Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
If I am not mistaken, the French were the first to have roaundabouts in quantities, but they all had the priority-to-the-right rule at the time, i.e. the priority was to the traffic entering the circle. See http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrefour_giratoire This was one of the particularities you needed to be aware of living in Germany near the border and crossing over into France frequently. Only relatively recently (1984) the French introduced the roundabout with priority in the ring. As the Wikipedia article shows, the original French sign for roundabout implied the priorité a droite and is identical to the one shown in the Croatian example ( https://maps.google.hr/?ll=45.492397,15.549753spn=0.004543,0.00883t=hz=17layer=ccbll=45.492457,15.549814panoid=606WGc-Rt8U3f-UU0k0WLQcbp=12,196.42,,0,11.92 )? Janko may be able to confirm that the Croatian Highway Code gives the priority to the right in roundabouts. On 18 June 2014 02:37, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: IMHO I think that the main idea in the concept of roundabout is that the center of the cycle (which may not be a perfect circle, sometimes not even an ellipse) has right of way over entering traffic. That's why I find it weird when: - Croatian (and perhaps some other) authorities apply the roundabout sign to a circle where entering traffic has right of way (that's the exact opposite of the original idea) - US authorities won't consider a roundabout a circle when all entrances have stop signs - Brazilians (but not the authorities) call pretty much any circular structure a roundabout (I'm Brazilian btw) However, these could probably be considered local adaptations of the original concept - which kind of defeat its original purpose. When using navigation apps, it makes sense to get special instructions only (and always) when you have right of way because of the many factors the driver needs to pay attention to while in the circle. In other non-roundabout circles, the driver has to stop within the circle, so he/she may receive additional voice instructions at each stop. Other than navigation, I don't see a good reason to tag roundabouts. On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 6:42 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Wonder if we're talking regional differences. The south of France is known to follow the Vienna Convention on Traffic (traffic in the circle yields to traffic entering from the right), and the US and Canada make no signage differences between a roundabout and a traffic circle. For navigation purposes, they're functionally identical contexts, as to who has the right of way, I believe that should be best clarified by strategically placed nodes or relations for traffic signals, stop or give way. On Jun 17, 2014 4:27 PM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: No. One of the characteristics of a roundabout is that you have precedence when you are in it. In this case there is a main road that has precedence over the two minor roads. If you want to turn left (looking in the direction of the photo) you have to yield to oncoming traffic coming from the opposite direction. This is a main road crossing a minor road with an island (or short piece of dual carriageway) in the middle of the junction On 17 June 2014 22:47, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'd call it a full blown roundabout, since you're still expected to go around it to the right in order to go left. On Jun 17, 2014 3:43 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: How would you tag this intersection in Mountain View, California? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mountain+View,+CA/@37.387343,-122.080352,3a,89.9y,118.3h,70.82t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sHblffm0KZ7pzUXLakrlBQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x808fb7495bec0189:0x7c17d44a466baf9b Should it be tagged as traffic_calming=island instead of highway=mini_roundabout? On Jun 17, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Not as rare as you think, and growing more common. I go through 2 or 3 roundabouts regularly. The US official definitions defined in the MUTCD are that roundabouts are uncontrolled or have yield signs entering, traffic circles have stop signs. Neither are signal controlled in the MUTCD. We do not have anything equivalent to the mini roundabout in the US (and likely Canada, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the US Virgin Islands) at all, so intersections tagged as such are probably wrong. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 8:38 AM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: Only relatively recently (1984) the French introduced the roundabout with priority in the ring. Today, most of the roundabouts in France are ... roundabouts where traffic in the ring has right of way and they are tagged with junction=roundabout (perhaps 99% of the rings). Since years our community (and drivers ;) is aware about the difference with traffic circles (no signage, with or without traffic signals) with priority to the right (traffic entering into the ring). The famous arc de triomphe in Paris is one of these junctions which are today the exceptions ([1]). Pieren [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/184551793 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
Am 17/giu/2014 um 22:47 schrieb Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org: I'd call it a full blown roundabout, since you're still expected to go around it to the right in order to go left. +1, this is by no means a mini roundabout. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: Btw, we also have some special cases like this one: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/47.20880/-1.58741layers=N where a tramway is crossing the roundabout. It's a normal roundabout (not a traffic circle) excepted that traffic lights stop the road traffic when the tram is crossing the junction. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
On 2014-06-17 at 14:49:33 -0400, Phil! Gold wrote: * Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com [2014-06-17 16:43 +0200]: you can find big roundabouts with traffic lights in most of the big European cities, another reason (besides the controlling the motorized traffic) is to let pedestrians (and sometimes cyclists) cross. I know of a traffic circle (here: http://osm.org/go/ZZd4GvISp--) that has a traffic light on the non-freeway entrance. The light stops entrants to the circle from that direction when there's too much of a queue on the freeway offramp. I'd still consider it a roundabout, though. +1, any case where the traffic light is usually off (or blinking yellow) and normal roundabout rules apply except for sporadic events (pedestrian crossings, too much traffic on some direction, etc.) walks and quacks like a roundabout to me -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
2014-06-18 11:06 GMT+02:00 Elena ``of Valhalla'' elena.valha...@gmail.com: +1, any case where the traffic light is usually off (or blinking yellow) and normal roundabout rules apply except for sporadic events (pedestrian crossings, too much traffic on some direction, etc.) walks and quacks like a roundabout to me +1, and I'd extend this to any case of roundabouts which are controlled by traffic lights but at the same time have yield signs for the entering roads (i.e. they become true roundabouts when the traffic lights turn off / yellow blinking). Example here: https://www.google.it/maps/@52.512768,13.323389,3a,75y,262.83h,93.43t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sQv8zdjZn1ZtLTftAvNBwBg!2e0!6m1!1e1 cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I've never heard of this turning circle term. Maybe we should call this a turning circle, and then beg routing application developers to treat it the same as roundabout. Currently, the wiki suggests to tag equally both types of junctions ([1]). To avoid confusion, we could use a specific tag like junction=traffic_circle (already 33 in taginfo) (then we could discuss about the oneway=yes implied or not). But I don't think that routing applications are checking right-of-way's. Pieren [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout#Signal-controlled_Roundabouts ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
2014-06-18 13:57 GMT+02:00 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: Currently, the wiki suggests to tag equally both types of junctions ([1]). To avoid confusion, we could use a specific tag like junction=traffic_circle (already 33 in taginfo) (then we could discuss about the oneway=yes implied or not). But I don't think that routing applications are checking right-of-way's. I'm ok with that. Now there's 34: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/95327370 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
The routing app could also say go to the first circle and then take the second exit and it would be well understood too, I think. If the user is aware of the differences between a roundabout and a traffic circle, he/she will even know beforehand if they're supposed to stop/yield at the entrances or inside the ring. On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 8:42 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-06-18 8:38 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com: As the Wikipedia article shows, the original French sign for roundabout implied the priorité a droite and is identical to the one shown in the Croatian example (https://maps.google.hr/?ll=45.492397,15.549753spn=0.004543,0.00883t=hz=17layer=ccbll=45.492457,15.549814panoid=606WGc-Rt8U3f-UU0k0WLQcbp=12,196.42,,0,11.92)? Janko may be able to confirm that the Croatian Highway Code gives the priority to the right in roundabouts. No, this is an exception in Croatia. Croatian Highway Code is the same as elsewhere in Europe, traffic inside the roundabout has right of way. It just seems to me that we should call this a roundabout because anyone that sees this thinks roundabout as a first thought, even without the sign. Maybe a strange roundabout, but a roundabout. If a routing application says go to the first roundabout and then take the second exit everybody will know how to follow those instructions. If an application says turn right at the first junction, and then right at the second junction no one will know what it's trying to say. I've never heard of this turning circle term. Maybe we should call this a turning circle, and then beg routing application developers to treat it the same as roundabout. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: This roundabout originally had no lights, but they were added with the ring road. Interesting. Now you get the disadvantages of both systems : you have the unnecessary waitings on red lights and you use a maximum of land space for a junction... Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
There is a similar situation near Geel, Belgium. First they constructed several roundabouts along the R14, then they turned them back to regular crossings Only the roundabout with the N19 is kept at the moment, but there they placed traffic signals (http://osm.org/go/0ErQgoDk--?m=relation=1263541 ) No more money ? The roundabout N19/R14 didn't work IMHO, since the traffic was not evenly spread along all directions. m On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 3:30 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: This roundabout originally had no lights, but they were added with the ring road. Interesting. Now you get the disadvantages of both systems : you have the unnecessary waitings on red lights and you use a maximum of land space for a junction... Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
2014-06-17 16:29 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis marc.ge...@gmail.com: There is a similar situation near Geel, Belgium. First they constructed several roundabouts along the R14, then they turned them back to regular crossings Only the roundabout with the N19 is kept at the moment, but there they placed traffic signals (http://osm.org/go/0ErQgoDk--?m=relation=1263541 ) No more money ? The roundabout N19/R14 didn't work IMHO, since the traffic was not evenly spread along all directions. you can find big roundabouts with traffic lights in most of the big European cities, another reason (besides the controlling the motorized traffic) is to let pedestrians (and sometimes cyclists) cross. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
* Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com [2014-06-17 16:43 +0200]: you can find big roundabouts with traffic lights in most of the big European cities, another reason (besides the controlling the motorized traffic) is to let pedestrians (and sometimes cyclists) cross. I know of a traffic circle (here: http://osm.org/go/ZZd4GvISp--) that has a traffic light on the non-freeway entrance. The light stops entrants to the circle from that direction when there's too much of a queue on the freeway offramp. I'd still consider it a roundabout, though. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
Not as rare as you think, and growing more common. I go through 2 or 3 roundabouts regularly. The US official definitions defined in the MUTCD are that roundabouts are uncontrolled or have yield signs entering, traffic circles have stop signs. Neither are signal controlled in the MUTCD. We do not have anything equivalent to the mini roundabout in the US (and likely Canada, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the US Virgin Islands) at all, so intersections tagged as such are probably wrong. On Jun 13, 2014 11:30 AM, Clay Smalley claysmal...@gmail.com wrote: Coming from the US where any form of roundabout is rare, I would consider any circular intersection a roundabout. Some have signals, some don't have signals. I know that some people in the US distinguish between the two, where a 'roundabout' has no signals and a 'traffic circle' does have signals. Either way, it makes sense to me to tag it as a roundabout because: 1) it is a junction of multiple roads 2) all traffic must enter a circular roadway, and then get off at some point Out of curiosity, what are others' criteria for a roundabout? On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I used to believe that, by definition, all roundabouts have free transit and right of way along the circle, and that anything that didn't display that property isn't a roundabout (just a circle). But reading the wiki once again, I'm a little in doubt. The wiki mentions that this is a roundabout, but I would previously have thought it wasn't because of the traffic lights within it: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.59689/-1.14146 So why is it a roundabout? Is it because of the circular shape? Or could it be because it's impossible to infer that any of the entering ways have right of way, since they are all controlled by traffic lights? -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
At least one roundabout in Portland is actually square. On Jun 13, 2014 3:15 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 13/giu/2014 um 18:28 schrieb Clay Smalley claysmal...@gmail.com: Out of curiosity, what are others' criteria for a roundabout? priority for the inner traffic is the main circular is not a requirement, can have any shape (usually they are indeed circular) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
Arc du Triumph? On Jun 17, 2014 8:32 AM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: This roundabout originally had no lights, but they were added with the ring road. Interesting. Now you get the disadvantages of both systems : you have the unnecessary waitings on red lights and you use a maximum of land space for a junction... Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
How would you tag this intersection in Mountain View, California? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mountain+View,+CA/@37.387343,-122.080352,3a,89.9y,118.3h,70.82t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sHblffm0KZ7pzUXLakrlBQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x808fb7495bec0189:0x7c17d44a466baf9b Should it be tagged as traffic_calming=island instead of highway=mini_roundabout? On Jun 17, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Not as rare as you think, and growing more common. I go through 2 or 3 roundabouts regularly. The US official definitions defined in the MUTCD are that roundabouts are uncontrolled or have yield signs entering, traffic circles have stop signs. Neither are signal controlled in the MUTCD. We do not have anything equivalent to the mini roundabout in the US (and likely Canada, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the US Virgin Islands) at all, so intersections tagged as such are probably wrong. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
I'd call it a full blown roundabout, since you're still expected to go around it to the right in order to go left. On Jun 17, 2014 3:43 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: How would you tag this intersection in Mountain View, California? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mountain+View,+CA/@37.387343,-122.080352,3a,89.9y,118.3h,70.82t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sHblffm0KZ7pzUXLakrlBQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x808fb7495bec0189:0x7c17d44a466baf9b Should it be tagged as traffic_calming=island instead of highway=mini_roundabout? On Jun 17, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Not as rare as you think, and growing more common. I go through 2 or 3 roundabouts regularly. The US official definitions defined in the MUTCD are that roundabouts are uncontrolled or have yield signs entering, traffic circles have stop signs. Neither are signal controlled in the MUTCD. We do not have anything equivalent to the mini roundabout in the US (and likely Canada, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the US Virgin Islands) at all, so intersections tagged as such are probably wrong. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
It's certainly not a mini-roundabout, because the centre piece is not intended to be traversed by vehicles (see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmini_roundabout) On 17 June 2014 22:43, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: How would you tag this intersection in Mountain View, California? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mountain+View,+CA/@37.387343,-122.080352,3a,89.9y,118.3h,70.82t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sHblffm0KZ7pzUXLakrlBQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x808fb7495bec0189:0x7c17d44a466baf9b Should it be tagged as traffic_calming=island instead of highway=mini_roundabout? On Jun 17, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Not as rare as you think, and growing more common. I go through 2 or 3 roundabouts regularly. The US official definitions defined in the MUTCD are that roundabouts are uncontrolled or have yield signs entering, traffic circles have stop signs. Neither are signal controlled in the MUTCD. We do not have anything equivalent to the mini roundabout in the US (and likely Canada, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the US Virgin Islands) at all, so intersections tagged as such are probably wrong. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
No. One of the characteristics of a roundabout is that you have precedence when you are in it. In this case there is a main road that has precedence over the two minor roads. If you want to turn left (looking in the direction of the photo) you have to yield to oncoming traffic coming from the opposite direction. This is a main road crossing a minor road with an island (or short piece of dual carriageway) in the middle of the junction On 17 June 2014 22:47, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'd call it a full blown roundabout, since you're still expected to go around it to the right in order to go left. On Jun 17, 2014 3:43 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: How would you tag this intersection in Mountain View, California? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mountain+View,+CA/@37.387343,-122.080352,3a,89.9y,118.3h,70.82t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sHblffm0KZ7pzUXLakrlBQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x808fb7495bec0189:0x7c17d44a466baf9b Should it be tagged as traffic_calming=island instead of highway=mini_roundabout? On Jun 17, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Not as rare as you think, and growing more common. I go through 2 or 3 roundabouts regularly. The US official definitions defined in the MUTCD are that roundabouts are uncontrolled or have yield signs entering, traffic circles have stop signs. Neither are signal controlled in the MUTCD. We do not have anything equivalent to the mini roundabout in the US (and likely Canada, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the US Virgin Islands) at all, so intersections tagged as such are probably wrong. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
Wow, really? Got a photo? On Jun 17, 2014 4:22 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I've seen one actual mini round about in Seattle and one in Mount Vernon. Certainly there are numerous traffic calming islands incorrectly tagged as mini runabouts. On Jun 17, 2014 1:10 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Not as rare as you think, and growing more common. I go through 2 or 3 roundabouts regularly. The US official definitions defined in the MUTCD are that roundabouts are uncontrolled or have yield signs entering, traffic circles have stop signs. Neither are signal controlled in the MUTCD. We do not have anything equivalent to the mini roundabout in the US (and likely Canada, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the US Virgin Islands) at all, so intersections tagged as such are probably wrong. On Jun 13, 2014 11:30 AM, Clay Smalley claysmal...@gmail.com wrote: Coming from the US where any form of roundabout is rare, I would consider any circular intersection a roundabout. Some have signals, some don't have signals. I know that some people in the US distinguish between the two, where a 'roundabout' has no signals and a 'traffic circle' does have signals. Either way, it makes sense to me to tag it as a roundabout because: 1) it is a junction of multiple roads 2) all traffic must enter a circular roadway, and then get off at some point Out of curiosity, what are others' criteria for a roundabout? On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I used to believe that, by definition, all roundabouts have free transit and right of way along the circle, and that anything that didn't display that property isn't a roundabout (just a circle). But reading the wiki once again, I'm a little in doubt. The wiki mentions that this is a roundabout, but I would previously have thought it wasn't because of the traffic lights within it: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.59689/-1.14146 So why is it a roundabout? Is it because of the circular shape? Or could it be because it's impossible to infer that any of the entering ways have right of way, since they are all controlled by traffic lights? -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
Wonder if we're talking regional differences. The south of France is known to follow the Vienna Convention on Traffic (traffic in the circle yields to traffic entering from the right), and the US and Canada make no signage differences between a roundabout and a traffic circle. For navigation purposes, they're functionally identical contexts, as to who has the right of way, I believe that should be best clarified by strategically placed nodes or relations for traffic signals, stop or give way. On Jun 17, 2014 4:27 PM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: No. One of the characteristics of a roundabout is that you have precedence when you are in it. In this case there is a main road that has precedence over the two minor roads. If you want to turn left (looking in the direction of the photo) you have to yield to oncoming traffic coming from the opposite direction. This is a main road crossing a minor road with an island (or short piece of dual carriageway) in the middle of the junction On 17 June 2014 22:47, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'd call it a full blown roundabout, since you're still expected to go around it to the right in order to go left. On Jun 17, 2014 3:43 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: How would you tag this intersection in Mountain View, California? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mountain+View,+CA/@37.387343,-122.080352,3a,89.9y,118.3h,70.82t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sHblffm0KZ7pzUXLakrlBQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x808fb7495bec0189:0x7c17d44a466baf9b Should it be tagged as traffic_calming=island instead of highway=mini_roundabout? On Jun 17, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Not as rare as you think, and growing more common. I go through 2 or 3 roundabouts regularly. The US official definitions defined in the MUTCD are that roundabouts are uncontrolled or have yield signs entering, traffic circles have stop signs. Neither are signal controlled in the MUTCD. We do not have anything equivalent to the mini roundabout in the US (and likely Canada, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the US Virgin Islands) at all, so intersections tagged as such are probably wrong. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
IMHO I think that the main idea in the concept of roundabout is that the center of the cycle (which may not be a perfect circle, sometimes not even an ellipse) has right of way over entering traffic. That's why I find it weird when: - Croatian (and perhaps some other) authorities apply the roundabout sign to a circle where entering traffic has right of way (that's the exact opposite of the original idea) - US authorities won't consider a roundabout a circle when all entrances have stop signs - Brazilians (but not the authorities) call pretty much any circular structure a roundabout (I'm Brazilian btw) However, these could probably be considered local adaptations of the original concept - which kind of defeat its original purpose. When using navigation apps, it makes sense to get special instructions only (and always) when you have right of way because of the many factors the driver needs to pay attention to while in the circle. In other non-roundabout circles, the driver has to stop within the circle, so he/she may receive additional voice instructions at each stop. Other than navigation, I don't see a good reason to tag roundabouts. On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 6:42 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Wonder if we're talking regional differences. The south of France is known to follow the Vienna Convention on Traffic (traffic in the circle yields to traffic entering from the right), and the US and Canada make no signage differences between a roundabout and a traffic circle. For navigation purposes, they're functionally identical contexts, as to who has the right of way, I believe that should be best clarified by strategically placed nodes or relations for traffic signals, stop or give way. On Jun 17, 2014 4:27 PM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: No. One of the characteristics of a roundabout is that you have precedence when you are in it. In this case there is a main road that has precedence over the two minor roads. If you want to turn left (looking in the direction of the photo) you have to yield to oncoming traffic coming from the opposite direction. This is a main road crossing a minor road with an island (or short piece of dual carriageway) in the middle of the junction On 17 June 2014 22:47, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'd call it a full blown roundabout, since you're still expected to go around it to the right in order to go left. On Jun 17, 2014 3:43 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote: How would you tag this intersection in Mountain View, California? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mountain+View,+CA/@37.387343,-122.080352,3a,89.9y,118.3h,70.82t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sHblffm0KZ7pzUXLakrlBQw!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x808fb7495bec0189:0x7c17d44a466baf9b Should it be tagged as traffic_calming=island instead of highway=mini_roundabout? On Jun 17, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Not as rare as you think, and growing more common. I go through 2 or 3 roundabouts regularly. The US official definitions defined in the MUTCD are that roundabouts are uncontrolled or have yield signs entering, traffic circles have stop signs. Neither are signal controlled in the MUTCD. We do not have anything equivalent to the mini roundabout in the US (and likely Canada, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the US Virgin Islands) at all, so intersections tagged as such are probably wrong. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
Am 13/giu/2014 um 23:20 schrieb Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: There's a town in Croatia where all roundabouts have a roundabout sign, but the traffic entering the roundabout has right of way. How do we tag that? Link to streetview of one such roundabout. nice. I'd ask the local authorities about the sign. cheers, Martin___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
I think I should comment on this, I know this roundabout very well, actually too well. It is definitely a roundabout, that is how it is know in the UK, and in common with many signalised roundabouts, not all traffic joining is under traffic light control, these routes do give way to traffic on the roundabout. In this case traffic joining from Wigston Lane and Stonesby Avenue give way to traffic on the roundabout, there are no lights in these instances. This roundabout originally had no lights, but they were added with the ring road. BTW the name Pork PIe comes from the round library, known as the Pork Pie library, any round building gets tagged as pork pie in Leicester. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
Hello, I used to believe that, by definition, all roundabouts have free transit and right of way along the circle, and that anything that didn't display that property isn't a roundabout (just a circle). But reading the wiki once again, I'm a little in doubt. The wiki mentions that this is a roundabout, but I would previously have thought it wasn't because of the traffic lights within it: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.59689/-1.14146 So why is it a roundabout? Is it because of the circular shape? Or could it be because it's impossible to infer that any of the entering ways have right of way, since they are all controlled by traffic lights? -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
On 13 June 2014 16:54, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: So why is it a roundabout? Is it because of the circular shape? Or could it be because it's impossible to infer that any of the entering ways have right of way, since they are all controlled by traffic lights? I don't know about the UK, but [1] is a roundabout (despite the traffic lights) because it has a 'roundabout' traffic sign. -- Matthijs [1] https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Europaplein,+Utrecht,+The+Netherlandshl=enll=52.066713,5.110263spn=0.005177,0.009645sll=37.0625,-95.677068sspn=51.841773,79.013672oq=europaplain,+utrehq=Europaplein,hnear=Utrecht,+The+Netherlandst=mfll=52.066258,5.105864fspn=0.00496,0.013733z=17layer=ccbll=52.06683,5.108433panoid=F8JMlqS_ljS3178KrU8VsQcbp=12,270.74,,1,2.57 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
Roundabouts like this sometimes (in Britain) have part time traffic lights. So, some times of day it is a true roundabout, and some times of day it is a circle of road with traffic signals! I don't know the one you linked, to but it's possible that is what is going on here. Dan 2014-06-13 16:54 GMT+01:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: Hello, I used to believe that, by definition, all roundabouts have free transit and right of way along the circle, and that anything that didn't display that property isn't a roundabout (just a circle). But reading the wiki once again, I'm a little in doubt. The wiki mentions that this is a roundabout, but I would previously have thought it wasn't because of the traffic lights within it: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.59689/-1.14146 So why is it a roundabout? Is it because of the circular shape? Or could it be because it's impossible to infer that any of the entering ways have right of way, since they are all controlled by traffic lights? -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
Good question. I think this is because originally it was, as many others in the UK, a true roundabout with priority in the ring. The traffic signals were added later to avoid blocking up the (ex-)roundabouts. I have seen many roundabouts in the UK go through these phases: New clean roundabout; access control by traffic signals (sometimes part-time); traffic signals in the actual ring (as in the example. Even though they are still called xxx-roundabout, I agree with you that they do not correspond to the criteria for roundabouts, and I believe there are no roundabout traffic signs either I would invite comments form the UK mappers on this, as they seem to have added the corresponding paragraph into the wiki article on roundabouts. Here in Italy I would not tag a similar road layout as junction=roundabout On 13 June 2014 17:54, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I used to believe that, by definition, all roundabouts have free transit and right of way along the circle, and that anything that didn't display that property isn't a roundabout (just a circle). But reading the wiki once again, I'm a little in doubt. The wiki mentions that this is a roundabout, but I would previously have thought it wasn't because of the traffic lights within it: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.59689/-1.14146 So why is it a roundabout? Is it because of the circular shape? Or could it be because it's impossible to infer that any of the entering ways have right of way, since they are all controlled by traffic lights? -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
Coming from the US where any form of roundabout is rare, I would consider any circular intersection a roundabout. Some have signals, some don't have signals. I know that some people in the US distinguish between the two, where a 'roundabout' has no signals and a 'traffic circle' does have signals. Either way, it makes sense to me to tag it as a roundabout because: 1) it is a junction of multiple roads 2) all traffic must enter a circular roadway, and then get off at some point Out of curiosity, what are others' criteria for a roundabout? On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I used to believe that, by definition, all roundabouts have free transit and right of way along the circle, and that anything that didn't display that property isn't a roundabout (just a circle). But reading the wiki once again, I'm a little in doubt. The wiki mentions that this is a roundabout, but I would previously have thought it wasn't because of the traffic lights within it: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.59689/-1.14146 So why is it a roundabout? Is it because of the circular shape? Or could it be because it's impossible to infer that any of the entering ways have right of way, since they are all controlled by traffic lights? -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
I think we should call this a roundabout because it's round, and the general public calls it a roundabout whatever the rules and laws say. If some roundabouts are not real roundabouts, we can tag that with subtags, roundabout=unofficial or something. If we want to tag right of way, we tag that with corresponding tags (I don't know if they exist yet, but why not). Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
A signal-controlled roundabout reverts to being a normal roundabout if the traffic signals are not working (assuming it is also signed as a roundabout), so the presence/absence of the traffic signals cannot be a criterion for it being a roundabout or not. I expect most countries will have a traffic sign meaning roundabout. Apart from anything else they suggest that you should not be surprised or disorientated when you have to turn left while you actually wanted to turn right (left-hand traffic) - keep going round and you will get to your exit. Colin On 2014-06-13 18:25, Volker Schmidt wrote: Good question. I think this is because originally it was, as many others in the UK, a true roundabout with priority in the ring. The traffic signals were added later to avoid blocking up the (ex-)roundabouts. I have seen many roundabouts in the UK go through these phases: New clean roundabout; access control by traffic signals (sometimes part-time); traffic signals in the actual ring (as in the example. Even though they are still called xxx-roundabout, I agree with you that they do not correspond to the criteria for roundabouts, and I believe there are no roundabout traffic signs either I would invite comments form the UK mappers on this, as they seem to have added the corresponding paragraph into the wiki article on roundabouts. Here in Italy I would not tag a similar road layout as junction=roundabout On 13 June 2014 17:54, Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I used to believe that, by definition, all roundabouts have free transit and right of way along the circle, and that anything that didn't display that property isn't a roundabout (just a circle). But reading the wiki once again, I'm a little in doubt. The wiki mentions that this is a roundabout, but I would previously have thought it wasn't because of the traffic lights within it: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.59689/-1.14146 [1] So why is it a roundabout? Is it because of the circular shape? Or could it be because it's impossible to infer that any of the entering ways have right of way, since they are all controlled by traffic lights? -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 [2] Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [3] ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [3] Links: -- [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.59689/-1.14146 [2] tel:%2B55%20%2851%29%209962-5409 [3] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
Am 13/giu/2014 um 18:32 schrieb Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: I think we should call this a roundabout because it's round, and the general public calls it a roundabout whatever the rules and laws say. -1, only roundabouts should get the tag, and roundabouts are only situations where the traffic inside has the priority (traffic lights or not). Usually a roundabout has its sign (might differ according to the country ) If some roundabouts are not real roundabouts, we can tag that with subtags -1, don't put wrong tags and justify then with subtags, subtags are for subsets, not for different objects , roundabout=unofficial or something. If we want to tag right of way, we tag that with corresponding tags right of way is implicit in a roundabout cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
Am 13/giu/2014 um 18:28 schrieb Clay Smalley claysmal...@gmail.com: Out of curiosity, what are others' criteria for a roundabout? priority for the inner traffic is the main circular is not a requirement, can have any shape (usually they are indeed circular) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
Great, so my assumptions were mostly correct, except in the case of traffic lights inside the roundabout and on its entrances. I did find some roundabouts that are not perfectly circular in a small town here in Brazil. They resemble the figure of the number 8 (the mapping of the area is still quite incomplete though): https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/131278892 On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 5:14 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: Am 13/giu/2014 um 18:28 schrieb Clay Smalley claysmal...@gmail.com: Out of curiosity, what are others' criteria for a roundabout? priority for the inner traffic is the main circular is not a requirement, can have any shape (usually they are indeed circular) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Signal-controlled roundabouts
2014-06-13 22:11 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: -1, only roundabouts should get the tag, and roundabouts are only situations where the traffic inside has the priority (traffic lights or not). Usually a roundabout has its sign (might differ according to the country ) There's a town in Croatia where all roundabouts have a roundabout sign, but the traffic entering the roundabout has right of way. How do we tag that? Link to streetview of one such roundabout. https://maps.google.hr/?ll=45.492397,15.549753spn=0.004543,0.00883t=hz=17layer=ccbll=45.492457,15.549814panoid=606WGc-Rt8U3f-UU0k0WLQcbp=12,196.42,,0,11.92 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
