Re: [Tagging] Super-keys are evil
Though, I have to admit that introducing new categories nor moving tags from one to another is not easy and often bricks, like osm-carto will not support it for quite some time, are through between your legs. Still in favour of introducing some more categories. cu fly Am 24.02.2015 um 20:02 schrieb Frederik Ramm: On 02/23/2015 02:43 AM, Kurt Blunt wrote: Right now, tags serve two distinct purposes. There are attribute tags like name=Wall Street, and there are category tags like amenity=parking or aeroway=helipad. This works for many things but not all; the border can be blurred. You will not be able to fit every key into your category or attribute schema. Many tags don't even make sense. What does highway=track mean? Is it a highway that acts as a track? A track is clearly not a type of highway. A track is just a track. And if you travel along a dark track in the night then you might be robbed by a highwayman. A contributor is left to feel like an idiot for not understanding the logic behind this system. Woe betide all who mistake highway=unclasssified for a street that lacks classification. For these reasons, I believe there is a case to be made for an overhaul of category tags. My personal opinion is that we should get rid of super-keys altogether and instead promote all categories to keys with empty values: amenity=reception_desk becomes reception_desk=, highway=track becomes track=, aerialway=gondola becomes gondola=, barrier=city_wall becomes city_wall=, historic=city_gate becomes city_gate=, sport=volleyball becomes volleyball=, etc. And power=line becomes line= and barrier=line becomes, uh, wait a minute. It is not so simple, even leaving aside the fact that many programs would simply dismiss your empty values. Now, I don't actually think such an overhaul is currently feasible given the massive burden it would put on the database system. However, it might be something to think about for the future. I think that in theory what you call super keys is a good thing to have because it gives you a layered level of understanding. For example, if someone tags natural=water water=lake lake=turlough then you have a chance to understand this is a natural feature (and not man-made) even if you don't know what a lake is; you can understand this is a lake (and not a reservoir) even if you don't know what a turlough is; or you're so much into water bodies that you can actually understand the full message. If the tag was instead the space-saving turlough= then you'd be stumped without recourse to the giant tag dictionary that explains to your renderer that something tagged turlough= should perhaps be drawn in a blue-ish colour. Matter in a nutshell: Certainly the way we use these super tags has a lot of historical baggage but I don't think it is a stupid idea per se, *especially* if your goal is (like you're claiming yours to be) making tags easy for mappers. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Super-keys are evil
Matter in a nutshell: Certainly the way we use these super tags has a lot of historical baggage but I don't think it is a stupid idea per se, *especially* if your goal is (like you're claiming yours to be) making tags easy for mappers. I apologize for writing like a troll. I should have been more respectful of the work that's gone into designing the current tagging system. The real world is messy, so any tagging system will have pros and cons. It's easy for me as an outsider to come here and criticize past decisions, but it's not productive. To everyone who has contributed to it over the years, I say thank you for helping to create a free world map. FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Super-keys are evil
In a previous thread on this mailing list, someone proposed amenity=reception_desk. Someone else observed that the amenity key is where you put a new tag when you don't know where else to put it. I think this is a symptom of a bigger problem with tags on OSM. Right now, tags serve two distinct purposes. There are attribute tags like name=Wall Street, and there are category tags like amenity=parking or aeroway=helipad. Categories are represented as values of a few super-keys: highway, amenity, building, aerialway, aeroway, and a few others. When you create a new category, you're expected to shove it under the most appropriate super-key. This is not easy. I sympathize with contributors who propose new tags. When you want to tag the same point with multiple categories, those categories must share the same tag and be separated by a semicolon e.g. shop=convenience;alcohol. That is, unless the two categories are under two different super-keys, in which case the object will have a separate tag for each category. This is inconsistent. But nevermind the inconsistency. More importantly, this key-value tag hierarchy makes it unnecessarily difficult for contributors to remember tags. More specifically, it's difficult to remember under which super-key the category is located. Is it building=shrine or amenity=shrine? Is it barrier=city_wall or historic=city_wall? What about city_gate? Many tags don't even make sense. What does highway=track mean? Is it a highway that acts as a track? A track is clearly not a type of highway. A track is just a track. A contributor is left to feel like an idiot for not understanding the logic behind this system. For these reasons, I believe there is a case to be made for an overhaul of category tags. My personal opinion is that we should get rid of super-keys altogether and instead promote all categories to keys with empty values: amenity=reception_desk becomes reception_desk=, highway=track becomes track=, aerialway=gondola becomes gondola=, barrier=city_wall becomes city_wall=, historic=city_gate becomes city_gate=, sport=volleyball becomes volleyball=, etc. Attribute tags would remain as they are now. This solution would make all the problems I mentioned above go away. Also, it would be pretty easy for current contributors to learn the new tags since we're essentially just removing super-keys, not adding anything. Now, I don't actually think such an overhaul is currently feasible given the massive burden it would put on the database system. However, it might be something to think about for the future. TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if5 Capture screenshots, upload images, edit and send them to your friends through IMs, post on Twitter®, Facebook®, MySpace™, LinkedIn® – FAST! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Super-keys are evil
On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 2:43 AM, Kurt Blunt k.bl...@inbox.com wrote: When you want to tag the same point with multiple categories, those categories must share the same tag and be separated by a semicolon e.g. shop=convenience;alcohol. That is, unless the two categories are under two different super-keys, in which case the object will have a separate tag for each category. This is inconsistent. We have other options than the semicolon e.g. shop=convenience + alcohol=yes. We have noticed that excepted some rare exceptions (like multi-refs or opening hours), semicolons should be avoided in OSM because data consumers don't like them. But nevermind the inconsistency. More importantly, this key-value tag hierarchy makes it unnecessarily difficult for contributors to remember tags. More specifically, it's difficult to remember under which super-key the category is located. Is it building=shrine or amenity=shrine? Is it barrier=city_wall or historic=city_wall? What about city_gate? Editors are supposed to provide some help tools like the presets where you type city wall and the editor finds the correct tag for you. Otherwise you can open the infamous wiki Map features page and use your browser search function. Many tags don't even make sense. What does highway=track mean? Is it a highway that acts as a track? A track is clearly not a type of highway. A track is just a track. A contributor is left to feel like an idiot for not understanding the logic behind this system. English is not my native language but I learned with OSM that highway has a modern meaning for main (inter-cities) roads but also an older meaning for any public road (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/highway?s=t). I hope you feel less like an idiot now... amenity=reception_desk becomes reception_desk=, highway=track becomes track=, aerialway=gondola becomes gondola=, barrier=city_wall becomes city_wall=, historic=city_gate becomes city_gate=, sport=volleyball becomes volleyball=, etc. A key with an empty value doesn't save much. And it can be worse and lead to misunderstandings. When you write track=, is it for cars or for trains ? Then you need a subkey again... I know one example following your idea: the bus=yes which can be used with public_transport or access keys but with different meanings (and no possibility to combine on the same element). In addition, you create much more work for the data consumers. The first example is the renderer who can render all buildings or all barriers in the same style, using a single rendering rule for all types of buildings or barriers which wouldn't be possible with your solution. I'm not saying the current system is perfect, we made mistakes (like the tourism category imho) but it's a compromise. And things can be changed (see highway=ford or aed) although it's not easy and really needs good and valid reasons. Now, I don't actually think such an overhaul is currently feasible given the massive burden it would put on the database system. However, it might be something to think about for the future. I think that after 10+ years of discussions, you are not the first who came with this idea. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Super-keys are evil
The editing tools have a role here, with iD leading the way. With iD one writes the thing, for example a bathroom. The editor matches this to available tags and lets you choose. It even hides the actual tag name (amenity=toilet most likely in this case). Thus with a good set of aliases, the actual tag name becomes unimportant to remember. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Super-keys are evil
I think the top level keys have tremendous value. For example the current scheme allows rendering of generic tourist attractions and shops, even if the individual shop types are unknown (e.g. the singular dog collar shop in OSM and probably the world). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Super-keys are evil
Hi, On 02/23/2015 02:43 AM, Kurt Blunt wrote: Right now, tags serve two distinct purposes. There are attribute tags like name=Wall Street, and there are category tags like amenity=parking or aeroway=helipad. This works for many things but not all; the border can be blurred. You will not be able to fit every key into your category or attribute schema. Many tags don't even make sense. What does highway=track mean? Is it a highway that acts as a track? A track is clearly not a type of highway. A track is just a track. And if you travel along a dark track in the night then you might be robbed by a highwayman. A contributor is left to feel like an idiot for not understanding the logic behind this system. Woe betide all who mistake highway=unclasssified for a street that lacks classification. For these reasons, I believe there is a case to be made for an overhaul of category tags. My personal opinion is that we should get rid of super-keys altogether and instead promote all categories to keys with empty values: amenity=reception_desk becomes reception_desk=, highway=track becomes track=, aerialway=gondola becomes gondola=, barrier=city_wall becomes city_wall=, historic=city_gate becomes city_gate=, sport=volleyball becomes volleyball=, etc. And power=line becomes line= and barrier=line becomes, uh, wait a minute. It is not so simple, even leaving aside the fact that many programs would simply dismiss your empty values. Now, I don't actually think such an overhaul is currently feasible given the massive burden it would put on the database system. However, it might be something to think about for the future. I think that in theory what you call super keys is a good thing to have because it gives you a layered level of understanding. For example, if someone tags natural=water water=lake lake=turlough then you have a chance to understand this is a natural feature (and not man-made) even if you don't know what a lake is; you can understand this is a lake (and not a reservoir) even if you don't know what a turlough is; or you're so much into water bodies that you can actually understand the full message. If the tag was instead the space-saving turlough= then you'd be stumped without recourse to the giant tag dictionary that explains to your renderer that something tagged turlough= should perhaps be drawn in a blue-ish colour. Matter in a nutshell: Certainly the way we use these super tags has a lot of historical baggage but I don't think it is a stupid idea per se, *especially* if your goal is (like you're claiming yours to be) making tags easy for mappers. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Super-keys are evil
On Feb 25, 2015, at 3:55 AM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: The editing tools have a role here, with iD leading the way. With iD one writes the thing, for example a bathroom. The editor matches this to available tags and lets you choose. It even hides the actual tag name (amenity=toilet most likely in this case). Thus with a good set of aliases, the actual tag name becomes unimportant to remember. This is really true - sidewalk is an alias (?) to footpath, and crosswalk is an alias to footpath + crossing=zebra It's really convenient, and I don't have to remember to even hit a radio button or a choice from a drop down menu to select what kind of crossing it is. As long as the terms are not ambiguous, it is a great abstraction of the tags. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
