Re: [Tagging] Tagging for an American Wild & Scenic river

[Dave Swarthout]

Here's the tagging I used for the Unalakleet River in western Alaska. Only
the upper reaches of this river are designated Wild and Scenic. The way for
the protected portion is included in a large shapefile I downloaded some
time ago that contains all the Wild  rivers in the U.S. I invented
the protection_title because it seems so logical but I invite ideas about
this tag and other tagging scenarios. I intend to use this as a model for
the other W rivers in Alaska, of which there are probably 15 or 20

name=Unalakleet River
operator=Bureau of Land Management, Anchorage Field Office
protected=perpetuity
protection_title=Wild and Scenic River
related_law=Public Law 96-487 (ANILCA)
scenic=yes
site_ownership=federal
source:position=DigitalGlobe;BLM shapefile
waterway=river
website=http://www.rivers.gov/rivers/unalakleet.php
wikidata=Q763999
wikipedia=en:Unalakleet River

Comments, suggestions?


On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> On 5 February 2018 at 06:11, Kevin Kenny 
> wrote:
>
>> It's not clear what The Right Thing might be when
>> a Wild River is mostly embedded within a Wilderness Area
>> (protect_class=1b); it winds up appearing as if the river corridor loses
>> protection as it transits the class 1, but that's surely not the case,
>>
>
> You wouldn't think so, would you?
>
> You'd think that if the river enters a higher rated protected area, then
> the higher rating would apply to the river as well?
>
> Any idea of how "big" an area the Wild River protection covers? eg is it
> just the water itself / the river banks / "50m" back on each side / a strip
> "1k" wide etc?
>
> Is it possible to add the =protected tag to the waterway itself, or draw a
> long skinny box along the protected length of the river concerned, stopping
> as it enters a class 1 park then re-starting on the other side - pretty
> time-consuming though :-(
>
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>


-- 
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for an American Wild & Scenic river

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 5 February 2018 at 06:11, Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

> It's not clear what The Right Thing might be when
> a Wild River is mostly embedded within a Wilderness Area
> (protect_class=1b); it winds up appearing as if the river corridor loses
> protection as it transits the class 1, but that's surely not the case,
>

You wouldn't think so, would you?

You'd think that if the river enters a higher rated protected area, then
the higher rating would apply to the river as well?

Any idea of how "big" an area the Wild River protection covers? eg is it
just the water itself / the river banks / "50m" back on each side / a strip
"1k" wide etc?

Is it possible to add the =protected tag to the waterway itself, or draw a
long skinny box along the protected length of the river concerned, stopping
as it enters a class 1 park then re-starting on the other side - pretty
time-consuming though :-(
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for an American Wild & Scenic river

[Kevin Kenny]

On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 5:35 AM, Matej Lieskovský  wrote:

> Brad is right: Wild, Scenic and Recreational rivers are already
> defined as protect_class=5. Use the protection_title tag to specify
> the exact type of protection.


It's slightly more complicated than that, which is why I haven't got a
really
good start on it. It's not clear what The Right Thing might be when
a Wild River is mostly embedded within a Wilderness Area
(protect_class=1b); it winds up appearing as if the river corridor loses
protection as it transits the class 1, but that's surely not the case,
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for an American Wild & Scenic river

[Dave Swarthout]

Thanks for the replies. I'm away from home watching a tennis tournament so
pardon me for not replying promptly. I received an answer in the Help Forum
that was similar to Brad's reply here about tagging the river corridor with
protect_class=5, etc., and that sounds good but I don't have any way short
of digging into multiple U.S. government websites to determine the actual
boundaries of those corridors and frankly don't want to do it. I've
struggled with them before and prefer to leave that sort of research to
people with more patience than me.

Could one legitimately apply the protect_class, protection_title to ways
rather than just areas?

Several people used the word designation or designated in their replies
too. The Wiki would, at first glance, tend to eliminate the use of that tag
for a river because it is aimed squarely at transportation or modes of
transportation:

"The *designated* value, when used with a mode of transport key, indicates
that a route has been specially designated (typically by a government) for
use by a particular mode (or modes) of transport. Typically it is used on
ways legally dedicated to specific modes of travel by a law or by the rules
of traffic."

Yet, "Wild and Scenic" is a designation in its own right. And one might
also conclude, correctly or not, that by having this special designation,
modes of transport along such rivers are indeed restricted. In addition,
the paragraph from the Wiki above defines *designated* when used as a *value.
*Mappers have used *designated* as a *key* too (see Taginfo
) even if some of
those uses not might be strictly correct. I think were I to suggest using a
tag of, for example, designated=wild_and_scenic it would run into
opposition. Still, it seems like a useful point to explore.

I have used scenic=yes on highways so designated (there's that word again)
but not rivers, however, I see no reason it couldn't be used on them as
well.

Again, thanks.

Dave


On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 5:35 PM, Matej Lieskovský  wrote:

> Brad is right: Wild, Scenic and Recreational rivers are already
> defined as protect_class=5. Use the protection_title tag to specify
> the exact type of protection.
> Cheers,
> Matej
>
> On 3 February 2018 at 06:56, Brad Neuhauser 
> wrote:
> > "Wild and Scenic River" is specifically mentioned on the wiki as
> > boundary=protected_area, protect_class=5. Look at the table for
> > nature-protected areas, and scroll down to the US section. Cheers, Brad
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 10:47 PM, Kevin Kenny <
> kevin.b.kenny+...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 9:54 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick <
> graemefi...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 3 February 2018 at 12:00, Kevin Kenny 
> >>> wrote:
> 
>  On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:44 PM, Dave Swarthout <
> daveswarth...@gmail.com>
>  wrote:
> >
> > I asked this question last week of the OSM Help community:
> >
> > I'm looking for tagging that will indicate that a particular river in
> > the United States is a "Wild and Scenic River" as defined by the
> Wild &
> > Scenic Rivers Act. I have searched with Overpass for waterway=* that
> also
> > has a scenic=yes tag but it turned up no results. Can anyone provide
> some
> > guidance and/or examples?
> >
>  Like you, I know of the Wild, Scenic and Recreational Rivers
>  designations.
>  Like you, I lack a good way to tag them.
>  If nobody else has come up with anything - and do let's also ask on
>  talk-us,
>  since this is a peculiarly American designation - then let's invent
>  something
>  and Wikify it.
> 
> >>> Without knowing the details of just what a "Wild Scenic" river is,
> could
> >>> you use the nature=conservation tag in conjunction with waterway=?
> >>
> >>
> >> Wild and Scenic Rivers are linear protected areas designated by statute
> in
> >> the US.  https://www.rivers.gov/
> >>
> >> Designating the waterway itself is a good start, but Wild and Scenic
> >> Rivers (also Recreational Rivers in New York State) generally also have
> >> associated corridors that should have some sort of
> boundary=protected_area
> >> (and we can debate what protect_class might be appropriate) associated
> with
> >> them.
> >>
> >> I'm aware of several rivers that are so designated that I've visited,
> but
> >> I've not done the necessary research to figure out how to represent
> them and
> >> their corridors. The Federal program has downloadable Public Domain
> data on
> >> its web site that I have not examined.
> >>
> >> My home state of New York actually has very few of them that are
> Federally
> >> designated - the Delaware, on the Pennsylvania line. This is because the
> >> State anticipated the Federal government and came up with its own
> >> designations http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/32739.html and came 

Re: [Tagging] Tagging for an American Wild & Scenic river

[Matej Lieskovský]

Brad is right: Wild, Scenic and Recreational rivers are already
defined as protect_class=5. Use the protection_title tag to specify
the exact type of protection.
Cheers,
Matej

On 3 February 2018 at 06:56, Brad Neuhauser  wrote:
> "Wild and Scenic River" is specifically mentioned on the wiki as
> boundary=protected_area, protect_class=5. Look at the table for
> nature-protected areas, and scroll down to the US section. Cheers, Brad
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 10:47 PM, Kevin Kenny 
> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 9:54 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 3 February 2018 at 12:00, Kevin Kenny 
>>> wrote:

 On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:44 PM, Dave Swarthout 
 wrote:
>
> I asked this question last week of the OSM Help community:
>
> I'm looking for tagging that will indicate that a particular river in
> the United States is a "Wild and Scenic River" as defined by the Wild &
> Scenic Rivers Act. I have searched with Overpass for waterway=* that also
> has a scenic=yes tag but it turned up no results. Can anyone provide some
> guidance and/or examples?
>
 Like you, I know of the Wild, Scenic and Recreational Rivers
 designations.
 Like you, I lack a good way to tag them.
 If nobody else has come up with anything - and do let's also ask on
 talk-us,
 since this is a peculiarly American designation - then let's invent
 something
 and Wikify it.

>>> Without knowing the details of just what a "Wild Scenic" river is, could
>>> you use the nature=conservation tag in conjunction with waterway=?
>>
>>
>> Wild and Scenic Rivers are linear protected areas designated by statute in
>> the US.  https://www.rivers.gov/
>>
>> Designating the waterway itself is a good start, but Wild and Scenic
>> Rivers (also Recreational Rivers in New York State) generally also have
>> associated corridors that should have some sort of boundary=protected_area
>> (and we can debate what protect_class might be appropriate) associated with
>> them.
>>
>> I'm aware of several rivers that are so designated that I've visited, but
>> I've not done the necessary research to figure out how to represent them and
>> their corridors. The Federal program has downloadable Public Domain data on
>> its web site that I have not examined.
>>
>> My home state of New York actually has very few of them that are Federally
>> designated - the Delaware, on the Pennsylvania line. This is because the
>> State anticipated the Federal government and came up with its own
>> designations http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/32739.html and came up with its
>> own program to administer them http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/6033.html.
>>
>> The Federal program is not universally loved:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/66934423@N00/10605220
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for an American Wild & Scenic river

[Steve Doerr]

On 03/02/2018 02:00, Kevin Kenny wrote:
On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:44 PM, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:



I'm looking for tagging that will indicate that a particular river
in the United States is a "Wild and Scenic River" as defined by
the Wild & Scenic Rivers Act.




this is a peculiarly American designation


There's always the designation tag: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:designation


--
Steve


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for an American Wild & Scenic river

[Brad Neuhauser]

"Wild and Scenic River" is specifically mentioned on the wiki as
boundary=protected_area, protect_class=5. Look at the table for
nature-protected areas
,
and scroll down to the US section. Cheers, Brad

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 10:47 PM, Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 9:54 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>> On 3 February 2018 at 12:00, Kevin Kenny 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:44 PM, Dave Swarthout 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I asked this question last week of the OSM Help community:

 I'm looking for tagging that will indicate that a particular river in
 the United States is a "Wild and Scenic River" as defined by the Wild &
 Scenic Rivers Act. I have searched with Overpass for waterway=* that also
 has a scenic=yes tag but it turned up no results. Can anyone provide some
 guidance and/or examples?

 Like you, I know of the Wild, Scenic and Recreational Rivers
>>> designations.
>>> Like you, I lack a good way to tag them.
>>> If nobody else has come up with anything - and do let's also ask on
>>> talk-us,
>>> since this is a peculiarly American designation - then let's invent
>>> something
>>> and Wikify it.
>>>
>>> Without knowing the details of just what a "Wild Scenic" river is, could
>> you use the nature=conservation tag in conjunction with waterway=?
>>
>
> Wild and Scenic Rivers are linear protected areas designated by statute in
> the US.  https://www.rivers.gov/
>
> Designating the waterway itself is a good start, but Wild and Scenic
> Rivers (also Recreational Rivers in New York State) generally also have
> associated corridors that should have some sort of boundary=protected_area
> (and we can debate what protect_class might be appropriate) associated with
> them.
>
> I'm aware of several rivers that are so designated that I've visited, but
> I've not done the necessary research to figure out how to represent them
> and their corridors. The Federal program has downloadable Public Domain
> data on its web site that I have not examined.
>
> My home state of New York actually has very few of them that are Federally
> designated - the Delaware, on the Pennsylvania line. This is because the
> State anticipated the Federal government and came up with its own
> designations http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/32739.html and came up with
> its own program to administer them http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/6033.html
> .
>
> The Federal program is not universally loved: https://www.flickr.com/
> photos/66934423@N00/10605220
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for an American Wild & Scenic river

[Kevin Kenny]

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 9:54 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> On 3 February 2018 at 12:00, Kevin Kenny 
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:44 PM, Dave Swarthout 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I asked this question last week of the OSM Help community:
>>>
>>> I'm looking for tagging that will indicate that a particular river in
>>> the United States is a "Wild and Scenic River" as defined by the Wild &
>>> Scenic Rivers Act. I have searched with Overpass for waterway=* that also
>>> has a scenic=yes tag but it turned up no results. Can anyone provide some
>>> guidance and/or examples?
>>>
>>> Like you, I know of the Wild, Scenic and Recreational Rivers
>> designations.
>> Like you, I lack a good way to tag them.
>> If nobody else has come up with anything - and do let's also ask on
>> talk-us,
>> since this is a peculiarly American designation - then let's invent
>> something
>> and Wikify it.
>>
>> Without knowing the details of just what a "Wild Scenic" river is, could
> you use the nature=conservation tag in conjunction with waterway=?
>

Wild and Scenic Rivers are linear protected areas designated by statute in
the US.  https://www.rivers.gov/

Designating the waterway itself is a good start, but Wild and Scenic Rivers
(also Recreational Rivers in New York State) generally also have associated
corridors that should have some sort of boundary=protected_area (and we can
debate what protect_class might be appropriate) associated with them.

I'm aware of several rivers that are so designated that I've visited, but
I've not done the necessary research to figure out how to represent them
and their corridors. The Federal program has downloadable Public Domain
data on its web site that I have not examined.

My home state of New York actually has very few of them that are Federally
designated - the Delaware, on the Pennsylvania line. This is because the
State anticipated the Federal government and came up with its own
designations http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/32739.html and came up with its
own program to administer them http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/6033.html.

The Federal program is not universally loved:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/66934423@N00/10605220
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for an American Wild & Scenic river

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 3 February 2018 at 12:00, Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:44 PM, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
>> I asked this question last week of the OSM Help community:
>>
>> I'm looking for tagging that will indicate that a particular river in the
>> United States is a "Wild and Scenic River" as defined by the Wild & Scenic
>> Rivers Act. I have searched with Overpass for waterway=* that also has a
>> scenic=yes tag but it turned up no results. Can anyone provide some
>> guidance and/or examples?
>>
>> Like you, I know of the Wild, Scenic and Recreational Rivers designations.
> Like you, I lack a good way to tag them.
> If nobody else has come up with anything - and do let's also ask on
> talk-us,
> since this is a peculiarly American designation - then let's invent
> something
> and Wikify it.
>
> Without knowing the details of just what a "Wild Scenic" river is, could
you use the nature=conservation tag in conjunction with waterway=?
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for an American Wild & Scenic river

[Warin]

On 03-Feb-18 01:00 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:
On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:44 PM, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:


I asked this question last week of the OSM Help community:

I'm looking for tagging that will indicate that a particular river
in the United States is a "Wild and Scenic River" as defined by
the Wild & Scenic Rivers Act. I have searched with Overpass for
waterway=* that also has a scenic=yes tag but it turned up no
results. Can anyone provide some guidance and/or examples?

I got one response that talked about tagging the area surrounding
such rivers, a wilderness corridor of sorts, which was useful but
beyond the scope of this first inquiry. I'm looking for a way to
tag the river itself.

I'm turning to the tagging community now for advice.


Like you, I know of the Wild, Scenic and Recreational Rivers designations.
Like you, I lack a good way to tag them.
If nobody else has come up with anything - and do let's also ask on 
talk-us,
since this is a peculiarly American designation - then let's invent 
something

and Wikify it.


I see no reason not to use scenic=yes on a waterway.
It is only an unapproved tag that is 'in use' ... so its use on 
waterways is a simple extension.


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging for an American Wild & Scenic river

[Kevin Kenny]

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:44 PM, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> I asked this question last week of the OSM Help community:
>
> I'm looking for tagging that will indicate that a particular river in the
> United States is a "Wild and Scenic River" as defined by the Wild & Scenic
> Rivers Act. I have searched with Overpass for waterway=* that also has a
> scenic=yes tag but it turned up no results. Can anyone provide some
> guidance and/or examples?
>
> I got one response that talked about tagging the area surrounding such
> rivers, a wilderness corridor of sorts, which was useful but beyond the
> scope of this first inquiry. I'm looking for a way to tag the river itself.
>
> I'm turning to the tagging community now for advice.
>

Like you, I know of the Wild, Scenic and Recreational Rivers designations.
Like you, I lack a good way to tag them.
If nobody else has come up with anything - and do let's also ask on talk-us,
since this is a peculiarly American designation - then let's invent
something
and Wikify it.
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[Tagging] Tagging for an American Wild & Scenic river

[Dave Swarthout]

I asked this question last week of the OSM Help community:

I'm looking for tagging that will indicate that a particular river in the
United States is a "Wild and Scenic River" as defined by the Wild & Scenic
Rivers Act. I have searched with Overpass for waterway=* that also has a
scenic=yes tag but it turned up no results. Can anyone provide some
guidance and/or examples?

I got one response that talked about tagging the area surrounding such
rivers, a wilderness corridor of sorts, which was useful but beyond the
scope of this first inquiry. I'm looking for a way to tag the river itself.

I'm turning to the tagging community now for advice.

Cheers,

Dave
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