Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-11 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 at 22:44, António Madeira via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> In Portugal, the Government's employment centre gets you a job and gives
> you professional formation. It has  a list of all the companies seeking
> for workers and distribute them based a very specific system.
>

That's about the same as the UK.  There's a website listing available
jobs which you can use whether you're employed or unemployed and the
lists of jobs in the centres themselves have largely disappeared.

The money that comes from the Government to people without job is given
> via Social Security, it's not handed by the employment centre.


That's how it used to be in the UK.  The Benefits Agency used to
handled the money side of things.  But it was almost always in the
same building as the Jobcentre.  Then the government realized
it could almalgamate the two, so the Jobcentre became the
Jobcentre+.

Given these arguments, I'm getting more inclined to use
> office=government + government=employment_centre
>

I like employment_centre more than employment_agency for
the government-run endeavour.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-11 Thread António Madeira via Tagging

In Portugal, the Government's employment centre gets you a job and gives
you professional formation. It has  a list of all the companies seeking
for workers and distribute them based a very specific system.
The money that comes from the Government to people without job is given
via Social Security, it's not handed by the employment centre. The
function of the employment centre is only to get people a job and give
them professional formation if needed.
Given these arguments, I'm getting more inclined to use
office=government + government=employment_centre


Às 18:23 de 11/10/2020, Graeme Fitzpatrick escreveu:

We have a Govt Dept that controls everything, decides whether you will
be paid Unemployment Benefits (under a number of different names), but
does nothing about you actually getting a job. This would be an
office=government.

You then have to register with a private Job Agency that will
supposedly help you find a job, but which don't actually do much :-(,
but which would be mapped as an office=employment_agency. They don't
pay you, but are themselves paid by the Govt for "helping" you.




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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-11 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 05:14, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 at 19:46, António Madeira via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> Although an employment centre is not an office that governs, like Tom
>> Pfeifer wrote, (nevertheless we could argue they govern/regulate the
>> unemployed and the work market)
>>
>
> If employing civil servants to take money from people is
> government then so is employing civil servants to give money to the
> unemployed.
>
>
>> it operates very differently from an employment agency (the difference in
>> the name is not incidental)
>>
>
The Oz set-up is similarish.

We have a Govt Dept that controls everything, decides whether you will be
paid Unemployment Benefits (under a number of different names), but does
nothing about you actually getting a job. This would be an
office=government.

You then have to register with a private Job Agency that will supposedly
help you find a job, but which don't actually do much :-(, but which would
be mapped as an office=employment_agency. They don't pay you, but are
themselves paid by the Govt for "helping" you.

As per everything, you're never going to get a one-size fits all answer!

The day I can claim unemployment benefits from employment agencies
> is the day I look very carefully at which of them is going to give me
> the most money before I choose to sign up with one.
>

We've got the same basic amount across the board, but with variations due
to your age, married / single, renting a premises etc

Nevertheless, office=government  + government=employment_agency may be as
> close as we're going to get
>

That sounds like the closest match to the OPs question

without many weeks of arguments on the list.
>

*Nooo *

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-11 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 at 19:46, António Madeira via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

Although an employment centre is not an office that governs, like Tom
> Pfeifer wrote, (nevertheless we could argue they govern/regulate the
> unemployed and the work market)
>

That depends how you define government.  Is the department that collects/
enforces income tax government or not?  I'd say it is, not just because it
acts
to enforce and not just because without the monies it collects the
government
could not operate.  If employing civil servants to take money from people is
government then so is employing civil servants to give money to the
unemployed.


> it operates very differently from an employment agency (the difference in
> the name is not incidental)
>

The day I can claim unemployment benefits from employment agencies
is the day I look very carefully at which of them is going to give me
the most money before I choose to sign up with one.


> and I think that should be stated or even differentiated in the wiki.
>

I think we got deflected by considering Jobcentres (or whatever they're
called elsewhere) to be employment agencies.  That is only part of
what they do.  Nevertheless, office=government  +
government=employment_agency may be as close as we're going to get
without many weeks of arguments on the list.

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-11 Thread António Madeira via Tagging

Portugal has a very similar social structure from that of England's , so
I relate to what you wrote.
Although an employment centre is not an office that governs, like Tom
Pfeifer wrote, (nevertheless we could argue they govern/regulate the
unemployed and the work market) it operates very differently from an
employment agency (the difference in the name is not incidental) and I
think that should be stated or even differentiated in the wiki.


Às 09:07 de 11/10/2020, Paul Allen escreveu:

Sigh.  Managed to hit some keystroke combination on this damned
laptop that triggered a send.  Now what I intended to write...

On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 at 02:16, António Madeira via Tagging
mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:

Anyway, maybe the wiki could be updated to reflect the entire scope of
the office=employment_agency

Perhaps.  With qualifications and exceptions.  In the UK there were
differences between Jobcentres and employment agencies. Those
differences became more pronounced when Jobcentres turned
into Jobcentres+ (or is that Jobcentre+s?).

Employment agencies are happy to have you on their books even if you are
currently employed and many will notify you by e-mail if suitable
opportunities
arise; Jobcentres deal with the unemployed who are looking for work.

If you sign up with an employment agency you do not receive any
money for doing so; signing up with a Jobcentre is how you
qualify for unemployment benefit.

[Now the new/fixed stuff]

Jobcentres merged with the Benefits Agency (which handled benefits
other than unemployment benefits) and so pay out money for more
than just unemployment; employment agencies don't pay out any of
those benefits either.

Jobcentres are staffed by civil servants and are part of the
Department of Work and Pensions (a branch of government);
employment agencies are non-governmental.

I'd say UK Jobcentre+s are definitely office=government rather
than office=employment_agency because they ARE government
offices and do things that employment agencies do not.
I'd settle for government=employment_agency even though
they do more than just that.

--
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-11 Thread Paul Allen
Sigh.  Managed to hit some keystroke combination on this damned
laptop that triggered a send.  Now what I intended to write...

On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 at 02:16, António Madeira via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

Anyway, maybe the wiki could be updated to reflect the entire scope of
> the office=employment_agency
>

Perhaps.  With qualifications and exceptions.  In the UK there were
differences between Jobcentres and employment agencies.  Those
differences became more pronounced when Jobcentres turned
into Jobcentres+ (or is that Jobcentre+s?).

Employment agencies are happy to have you on their books even if you are
currently employed and many will notify you by e-mail if suitable
opportunities
arise; Jobcentres deal with the unemployed who are looking for work.

If you sign up with an employment agency you do not receive any
money for doing so; signing up with a Jobcentre is how you
qualify for unemployment benefit.

[Now the new/fixed stuff]

Jobcentres merged with the Benefits Agency (which handled benefits
other than unemployment benefits) and so pay out money for more
than just unemployment; employment agencies don't pay out any of
those benefits either.

Jobcentres are staffed by civil servants and are part of the
Department of Work and Pensions (a branch of government);
employment agencies are non-governmental.

I'd say UK Jobcentre+s are definitely office=government rather
than office=employment_agency because they ARE government
offices and do things that employment agencies do not.
I'd settle for government=employment_agency even though
they do more than just that.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-11 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 11 Oct 2020 at 02:16, António Madeira via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
> Anyway, maybe the wiki could be updated to reflect the entire scope of
> the office=employment_agency
>

Perhaps.  With qualifications and exceptions.  In the UK there were
differences between Jobcentres and employment agencies.  Those
differences became more pronounced when Jobcentres turned
into Jobcentres+ (or is that Jobcentre+s?).

Employment agencies are happy to have you on their books even if you are
currently employed and many will notify you by e-mail if suitable
opportunities
arise; Jobcentres deal with the unemployed who are looking for work.

If you sign up with an employment agency you do not receive any
money for doing so; signing up with a Jobcentre is how you
qualify for unemployment benefit.

Jobcentres merged with the Benefits Agency (which handled benefits
benefits such as discretionary gran
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-10 Thread António Madeira via Tagging

Seen by that perspective, I have to agree.
Anyway, maybe the wiki could be updated to reflect the entire scope of
the office=employment_agency

Thanks.


Às 06:32 de 10/10/2020, Tom Pfeifer escreveu:

As Volker said, office=employment_agency is the established tag.

office=government is wrong, since the employees in the job centre do
not govern.

The government might be the operator of the job centre, which can be
expressed in the operator tag,
e.g. operator=Government of Example County

tom

On 10.10.2020 09:21, Volker Schmidt wrote:

If you go to the (admittedly, very short) wiki page for
office=employment_agency, you find that the picture illustrating the
tag shows a German "jobcenter" of the Agentur fuer Arbeit, which is a
government agency.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesagentur_f%C3%BCr_Arbeit>
So I think your starting assumption is not reflecting the actual tagging
This means also that your idea of creating a new "government" related
tag would be in conflict with the established tagging, at least in
Germany

Volker
(Italy)


 > On 10/10/2020 00:09, António Madeira via Tagging wrote:
 >> I was searching for a way of tagging a government job centre
and I found
 >> there's no suitable way of doing this.
 >> There's office=employment_agency which doesn't seem to fit
here, cause
 >> it seems to correspond to private companies who work with
this kind of
 >> services.


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-10 Thread Tom Pfeifer

As Volker said, office=employment_agency is the established tag.

office=government is wrong, since the employees in the job centre do not govern.

The government might be the operator of the job centre, which can be expressed 
in the operator tag,
e.g. operator=Government of Example County

tom

On 10.10.2020 09:21, Volker Schmidt wrote:
If you go to the (admittedly, very short) wiki page for office=employment_agency, you find that the 
picture illustrating the tag shows a German "jobcenter" of the Agentur fuer Arbeit, which is a 
government agency. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesagentur_f%C3%BCr_Arbeit>

So I think your starting assumption is not reflecting the actual tagging
This means also that your idea of creating a new "government" related tag would be in conflict with 
the established tagging, at least in Germany


Volker
(Italy)


 > On 10/10/2020 00:09, António Madeira via Tagging wrote:
 >> I was searching for a way of tagging a government job centre and I found
 >> there's no suitable way of doing this.
 >> There's office=employment_agency which doesn't seem to fit here, cause
 >> it seems to correspond to private companies who work with this kind of
 >> services.


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-10 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 10. Oct 2020, at 09:32, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> If you go to the (admittedly, very short) wiki page for 
> office=employment_agency, you find that the picture illustrating the tag 
> shows a German "jobcenter" of the Agentur fuer Arbeit, which is a government 
> agency.
> So I think your starting assumption is not reflecting the actual tagging
> This means also that your idea of creating a new "government" related tag 
> would be in conflict with the established tagging, at least in Germany


+1, I would also think office=employment_agency is a suitable tag.


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-10 Thread Volker Schmidt
If you go to the (admittedly, very short) wiki page for
office=employment_agency, you find that the picture illustrating the tag
shows a German "jobcenter" of the Agentur fuer Arbeit, which is a government
agency. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesagentur_f%C3%BCr_Arbeit>
So I think your starting assumption is not reflecting the actual tagging
This means also that your idea of creating a new "government" related tag
would be in conflict with the established tagging, at least in Germany

Volker
(Italy)


> On 10/10/2020 00:09, António Madeira via Tagging wrote:
> >> I was searching for a way of tagging a government job centre and I found
> >> there's no suitable way of doing this.
> >> There's office=employment_agency which doesn't seem to fit here, cause
> >> it seems to correspond to private companies who work with this kind of
> >> services.
>

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-09 Thread António Madeira via Tagging

I've seen that on the taginfo website, but I don't think there's need
for another amenity, with such good scheme already in hand.
The office=government has these explicit subtags in the wiki:
    government=ministry
    government=prosecutor
    government=tax
    government=register_office
    government=data_protection

I think it's just a matter of thinking about the correct value here.



Às 20:30 de 09/10/2020, Jeremy Harris escreveu:

On 10/10/2020 00:09, António Madeira via Tagging wrote:

I was searching for a way of tagging a government job centre and I found
there's no suitable way of doing this.
There's office=employment_agency which doesn't seem to fit here, cause
it seems to correspond to private companies who work with this kind of
services.

I thought about using the office=government scheme, with the subtag
government=job_centre.
You think this is ok or is there a better way?

My local one has amenity=job_centre - for which there is no doc...



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-09 Thread António Madeira via Tagging

You can not duplicate tags on the same feature...


Às 20:29 de 09/10/2020, Graeme Fitzpatrick escreveu:




On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 at 09:12, António Madeira via Tagging
mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:

There's office=employment_agency which doesn't seem to fit here, cause
it seems to correspond to private companies who work with this kind of
services.

I thought about using the office=government scheme,


How about simply double it up to
office=government + office=employment_agency ?

The name of "Federal Employment Service" or whatever should then be
enough to dispel any doubts!

Thanks

Graeme


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-09 Thread Jeremy Harris
On 10/10/2020 00:09, António Madeira via Tagging wrote:
> I was searching for a way of tagging a government job centre and I found
> there's no suitable way of doing this.
> There's office=employment_agency which doesn't seem to fit here, cause
> it seems to correspond to private companies who work with this kind of
> services.
> 
> I thought about using the office=government scheme, with the subtag
> government=job_centre.
> You think this is ok or is there a better way?

My local one has amenity=job_centre - for which there is no doc...
-- 
Cheers,
  Jeremy

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-09 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Sat, 10 Oct 2020 at 09:12, António Madeira via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> There's office=employment_agency which doesn't seem to fit here, cause
> it seems to correspond to private companies who work with this kind of
> services.
>
> I thought about using the office=government scheme,


How about simply double it up to
office=government + office=employment_agency ?

The name of "Federal Employment Service" or whatever should then be enough
to dispel any doubts!

Thanks

Graeme
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[Tagging] Tagging a government job centre

2020-10-09 Thread António Madeira via Tagging

Hi there.

I was searching for a way of tagging a government job centre and I found
there's no suitable way of doing this.
There's office=employment_agency which doesn't seem to fit here, cause
it seems to correspond to private companies who work with this kind of
services.

I thought about using the office=government scheme, with the subtag
government=job_centre.
You think this is ok or is there a better way?

Regards.


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