Re: [Tagging] What is OSM: a base layer for individual maps, or a fully featured geobased information system?

[Richard Z.]

On Wed, Apr 02, 2014 at 08:18:12PM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> Problem is that while "wanting things to show on the map" is a strong
> motivator for people, it doesn't scale - we are not far from the point
> where for every feature we add to our main map we have to remove another
> feature from this map. The map is already saturated with features. Still
> we hope that we can motivate people to add more detail - but such
> motivation must come through specialist applications and maps, and not
> be defined by "this shows on the main map and this doesn't".

The map is saturated - isn't it only the question of the right zoom-level?
I think sooner or later a few more zoom-levels become inevitable.

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] What is OSM: a base layer for individual maps, or a fully featured geobased information system?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 02.04.2014 17:20, André Pirard wrote:
>>> BUT: I asked OsmAnd to render the tag, and the
>>> answer was - quite understandable: "/Only officially supported tags will
>>> be rendered/". 

>> This is silly. How do they define "officially supported tag"? There's no
>> such thing in OpenStreetMap.

> I wonder why you find Osmand or other persons silly when they wonder
> what and how they should render of the mass we produce,

I find it silly to say "we only render officially supported tags". Not
more, not less.

> On the other hand, I wonder what the ranted expression "tagging for the
> renderer" means.

It means deliberately mapping things differently than they are on the
ground in order to achieve a desired rendering result.

> What I find silly is to tag say apartments or kayak wharf, whatever, and
> spend lots of OSM change sets trying to pick one of the well defined
> tags rendering them "not for the renderer".
> Is it silly to want those features to show other than like the invisible
> man on the recreation_ground or summer_resort among the other features
> nicely showing on that ground, and the miniature_golf not showing like
> the Adam's and Eve's orchard?

Problem is that while "wanting things to show on the map" is a strong
motivator for people, it doesn't scale - we are not far from the point
where for every feature we add to our main map we have to remove another
feature from this map. The map is already saturated with features. Still
we hope that we can motivate people to add more detail - but such
motivation must come through specialist applications and maps, and not
be defined by "this shows on the main map and this doesn't".

> *render=<**wikimedia-color
> **>*

> Chaos you said?  Not.

Perhaps we should simply let people edit tiles with the Gimp ;)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] What is OSM: a base layer for individual maps, or a fully featured geobased information system?

[André Pirard]

On 2014-03-30 13:50, Frederik Ramm wrote :
> Hi,
>
> On 29.03.2014 13:41, nounours77 wrote:
>> BUT: I asked OsmAnd to render the tag, and the
>> answer was - quite understandable: "/Only officially supported tags will
>> be rendered/". 
> This is silly. How do they define "officially supported tag"? There's no
> such thing in OpenStreetMap.
>
> I suspect the what the OsmAnd people really mean is "we can't render
> every little thing else the map becomes unreadable". Which certainly is
> correct but at the same time means they will have their own rules and
> ideas about what to show and what not.
>
> (If you should be under the impression that once a tag has gone through
> a proposal it will magically show up on openstreetmap.org then you're
> wrong.)
>
I prefer the expression "well defined tag" (by wiki or per se) rather
than "officially supported" (what support? how official?).

I wonder why you find Osmand or other persons silly when they wonder
what and how they should render of the mass we produce, after it has
been said on this list: there is no need to make proposals, just go
ahead tagging as you feel it and discuss that among your mates.

On the other hand, I wonder what the ranted expression "tagging for the
renderer" means.
According to its latest revision, that is "making a tagging mistake to
obtain some rendering".
OK, OK, but what then is "a tagging mistake" if everybody "have their
own rules and ideas about what to show and what not", and  "have their
own rules and ideas about what to tag and how" in a not very "well
defined manner"?
Are those persons silly too?

What I find silly is to tag say apartments or kayak wharf, whatever, and
spend lots of OSM change sets trying to pick one of the well defined
tags rendering them "not for the renderer".
Is it silly to want those features to show other than like the invisible
man on the recreation_ground or summer_resort among the other features
nicely showing on that ground, and the miniature_golf not showing like
the Adam's and Eve's orchard?


To solve that issue, I make the following suggestion (not proposal
because you said it's unnecessary):

*render=<**wikimedia-color
**>*

That may win the shortest definition contest. Almost...
Alas, it applies only to fill areas, but that's prominent need, let
alone the tightrope walker's show.
Any similar idea for ways and nodes welcome.
Together with name=* written inside, it's the essential for map readers
to find their way.
Chaos you said?  Not.
It's agreed that any time the other tags will produce another rendering,
it will supersede render=*.
Up to the renderer.
I think it needs no : or other prefix as it's perfectly
general (and as mapnik supports *osmarender:render*=no
 ;-))

Any comments, ±1 or +100 welcome.

Cheers,

André.



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Re: [Tagging] What is OSM: a base layer for individual maps, or a fully featured geobased information system?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 29.03.2014 13:41, nounours77 wrote:
> BUT: I asked OsmAnd to render the tag, and the
> answer was - quite understandable: "/Only officially supported tags will
> be rendered/". 

This is silly. How do they define "officially supported tag"? There's no
such thing in OpenStreetMap.

I suspect the what the OsmAnd people really mean is "we can't render
every little thing else the map becomes unreadable". Which certainly is
correct but at the same time means they will have their own rules and
ideas about what to show and what not.

(If you should be under the impression that once a tag has gone through
a proposal it will magically show up on openstreetmap.org then you're
wrong.)

> My answer to this would be: make a reasonable, understandable, clear and
> clean tagging scheme, discuss it, vote it, document it. If done
> properly, the data will come and the rendering as well.

The danger of that is that it will stifle development more than the
current free-for-all because no tagging scheme can be complete, and
extensions would then always have to go over big hurdles.

> Please, what is your vision of OSM? A or B?

There is no logical link between your scenarios "A" and "B" and having a
fixed tagging schema or not.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] What is OSM: a base layer for individual maps, or a fully featured geobased information system?

[Dan S]

Hi -

I'm afraid the answer is "neither". OSM is a database for geodata that
is open-licensed, publicly verifiable and not short-term. This means
it's more than just a base-layer. But it also means it's not a
database for all possible geodata. We don't include holiday apartment
reviews/ratings because they're too subjective; we don't include the
local temperature because it changes too quickly.

You're going to have to live with the fact that (a) no-one wants to
render your tag until it has some momentum, while (b) rendering
certainly helps a tag get momentum, but that doesn't mean that your
tag "deserves" that benefit yet. Much better is if you start using
your tag, and then maybe the community of boat-sharing users starts to
use it too, and maybe renders a special boat-sharing map, and the
tagging develops organically. It doesn't make a big difference whether
it's been officially voted in or not.

There will always be geodata that doesn't belong in OSM, such as house
prices, tripadvisor ratings, crime rates. OSM doesn't need to ingest
this data in order to be useful; it needs to be available to get
mashed-up with this data.

Best
Dan


2014-03-29 12:41 GMT+00:00 nounours77 :
> Hi there,
>
> Not sure if this is the right place for this philosophical question. But
> starting from the comment of Brycenesbitt to my apartment-proposal "I feel
> this will become yet another piece of unmaintanable data in OSM." and
> several comments I got on my boat_sharing proposal "just use it, don't go
> through proposal process" I think it's a important question. What do we
> define tags for?
>
> A) OSM is just a base layer
> We tag just for general features of the landscape, and maybe roads. This
> will make a beautiful map, which then can be used as a base layer, e.g. for
> a holiday-apartment renting agency, which than can render all there
> apartments from their own private database as an overlay on OSM base layer.
> => this will mean, "we" do not have to maintain the apartment info, nor has
> the provider to bother with OSM. This is much easier. But means that the
> information is only avaible on the agencies website, and thus there will be
> million places I have to look for the info.
>
> B) OSM as a fully featured geobased information system
> We see of OSM a a standalone, fully featured geobased information system. I
> can take the map in my pocket (like on the iPhone App "PocketEarth", or
> "OsmAnd"), and will everywhere have any kind of information. I'm driving
> through a village, I like it, and I want to stay. So, where are the next
> nice holiday-apartments around me?
> Of course, this only works, if the data is maintained and current. But: I
> want OSM to get important enough that every service provider offering a
> service to a wide enough public is just forced in his own interest to
> publish it's data on OSM and keep it current.
>
> As a conclusion for us this means: Yes, we need a defined tagging (accepted
> proposal) for tourism=apartment, ifnot, never ever all service providers
> will put their apartment on OSM. And never the Apps like PocketEarth or
> OsmAnd will support to render it.
> I was advised by several persons that I should just use
> "tourism=boat_sharing", and not bother about going through a proposal and
> voting process. BUT: I asked OsmAnd to render the tag, and the answer was -
> quite understandable: "Only officially supported tags will be rendered".
> There we are again with the well know snake which bites it's tail: No data -
> no rendering. No rendering, nobody collects data or publishes it on OSM.
> My answer to this would be: make a reasonable, understandable, clear and
> clean tagging scheme, discuss it, vote it, document it. If done properly,
> the data will come and the rendering as well.
>
> Please, what is your vision of OSM? A or B?
>
> If A, I will stop bothering about tourism=apartment, amenity=boat_sharing,
> or amenity=nursery, since this are all "service informations" you can argue
> you can find somewhere else ...
> But if it's B), then we need all that to make OSM the best, most complete
> and inevitable geobased information system.
>
> Thanks for your comments, and yes, I reopened the boat_sharing proposal for
> voting, just in case somebody wants to support me!!!
>
> Have a nice week-end,
>
> Nounours77
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/boat_sharing
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/apartment
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] What is OSM: a base layer for individual maps, or a fully featured geobased information system?

[Dave Swarthout]

I am in the B category for my vision of OSM. I had not voted on these
because they aren't important to me and i will never probably use either
tag but the work you've done is good and I just now voted Yes on both.

While I was reading through the table of possible tourism=*_hut I noticed
that you mentioned mountain_hut several times but it was not originally
included in the table. I assumed you meant to say alpine_hut and edited the
proposal replacing mountain_hut with alpine_hut. I am new to this and after
the fact, realized I should have brought it up here first.

Then thinking I'd better backtrack and undo my edits, I checked with
Taginfo and found that mountain_hut is used 7 times — not very often but it
is there. So I took the further liberty of adding it to the list of keys in
the table. My apologies if I was out of line.

But my discovery does point out the need to somehow better define what
these accommodations are and unify the ones we can agree need to be
unified. Those various types of huts need to be either better
differentiated or if that can't be done, put together under fewer keys. I
also agree that the differences between a hotel, hostel, guest_house, and
motel are perhaps to fine to worry about.

More work ahead

Alaska Dave




On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 7:41 PM, nounours77 wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> Not sure if this is the right place for this philosophical question. But
> starting from the comment of 
> Brycenesbitt to
> my apartment-proposal "*I feel this will become yet another piece of
> unmaintanable data in OSM." *and several comments I got on my
> boat_sharing proposal "*just use it, don't go through proposal process*"
> I think it's a important question. What do we define tags for?
>
> *A) OSM is just a base layer*
> We tag just for general features of the landscape, and maybe roads. This
> will make a beautiful map, which then can be used as a base layer, e.g. for
> a holiday-apartment renting agency, which than can render all there
> apartments from their own private database as an overlay on OSM base layer.
> => this will mean, "we" do not have to maintain the apartment info, nor
> has the provider to bother with OSM. This is much easier. But means that
> the information is only avaible on the agencies website, and thus there
> will be million places I have to look for the info.
>
> *B) OSM as a fully featured geobased information system*
> We see of OSM a a standalone, fully featured geobased information system.
> I can take the map in my pocket (like on the iPhone App "PocketEarth", or
> "OsmAnd"), and will everywhere have any kind of information. I'm driving
> through a village, I like it, and I want to stay. So, where are the next
> nice holiday-apartments around me?
> Of course, this only works, if the data is maintained and current. But: I
> want OSM to get important enough that every service provider offering a
> service to a wide enough public is just forced in his own interest to
> publish it's data on OSM and keep it current.
>
> As a conclusion for us this means: Yes, we need a defined tagging
> (accepted proposal) for tourism=apartment, ifnot, never ever all service
> providers will put their apartment on OSM. And never the Apps like
> PocketEarth or OsmAnd will support to render it.
> I was advised by several persons that I should just use
> "tourism=boat_sharing", and not bother about going through a proposal and
> voting process. BUT: I asked OsmAnd to render the tag, and the answer was -
> quite understandable: "*Only officially supported tags will be rendered*".
> There we are again with the well know snake which bites it's tail: No data
> - no rendering. No rendering, nobody collects data or publishes it on OSM.
> My answer to this would be: make a reasonable, understandable, clear and
> clean tagging scheme, discuss it, vote it, document it. If done properly,
> the data will come and the rendering as well.
>
> Please, what is your vision of OSM? A or B?
>
> If A, I will stop bothering about tourism=apartment, amenity=boat_sharing,
> or amenity=nursery, since this are all "service informations" you can argue
> you can find somewhere else ...
> But if it's B), then we need all that to make OSM the best, most complete
> and inevitable geobased information system.
>
> Thanks for your comments, and yes, I reopened the boat_sharing proposal
> for voting, just in case somebody wants to support me!!!
>
> Have a nice week-end,
>
> Nounours77
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/boat_sharing
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/apartment
>
>
> ___
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>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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[Tagging] What is OSM: a base layer for individual maps, or a fully featured geobased information system?

[nounours77]

Hi there,

Not sure if this is the right place for this philosophical question. But 
starting from the comment of Brycenesbitt to my apartment-proposal "I feel this 
will become yet another piece of unmaintanable data in OSM." and several 
comments I got on my boat_sharing proposal "just use it, don't go through 
proposal process" I think it's a important question. What do we define tags for?

A) OSM is just a base layer
We tag just for general features of the landscape, and maybe roads. This will 
make a beautiful map, which then can be used as a base layer, e.g. for a 
holiday-apartment renting agency, which than can render all there apartments 
from their own private database as an overlay on OSM base layer.
=> this will mean, "we" do not have to maintain the apartment info, nor has the 
provider to bother with OSM. This is much easier. But means that the 
information is only avaible on the agencies website, and thus there will be 
million places I have to look for the info.

B) OSM as a fully featured geobased information system
We see of OSM a a standalone, fully featured geobased information system. I can 
take the map in my pocket (like on the iPhone App "PocketEarth", or "OsmAnd"), 
and will everywhere have any kind of information. I'm driving through a 
village, I like it, and I want to stay. So, where are the next nice 
holiday-apartments around me?
Of course, this only works, if the data is maintained and current. But: I want 
OSM to get important enough that every service provider offering a service to a 
wide enough public is just forced in his own interest to publish it's data on 
OSM and keep it current.

As a conclusion for us this means: Yes, we need a defined tagging (accepted 
proposal) for tourism=apartment, ifnot, never ever all service providers will 
put their apartment on OSM. And never the Apps like PocketEarth or OsmAnd will 
support to render it.
I was advised by several persons that I should just use "tourism=boat_sharing", 
and not bother about going through a proposal and voting process. BUT: I asked 
OsmAnd to render the tag, and the answer was - quite understandable: "Only 
officially supported tags will be rendered". There we are again with the well 
know snake which bites it's tail: No data - no rendering. No rendering, nobody 
collects data or publishes it on OSM.
My answer to this would be: make a reasonable, understandable, clear and clean 
tagging scheme, discuss it, vote it, document it. If done properly, the data 
will come and the rendering as well.

Please, what is your vision of OSM? A or B?

If A, I will stop bothering about tourism=apartment, amenity=boat_sharing, or 
amenity=nursery, since this are all "service informations" you can argue you 
can find somewhere else ...
But if it's B), then we need all that to make OSM the best, most complete and 
inevitable geobased information system.

Thanks for your comments, and yes, I reopened the boat_sharing proposal for 
voting, just in case somebody wants to support me!!!

Have a nice week-end,

Nounours77

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/boat_sharing
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/apartment

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