at least on the German mailing list, I don't perceive it as pushed by iD. cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
On 18/09/2015, Frederik Ramm wrote: > I'd say the same applies to houses. Whether something is one half of a > double house, or semi-detached, or terraced, or free-standing - isn't > that something that I can automatically determine by looking at the > nearby mapped buildings? +1 I've always tagged those as "house". I try my best to avoid building=yes and disntinguish all building types, but the various detached variants I don't bother with. I'm much more likely to tag roof:shape from imagery and building:levels from surveying. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
Friday 18 September 2015 09:47:12, Frederik Ramm:
> When someone adds copious "is_in" tags to things, or when they create
> relations like "all cycleways in Cambridge", we tell them: Don't bother
> doing that, we use a spatial database, and we can compute these things
> from the data.
>
> I'd say the same applies to houses. Whether something is one half of a
> double house, or semi-detached, or terraced, or free-standing - isn't
> that something that I can automatically determine by looking at the
> nearby mapped buildings?
>
> Or is the redundancy desirable so that we can then write new debugging
> tools ("house at end of row but not tagged as semi-detached", etc?)
I thought that at first about building=detached as well. If I remember
correctly, someone said that figuring it out is a database query that takes
long.
The original import tagging page [1] says semidetached_house is used for
Doppelhäuser which is not exactly the same as just two houses that share a
wall, right? For example: I wouldn't consider these houses[2] semi-detached
because they have a very different architecture and no shared roof, while I
would have to think twice about these ones[3]. Their architecture and colour is
the same, but they have a flat, not-really-shared roof IIRC.
According to Wiktionary, it is called a duplex in American English, in British,
Australian and Canadian English a semi and in all Englishes a semi-detached.
That would make the "house" part even unnecessary, but useful to understand the
meaning of the tag (unlike building=detached).
[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rostock:Geb%C3%A4ude_und_Strukturen
[2] http://osm.org/go/0EhfysLT0?m=
[3] http://osm.org/go/0EhfynMd2?m=
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Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
Thursday 17 September 2015 16:48:48, Martin Koppenhoefer: > > sent from a phone > > > Am 17.09.2015 um 16:29 schrieb Ruben Maes : > > > > building:type=semidetached_house, > > is ok for me. We should write a definition into the wiki, thank you for > preparing a proposal. > > > building:type=dwelling_house, > > is this a house where someone is living? I prefer the values detached house > and villa, maybe also hut/cabin? > > > building:type=row_house and > > I believe these are the same as terraced houses? > > > building:type=multi_storey. > > quite generic, we also have apartments, condominium, tower, office_tower, ... > basically you can see by building_levels tag how many storeys a building has. Yes, that was my point ;) None of those values are OK, but iD wants us to embrace semidetached_house? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
Hi,
On 09/18/2015 07:33 AM, Colin Smale wrote:
> Can we assume the houses at the ends of terraces are to be tagged as
> semi detached? This needs a bit more thinking through...
When someone adds copious "is_in" tags to things, or when they create
relations like "all cycleways in Cambridge", we tell them: Don't bother
doing that, we use a spatial database, and we can compute these things
from the data.
I'd say the same applies to houses. Whether something is one half of a
double house, or semi-detached, or terraced, or free-standing - isn't
that something that I can automatically determine by looking at the
nearby mapped buildings?
Or is the redundancy desirable so that we can then write new debugging
tools ("house at end of row but not tagged as semi-detached", etc?)
Bye
Frederik
--
Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
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Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
sent from a phone > Am 18.09.2015 um 07:33 schrieb Colin Smale : > > Can we assume the houses at the ends of terraces are to be tagged as semi > detached? My dictionary believes those are called "end-terrace_house" (in German "Reihenendhaus"), while the semidetached house in German would be "Doppelhaushälfte". cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
Can we assume the houses at the ends of terraces are to be tagged as semi detached? This needs a bit more thinking through... On 17 September 2015 16:48:48 CEST, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > >sent from a phone > >> Am 17.09.2015 um 16:29 schrieb Ruben Maes : >> >> building:type=semidetached_house, > > >is ok for me. We should write a definition into the wiki, thank you for >preparing a proposal. > > >> building:type=dwelling_house, > > >is this a house where someone is living? I prefer the values detached >house and villa, maybe also hut/cabin? > > > >> building:type=row_house and > > >I believe these are the same as terraced houses? > > >> building:type=multi_storey. > > >quite generic, we also have apartments, condominium, tower, >office_tower, ... >basically you can see by building_levels tag how many storeys a >building has. >___ >Tagging mailing list >Tagging@openstreetmap.org >https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
On 2015-09-17 16:29, Ruben Maes wrote : > Hi all Yesterday iD got a new preset: building=semidetached_house. > https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2776 I don't see *at all* why such a tag would be needed as it's perfectly obvious from the topology that the building is semidetached and as it only make the query building=house more difficult. house=semidetached is harmless, though and OK (the canonical representation is building:house:semidetached=yes) generally speaking, it is bad to make a compound attribute rather than to qualify one. André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
sent from a phone > Am 17.09.2015 um 16:29 schrieb Ruben Maes : > > building:type=semidetached_house, is ok for me. We should write a definition into the wiki, thank you for preparing a proposal. > building:type=dwelling_house, is this a house where someone is living? I prefer the values detached house and villa, maybe also hut/cabin? > building:type=row_house and I believe these are the same as terraced houses? > building:type=multi_storey. quite generic, we also have apartments, condominium, tower, office_tower, ... basically you can see by building_levels tag how many storeys a building has. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset
Hi all Yesterday iD got a new preset: building=semidetached_house. https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2776 This tag is *not documented anywhere at all*. Additionally it seems to merely be the result of an import ([1]) (See my comments on the GitHub issue.) Bryan doesn't see any problems with undocumented tags. I do ([2]) so I want to have this tag either officially approved and documented or officially obsoleted by another tag. I think the tag in se is fine, though not really consistent with building=detached. Does anyone think a better value would be more appropriate? If it's ok, I'll created a proposal for it based on my understanding of the tag. Cheers Ruben [1] It introduced building:type=semidetached_house, building:type=dwelling_house, building:type=row_house and building:type=multi_storey. A lot but not all occurences seem to have been mechanically changed from building:type=* into building=*. [2] * It makes the data look wrong * It does not allow mappers to understand how it should be used * It doesn't give the devs of other editors the chance to implement it as well * Mappers of other editors are not encouraged to use it and may well never even hear about it * You can't know if you are mapping it correctly * Data users can't know about it, even though they may well be interested in supporting it etc... -- The field "from" of an email is about as reliable as the address written on the back of an envelope. That's why this message is OpenPGP signed. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
