Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-24 Thread Pee Wee
Thanks Hubert

I've changed the use_sidepath
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath wiki so
that it is clear that this is about cycleways that are drawn as a separate
highway.

2014-10-23 22:55 GMT+02:00 Hubert sg.fo...@gmx.de:

  I meant the two pages:


 *https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren*
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren
 and


 *https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track*
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track
 which is linked to

 *https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:cycleway*
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:cycleway

 Sorry for the confusion.


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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-23 Thread Pee Wee
Thanks all for your reactions. I also think that the most changes made to
wiki are made in good faith and with good intentions and that is to improve
OSM. This even goes for Ulamm. He also wants to improve OSM  but it is just
the way he does this that gets me irritated.  Most of us (I guess) do this
after some sort of agreement in a part of the community. The impression I
get from Ulamm is that he is so convinced of his own opinion that he sees
this is a justification to changes all wiki's that claim differently.  When
MasiMaster and I were convinced OSM needed a tag like use_sidepath we
followed the proposal proces. Time consuming indeed but I think with a
better result then just changing wiki pages and upsetting people that did
not understand why. It kind of surprises me that Ulamm has something to do
with the soft_lane proposal.

The other thing with the way Ulamm acts is that I now am a lot more
sceptical towards OSM wiki pages. I don't know that many people that do
editing but if I see his name as one of the editors then it makes me
reserved.On top of that it is time consuming. Call me naive but I usually
believe wiki pages (unless of coarse I read something that conflicts with
my common sense ;-) ) Checking credibility of wiki pages is not really my
hobby. I'd rather do some mapping.

@ Hubert. Not sure which pages you refer to. I thought it was this
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcyclewayone but you
do not seem the person that changed it.

Cheers
PeeWee32





2014-10-21 22:36 GMT+02:00 Hubert sg.fo...@gmx.de:

 Pre up: I have worked with him on the soft_lane proposal - results pending.
 I think his intentions are good and that he just takes the be bold part
 of
 the wiki too seriously, or the changes he makes are too large.
 That said, I believe that talking to others is an important part of a
 Community Project like OSM. If there are people that don't see that it will
 upset others.

 Also, FYI, I have updated the german pages on highway=cycleway und
 cycleway=* (track template page) concerning the use of cw=use_sidepath as
 defined prior (7.10 and 8.10). I hope this last a bit.

 Regards Hubert


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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-23 Thread Hubert
I meant the two pages:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren
and
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track
which is linked to 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:cycleway
Sorry for the confusion.


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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-21 Thread Pee Wee
Well... here's my experience with user Ulamm. He sure has taken away part
of the fun it was contributing to this project.

I've noticed he made some changes to the use_sidepath
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath wiki. I
asked him in a private mail for the reason of the changes since they did
not make sense to me nor was I aware of some proposal or a discussion on
the tagging mailinglist. His changes were reverted by Mateusz but Ulamm
changed the wiki almost instantly. Ulamm could not (and still can not) give
me any reference to a discussion or whatever that would justify the changes
he made. In the private mail it was very clear to me that Ulamm wanted to
discuss with me why his change was good for OSM. I instead wanted to make
clear to him that he should get consensus first and after that change the
wiki.
For this reason I decided to continue on the TALK page instead of private
mail.  You can read that in  Talk
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepathpage
from bicycle=yes everywhere

Apart from that fact that there is no consensus on the change he made I
also pointed him to the wiki page on tag for routing/Access restrictions
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions
with which his change conflicts.  He now states that it does not conflict
because those the road types under discussion are excluded from this wiki.
That was new to me so I was surprised. I found out that this wiki was also
changed by Ulamm by adding a paragraph by the name of Special feature:
Roadside cycletracks.  So Ulamm seems to change one wiki and justifies
with another wiki he has just changed.

My impression is that he does not want to reach consensus but just changes
wiki pages to his liking. IMHO this is a very bad development undermining
the wiki pages and the way we should should reach agreement in OSM.

I am wondering what your opinion is on this.

Cheers PeeWee32

PS :
History on use_sidepath wiki
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepathaction=history
History Access page
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictionsaction=history





2014-10-04 20:04 GMT+02:00 715371 osmu715...@gmx.de:

 Hi,

 I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the
 osm-db, but also on the wiki.


 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccessdiff=1076542oldid=1076413

 He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so
 far as I know.

 Now he is claiming this in discussions.

 Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim
 his proposal was right.

 You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and [5].

 Please bann him.

 Cheers,
 Tobias

 [1]

 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcyclewaydiff=1078542oldid=1056509
 [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
 [3]
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track
 [4]

 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_Deutschland
 [5]
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren

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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-21 Thread fly
+10

It is frustrating and I only rarely change the wiki.

I always try to be polite and get into contact but only once. If there
is no real reaction and only more pages are changed or directly changed
after the revert, I would revert them all immediately as it is a problem
if wrong/undiscussed changes are spread.

cu fly

Am 21.10.2014 18:36, schrieb Pee Wee:
 Well... here's my experience with user Ulamm. He sure has taken away
 part of the fun it was contributing to this project.
 
 I've noticed he made some changes to the use_sidepath
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath wiki. I
 asked him in a private mail for the reason of the changes since they did
 not make sense to me nor was I aware of some proposal or a discussion on
 the tagging mailinglist. His changes were reverted by Mateusz but Ulamm
 changed the wiki almost instantly. Ulamm could not (and still can not)
 give me any reference to a discussion or whatever that would justify the
 changes he made. In the private mail it was very clear to me that Ulamm
 wanted to discuss with me why his change was good for OSM. I instead
 wanted to make clear to him that he should get consensus first and after
 that change the wiki.
 For this reason I decided to continue on the TALK page instead of
 private mail.  You can read that in  Talk
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepathpage
 from bicycle=yes everywhere
 
 Apart from that fact that there is no consensus on the change he made I
 also pointed him to the wiki page on tag for routing/Access
 restrictions
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions
 with which his change conflicts.  He now states that it does not
 conflict because those the road types under discussion are excluded from
 this wiki.  That was new to me so I was surprised. I found out that this
 wiki was also changed by Ulamm by adding a paragraph by the name of
 Special feature: Roadside cycletracks.  So Ulamm seems to change one
 wiki and justifies  with another wiki he has just changed.
 
 My impression is that he does not want to reach consensus but just
 changes wiki pages to his liking. IMHO this is a very bad development
 undermining the wiki pages and the way we should should reach agreement
 in OSM.
 
 I am wondering what your opinion is on this.
 
 Cheers PeeWee32
 
 PS :
 History on use_sidepath wiki
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepathaction=history
 History Access page
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictionsaction=history
 
 
 
 
 
 2014-10-04 20:04 GMT+02:00 715371 osmu715...@gmx.de
 mailto:osmu715...@gmx.de:
 
 Hi,
 
 I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the
 osm-db, but also on the wiki.
 
 
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccessdiff=1076542oldid=1076413
 
 He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so
 far as I know.
 
 Now he is claiming this in discussions.
 
 Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim
 his proposal was right.
 
 You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and
 [5].
 
 Please bann him.
 
 Cheers,
 Tobias
 
 [1]
 
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcyclewaydiff=1078542oldid=1056509
 [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
 [3]
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track
 [4]
 
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_Deutschland
 [5]
 
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren



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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
2014-10-21 18:52 GMT+02:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com:

 it is a problem
 if wrong/undiscussed changes are spread.



while I agree, I'd like to point out that this is not an isolated problem
with a single user, it is systematically happening all the time. I believe
that the overwhelming majority (if not all) of the wiki edits are done in
good faith and with the intent to improve the documentation*, but despite
this, many tags slowly move in their meaning (or better, the definition in
the wiki slowly changes, the tagged objects in the db typically don't
adjust automagically). Often these changes are not happening by changing
what is already written but by amending the definition or restricting the
suggested use case (e.g. but if A or C and not D then you should not use
this tag but tag B or this tag can also be used for E). Sometimes
changes are justified with differing tag definitions from translated
pages (e.g. adjust definition to German wiki page).

Cheers,
Martin


* thing is, that different people see/interpret tags differently, and even
if trying to be neutral it is practically impossible to ignore your own
view/interpretation
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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-21 Thread Hubert
Pre up: I have worked with him on the soft_lane proposal - results pending.
I think his intentions are good and that he just takes the be bold part of
the wiki too seriously, or the changes he makes are too large.
That said, I believe that talking to others is an important part of a
Community Project like OSM. If there are people that don't see that it will
upset others.

Also, FYI, I have updated the german pages on highway=cycleway und
cycleway=* (track template page) concerning the use of cw=use_sidepath as
defined prior (7.10 and 8.10). I hope this last a bit.

Regards Hubert


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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-08 Thread Hubert
Thanks for the help and the links. That was my opinion, too.

I asked, because the use is not clear by just reading the definition and not
looking at the examples. 

highway=road + cycleway=track + bicycle=use_sidepath together, without an
additional highway=cycleway OSMWay (for example) seem correct by definition.

I can understand the confusion. Should the use be made more prominent in the
description of the value?

 

Yours

Hubert

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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-08 Thread Pee Wee
If I understand correctly you say it would be better if the wiki stated
that the compulsory cycleway is drawn as a separte way. I think you are
right. I could changed that in the wiki. Unfortunately the user Ulamm has
changed the wiki (for the worse in my opinion) so I'll send him an email
before I make any changes.

Cheers

PeeWee32

2014-10-08 12:34 GMT+02:00 Hubert sg.fo...@gmx.de:

 Thanks for the help and the links. That was my opinion, too.

 I asked, because the use is not clear by just reading the definition and
 not looking at the examples.

 highway=road + cycleway=track + bicycle=use_sidepath together, without an
 additional highway=cycleway OSMWay (for example) seem correct by definition.

 I can understand the confusion. Should the use be made more prominent in
 the description of the value?



 Yours

 Hubert

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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-08 Thread Hubert
Thanks a lot, and yes You understood me correctly.

 

Regards

Hubert

 

From: Pee Wee [mailto:piewi...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Mittwoch, 8. Oktober 2014 12:48
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

 

If I understand correctly you say it would be better if the wiki stated that 
the compulsory cycleway is drawn as a separte way. I think you are right. I 
could changed that in the wiki. Unfortunately the user Ulamm has changed the 
wiki (for the worse in my opinion) so I'll send him an email before I make any 
changes.

Cheers

 

PeeWee32

 

2014-10-08 12:34 GMT+02:00 Hubert sg.fo...@gmx.de:

Thanks for the help and the links. That was my opinion, too.

I asked, because the use is not clear by just reading the definition and not 
looking at the examples. 

highway=road + cycleway=track + bicycle=use_sidepath together, without an 
additional highway=cycleway OSMWay (for example) seem correct by definition.

I can understand the confusion. Should the use be made more prominent in the 
description of the value?

 

Yours

Hubert


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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-08 Thread 715371
Hi,

May be you could link to cycleway:mandatory, too. Which would give a
reference to the analog usage if there is cycleway=* used on the road.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway

But I do not know whether there is a proposition page for
cycleway:mandatory. So maybe this tag should be proposed before.

Cheers
Tobias

Am 08.10.2014 um 12:48 schrieb Pee Wee:
 If I understand correctly you say it would be better if the wiki stated
 that the compulsory cycleway is drawn as a separte way. I think you are
 right. I could changed that in the wiki. Unfortunately the user Ulamm has
 changed the wiki (for the worse in my opinion) so I'll send him an email
 before I make any changes.
 
 Cheers
 
 PeeWee32
 
 2014-10-08 12:34 GMT+02:00 Hubert sg.fo...@gmx.de:
 
 Thanks for the help and the links. That was my opinion, too.

 I asked, because the use is not clear by just reading the definition and
 not looking at the examples.

 highway=road + cycleway=track + bicycle=use_sidepath together, without an
 additional highway=cycleway OSMWay (for example) seem correct by definition.

 I can understand the confusion. Should the use be made more prominent in
 the description of the value?



 Yours

 Hubert

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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-08 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
It is perfectly fine to revert somebody. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle

2014-10-08 12:48 GMT+02:00 Pee Wee piewi...@gmail.com:

 If I understand correctly you say it would be better if the wiki stated
 that the compulsory cycleway is drawn as a separte way. I think you are
 right. I could changed that in the wiki. Unfortunately the user Ulamm has
 changed the wiki (for the worse in my opinion) so I'll send him an email
 before I make any changes.

 Cheers

 PeeWee32

 2014-10-08 12:34 GMT+02:00 Hubert sg.fo...@gmx.de:

 Thanks for the help and the links. That was my opinion, too.

 I asked, because the use is not clear by just reading the definition and
 not looking at the examples.

 highway=road + cycleway=track + bicycle=use_sidepath together, without an
 additional highway=cycleway OSMWay (for example) seem correct by definition.

 I can understand the confusion. Should the use be made more prominent in
 the description of the value?



 Yours

 Hubert

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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-08 Thread Pee Wee
I''ll wait till the edit war is over before I make any changes.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepathaction=history

Apparently it is very difficult to discuss prior to making changes.

Cheers
PeeWee32

2014-10-08 14:18 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com:

 It is perfectly fine to revert somebody. See
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle

 2014-10-08 12:48 GMT+02:00 Pee Wee piewi...@gmail.com:

 If I understand correctly you say it would be better if the wiki stated
 that the compulsory cycleway is drawn as a separte way. I think you are
 right. I could changed that in the wiki. Unfortunately the user Ulamm has
 changed the wiki (for the worse in my opinion) so I'll send him an email
 before I make any changes.

 Cheers

 PeeWee32

 2014-10-08 12:34 GMT+02:00 Hubert sg.fo...@gmx.de:

 Thanks for the help and the links. That was my opinion, too.

 I asked, because the use is not clear by just reading the definition and
 not looking at the examples.

 highway=road + cycleway=track + bicycle=use_sidepath together, without
 an additional highway=cycleway OSMWay (for example) seem correct by
 definition.

 I can understand the confusion. Should the use be made more prominent in
 the description of the value?



 Yours

 Hubert

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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-07 Thread Hubert
Hey,

could someone remind me on how bicycle=use_sidepath is supposed to be used. 
E.g. Always on highway=road if a compulsory cycle way is present or only when 
this cycle way is tagged as a separate OSM-way.

Best Regard
Hubert

 -Original Message-
 From: 715371 [mailto:osmu715...@gmx.de]
 Sent: Samstag, 4. Oktober 2014 20:05
 To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page
 
 Hi,
 
 I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the
 osm-db, but also on the wiki.
 
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccessdiff=1076
 542oldid=1076413
 
 He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so
 far as I know.
 
 Now he is claiming this in discussions.
 
 Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim
 his proposal was right.
 
 You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and
 [5].
 
 Please bann him.
 
 Cheers,
 Tobias
 
 [1]
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcyclew
 aydiff=1078542oldid=1056509
 [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
 [3]
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Tr
 ack
 [4]
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_
 Deutschland
 [5]
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_karti
 eren
 
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Re: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-07 Thread Marc Gemis
more details and requirements for the correct use of the can be found on
this wiki page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Duse_sidepath

regards

m

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Hubert sg.fo...@gmx.de wrote:

 Hey,

 could someone remind me on how bicycle=use_sidepath is supposed to be
 used. E.g. Always on highway=road if a compulsory cycle way is present or
 only when this cycle way is tagged as a separate OSM-way.

 Best Regard
 Hubert

  -Original Message-
  From: 715371 [mailto:osmu715...@gmx.de]
  Sent: Samstag, 4. Oktober 2014 20:05
  To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
  Subject: [Tagging] Vandalis on access page
 
  Hi,
 
  I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the
  osm-db, but also on the wiki.
 
  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccessdiff=1076
  542oldid=1076413
 
  He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so
  far as I know.
 
  Now he is claiming this in discussions.
 
  Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim
  his proposal was right.
 
  You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and
  [5].
 
  Please bann him.
 
  Cheers,
  Tobias
 
  [1]
  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcyclew
  aydiff=1078542oldid=1056509
  [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
  [3]
  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Tr
  ack
  [4]
  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_
  Deutschland
  [5]
  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_karti
  eren
 
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[Tagging] Vandalis on access page

2014-10-04 Thread 715371
Hi,

I want to mention that user ulamm is not just doing vandalism on the
osm-db, but also on the wiki.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aaccessdiff=1076542oldid=1076413

He is changing the information for Germany, where this is not true so
far as I know.

Now he is claiming this in discussions.

Related to sidewalk-tagging he is doing the same: modify and than claim
his proposal was right.

You can also find suspicious modifications on [1], [2], [3], [4] and [5].

Please bann him.

Cheers,
Tobias

[1]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag%3Ahighway%3Dcyclewaydiff=1078542oldid=1056509
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Tag:highway%3Dcycleway
[3]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:De:Description:Cycleway:Track
[4]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attributierung_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_in_Deutschland
[5]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle/Radverkehrsanlagen_kartieren

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