Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-05-01 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
Pretty good Joseph, but I'd suggest going a bit further by changing this bit: On Wed, 1 May 2019 at 18:18, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > "Verifiability is an important concept to OpenStreetMap to "a vital (or even the vital?) concept ..." to stress how important it is. Thanks Graeme

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-05-01 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 1. May 2019, at 10:17, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > - A tag/value combination and geometry is verifiable if and only if > independent users observing the same feature would make the same > observation every time. every time means under the same circumstances, there are

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-05-01 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
Based on everyone's comments, I've tried editing the page again. Now there are two main sections: a short section that defines "What is Verifiability?, then all of the Examples. The main change is that I added 2 bullet points to the "What is?" section, pulled from the 2 older examples about

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-05-01 Thread Philip Barnes
On Tuesday, 30 April 2019, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > On Wed, 1 May 2019 at 00:46, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote: > > > > > > On 30. Apr 2019, at 15:03, Colin Smale wrote: > > > > > > Beware also the quest for the universal solution. Postal addressing, > > administrative segmentation and

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-30 Thread Warin
One problem is the 'audience' is so varied. We have the beginner.. who wants basic stuff fast. No time to read details, get on and map! The 'expert' with an edge case or problem and wants minute detail. How to deal with them in the one document? Have sections.. At the front there needs to

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-30 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Wed, 1 May 2019 at 14:54, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote: > On 29/04/19 15:21, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > I would guess that they could be: > > Austinville - place=hamlet > > Springbrook - place=village > > +1 - both as nodes? > > Springbrook would be centred on the pub or store ... or

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-30 Thread Warin
On 29/04/19 15:21, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: I would guess that they could be: Austinville - place=hamlet Springbrook - place=village +1 - both as nodes? Springbrook would be centred on the pub or store ... or halfway between the two. Austinville ... centred on the community hall. On

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-30 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Wed, 1 May 2019 at 00:46, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > On 30. Apr 2019, at 15:03, Colin Smale wrote: > > > > Beware also the quest for the universal solution. Postal addressing, > administrative segmentation and people's affinities are separate > dimensions. Any attempt to force them

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-30 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 30. Apr 2019, at 15:03, Colin Smale wrote: > > Beware also the quest for the universal solution. Postal addressing, > administrative segmentation and people's affinities are separate dimensions. > Any attempt to force them into a single model is doomed to failure, so

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-30 Thread Philip Barnes
On Tuesday, 30 April 2019, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > sent from a phone > > > On 30. Apr 2019, at 15:03, Colin Smale wrote: > > > > Be careful with these generalisations. This might be true for North > > America, but it is not true in the UK, for example, where cemeteries/burial > >

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-30 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 30. Apr 2019, at 15:03, Colin Smale wrote: > > Be careful with these generalisations. This might be true for North America, > but it is not true in the UK, for example, where cemeteries/burial grounds > are historically attached to the village church, at the heart of

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-30 Thread Colin Smale
On 2019-04-30 12:14, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > yes, having houses "outside" of the settlement is probably common everywhere, > and they might feel part of the community (next hamlet / village / town), but > it doesn't mean the house is part of the hamlet. > For cemeteries it is common to be

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-30 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
Am Mo., 29. Apr. 2019 um 07:30 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg < joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>: > Re: a hamlet with houses several (=3) km away from the center of > hamlet. I was thinking of a place like Horse Creek, California. This > cemetery is at the northwest end of the valley >

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
Re: a hamlet with houses several (=3) km away from the center of hamlet. I was thinking of a place like Horse Creek, California. This cemetery is at the northwest end of the valley ((https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/358805720/)), 4 km away from the center of the hamlet

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
I would guess that they could be: Austinville - place=hamlet Springbrook - place=village On 4/29/19, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 at 06:23, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote: > >> I cannot imagine houses that are several kilometers away being part of a >> hamlet, in a settlement

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 at 06:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > I cannot imagine houses that are several kilometers away being part of a > hamlet, in a settlement sense. Can you give an example please, maybe this > can occur in very low density areas? > I mentioned these the other week in

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Greg Troxel
Paul Allen writes: > On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 at 21:23, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote: > >> I cannot imagine houses that are several kilometers away being part >> of a hamlet, in a settlement sense. Can you give an example please, >> maybe this can occur in very low density areas? > > Remote farms

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 at 23:09, Wolfgang Zenker wrote: The most difficult thing here is probably finding a good name for that > relation type and for the "inside" and "near by but outside" roles. > multifuzzygon I'm not being entirely serious... -- Paul

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Wolfgang Zenker
* Tobias Knerr [190428 14:31]: > On 28.04.19 13:51, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: >> "A place=hamlet often lacks verifiable borders. Hamlets in farming areas >> often have scattered houses and farms extending outward for several >> kilometers. In this case the approximate center of the place may be >>

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Kevin Kenny
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 5:16 PM Daniel Koć wrote: > I think there is a quite universal problem with mixing verifiability > with level of accuracy. You might not be able to show accurate borders, > but you can clearly verify that this is an area and not the node, for > example. This is why I'm

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Daniel Koć
W dniu 28.04.2019 o 11:43, Joseph Eisenberg pisze: > "Linear ways and areas can be non-verifiable if the geometry cannot be > demonstrated to be true or false by another mapper. It sounds like for some reason nodes are more verifiable. I believe this does not work that way. I see an assumption

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 at 22:02, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > postal address and administrative belonging are one (or two ;-) ) things, > being part of a settlement another. Every place will be inside an > administrative entity, but in doesn’t necessarily mean it is also part of > the settlement.

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 28. Apr 2019, at 22:36, Paul Allen wrote: > > In the UK, historic (and perhaps no longer existent) parish boundaries play a > part in determining > which hamlet/village/town an isolated farm is regarded as being part of. At > least as far as its > postal address

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 28. Apr 2019, at 14:46, Christoph Hormann wrote: > > the aim of this would need to be to allow limiting > the recorded information to exactly what can verifiably be said about a > feature, not to add more non-verifiable data to disguise the > non-verifiable nature of

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Paul Allen
On Sun, 28 Apr 2019 at 21:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > I cannot imagine houses that are several kilometers away being part of a > hamlet, in a settlement sense. Can you give an example please, maybe this > can occur in very low density areas? > Remote farms have to be somewhere. At least

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer
sent from a phone > On 28. Apr 2019, at 13:51, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > "A place=hamlet often lacks verifiable borders. Hamlets in farming areas > often have scattered houses and farms extending outward for several > kilometers. In this case the approximate center of the place may be >

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Kevin Kenny
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 3:24 PM Colin Smale wrote: > How about taking the maritime baseline (according to UNCLOS) as the location > of the rivermouth? Then it becomes both credible and verifiable, as the > baselines are deposited at the UN for the purposes of determining the limits > of

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Colin Smale
On 2019-04-28 20:25, Kevin Kenny wrote: > Precisely the same quest for topologic perfection is responsible for the rule > that fixes the mouth of a river at its tidal limit - which gives rise to the > absurd result that the mouth of the Hudson River is at >

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Kevin Kenny
On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 7:39 AM Tobias Knerr wrote: > Yes, it's often not possible to agree on a precise border for these > features. But nevertheless, there are typically areas that are > definitely part of them, and other areas there are definitely not part > of them. > > The above is

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Christoph Hormann
On Sunday 28 April 2019, Christoph Hormann wrote: > [...] > > Seriously? > > Because one polygon is not a verifiable representation of a certain > feature you want to replace it with - drumroll - two polygons? I am sorry if that came across more dismissive than necessary - i was just quite taken

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Christoph Hormann
On Sunday 28 April 2019, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > > Is this first line a clear definition, or can it be improved? > > "Linear ways and areas can be non-verifiable if the geometry cannot > be demonstrated to be true or false by another mapper." While that is a correct statement it also applies to

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
On 4/28/19, Christoph Hormann wrote: > I don't really like the extension Joseph wrote on the Verifiability page > but not because i disagree with the general idea but because for my > taste it is too much *definition by example* which is a poor way of > communicating the concept in general.

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Christoph Hormann
On Sunday 28 April 2019, Tobias Knerr wrote: > > Yes, it's often not possible to agree on a precise border for these > features. But nevertheless, there are typically areas that are > definitely part of them, and other areas there are definitely not > part of them. I'd like to emphasize once more

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
I could remove some of my examples and some of the other that have been added since 2015, but I wonder if the page will still be understood by most people without examples? Perhaps we could move all the examples to a later section, so that the first part is relatively short and to the point? On

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
28 Apr 2019, 14:31 by o...@tobias-knerr.de: > So the world's houses and farms can be (somewhat simplistically) divided > into 3 sets: > A: Verifiably part of the hamlet. > B: Verifiably not part of the hamlet. > C: May or may not be part of the hamlet. > > In my opinion, verifiability is not a

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Tobias Knerr
On 28.04.19 13:51, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > "A place=hamlet often lacks verifiable borders. Hamlets in farming areas > often have scattered houses and farms extending outward for several > kilometers. In this case the approximate center of the place may be > well-know, but the outer limits are

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Andy Townsend
On 28/04/2019 10:43, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: Please suggest any improvements to the wording or corrections: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability#Geometry Thanks for trying to improve the documentation, but unfortunately, trying to add more detail (including specifics about

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
28 Apr 2019, 13:38 by o...@tobias-knerr.de: > It also > doesn't make logical sense to me: If it were indeed impossible to > verifiably establish even an approximate boundary of the feature, how > can we verifiably establish the feature's center? > I think that examples given in this edit are

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Tobias Knerr
On 28.04.19 11:43, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: > Please suggest any improvements to the wording or corrections: > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability#Geometry I'm afraid I can't support the addition of this new rule. Yes, it's often not possible to agree on a precise border for these

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Mateusz Konieczny
+1 28 Apr 2019, 12:25 by bkil.hu...@gmail.com: >  > > > On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 11:44 AM Joseph Eisenberg <> > joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com > > wrote: > >> I've added a new section to the Verifiability wiki page about mapping >> features with ways or areas

Re: [Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread bkil
 On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 11:44 AM Joseph Eisenberg < joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote: > I've added a new section to the Verifiability wiki page about mapping > features with ways or areas when these geometries are not verifiable. > > This has been discussed here several times in the past few

[Tagging] Verifiability wiki page: "Geometry" section added

2019-04-28 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
I've added a new section to the Verifiability wiki page about mapping features with ways or areas when these geometries are not verifiable. This has been discussed here several times in the past few months, in regards to tags like natural=bay, natural=strait, place=*, and proposals like