Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Jan 2019, at 11:05, Konrad Lischka  wrote:
> 
> (1) tagging charitable operators of an amenity=kindergarten
> operator:type=charitable
> 
> and
> operator:type=religious (according to 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:amenity%3Dkindergarten)


this doesn’t seem to work well, being recognized as charitable is orthogonal to 
being related to a religious community, so this is conflicting in certain cases.

Besides that there is no definition what “charitable” means. And that 
operator:type=religious according to the German translation of the wiki would 
not even be applicable for your caritas example. And business and private are 
mostly overlapping. I suggest the Germans discuss this page, the additions 
don’t seem mature.


Cheers, Martin 



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[Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Konrad Lischka]

I try to sum up what I took away from the discussion in regard to my original 
questions: 

(1) tagging charitable operators of an amenity=kindergarten
operator:type=charitable

and
operator:type=religious (according to 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:amenity%3Dkindergarten)

At least in Germany some Kindergartens belonging to religious organisations 
have different policies to prefer based on religion (and other criteria like 
siblings), but no policies to exclude based on religion as far as I know. See: 
https://www.kita.de/wissen/katholischer-kindergarten/
https://rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/duesseldorf/kita-platz-nur-bei-richtiger-konfession_aid-21330987

(2) independent charitable entities belonging to umbrella organisations
operator:umbrella_organisation=
NOT organisation=

Thanks for your thoughts!

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Most mosques here in Indonesia have a separate men and women’s section.
(Actually the churches do too!)
On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 9:41 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 9. Jan 2019, at 19:11, Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
> >
> > I started discussion how to tag this some time ago, with
> access=adherents as the best candidate
> > to tag that
>
>
> probably also woman=no
>
> Cheers, Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Jan 2019, at 19:11, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> I started discussion how to tag this some time ago, with access=adherents as 
> the best candidate
> to tag that


probably also woman=no

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 18:13, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> Jan 7, 2019, 11:58 PM by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com:
>


> Nonmuslims are forbidden to enter nearly all mosques in Morocco.
>
> I started discussion how to tag this some time ago, with access=adherents
> as the best candidate
> to tag that.
>

Sounds good to me.  Better than access=customers, which is about as close
as we can come
with existing values.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Jan 7, 2019, 11:58 PM by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com:

> “You may find that a Mosque may not be happy if a non-Muslim walks in”
>
> I’m not aware of any mosques that prohibit non-Muslims
>
>
Nonmuslims are forbidden to enter nearly all mosques in Morocco.

I started discussion how to tag this some time ago, with access=adherents as 
the best candidate
to tag that.

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Marc Gemis]

I was referring to the 'organisation'.

On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 2:40 PM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
>
> Am Mi., 9. Jan. 2019 um 05:17 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis :
>>
>> While I was first thinking of brand like Warin, I think this is the
>> better solution. Just as, we do not map the share holders of companies
>> (even when they are other companies) on shops, man_made=works object
>> etc., we typically do not map properties of the operator (besides
>> brand).
>
>
>
>
> I am not sure which property of the kindergarten you are refering to with 
> this text, but if it is about the operator being related to a religious 
> entity I would reject the idea that this could be seen as an isolated 
> property of the operator and isn't also a property of the facility.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 9. Jan. 2019 um 05:17 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis :

> While I was first thinking of brand like Warin, I think this is the
> better solution. Just as, we do not map the share holders of companies
> (even when they are other companies) on shops, man_made=works object
> etc., we typically do not map properties of the operator (besides
> brand).




I am not sure which property of the kindergarten you are refering to with
this text, but if it is about the operator being related to a religious
entity I would reject the idea that this could be seen as an isolated
property of the operator and isn't also a property of the facility.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Marc Gemis]

While I was first thinking of brand like Warin, I think this is the
better solution. Just as, we do not map the share holders of companies
(even when they are other companies) on shops, man_made=works object
etc., we typically do not map properties of the operator (besides
brand).

m.

On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 9:22 AM Topographe Fou  wrote:
>
> Personnaly I don't think I would map umbrella organisations... I would put 
> operator and operator:wikidata and let Wikidata update partnerships between 
> associations. It is not a property of the kindergarten, it is a property of 
> the operator.
>
> LeTopographeFou
>
>   Message original
> De: t.pfei...@computer.org
> Envoyé: 7 janvier 2019 11:14 PM
> À: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Répondre à: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Objet: Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable 
> operators and organisations
>
> On 07.01.2019 19:08, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> > if it is a religion related operator, I usually also add religion and 
> > denomination tags, i.e. in
> > your Caritas example it would be
> > religion=christian
> > denomination=catholic
> >
> >
> > I would not be sure how to handle this:
> > Are these "access" tags, in the sense that (in the example) the 
> > kindergarten only accepts Roman
> > Catholic children, or is it only indicating the religious background of the 
> > institution, but they
> > accept children with other religious backgrounds as well.
>
> I have never considered the 'religion' tag as an access tag. Typically I can 
> freely enter a PoW, and
> listen to the ceremony, without being a member of that community or believe 
> in that religion.
>
> Similarly, educational institutions in my scope mostly accept children with 
> different background, in
> particular if the receive state funding. E.g. Ireland, the majority of the 
> schools is operated by
> the catholic church, and as a recipient of public funding they have to accept 
> everybody, equally.
>
> Back to Konrad's question, any better ideas to tag the name of the operator's 
> umbrella organisation?
> I drafted:
> > operator:umbrella=* would be more suitable, or more self-explanatory but 
> > longer
> > operator:umbrella_organisation=*
>
> tom
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 7. Jan 2019, at 19:08, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> Are these "access" tags, in the sense that (in the example) the kindergarten 
> only accepts Roman Catholic children, or is it only indicating the religious 
> background of the institution, but they accept children with other religious 
> backgrounds as well.


these are not access tags, they convey a connection of a feature to a specific 
religion, similar as a place of worship. I would expect them to accept other 
children as well, but often the parents would not want to send their offspring 
to a place with a strong influence of a foreign religion. There are also edge 
cases, e.g. a kindergarten operated by scientology in Germany: scientology is 
not a charity in Germany and I am not sure whether they are recognized as a 
religion, but I think they are not, while in other countries they might be


Cheers, Martin 




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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Topographe Fou]

Personnaly I don't think I would map umbrella organisations... I would put 
operator and operator:wikidata and let Wikidata update partnerships between 
associations. It is not a property of the kindergarten, it is a property of the 
operator.

LeTopographeFou

  Message original  
De: t.pfei...@computer.org
Envoyé: 7 janvier 2019 11:14 PM
À: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Répondre à: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Objet: Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable 
operators and organisations

On 07.01.2019 19:08, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> if it is a religion related operator, I usually also add religion and 
>denomination tags, i.e. in
> your Caritas example it would be
> religion=christian
> denomination=catholic
> 
> 
> I would not be sure how to handle this:
> Are these "access" tags, in the sense that (in the example) the kindergarten 
> only accepts Roman 
> Catholic children, or is it only indicating the religious background of the 
> institution, but they 
> accept children with other religious backgrounds as well.

I have never considered the 'religion' tag as an access tag. Typically I can 
freely enter a PoW, and 
listen to the ceremony, without being a member of that community or believe in 
that religion.

Similarly, educational institutions in my scope mostly accept children with 
different background, in 
particular if the receive state funding. E.g. Ireland, the majority of the 
schools is operated by 
the catholic church, and as a recipient of public funding they have to accept 
everybody, equally.

Back to Konrad's question, any better ideas to tag the name of the operator's 
umbrella organisation?
I drafted:
> operator:umbrella=* would be more suitable, or more self-explanatory but 
> longer
> operator:umbrella_organisation=*

tom

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 09:53, Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 5:59 PM Joseph Eisenberg
> These rural religious groups are often as xenophobic as all get-out in the
> abstract, but when presented with a
> real, live, stranger who respects them, drop it almost at once and
> are unbelievably welcoming.
>

Doesn't that partially depend on the number of banjos playing in the
background? :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Warin]

On 08/01/19 02:53, Konrad Lischka wrote:

Hello,

the proper tagging of kindergarten grounds in Germany really makes me 
think.
The problem: We have a lot of operators that are independent 
charitable entities (for example registered associations see 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_association_(Germany) 
 but belong to charitable 
organisation too like Caritas or Paritätischer.


My solution would be:
amenity=kindergarten
operator=[Name of theregistered association]
operator:type=charitable
organisation=[organisation name like Caritas]

What do you think?

Two points:
(1) operator:type
=charitable is hardly used 
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/operator%3Atype=charitable)
=private_non_profit 
 seems 
more common 
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/operator%3Atype=private_non_profit)
but it is not the same. In Germany the tax authorities give the 
charitable status only to some organisation based on a few defined 
areas of work in the social or educational field. Non-Profis are more 
commons, but not the same.


(2) organisation=
The use seems to be rather uncodified
The is no https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:organisation
alltough there is some use: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/organisation





Many shops and fuel station are operated by some remote entity too. OSM 
uses "brand" for that.

Not certain that fits here but it is a similar situation?
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 5:59 PM Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:
>
> “You may find that a Mosque may not be happy if a non-Muslim walks in”
>
> I’m not aware of any mosques that prohibit non-Muslims, outside of the holy 
> cities (Mecca/Medina), though you would need to dress appropriately and act 
> respectfully.
>
> Jehovas’ Witnesses also welcome new people (aka potential converts).
>
> Mormon temples have places that are off-limits, however - even to ordinary 
> Mormons.
>
> There are some Hindu temples that prohibit women, and many places of worship 
> expect men and women to be segregated.
>
> So it’s not an access tag.


Yeah, an access tag is orthogonal to religion=*. Almost any religion
has some areas with restricted access.

Many cloisters, both Eastern and Roman have inner areas that are
accessible only to the vowed members of that community.

Most if not all Eastern churches have inner sanctuaries that are
entered only by ordained clergy of at least the rank of deacon, and
close doors or draw curtains to hide the most sacred moments of their
liturgies from the view of even the congregation.

Many religions have various concepts of ritual purity, and
non-adherents may defile the house unless they conform with particular
requirements. (Some of these have outer regions of their houses of
worship where believers can conduct various purification rituals
before entering the sanctuaries.)

Many religions have services, or portions of services, that are open
to all, but specific rites that are reserved to the initiates.

In summary, access=* cannot be determined at all from religion=*



General off-topic comments:

For almost any faith, taking the attitude, "I am not of your people. I
do not yet know your God. Can you teach me?" works wonders. "What must
one do to respect the house?" "What of your ceremonies may someone who
is not a committed member attend?" "Is there anything in particular
that I might not know of that could give offense?"

For a mosque, add questions like: "Can you teach me to make wudu? Can
I begin to learn the words of as-salat? May I listen to the Quran?"

For a synagogue, I already sport a scruffy beard, so if I don a
kippah, I'm usually not suspect. I can ask: "Is it your custom that
all must wear tallit (or tefilin) in the sanctuary, and if so, is it
possible for me to borrow one (a pair)?"

Even farther off-topic:

If a long-distance hiker wants to be treated like royalty in most of
rural America, it works wonders to ask a shop clerk, postmaster, or
other contact on a Saturday: "Where do you worship? I'm afraid all I
have is what's in my backpack, so I won't be able to dress properly
for a church service, does your community welcome travelers? Is there
anywhere in this town that you'd recommend to buy a meal/stay the
night? Oh, God bless you!" If you're sincere, it's not inconceivable
that you'll be treated to a home-cooked meal, spend the night in some
church member's spare room, and have the opportunity to clean yourself
and your gear, and be the center of attention at the coffee hour
following Sunday services. These rural religious groups are often as
xenophobic as all get-out in the abstract, but when presented with a
real, live, stranger who respects them, drop it almost at once and are
unbelievably welcoming. (Of course, the price of this is that you have
to *be* respectful, not *act* respectful. They can tell the
difference.)

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Joseph Eisenberg]

“You may find that a Mosque may not be happy if a non-Muslim walks in”

I’m not aware of any mosques that prohibit non-Muslims, outside of the holy
cities (Mecca/Medina), though you would need to dress appropriately and act
respectfully.

Jehovas’ Witnesses also welcome new people (aka potential converts).

Mormon temples have places that are off-limits, however - even to ordinary
Mormons.

There are some Hindu temples that prohibit women, and many places of
worship expect men and women to be segregated.

So it’s not an access tag.


On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 7:44 AM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 22:14, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:
>
>>
>> I have never considered the 'religion' tag as an access tag. Typically I
>> can freely enter a PoW, and
>> listen to the ceremony, without being a member of that community or
>> believe in that religion.
>>
>
> Getting off-topic here, but that does not apply to all religions.  And not
> to all denominations
> of Christianity.  You may find that a Mosque may not be happy if a
> non-Muslim walks in, and a
> Kingdom Hall may not be happy if a non-Jehovah's Witness walks in.  Some
> denominations
> of some religions view the entry of those not of their brand of faith
> (infidels) to be sacrilegious
> and/or blasphemous.  In some places the punishments can be quite severe,
> so you should
> avoid blithely walking into a place of worship during a religious ceremony
> unless you are sure
> it is OK to do so.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 7 Jan 2019 at 22:14, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

>
> I have never considered the 'religion' tag as an access tag. Typically I
> can freely enter a PoW, and
> listen to the ceremony, without being a member of that community or
> believe in that religion.
>

Getting off-topic here, but that does not apply to all religions.  And not
to all denominations
of Christianity.  You may find that a Mosque may not be happy if a
non-Muslim walks in, and a
Kingdom Hall may not be happy if a non-Jehovah's Witness walks in.  Some
denominations
of some religions view the entry of those not of their brand of faith
(infidels) to be sacrilegious
and/or blasphemous.  In some places the punishments can be quite severe, so
you should
avoid blithely walking into a place of worship during a religious ceremony
unless you are sure
it is OK to do so.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 07.01.2019 19:08, Volker Schmidt wrote:

if it is a religion related operator, I usually also add religion and 
denomination tags, i.e. in
your Caritas example it would be
religion=christian
denomination=catholic


I would not be sure how to handle this:
Are these "access" tags, in the sense that (in the example) the kindergarten only accepts Roman 
Catholic children, or is it only indicating the religious background of the institution, but they 
accept children with other religious backgrounds as well.


I have never considered the 'religion' tag as an access tag. Typically I can freely enter a PoW, and 
listen to the ceremony, without being a member of that community or believe in that religion.


Similarly, educational institutions in my scope mostly accept children with different background, in 
particular if the receive state funding. E.g. Ireland, the majority of the schools is operated by 
the catholic church, and as a recipient of public funding they have to accept everybody, equally.


Back to Konrad's question, any better ideas to tag the name of the operator's 
umbrella organisation?
I drafted:
> operator:umbrella=* would be more suitable, or more self-explanatory but 
longer
> operator:umbrella_organisation=*


tom

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Volker Schmidt]

if it is a religion related operator, I usually also add religion and
> denomination tags, i.e. in your Caritas example it would be
> religion=christian
> denomination=catholic
>

I would not be sure how to handle this:
Are these "access" tags, in the sense that (in the example) the
kindergarten only accepts Roman Catholic children, or is it only indicating
the religious background of the institution, but they accept children with
other religious backgrounds as well.
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 7. Jan. 2019 um 16:55 Uhr schrieb Konrad Lischka <
klisc...@mailbox.org>:

> operator:type=charitable
> organisation=[organisation name like Caritas]
>
> What do you think?
>




if it is a religion related operator, I usually also add religion and
denomination tags, i.e. in your Caritas example it would be
religion=christian
denomination=catholic

Regarding the "charitable" status, this would be by country, right? The
(tax?) status of the operating organization in the country where the
feature is located? Or where the seat of the organization is?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 07.01.2019 16:53, Konrad Lischka wrote:


My solution would be:
amenity=kindergarten
operator=[Name of theregistered association]
operator:type=charitable


operator:type seems to be established with 180k uses. Plausible to me.


organisation=[organisation name like Caritas]


What you are trying to tag is the umbrella organisation of the operator,
kind of the operator of the operator,
not the "organisation of the kindergarten".

Thus organisation=* seems a bad fit to me.


(2) organisation=
alltough there is some use: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/organisation


usage is very low (161) and unstructured regarding the values. Would not count 
on that.

Thus something like
operator:umbrella=* would be more suitable, or more self-explanatory but longer
operator:umbrella_organisation=*

(Langenscheidt: de: Dachverband = en: umbrella organization )
tom

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[Tagging] Tagging of amenity=kindergarten operated by charitable operators and organisations

[Konrad Lischka]

Hello,

the proper tagging of kindergarten grounds in Germany really makes me think.
The problem: We have a lot of operators that are independent charitable 
entities (for example registered associations see 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_association_(Germany) but belong to 
charitable organisation too like Caritas or Paritätischer.

My solution would be:
amenity=kindergarten
operator=[Name of theregistered association]
operator:type=charitable
organisation=[organisation name like Caritas]

What do you think?

Two points:
(1) operator:type
=charitable is hardly used 
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/operator%3Atype=charitable)
=private_non_profit 
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/operator%3Atype=private_non_profit) 
seems more common 
(https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/operator%3Atype=private_non_profit)
but it is not the same. In Germany the tax authorities give the charitable 
status only to some organisation based on a few defined areas of work in the 
social or educational field. Non-Profis are more commons, but not the same.

(2) organisation=
The use seems to be rather uncodified
The is no https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:organisation
alltough there is some use: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/organisation

Kind regards
Konrad
—
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/klischka



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