Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-26 Thread Matthew Woehlke

On 26/08/2020 07.12, pangoSE wrote:

I rest my case. Thanks for the examples. Could you help update the wikipage 
about POIs to reflect this?


By "the wikipage", do you mean 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Points_of_interest? It isn't 
immediately obvious where this information would be added there. (It 
seems it would at least need a new section, something like "how to add 
addresses to POIs"?)


Or were you thinking of some other page?

--
Matthew

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-26 Thread pangoSE
Hi

Matthew Woehlke  skrev: (25 augusti 2020 15:25:19 
CEST)
>On 24/08/2020 16.25, pangoSE wrote:
>> Martin Koppenhoefer skrev: (24 augusti 2020 02:16:27 CEST)
>>> Also useful when the POI is approximately placed (e.g. in a
>>> neighbouring building, happens quite often, at least as long as most
>>> POIs are not yet mapped)
>> 
>> Really? Can you link to an example?  I have never come across a POI
>> that needed a special address. I would rather map to he entry in the
>> that case and put the address there.
>
>Just about any strip mall. For example, 42.8625, -73.7831. I can give
>at 
>least three other examples within 1000 *feet*; in a few miles, probably
>
>a dozen or more.
>
>Mapping stores in such cases practically requires mapping the *insides*
>
>of the buildings. It's much more typical to drop a POI in about the 
>right place (either the middle of the store, or the entrance to the 
>store). Yet, these *do* have distinct addresses.
>
>The same can easily happen with multi-unit dwellings.
>
>Also, mailboxes have addresses, but are unlikely to be mapped as ways 
>due to their size.
>
>> The POI IMO cannot logically have an address itself, its a human 
>> symbol for designating something of interest within a feature like a 
>> building, park or whatever.
>
>...or its a somewhat abstracted representation of a building because no
>
>one has yet made the effort to map the building more precisely. BTW, 
>it's not that unusual for detached houses to be mapped as POIs, 
>especially when addresses are imported from GIS data that gives them 
>only as points. Yes, in an ideal world everything of this nature would 
>be mapped as a way, but that isn't always practical.
>
>> When the Swedish geosurvey sometime soon release all public adresses
>> for free we will have to merge them all with the buildings where
>> possible.
>...And what will you do if there is no building, and it isn't obvious 
>how to add one (e.g. strip malls)? Not import that address at all?
>
>> thinking about it postal addresses follows land plots and legal
>boundaries and not POIs.
>
>Actually, AFAIK this is only partly true. Yes, the address "123 Cherry 
>Lane" follows a plot, but I'm not aware of anything preventing me from 
>erecting three structures on that plot and designating them "unit 1", 
>"unit 3.14" and "unit gamma". This would be unusual on a residential 
>plot, but not at all (well, sans my intentionally bizarre numbering)
>for 
>a commercial building.

I rest my case. Thanks for the examples. Could you help update the wikipage 
about POIs to reflect this?

Cheers 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-25 Thread Matthew Woehlke

On 24/08/2020 16.25, pangoSE wrote:

Martin Koppenhoefer skrev: (24 augusti 2020 02:16:27 CEST)

Also useful when the POI is approximately placed (e.g. in a
neighbouring building, happens quite often, at least as long as most
POIs are not yet mapped)


Really? Can you link to an example?  I have never come across a POI
that needed a special address. I would rather map to he entry in the
that case and put the address there.


Just about any strip mall. For example, 42.8625, -73.7831. I can give at 
least three other examples within 1000 *feet*; in a few miles, probably 
a dozen or more.


Mapping stores in such cases practically requires mapping the *insides* 
of the buildings. It's much more typical to drop a POI in about the 
right place (either the middle of the store, or the entrance to the 
store). Yet, these *do* have distinct addresses.


The same can easily happen with multi-unit dwellings.

Also, mailboxes have addresses, but are unlikely to be mapped as ways 
due to their size.


The POI IMO cannot logically have an address itself, its a human 
symbol for designating something of interest within a feature like a 
building, park or whatever.


...or its a somewhat abstracted representation of a building because no 
one has yet made the effort to map the building more precisely. BTW, 
it's not that unusual for detached houses to be mapped as POIs, 
especially when addresses are imported from GIS data that gives them 
only as points. Yes, in an ideal world everything of this nature would 
be mapped as a way, but that isn't always practical.



When the Swedish geosurvey sometime soon release all public adresses
for free we will have to merge them all with the buildings where
possible.
...And what will you do if there is no building, and it isn't obvious 
how to add one (e.g. strip malls)? Not import that address at all?



thinking about it postal addresses follows land plots and legal boundaries and 
not POIs.


Actually, AFAIK this is only partly true. Yes, the address "123 Cherry 
Lane" follows a plot, but I'm not aware of anything preventing me from 
erecting three structures on that plot and designating them "unit 1", 
"unit 3.14" and "unit gamma". This would be unusual on a residential 
plot, but not at all (well, sans my intentionally bizarre numbering) for 
a commercial building.


--
Matthew

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-25 Thread pangoSE


Martin Koppenhoefer  skrev: (25 augusti 2020 09:18:08 
CEST)
>
>
>sent from a phone
>
>> On 25. Aug 2020, at 02:07, pangoSE  wrote:
>> 
>> What I mean is that its a bad idea to keep the exact same data in
>multiple places and thinking about it postal addresses follows land
>plots and legal boundaries and not POIs.
>
>
>it is often not the exact same data. Housenumbers could be distinct 13
>and 14 while the POI address would be 13-14 (or 13;14 if you prefer).

Oh, in that case it SGTM. 
Could you update the wiki if it is not clearly stated somewhere already?

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-25 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 25. Aug 2020, at 02:07, pangoSE  wrote:
> 
> What I mean is that its a bad idea to keep the exact same data in multiple 
> places and thinking about it postal addresses follows land plots and legal 
> boundaries and not POIs.


it is often not the exact same data. Housenumbers could be distinct 13 and 14 
while the POI address would be 13-14 (or 13;14 if you prefer).

Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-24 Thread pangoSE
Hi

Andrew Harvey  skrev: (25 augusti 2020 00:39:55 CEST)
>On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 06:27, pangoSE  wrote:
>
>> The POI IMO cannot logically have an adress itself, its a human
>symbol for
>> designating something of interest within a feature like a building,
>park or
>> whatever. Adresses are specialized designations used by the state and
>> postal service. You cannot apply for an address for a newsstand, a
>> phonebooth or a park (In Sweden)
>>
>
>By that logic (at least in Australia) the building cannot have an
>address,
>after all here land parcels hold the address not the building, but we
>still
>commonly tag the building or POI with an address since they "hold" the
>address.

Yeah, its probably the same here because you can have a land plot without a 
house but with a postbox and address anyway.  It is a compromise to put it on 
the buildings where they exist because land plots is out of scope.

What I mean is that its a bad idea to keep the exact same data in multiple 
places and thinking about it postal addresses follows land plots and legal 
boundaries and not POIs.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-24 Thread Andrew Harvey
On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 06:27, pangoSE  wrote:

> The POI IMO cannot logically have an adress itself, its a human symbol for
> designating something of interest within a feature like a building, park or
> whatever. Adresses are specialized designations used by the state and
> postal service. You cannot apply for an address for a newsstand, a
> phonebooth or a park (In Sweden)
>

By that logic (at least in Australia) the building cannot have an address,
after all here land parcels hold the address not the building, but we still
commonly tag the building or POI with an address since they "hold" the
address.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-24 Thread pangoSE
Hi Martin

Martin Koppenhoefer  skrev: (24 augusti 2020 02:16:27 
CEST)
>
>
>sent from a phone
>
>> On 23. Aug 2020, at 23:20, pangoSE  wrote:
>> 
>> This collides with one feature one element does it not?
>
>
>it does not. An address is not (necessarily) a feature, it can also be
>a property 

Hmm. I don't buy that argument. If that is a valid argument you could have 
copies of data in many places in OSM say all tags on a way could be added to 
each node as well for "stability". The problem is that it is a unnecessary 
burden IMO to maintain of.

>
>
>> Can you give an example of what you mean by stable?
>
>
>if you move the POI or the building geometry, the (surveyed) POI
>address is still explicitly tagged.

Why would anyone do that?

>
>Also useful when the POI is approximately placed (e.g. in a
>neighbouring building, happens quite often, at least as long as most
>POIs are not yet mapped)

Really? Can you link to an example?  I have never come across a POI that needed 
a special address. I would rather map to he entry in the that case and put the 
address there. 

The POI IMO cannot logically have an adress itself, its a human symbol for 
designating something of interest within a feature like a building, park or 
whatever. Adresses are specialized designations used by the state and postal 
service. You cannot apply for an address for a newsstand, a phonebooth or a 
park (In Sweden)

In Sweden the postal system works only with physical places designated by 
Lantmäteriet as a legal piece of ground. You cannot assign an adress yourself 
to a random area in the forest for example no matter if it has a world famous 
POI or not.

The Swedish community has decided that we add addresses to buildings and 
entries instead of having points (like in Denmark). When the Swedish geosurvey 
sometime soon release all public adresses for free we will have to merge them 
all with the buildings where possible. I hope they will give all their adress 
nodes unique, permanent IDs to help us synchronize in the future.

Cheers 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-23 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 23. Aug 2020, at 23:20, pangoSE  wrote:
> 
> This collides with one feature one element does it not?


it does not. An address is not (necessarily) a feature, it can also be a 
property 


> Can you give an example of what you mean by stable?


if you move the POI or the building geometry, the (surveyed) POI address is 
still explicitly tagged.

Also useful when the POI is approximately placed (e.g. in a neighbouring 
building, happens quite often, at least as long as most POIs are not yet mapped)

Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-23 Thread pangoSE


Martin Koppenhoefer  skrev: (23 augusti 2020 19:15:04 
CEST)
>
>
>sent from a phone
>
>> On 23. Aug 2020, at 18:53, Thibault Molleman
> wrote:
>> 
>> Should that entrance node also have the 
>> addr:housenumber=15
>> tag or is it assumed based on it being placed on the building's way?
>
>
>The addr:housenumber ideally should be added to the object to which it
>applies (polygon like building, entrance, gate, etc.). It will
>typically not be necessary to repeat it if the topology already makes
>the feature part of an object with the same addressing information, but
>some mappers (myself included) prefer repeating the address on POIs
>because it makes the data more stable.

This collides with one feature one element does it not? Can you give an example 
of what you mean by stable?

Cheers

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-23 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 23. Aug 2020, at 18:53, Thibault Molleman  
> wrote:
> 
> Should that entrance node also have the 
> addr:housenumber=15
> tag or is it assumed based on it being placed on the building's way?


The addr:housenumber ideally should be added to the object to which it applies 
(polygon like building, entrance, gate, etc.). It will typically not be 
necessary to repeat it if the topology already makes the feature part of an 
object with the same addressing information, but some mappers (myself included) 
prefer repeating the address on POIs because it makes the data more stable.

Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-23 Thread Jo
Hi,

You probably meant 5, not 15. I think it's OK to repeat the address on that
entrance node.

Jo

On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 6:53 PM Thibault Molleman <
thibaultmolle...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Update on my example I gave. We changed it to
> addr:housename=Residentie Den Oude Post
> addr:housenumber=14
> addr:street=Kasteelstraat
> addr:unit=1A;2A;3A
>
>
> A more complex example:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/699214532
>
> So this is Kasteelstraat 5
> The bank that's located on the bottom floor is on Kasteelstraat 5 (so the
> POI node has that address)
> At the side of the building there is an entrance for the flats/units.
> I mapped that as an entrance https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7025498816
> Should that entrance node also have the
> addr:housenumber=15
> tag or is it assumed based on it being placed on the building's way?
>
> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 12:16, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> > On 23. Aug 2020, at 10:17, Jo  wrote:
>> >
>> > The house number is not 12 and it is not 14, it actually is 12-14,
>> because 2 buildings were torn down and a single building was built instead
>> of it. This also happens when people or companies acquire 2 adjacent
>> buildings, they often also start using both house numbers as their address.
>>
>>
>> In Italy this happens all the time, because every door and shop window
>> (potential entrance) gets a housenumber, so it is very common that shops
>> have addresses with several numbers. Sometimes they use just a single
>> number of those that they “have” as address (not even necessarily the one
>> of the door, but the one they are registered under) in other cases (very
>> common) they use multiple numbers.
>>
>> I usually map both, individual numbers on entrances and windows and
>> coalesced ones for addresses on POIs (as they use them themselves).
>>
>> Cheers Martin
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-23 Thread Thibault Molleman
Update on my example I gave. We changed it to
addr:housename=Residentie Den Oude Post
addr:housenumber=14
addr:street=Kasteelstraat
addr:unit=1A;2A;3A


A more complex example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/699214532

So this is Kasteelstraat 5
The bank that's located on the bottom floor is on Kasteelstraat 5 (so the
POI node has that address)
At the side of the building there is an entrance for the flats/units.
I mapped that as an entrance https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7025498816
Should that entrance node also have the
addr:housenumber=15
tag or is it assumed based on it being placed on the building's way?

On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 12:16, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 23. Aug 2020, at 10:17, Jo  wrote:
> >
> > The house number is not 12 and it is not 14, it actually is 12-14,
> because 2 buildings were torn down and a single building was built instead
> of it. This also happens when people or companies acquire 2 adjacent
> buildings, they often also start using both house numbers as their address.
>
>
> In Italy this happens all the time, because every door and shop window
> (potential entrance) gets a housenumber, so it is very common that shops
> have addresses with several numbers. Sometimes they use just a single
> number of those that they “have” as address (not even necessarily the one
> of the door, but the one they are registered under) in other cases (very
> common) they use multiple numbers.
>
> I usually map both, individual numbers on entrances and windows and
> coalesced ones for addresses on POIs (as they use them themselves).
>
> Cheers Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-23 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer

sent from a phone

> On 23. Aug 2020, at 10:17, Jo  wrote:
> 
> The house number is not 12 and it is not 14, it actually is 12-14, because 2 
> buildings were torn down and a single building was built instead of it. This 
> also happens when people or companies acquire 2 adjacent buildings, they 
> often also start using both house numbers as their address.


In Italy this happens all the time, because every door and shop window 
(potential entrance) gets a housenumber, so it is very common that shops have 
addresses with several numbers. Sometimes they use just a single number of 
those that they “have” as address (not even necessarily the one of the door, 
but the one they are registered under) in other cases (very common) they use 
multiple numbers.

I usually map both, individual numbers on entrances and windows and coalesced 
ones for addresses on POIs (as they use them themselves).

Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-23 Thread Simon Poole

Am 19.08.2020 um 10:46 schrieb Sarah Hoffmann:
> ...
> We'd also need a new tag to indicate the interpolation steps odd/even/all. 
> It's not really
> a good idea to reuse addr:interpolation because on a building outline it 
> becomes ambigious:
> you'd have to check for the presence of other tags to figure out if the way 
> denotes an
> interpolation line or an address range on a building.
> ...

As I suggested this, as a clarification: I wasn't  suggesting to add
this to the building outline, because as you say this wouldn't actually
work, but simply adding a short way within the building outline with the
interpolation information. I agree this is a hack, but it has the
advantage that if there is agreement and support for an on the building
tagging down the road, this can be moved to such a tagging without
having to resurvey.

Simon




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-23 Thread Jo
Hi, I changed it. I also added a url which has some additional background
information for the whole street.

I don't think we should drop hyphens in house numbers. The house number is
not 12 and it is not 14, it actually is 12-14, because 2 buildings were
torn down and a single building was built instead of it. This also happens
when people or companies acquire 2 adjacent buildings, they often also
start using both house numbers as their address.

I have no idea why they called the units 1A;2A;3A though. Now the address
for a single unit is Kasteelstraat 12-14/1A, I guess. Could have been just
12-14/1. It's unlikely a 1B, 2C or 3D will appear...

Jo

On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 7:49 AM Thibault Molleman <
thibaultmolle...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think the old building at that location used to be split in 2 (thus the
> 2 housenumbers).
> So Kasteelstraat 12 does not exist anymore.
>
> I only just now realized I mapped this wrong (was one of my first things I
> mapped a couple years ago).
>
> By your photo, it looks like you could even put a building name in as well
>> "*Den Oude Post*"!
>
> yeah, also something I didn't realize back then
>
> Cheers,
>
> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 00:43, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 05:55, Thibault Molleman <
>> thibaultmolle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is a simple example: https://photos.app.goo.gl/wEQiB4X6BA3doK7T7
>>> one building, one unit/flat on each floor.
>>> mailbox at the front for all 3 units.
>>>
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675768351
>>>
>>> currently mapped as:
>>> addr:housenumber=1A;2A;3A
>>> addr:street=Kasteelstraat
>>>
>>
>> But looking at the street, & the way it's numbered, it shows as 2, 4, 6,
>> 8, 10, this place, 16, 18, 20, 22 ...
>>
>> Assuming all those numbers actually appear?, personally, I would have
>> mapped it as
>> addr:unit / flats (whatever the default is in Belgium?)=1A;2A;3A
>> addr:housenumber=12-14
>> addr:street=Kasteelstraat
>>
>> By your photo, it looks like you could even put a building name in as
>> well "*Den Oude Post*"!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-22 Thread Thibault Molleman
I think the old building at that location used to be split in 2 (thus the 2
housenumbers).
So Kasteelstraat 12 does not exist anymore.

I only just now realized I mapped this wrong (was one of my first things I
mapped a couple years ago).

By your photo, it looks like you could even put a building name in as
well "*Den
> Oude Post*"!

yeah, also something I didn't realize back then

Cheers,

On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 00:43, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
>
> On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 05:55, Thibault Molleman <
> thibaultmolle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is a simple example: https://photos.app.goo.gl/wEQiB4X6BA3doK7T7
>> one building, one unit/flat on each floor.
>> mailbox at the front for all 3 units.
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675768351
>>
>> currently mapped as:
>> addr:housenumber=1A;2A;3A
>> addr:street=Kasteelstraat
>>
>
> But looking at the street, & the way it's numbered, it shows as 2, 4, 6,
> 8, 10, this place, 16, 18, 20, 22 ...
>
> Assuming all those numbers actually appear?, personally, I would have
> mapped it as
> addr:unit / flats (whatever the default is in Belgium?)=1A;2A;3A
> addr:housenumber=12-14
> addr:street=Kasteelstraat
>
> By your photo, it looks like you could even put a building name in as well
> "*Den Oude Post*"!
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-22 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Sun, 23 Aug 2020 at 05:55, Thibault Molleman 
wrote:

> This is a simple example: https://photos.app.goo.gl/wEQiB4X6BA3doK7T7
> one building, one unit/flat on each floor.
> mailbox at the front for all 3 units.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675768351
>
> currently mapped as:
> addr:housenumber=1A;2A;3A
> addr:street=Kasteelstraat
>

But looking at the street, & the way it's numbered, it shows as 2, 4, 6, 8,
10, this place, 16, 18, 20, 22 ...

Assuming all those numbers actually appear?, personally, I would have
mapped it as
addr:unit / flats (whatever the default is in Belgium?)=1A;2A;3A
addr:housenumber=12-14
addr:street=Kasteelstraat

By your photo, it looks like you could even put a building name in as
well "*Den
Oude Post*"!

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-22 Thread Thibault Molleman
This is a simple example: https://photos.app.goo.gl/wEQiB4X6BA3doK7T7
one building, one unit/flat on each floor.
mailbox at the front for all 3 units.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/675768351

currently mapped as:
addr:housenumber=1A;2A;3A
addr:street=Kasteelstraat

On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 at 19:13, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 22. Aug 2020, at 09:25, Thibault Molleman 
> wrote:
> >
> > So what's the consensus on an apartment building (way) that has
> mailboxes for each person who has an apartment there.
> > I've just been tagging those as:
> > addr:housenumber = A1;A2;A3;A4;A5;A6;A7;A8;A9;A10;A11
>
>
> are these housenumbers or unit/flat numbers?
> What does a specific address look like (addr:street? addr:housename?
> addr:place?)
>
> Cheers Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-22 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 22. Aug 2020, at 09:25, Thibault Molleman  
> wrote:
> 
> So what's the consensus on an apartment building (way) that has mailboxes for 
> each person who has an apartment there.
> I've just been tagging those as:
> addr:housenumber = A1;A2;A3;A4;A5;A6;A7;A8;A9;A10;A11


are these housenumbers or unit/flat numbers? 
What does a specific address look like (addr:street? addr:housename? 
addr:place?)

Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-22 Thread Thibault Molleman
A lot of those types of apartment buildings in my area (and i assume other
places in Belgium as well) don't have a "building housenumber", only the
individual flat housenumbers.

Making a node for every single flat just looks bad on the map. And I agree
that it just makes more sense to put it on the one node/way.



On Sat, Aug 22, 2020, 11:53 Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> Aug 22, 2020, 11:43 by andrew.harv...@gmail.com:
>
> On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 at 17:25, Thibault Molleman <
> thibaultmolle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So what's the consensus on an apartment building (way) that has mailboxes
> for each person who has an apartment there.
> I've just been tagging those as:
> addr:housenumber = A1;A2;A3;A4;A5;A6;A7;A8;A9;A10;A11
>
>
> Could you use https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:flats? Leaving
> unit/apartment/flat numbers out of the addr:housenumber.
>
> It depends - are there actually separate house numbers assigned to each
> apartment?
> (yes, it happens -  similarly to some places that assigned house numbers
> to every single
> house, shed and separate address for every single door of a garage)
>
> Or is there a house number (assigned to building or building complex) and
> separate
> unit/apartment/flat number? In such case addr:housenumber =
> A1;A2;A3;A4;A5;A6;A7;A8;A9;A10;A11
> would be misuse of the tag.
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-22 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging



Aug 22, 2020, 11:43 by andrew.harv...@gmail.com:

> On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 at 17:25, Thibault Molleman <> 
> thibaultmolle...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>> So what's the consensus on an apartment building (way) that has mailboxes 
>> for each person who has an apartment there.
>> I've just been tagging those as:
>> addr:housenumber = A1;A2;A3;A4;A5;A6;A7;A8;A9;A10;A11
>>
>
> Could you use > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:flats> ? Leaving 
> unit/apartment/flat numbers out of the addr:housenumber.
>
It depends - are there actually separate house numbers assigned to each 
apartment?
(yes, it happens -  similarly to some places that assigned house numbers to 
every single
house, shed and separate address for every single door of a garage)

Or is there a house number (assigned to building or building complex) and 
separate 
unit/apartment/flat number? In such case addr:housenumber = 
A1;A2;A3;A4;A5;A6;A7;A8;A9;A10;A11
would be misuse of the tag.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-22 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging
I would say that such tagging is 100% fine and I would
consider it superior to addr:housenumber = A1-A11.

It would be probably nicer to map individual apartments in such case with
their own addr:housenumber (what may require asking people living there),
but in many cases it is probably not viable. And may be outright impossible
in some places.

Aug 22, 2020, 09:23 by thibaultmolle...@gmail.com:

> So what's the consensus on an apartment building (way) that has mailboxes for 
> each person who has an apartment there.
> I've just been tagging those as:
> addr:housenumber = A1;A2;A3;A4;A5;A6;A7;A8;A9;A10;A11
>
> (Semicolon, because that's what the wiki recommends for multiple values iirc)
>
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 21:36 Topographe Fou <> letopographe...@gmail.com> > 
> wrote:
>
>> then why not using addr:interpolation=no to state that the hyphen in 
>> addr:housenumber does not define a range ? I think everyone would be happy 
>> and it will not break current tagging schema. QA tools would raise a warning 
>> if there is an hyphen and no addr:interpolation tag. Default rule might be 
>> that an hyphen denotes (or not... Or both... I don't care) a range.
>>
>> LeTopographeFou
>> De:>>  >> tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> Envoyé:>>  20 août 2020 6:35 PM
>> À:>>  >> andrew.harv...@gmail.com
>> Répondre à:>>  >> tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> Cc:>>  >> matkoni...@tutanota.com>> ; >> tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> Objet:>>  Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Aug 20, 2020, 15:50 by >> andrew.harv...@gmail.com>> :
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> And it may be useful to have tag to mark "yes this is actually a single 
>>>> housenumber despite
>>>> that includes hyphen or something else that suggests range"  
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would assume that to be the default, when there are multiple addresses 
>>> best to mark them all out individually or use a linear way with the address 
>>> at the start and end nodes and addr:interpolation on the line (as a first 
>>> pass before mapping them out individually) 
>>>
>> But given that addr:housenumber=1-3  may represent either case it would be 
>> nice to be able to state this.
>> ___
>>  Tagging mailing list
>>  >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>  >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-22 Thread Andrew Harvey
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 at 17:25, Thibault Molleman 
wrote:

> So what's the consensus on an apartment building (way) that has mailboxes
> for each person who has an apartment there.
> I've just been tagging those as:
> addr:housenumber = A1;A2;A3;A4;A5;A6;A7;A8;A9;A10;A11
>

Could you use https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:flats? Leaving
unit/apartment/flat numbers out of the addr:housenumber.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-22 Thread Thibault Molleman
So what's the consensus on an apartment building (way) that has mailboxes
for each person who has an apartment there.
I've just been tagging those as:
addr:housenumber = A1;A2;A3;A4;A5;A6;A7;A8;A9;A10;A11

(Semicolon, because that's what the wiki recommends for multiple values
iirc)

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020, 21:36 Topographe Fou 
wrote:

> then why not using addr:interpolation=no to state that the hyphen in
> addr:housenumber does not define a range ? I think everyone would be happy
> and it will not break current tagging schema. QA tools would raise a
> warning if there is an hyphen and no addr:interpolation tag. Default rule
> might be that an hyphen denotes (or not... Or both... I don't care) a range.
>
> LeTopographeFou
> *De:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Envoyé:* 20 août 2020 6:35 PM
> *À:* andrew.harv...@gmail.com
> *Répondre à:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Cc:* matkoni...@tutanota.com; tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Objet:* Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address
> ranges
>
>
>
>
> Aug 20, 2020, 15:50 by andrew.harv...@gmail.com:
>
>
> And it may be useful to have tag to mark "yes this is actually a single
> housenumber despite
> that includes hyphen or something else that suggests range"
>
>
> I would assume that to be the default, when there are multiple addresses
> best to mark them all out individually or use a linear way with the address
> at the start and end nodes and addr:interpolation on the line (as a first
> pass before mapping them out individually)
>
> But given that addr:housenumber=1-3  may represent either case it would be
> nice to be able to state this.
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-20 Thread Topographe Fou
  then why not using addr:interpolation=no to state that the hyphen in addr:housenumber does not define a range ? I think everyone would be happy and it will not break current tagging schema. QA tools would raise a warning if there is an hyphen and no addr:interpolation tag. Default rule might be that an hyphen denotes (or not... Or both... I don't care) a range. LeTopographeFou   De: tagging@openstreetmap.orgEnvoyé: 20 août 2020 6:35 PMÀ: andrew.harv...@gmail.comRépondre à: tagging@openstreetmap.orgCc: matkoni...@tutanota.com; tagging@openstreetmap.orgObjet: Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges  Aug 20, 2020, 15:50 by andrew.harv...@gmail.com:And it may be useful to have tag to mark "yes this is actually a single housenumber despitethat includes hyphen or something else that suggests range"  I would assume that to be the default, when there are multiple addresses best to mark them all out individually or use a linear way with the address at the start and end nodes and addr:interpolation on the line (as a first pass before mapping them out individually) But given that addr:housenumber=1-3  may represent either case it would be nice to be able to state this.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-20 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging



Aug 20, 2020, 15:50 by andrew.harv...@gmail.com:

>>>
>>>
>> And it may be useful to have tag to mark "yes this is actually a single 
>> housenumber despite
>> that includes hyphen or something else that suggests range"  
>>
>
> I would assume that to be the default, when there are multiple addresses best 
> to mark them all out individually or use a linear way with the address at the 
> start and end nodes and addr:interpolation on the line (as a first pass 
> before mapping them out individually) 
>
But given that addr:housenumber=1-3  may represent either case it would be nice 
to be able to state this.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-20 Thread Andrew Harvey
>
>
> And it may be useful to have tag to mark "yes this is actually a single
> housenumber despite
> that includes hyphen or something else that suggests range"
>

I would assume that to be the default, when there are multiple addresses
best to mark them all out individually or use a linear way with the address
at the start and end nodes and addr:interpolation on the line (as a first
pass before mapping them out individually)
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 20. Aug 2020, at 15:29, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> And it may be useful to have tag to mark "yes this is actually a single 
> housenumber despite
> that includes hyphen or something else that suggests range" 


referring to addresses or to housenumbers, or both?

Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-20 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging



Aug 19, 2020, 10:46 by lon...@denofr.de:

> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:29:50PM +0200, Colin Smale wrote:
>
>> I think you misunderstand hyphenated addresses in Queens. The second
>> part of the hyphenation is not a flat/apartment number. As an example,
>> the Dunkin Donuts at the corner of 31st St and 36th Ave has an address
>> of 31-02 36th Ave, with no apartment number. The US Postal Service
>> considers this to be equivalent to 3102 36th Ave, and will deliver mail
>> to the same place regardless of whether you include the hyphen, though
>> the address written on the entrance is hyphenated. Most building numbers
>> in Queens have a hyphen before the last two digits. 
>>
>> Thanks for the explanation.. It is indeed a while ago since I was there.
>> Any idea how this is structured in IT systems? Is "house number"
>> alphanumeric? Are the two parts stored separately? Or is it simply a
>> question of formatting, inserting a "-" before the final two digits? 
>>
>> Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a
>> slash?
>>
>
> No matter what character you suggest, there will be some place in the world
> where that is a valid addition to a house number.
>
> Lets be honest, the main reason why we keep discussing how to get a range into
> the addr:housenumber tag is good old tagging for the renderer:
> addr:housenumber gets rendered on the map, a different tag doesn't. I've
> even had people arguing that they must use housenumber ranges because single
> housenumbers do not fit the map[1]. This is a slippery slope to go down.
> It makes the tag less and less useful for uses beyond rendering.
>
> [1] https://github.com/osm-search/Nominatim/issues/565#issuecomment-315131285
>
> I'm strongly in favour of coming up with a new tag for ranges on 
> building/nodes.
> I'd be happy to quickly add such a tag to be searchable and I'm sure it would 
> also be
> fairly simple to convince the carto people to add support for an additional 
> tagging
> schema here.
>
> Martin's suggestion of addr:housenumber:start/addr:housenumber:end wasn't 
> half way bad.
> Something like addr:housenumber_range=- with an explicit definition 
> of the
> hyphen as separator would work as well but add the restriction that you can't 
> have
> hyphened housenumbers in interpolation ranges (probably rare enough to be 
> okay).
>
And it may be useful to have tag to mark "yes this is actually a single 
housenumber despite
that includes hyphen or something else that suggests range"  

> We'd also need a new tag to indicate the interpolation steps odd/even/all. 
> It's not really
> a good idea to reuse addr:interpolation because on a building outline it 
> becomes ambigious:
> you'd have to check for the presence of other tags to figure out if the way 
> denotes an
> interpolation line or an address range on a building.
>
> Sarah
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-19 Thread Sarah Hoffmann
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:29:50PM +0200, Colin Smale wrote:
> I think you misunderstand hyphenated addresses in Queens. The second
> part of the hyphenation is not a flat/apartment number. As an example,
> the Dunkin Donuts at the corner of 31st St and 36th Ave has an address
> of 31-02 36th Ave, with no apartment number. The US Postal Service
> considers this to be equivalent to 3102 36th Ave, and will deliver mail
> to the same place regardless of whether you include the hyphen, though
> the address written on the entrance is hyphenated. Most building numbers
> in Queens have a hyphen before the last two digits. 
> 
> Thanks for the explanation.. It is indeed a while ago since I was there.
> Any idea how this is structured in IT systems? Is "house number"
> alphanumeric? Are the two parts stored separately? Or is it simply a
> question of formatting, inserting a "-" before the final two digits? 
> 
> Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a
> slash? 

No matter what character you suggest, there will be some place in the world
where that is a valid addition to a house number.

Lets be honest, the main reason why we keep discussing how to get a range into
the addr:housenumber tag is good old tagging for the renderer:
addr:housenumber gets rendered on the map, a different tag doesn't. I've
even had people arguing that they must use housenumber ranges because single
housenumbers do not fit the map[1]. This is a slippery slope to go down.
It makes the tag less and less useful for uses beyond rendering.

[1] https://github.com/osm-search/Nominatim/issues/565#issuecomment-315131285

I'm strongly in favour of coming up with a new tag for ranges on building/nodes.
I'd be happy to quickly add such a tag to be searchable and I'm sure it would 
also be
fairly simple to convince the carto people to add support for an additional 
tagging
schema here.

Martin's suggestion of addr:housenumber:start/addr:housenumber:end wasn't half 
way bad.
Something like addr:housenumber_range=- with an explicit definition 
of the
hyphen as separator would work as well but add the restriction that you can't 
have
hyphened housenumbers in interpolation ranges (probably rare enough to be okay).

We'd also need a new tag to indicate the interpolation steps odd/even/all. It's 
not really
a good idea to reuse addr:interpolation because on a building outline it 
becomes ambigious:
you'd have to check for the presence of other tags to figure out if the way 
denotes an
interpolation line or an address range on a building.

Sarah

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-19 Thread Peter Elderson
Two dots are used in some circles to indicate inclusive range. eg 21..27.

Best, Peter Elderson


Op wo 19 aug. 2020 om 00:25 schreef Tod Fitch :

>
> On Aug 18, 2020, at 2:29 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
>
>
> Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a
> slash?
>
>
>
> In the United States it is not too uncommon for infill housing in urban
> areas to have fractional street numbers. So you can see addresses like “123
> 1/2 North Main Street” for a building located between 123 and 125 (odd
> numbers are usually on one side of the street so 124 is not available in
> this example). I already am annoyed by QA checkers that flag that as an
> error. Defining a slash to mean something other that the, to me, obvious
> use as a fraction would make things worse.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tod
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging



18 Aug 2020, 23:29 by colin.sm...@xs4all.nl:

>
> On 2020-08-18 22:39, Clay Smalley wrote:
>
>
>> If you
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 12:51 PM Colin Smale <>> colin.sm...@xs4all.nl>> > 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 2020-08-18 20:55, Clay Smalley wrote:
>>>
>>>
 On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale < 
 colin.sm...@xs4all.nl > wrote:

> There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this 
> building (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where 
> can I find number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially 
> ambiguous we won't be able to cover both. 
> In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street 
> address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe 
> I know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor 
> number - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes 
> other characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - 
> in these cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
>
 Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US 
 addresses.

>>> If you mean the US example, some friends were living in Long Island City, 
>>> Queens, NY, and their apartment address was something like 1100-157 50th 
>>> Ave. The other examples are possibly typically European. Here in the 
>>> Netherlands there are all kinds of notations in use for sub-units. The 
>>> national addressing standard has a field for an alphanumeric "house number 
>>> suffix" for this that people in IT know about, but the average Johan might 
>>> not know what a "huisnummertoevoeging" is. Normally the full number, 
>>> including the suffix, is written together with some kind of separator.
>>>
>>  
>> I think you misunderstand hyphenated addresses in Queens. The second part of 
>> the hyphenation is not a flat/apartment number. As an example, the Dunkin 
>> Donuts at the corner of 31st St and 36th Ave has an address of 31-02 36th 
>> Ave, with no apartment number. The US Postal Service considers this to be 
>> equivalent to 3102 36th Ave, and will deliver mail to the same place 
>> regardless of whether you include the hyphen, though the address written on 
>> the entrance is hyphenated. Most building numbers in Queens have a hyphen 
>> before the last two digits.
>>  
>>
> Thanks for the explanation.. It is indeed a while ago since I was there. Any 
> idea how this is structured in IT systems? Is "house number" alphanumeric? 
> Are the two parts stored separately? Or is it simply a question of 
> formatting, inserting a "-" before the final two digits?
>  
> Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a 
> slash?
>
Slash is used in Poland to separate
housenumber from unit number.

For example 22/5 Streetname
would be house 22 at Streetname,
flat number 5.

Using it for range would be 
unbelievably confusing 
And at least some addresses are
in form addr:housenumber=1-3
denoting single housenumber,
not a range.

I added recently such example to
a Wiki page about addresses.

>  
>
>>> There are also areas where the whole neighbourhood has a single street 
>>> name, and everybody has a very long house number; the initial digits of the 
>>> house number indicate the specific road within the neighbourhood. Sometimes 
>>> these house numbers are written as 123-45 to aid navigation.
>>>
>>  
>> Examples?
>>  
>>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/51.80636/5.80412
>  
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/51.83527/5.78425
>  
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.29739/4.68692
>  
>

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Jonathon Rossi
On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 9:28 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 at 05:51, Colin Smale  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty
>>> well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the
>>> "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
>>> So let us sort this mess out by defining:
>>> 1) that a hyphen indicates a range
>>>
>> Are there any other scenarios for hyphenated addresses?
>>
> As Andrew mentioned earlier, out here it is very common to have an address
> like 1-5 which means that one property is built across 3 blocks, so it's
> official address is "1 to 5", with no interpolation. Even numbers are on
> the other side of the road, so nobody is going to be looking here for 2 & 4.
>

Agreed. It is really common in Australian rural areas that the address
number range is actually allocated to a single lot, not one per lot.
Australia Post several decades ago allocated street numbers to every lot in
the country that previously only had a lot number, lot numbers are now only
acceptable until the street number is allocated by council. When this
allocation occurred the street numbers were allocated for every 10 metres
(left odd, right even, with other rules to determine the starting point),
so if your lot started 1500m from the start of the street on the right side
and had 500m of street frontage they'd have allocated your street number as
150-198. Australia Post expects that the street number range be used rather
than just the first number no matter where your driveway is. It sounds like
this is all defined in Rural Addressing in AS4819:2011, but the QLD
Government link below has a short explanation similar to what I've said.

https://www.qld.gov.au/environment/land/title/addressing/how-determined
https://auspost.com.au/content/dam/auspost_corp/media/documents/australia-post-addressing-standards-1999.pdf

-- 
Jono
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Tod Fitch

> On Aug 18, 2020, at 2:29 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
> 
> Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a 
> slash?
> 

In the United States it is not too uncommon for infill housing in urban areas 
to have fractional street numbers. So you can see addresses like “123 1/2 North 
Main Street” for a building located between 123 and 125 (odd numbers are 
usually on one side of the street so 124 is not available in this example). I 
already am annoyed by QA checkers that flag that as an error. Defining a slash 
to mean something other that the, to me, obvious use as a fraction would make 
things worse.

Cheers,

Tod




signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Andrew Harvey
On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 at 04:26, Colin Smale  wrote:

> There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building
> (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find
> number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we
> won't be able to cover both.
>
> In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street
> address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I
> know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number
> - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other
> characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these
> cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
>

> On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty
> well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the
> "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
>
> So let us sort this mess out by defining:
> 1) that a hyphen indicates a range
> 2) sub-addresses like a floor or apartment number must not use the hyphen
> notation, but must be given in addr:unit
>

Agreed, in those cases when it's not a range but actually an apartment
number or unit number addr:unit is best.


> 3) an address using the range syntax should indicate the interpolation
> scheme by means of addr:interpolation=*
>

The problem with this is addr:interpolation is currently defined as "Every
nth house between the end nodes is represented by the interpolation way.",
when mapping an address which uses a range, there is no start and end
nodes, it's just a single address, you're not saying this range
interpolates multiple addresses here, you're saying there is a single
address and it's a range. In this case we don't need to record the
addr:interpolation since the interpolated addresses don't actually exist
(where exists means signposted).
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 at 05:51, Colin Smale  wrote:

>
>
> On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty
>> well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the
>> "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
>> So let us sort this mess out by defining:
>> 1) that a hyphen indicates a range
>>
> Are there any other scenarios for hyphenated addresses?
>
As Andrew mentioned earlier, out here it is very common to have an address
like 1-5 which means that one property is built across 3 blocks, so it's
official address is "1 to 5", with no interpolation. Even numbers are on
the other side of the road, so nobody is going to be looking here for 2 & 4.

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Colin Smale
On 2020-08-18 22:39, Clay Smalley wrote:

> If you 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 12:51 PM Colin Smale  wrote: 
> 
> On 2020-08-18 20:55, Clay Smalley wrote: 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale  wrote: 
> There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building 
> (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find 
> number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we 
> won't be able to cover both. 
> In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street 
> address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I 
> know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number - 
> e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other 
> characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these 
> cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric. 
> Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US 
> addresses.

If you mean the US example, some friends were living in Long Island
City, Queens, NY, and their apartment address was something like
1100-157 50th Ave. The other examples are possibly typically European.
Here in the Netherlands there are all kinds of notations in use for
sub-units. The national addressing standard has a field for an
alphanumeric "house number suffix" for this that people in IT know
about, but the average Johan might not know what a
"huisnummertoevoeging" is. Normally the full number, including the
suffix, is written together with some kind of separator. 

I think you misunderstand hyphenated addresses in Queens. The second
part of the hyphenation is not a flat/apartment number. As an example,
the Dunkin Donuts at the corner of 31st St and 36th Ave has an address
of 31-02 36th Ave, with no apartment number. The US Postal Service
considers this to be equivalent to 3102 36th Ave, and will deliver mail
to the same place regardless of whether you include the hyphen, though
the address written on the entrance is hyphenated. Most building numbers
in Queens have a hyphen before the last two digits. 

Thanks for the explanation.. It is indeed a while ago since I was there.
Any idea how this is structured in IT systems? Is "house number"
alphanumeric? Are the two parts stored separately? Or is it simply a
question of formatting, inserting a "-" before the final two digits? 

Maybe we should use a different character to indicate a range, such as a
slash? 

>> There are also areas where the whole neighbourhood has a single street name, 
>> and everybody has a very long house number; the initial digits of the house 
>> number indicate the specific road within the neighbourhood. Sometimes these 
>> house numbers are written as 123-45 to aid navigation.
> 
> Examples?

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/51.80636/5.80412 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/51.83527/5.78425 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/52.29739/4.68692___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Clay Smalley
If you

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 12:51 PM Colin Smale  wrote:

> On 2020-08-18 20:55, Clay Smalley wrote:
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale 
> wrote:
>
>> There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this
>> building (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can
>> I find number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially
>> ambiguous we won't be able to cover both.
>> In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street
>> address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I
>> know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number
>> - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other
>> characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these
>> cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
>>
>
> Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US
> addresses.
>
>
> If you mean the US example, some friends were living in Long Island City,
> Queens, NY, and their apartment address was something like 1100-157 50th
> Ave. The other examples are possibly typically European. Here in the
> Netherlands there are all kinds of notations in use for sub-units. The
> national addressing standard has a field for an alphanumeric "house number
> suffix" for this that people in IT know about, but the average Johan might
> not know what a "huisnummertoevoeging" is. Normally the full number,
> including the suffix, is written together with some kind of separator.
>

I think you misunderstand hyphenated addresses in Queens. The second part
of the hyphenation is not a flat/apartment number. As an example, the
Dunkin Donuts at the corner of 31st St and 36th Ave has an address of 31-02
36th Ave, with no apartment number. The US Postal Service considers this to
be equivalent to 3102 36th Ave, and will deliver mail to the same place
regardless of whether you include the hyphen, though the address written on
the entrance is hyphenated. Most building numbers in Queens have a hyphen
before the last two digits.

There are also areas where the whole neighbourhood has a single street
> name, and everybody has a very long house number; the initial digits of the
> house number indicate the specific road within the neighbourhood. Sometimes
> these house numbers are written as 123-45 to aid navigation.
>

Examples?

-Clay
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Colin Smale
On 2020-08-18 20:55, Clay Smalley wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale  wrote: 
> 
>> There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building 
>> (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find 
>> number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we 
>> won't be able to cover both. 
>> In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street 
>> address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I 
>> know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number 
>> - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other 
>> characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these 
>> cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
> 
> Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US 
> addresses.

If you mean the US example, some friends were living in Long Island
City, Queens, NY, and their apartment address was something like
1100-157 50th Ave. The other examples are possibly typically European.
Here in the Netherlands there are all kinds of notations in use for
sub-units. The national addressing standard has a field for an
alphanumeric "house number suffix" for this that people in IT know
about, but the average Johan might not know what a
"huisnummertoevoeging" is. Normally the full number, including the
suffix, is written together with some kind of separator. 

There are also areas where the whole neighbourhood has a single street
name, and everybody has a very long house number; the initial digits of
the house number indicate the specific road within the neighbourhood.
Sometimes these house numbers are written as 123-45 to aid navigation. 

>> On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty 
>> well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the 
>> "interpolation" value (even, odd, all). 
>> So let us sort this mess out by defining: 
>> 1) that a hyphen indicates a range 
>> 2) sub-addresses like a floor or apartment number must not use the hyphen 
>> notation, but must be given in addr:unit 
>> 3) an address using the range syntax should indicate the interpolation 
>> scheme by means of addr:interpolation=*
> 
> This leaves the situation in Queens, NY unsolved, where hyphenated addresses 
> do not indicate ranges.

As I mentioned above I know that hyphenated addresses can be used for
subdivisions (apartments etc). Are there any other scenarios for
hyphenated addresses?___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Clay Smalley
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:26 AM Colin Smale  wrote:

> There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this building
> (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where can I find
> number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially ambiguous we
> won't be able to cover both.
>
> In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the street
> address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In Europe I
> know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or floor number
> - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3. Sometimes other
> characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or I/II/III - in these
> cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric.
>

Can you point out some examples? I've never seen that syntax used in US
addresses.

On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty
> well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the
> "interpolation" value (even, odd, all).
>
> So let us sort this mess out by defining:
> 1) that a hyphen indicates a range
> 2) sub-addresses like a floor or apartment number must not use the hyphen
> notation, but must be given in addr:unit
> 3) an address using the range syntax should indicate the interpolation
> scheme by means of addr:interpolation=*
>

This leaves the situation in Queens, NY unsolved, where hyphenated
addresses do not indicate ranges.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Colin Smale
On 2020-08-18 16:10, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 18. Aug 2020, at 05:34, Paul White  wrote:
>> 
>> I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using 
>> a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street).

> It's their address, and I might also map the individual numbers and their 
> positions additionally, so it might eventually become more clear to someone 
> looking at the situation.
> Sometimes when the business uses 37/39 I will admittedly convert this to 
> 37;39 for clarity.

There are two use cases here: one is "what is the address of this
building (or whatever)" and the other is the reverse situation: "where
can I find number XXX". As long as we have tagging that is potentially
ambiguous we won't be able to cover both. 

In the US I know of cases where an apartment number can follow the
street address, i.e. 10-321 meaning Street Address 10, apartment 321. In
Europe I know of the suffix being used to indicate apartment number, or
floor number - e.g. 379-3 meaning Street Address 379, Floor/Flat 3.
Sometimes other characters are used for the floor/flat such as A/B/C or
I/II/III - in these cases it is unambiguous because it is non-numeric. 

On the other hand using the "1-5" notation to indicate a range is pretty
well understood in the UK at least. What it is missing is the
"interpolation" value (even, odd, all). 

So let us sort this mess out by defining: 
1) that a hyphen indicates a range 
2) sub-addresses like a floor or apartment number must not use the
hyphen notation, but must be given in addr:unit 
3) an address using the range syntax should indicate the interpolation
scheme by means of addr:interpolation=*___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 18. Aug 2020, at 05:34, Paul White  wrote:
> 
> I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using a 
> hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street).


I am not sure for buildings, but for addresses I use this all the time, because 
these are common addresses around here. There are some issues with this, for 
example if the address is 35-39 you cannot tell for sure whether this means 
35;37;39 or 35;36;37;38;39
On the other hand I don’t care ;-)
It’s their address, and I might also map the individual numbers and their 
positions additionally, so it might eventually become more clear to someone 
looking at the situation.
Sometimes when the business uses 37/39 I will admittedly convert this to 37;39 
for clarity.

Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Jarek Piórkowski
On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 at 23:32, Paul White  wrote:
> I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using a 
> hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street).

Let's keep in mind there are also buildings in London and possibly
elsewhere which have a _single_ entrance and nevertheless a
"hyphenated " address, e.g. 4-5 Bonhill Street
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/157901333 and buildings nearby.

> This is a bad idea because some areas in the United States and possibly 
> elsewhere use hyphenated street numbers for individual dwellings.[1]

Which are properly entered as addr:unit anyhow

--Jarek

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Andrew Harvey
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 19:15, Simon Poole  wrote:

> The correct ways to model a range of house numbers is to use an address
> interpolation or explicitly list the numbers (using comma or semi-colons as
> delimitiers), anything else is woefully underspecified, not to mention
> other issues, for example hyphens being used to delimit building and
> apartment/unit numbers as in AUS for example.
>
If they are actually individual addresses and you're just taking a shortcut
when mapping by using addr:interpolation
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr#Tags_for_interpolation_ways then
that's okay.

But when you have a single parcel of land which has a single address which
uses a range, then I don't think addr:interpolation is best, that would
imply there are n addresses along the way here, but actually there is just
a single range address eg 1-3, it's different to an interpolation.

Apartment/unit numbers should be entered with addr:unit, seperate from the
street address number.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Simon Poole
The correct ways to model a range of house numbers is to use an address
interpolation or explicitly list the numbers (using comma or semi-colons
as delimitiers), anything else is woefully underspecified, not to
mention other issues, for example hyphens being used to delimit building
and apartment/unit numbers as in AUS for example.

Simon

Am 18.08.2020 um 11:02 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging:
>
>
>
> Aug 18, 2020, 07:09 by andrew.harv...@gmail.com:
>
> > Data consumers see these hyphenated house numbers as one
> address, as well.
>
> Is that a problem? An address range can be considered a single
> address.
>
> > Create an address node for each housenumber and place each node
> somewhere on the building outline (or inside the building)
>
> I don't think that's a good idea, we should try to accurately map
> what's on the ground, when the street address is signposted as a
> range like "1-3" we should capture that as a single address "1-3"
> and not multiple addresses unless it's signed that way on the ground.
>
> It depends on what is actually on the ground, we are mapping addresses
> with addr:housenumber.
>
> Single object using 1-3 range? OK, 1-3 is correct and other versions
> would be incorrect.
>
> Single 1-3 signpost with three entrances? Then mapping each as a
> separate node with
> addr:housenumber=1, addr:housenumber=2, addr:housenumber=3 is preferable.
>
> Single entrance? Depends on a case, if there is later a clear split
> then three nodes are better
> than one range.
>
> Signposts are not sole address source, asking people - especially
> people living there -
> is also perfectly acceptable on the ground survey method.
>
>
> > If house numbers are associated with individual entrances, tag
> those numbers to entrance=* nodes.
>
> Doesn't work when the whole site and single main entrance have the
> address range.
>
> And in such case range may be OK or even preferable.
>
> > Separate the numbers by commas (e.g., 11,13,15) or semicolon
> (e.g., 11;13;15).
>
> why commas?
>
> Again I feel that's skewing what's actually represented on the
> ground, which is a single address which is a range and not
> multiple addresses.
>
> We are using addr:* to map addresses, not signposts. And in this
> specific case you are
> anyway unable to specify range.
>
> > Specify the range (e.g. 10-95). Note that there is a risk of
> ambiguity between two meanings:
> > When such a range is officially used for the entire house, this
> is the preferred method. In this case 10-95 is simply a label like
> any other. In this and other cases, house numbers officially
> contain a dash and are not meant to be treated as special.
> > When such a range is meant to be interpreted as a list of
> addresses, use addr:interpolation=* (described below) to emphasise
> this. Some mappers will add a short "virtual" way which allows
> them to put addresses 10 and 95 on separate nodes as normal. Some
> mappers will specify the range 10-95 on a single object, where the
> addition of the addr:interpolation=* tag disambiguates it from the
> "simply a label" meaning, specifying that it is indeed to be
> treated as a range. Both approaches are used in practice and there
> is little consensus.
> > Note that in some cases building or building complex has single
> address such as 3-5 that only looks like a housenumber range. As
> usual, do not convert such data blindly, without a verification.
> I think this is the best option, since it depends exactly what's
> happening on the ground.
>
> I think the only reasonable alternative is to have something like
> addr:housenumber:start=1 + addr:housenumber:end=3. Which is
> clearer that this is a range and allows data consumers to
> understand it better.
>
> On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 13:34, Paul White  > wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a
> building using a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55
> Main Street). This is a bad idea because some areas in the
> United States and possibly elsewhere use hyphenated street
> numbers for individual dwellings.[1] Data consumers see these
> hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well. Other
> methods documented here
> 
> 
>  work
> better, in my opinion.
>
> I hope to get some input on this issue and the best path forward.
>
> Best, Paul
>
> [1]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queens#Streets
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Lawn%2C_New_Jersey#Grid-based_address_system
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address#United_States
>
>
> ___

Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-18 Thread Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging



Aug 18, 2020, 07:09 by andrew.harv...@gmail.com:

> > Data consumers see these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well.
>
> Is that a problem? An address range can be considered a single address.
>
> > Create an address node for each housenumber and place each node somewhere 
> > on the building outline (or inside the building)
>
> I don't think that's a good idea, we should try to accurately map what's on 
> the ground, when the street address is signposted as a range like "1-3" we 
> should capture that as a single address "1-3" and not multiple addresses 
> unless it's signed that way on the ground.
>
It depends on what is actually on the ground, we are mapping addresses with 
addr:housenumber.

Single object using 1-3 range? OK, 1-3 is correct and other versions would be 
incorrect.

Single 1-3 signpost with three entrances? Then mapping each as a separate node 
with
addr:housenumber=1, addr:housenumber=2, addr:housenumber=3 is preferable.

Single entrance? Depends on a case, if there is later a clear split then three 
nodes are better
than one range.

Signposts are not sole address source, asking people - especially people living 
there -
is also perfectly acceptable on the ground survey method.

>
> > If house numbers are associated with individual entrances, tag those 
> > numbers to entrance=* nodes.
>
> Doesn't work when the whole site and single main entrance have the address 
> range.
>
And in such case range may be OK or even preferable.

> > Separate the numbers by commas (e.g., 11,13,15) or semicolon (e.g., 
> > 11;13;15).
>
why commas?

> Again I feel that's skewing what's actually represented on the ground, which 
> is a single address which is a range and not multiple addresses.
>
We are using addr:* to map addresses, not signposts. And in this specific case 
you are 
anyway unable to specify range.

> > Specify the range (e.g. 10-95). Note that there is a risk of ambiguity 
> > between two meanings:
> > When such a range is officially used for the entire house, this is the 
> > preferred method. In this case 10-95 is simply a label like any other. In 
> > this and other cases, house numbers officially contain a dash and are not 
> > meant to be treated as special.
> > When such a range is meant to be interpreted as a list of addresses, use 
> > addr:interpolation=* (described below) to emphasise this. Some mappers will 
> > add a short "virtual" way which allows them to put addresses 10 and 95 on 
> > separate nodes as normal. Some mappers will specify the range 10-95 on a 
> > single object, where the addition of the addr:interpolation=* tag 
> > disambiguates it from the "simply a label" meaning, specifying that it is 
> > indeed to be treated as a range. Both approaches are used in practice and 
> > there is little consensus.
> > Note that in some cases building or building complex has single address 
> > such as 3-5 that only looks like a housenumber range. As usual, do not 
> > convert such data blindly, without a verification.
> I think this is the best option, since it depends exactly what's happening on 
> the ground.
>
> I think the only reasonable alternative is to have something like 
> addr:housenumber:start=1 + addr:housenumber:end=3. Which is clearer that this 
> is a range and allows data consumers to understand it better.
>
> On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 13:34, Paul White <> pjwhite1...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using 
>> a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street). This is a bad 
>> idea because some areas in the United States and possibly elsewhere use 
>> hyphenated street numbers for individual dwellings.[1] Data consumers see 
>> these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well. Other methods 
>> documented >> here 
>> >>
>>   work better, in my opinion.
>>
>> I hope to get some input on this issue and the best path forward.
>>
>> Best, Paul
>>
>> [1]
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queens#Streets
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Lawn%2C_New_Jersey#Grid-based_address_system
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address#United_States
>>
>>
>> ___
>>  Tagging mailing list
>>  >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>  >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


Re: [Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-17 Thread Andrew Harvey
> Data consumers see these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well.

Is that a problem? An address range can be considered a single address.

> Create an address node for each housenumber and place each node somewhere
on the building outline (or inside the building)

I don't think that's a good idea, we should try to accurately map what's on
the ground, when the street address is signposted as a range like "1-3" we
should capture that as a single address "1-3" and not multiple addresses
unless it's signed that way on the ground.

> If house numbers are associated with individual entrances, tag those
numbers to entrance=* nodes.

Doesn't work when the whole site and single main entrance have the address
range.

> Separate the numbers by commas (e.g., 11,13,15) or semicolon (e.g.,
11;13;15).

Again I feel that's skewing what's actually represented on the ground,
which is a single address which is a range and not multiple addresses.

> Specify the range (e.g. 10-95). Note that there is a risk of ambiguity
between two meanings:
> When such a range is officially used for the entire house, this is the
preferred method. In this case 10-95 is simply a label like any other. In
this and other cases, house numbers officially contain a dash and are not
meant to be treated as special.
> When such a range is meant to be interpreted as a list of addresses, use
addr:interpolation=* (described below) to emphasise this. Some mappers will
add a short "virtual" way which allows them to put addresses 10 and 95 on
separate nodes as normal. Some mappers will specify the range 10-95 on a
single object, where the addition of the addr:interpolation=* tag
disambiguates it from the "simply a label" meaning, specifying that it is
indeed to be treated as a range. Both approaches are used in practice and
there is little consensus.
> Note that in some cases building or building complex has single address
such as 3-5 that only looks like a housenumber range. As usual, do not
convert such data blindly, without a verification.

I think this is the best option, since it depends exactly what's happening
on the ground.

I think the only reasonable alternative is to have something like
addr:housenumber:start=1 + addr:housenumber:end=3. Which is clearer that
this is a range and allows data consumers to understand it better.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 at 13:34, Paul White  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building
> using a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street). This is
> a bad idea because some areas in the United States and possibly elsewhere
> use hyphenated street numbers for individual dwellings.[1] Data consumers
> see these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well. Other methods
> documented here
> 
>  work
> better, in my opinion.
>
> I hope to get some input on this issue and the best path forward.
>
> Best, Paul
>
> [1]
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queens#Streets
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Lawn%2C_New_Jersey#Grid-based_address_system
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address#United_States
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


[Tagging] We should stop using hyphens to denote address ranges

2020-08-17 Thread Paul White
Hello,

I wanted to raise a concern about tagging house numbers on a building using
a hyphen to denote the address range (e.g 33-55 Main Street). This is a bad
idea because some areas in the United States and possibly elsewhere use
hyphenated street numbers for individual dwellings.[1] Data consumers see
these hyphenated house numbers as one address, as well. Other methods
documented here

work
better, in my opinion.

I hope to get some input on this issue and the best path forward.

Best, Paul

[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queens#Streets
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Lawn%2C_New_Jersey#Grid-based_address_system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Address#United_States
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging