Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 05/03/2017 07:39 PM, Thilo Haug OSM wrote:
> I think we will discourage a bunch of potentially interested
> contributors to add anything
> if some request a discussion / proposal ("doctorate") for every slight
> adjustment/documentation update.

On the other hand, if we allow anyone with little OSM experience who is
"potentially interested" to re-arrange documentation for well
established tags (that the person didn't know about because of their
lack of experience), that would then only contribute to the sentiment
that the Wiki is rubbish anyway and should not be taken seriously.

(quoting "Karora"):
> Meanwhile the wiki has
> perfectly adequate features around watchlists and discussion pages that
> don't require me to parse all that noise just to hear the one
> conversation that I am interested in. 

The idea that wiki discussions could somehow replace mailing lists
usually comes from people who have a strong Wikipedia background where
this is common practice; it isn't so in OSM. Many active mappers don't
even have a wiki account.

As long as you edit the wiki to describe what obviously is common
practice in OSM, you're doing an useful job and you're unlikely to meet
criticism. If you get too bold and start documenting what you think
*should* be done (i.e. bring your own normative ideas into play), things
become more difficult and you need to tread carefully. "Nobody said
anything against my edit when I proposed it on the wiki talk page" is
not a carte blanche in OSM.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi Martin,

I have no clue what you mean with "downloaded the other day all objects",
I just adjusted a couple of objects (~5) whose tagging was very erratic.

In a lot of wiki descriptions is mentioned to "just act" if necessary.
I've taken the most common parameters and combined them with the most
obvious (existing) key.
That's not rocket science... ;-)
If someone feels that this should be documented more specific he/her is
free to do so.

I think we will discourage a bunch of potentially interested
contributors to add anything
if some request a discussion / proposal ("doctorate") for every slight
adjustment/documentation update.
There are some (older) opinions here, I think this should be followed up:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposal_process#Cleanup_Request
One example :
Yeah. The mailing list is kind of daunting. It seems to get a zillion
messages a day, but if I want to cut to the chase and discuss a new
feature I feel it will be lost in the noise. Meanwhile the wiki has
perfectly adequate features around watchlists and discussion pages that
don't require me to parse all that noise just to hear the one
conversation that I am interested in. Karora 10:39, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 02.05.2017 um 13:04 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> 2017-05-01 23:14 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug OSM  >:
>
> [...]  changing without reviewing cases individually
>
>
>
> this one?
>
> It leaves a bit of a bad taste if you declare on the mailing list 'I'm
> getting tired of this "discussion and proposal" stuff' and then it
> gets discovered you downloaded and modified the other day all objects
> of a certain kind to unify their tagging with a previously
> undocumented and hardly used tag, and then modify the wiki to document
> this style of tagging. And then write an announcement here without
> telling anybody that you modified these objects to fit your documentation.
>
> On the other hand, I don't think it is completely harmful what you
> have done, because there are so few of these objects and we would all
> benefit from uniform tagging. The main issue is with the key you
> chose, of which the general definition is in contradiction with the
> specific tag you added, but I am trying to fix tis by extending the
> key definition with a proposal.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-05-01 23:14 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug OSM :

> [...]  changing without reviewing cases individually



this one?

It leaves a bit of a bad taste if you declare on the mailing list 'I'm
getting tired of this "discussion and proposal" stuff' and then it gets
discovered you downloaded and modified the other day all objects of a
certain kind to unify their tagging with a previously undocumented and
hardly used tag, and then modify the wiki to document this style of
tagging. And then write an announcement here without telling anybody that
you modified these objects to fit your documentation.

On the other hand, I don't think it is completely harmful what you have
done, because there are so few of these objects and we would all benefit
from uniform tagging. The main issue is with the key you chose, of which
the general definition is in contradiction with the specific tag you added,
but I am trying to fix this by extending the key definition with a proposal.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Am 01.05.2017 um 22:34 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> surely their performer didn't follow the automated edits code of conduct.
O really, which case applies ?

  * changes made by Bots ,
which by definition act autonomously from human intervention.
  * data imports , including
both fully automated imports and ones where a standard editor is used;
  * other scripted changes made to the database;
  * [...]  changing without reviewing cases individually

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct


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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-05-01 18:55 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug :

> if you generally think that "aeroway (is) not appropriate for spacecraft",
> but people already used it before, why don't you create a proposal
> for the "correct" tagging in your point of view ?
>

I don't need to write my own proposal to point out that the tag you are
pushing is in contradiction to the general definition of the key. Actually,
this is one of the reasons why there is a proposal process at all: point
out problems.

In the whole world, there was one instance of this tag from 2014 to 2016,
when it raised to 6. Currently there are 15 instances of this, thanks to a
certain user "ti-lo" who unified the tagging of some more objects, removing
concurrent tags like "amenity=space_centre", amenity=spaceport,
aeroway=aerodrome, e.g.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/327972299/history
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/37657178/history
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/939989786/history
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/449478881/history

I am not saying these edits were bad, but surely their performer didn't
follow the automated edits code of conduct.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Thilo Haug]

Hi Martin,

if you generally think that "aeroway (is) not appropriate for spacecraft",
but people already used it before, why don't you create a proposal
for the "correct" tagging in your point of view ?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:aeroway%3Dspaceport

I'm getting tired of this "discussion and proposal" stuff
if it just leads to thwart obviously necessary documentation updates.

As of my current OSM experience,
the discussion culture urgently needs an update
in terms of a "code of conduct".

Cheers,
Thilo


Am 01.05.2017 um 18:44 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> 2017-05-01 18:30 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug OSM  >:
>
> Hello all,
>
> as aeroway=spaceport was already in use,
> I created a wiki description for it :
>
>
>
> as you know from the parallel thread you have started, this
> combination is disputed. There is no usage in numbers that would
> justify "de facto" usage documentation IMHO, please make this a proposal.
>
> Thank you,
> Martin
>
>
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Thilo Haug
Bismarckstr.37
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Mobil: +49 177 3185856
Festnetz : +49 7121 3826414

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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-05-01 18:30 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug OSM :

> Hello all,
>
> as aeroway=spaceport was already in use,
> I created a wiki description for it :
>


as you know from the parallel thread you have started, this combination is
disputed. There is no usage in numbers that would justify "de facto" usage
documentation IMHO, please make this a proposal.

Thank you,
Martin
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[Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hello all,

as aeroway=spaceport was already in use,
I created a wiki description for it :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Dspaceport

Launchpad is also in use :
http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/oL2

I case you feel this should be further discussed,
please leave your comment here :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:aeroway%3Dspaceport

Cheers,
Thilo


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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport, aeroway=launchpad, aeroway=landingpad

[Thilo Haug]

Hello all,

I agree with Martin,
as the recent developments in rocket technology
could also have made a change in people's point of view.

There's a third area I forgot to mention :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceX_Landing_Zone_1

As it differs from a launchpad (no tower), it should be distinguished,
example :
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/327972299#map=17/28.48554/-80.54476

Example start & landing :
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ORBCOMM-2_(23815832891).jpg

I'm just wondering whether "landingpad" might be confused with those :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Dhelipad
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:emergency%3Dlanding_site

Answered Martin's question here, please state your opinion :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Aeroways

Just in case you didn't follow the last developments :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_tourism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_the_Moon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missions_to_Mars#Future_missions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mission_to_Mars

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 29.04.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 28. Apr 2017, at 21:53, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>>
>> I think everyone interested in spacefaring must have turned away from
>> the wiki when the amenity=skyhook proposal was rejected in 2008 by
>> people without the slightest bit of vision:
>
> everyone of the 25.000 registered users in early 2008, but we've now a much 
> bigger userbase so it might be worth giving it a second try...
>
> cheers,
> Martin 
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72764 Reutlingen

Mobil: +49 177 3185856
Festnetz : +49 7121 3826414



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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport , aeroway=launchpad

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 28. Apr 2017, at 22:50, Thilo Haug OSM  wrote:
> 
> What do you think about aeroway=spaceport ?


I'm not sure aeroway is the right key, it is about aircraft and air travel, 
while spacecraft typically try to escape the air to get rid of the friction/air 
resistance, rather than using it as ascending force.

What about spaceway as a new key? Or simply use man_made?

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 28. Apr 2017, at 21:53, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> I think everyone interested in spacefaring must have turned away from
> the wiki when the amenity=skyhook proposal was rejected in 2008 by
> people without the slightest bit of vision:


everyone of the 25.000 registered users in early 2008, but we've now a much 
bigger userbase so it might be worth giving it a second try...

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport , aeroway=launchpad

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi Frederik,

I think the main difference is
that spaceports already exist (and are "on the ground") :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaceport
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_launch_sites

In case of the skyhook I'm not so surprised of the denial,
given the culture of denial without constructive criticism
which isn't controlled a.t.m. by an appropriate social rule.
Will IMHO get worse the more people participate,
imagine all facebook-users commenting proposals...

What do you think about aeroway=spaceport ?
I'm not a specialist in spaceport infrastructure,
but I'd generally like to be able to filter for them in OSM,
which isn't possible if they are tagged as
"amenity=space_centre/spaceport/cosmodrome/..."
See the examples mentioned here :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Aeroways#aeroway.3Dspaceport

For further details I could imagine using
aeroway=launchpad
(similar to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Dhelipad)

The rest of the buildings should IMHO be similar to an airport,
or standard tags may be used :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Aeroways
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dbunker

Cheers,
Thilo

Am 28.04.2017 um 20:45 schrieb Thilo Haug OSM:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm astonished there isn't a description for spaceports yet,
> therefore the tagging differs widely :
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Aeroways#aeroway.3Dspaceport
>
> - Proposals / Opinions ?
>
> IMHO amenity doesn't fit well,
> as it's just another kind of airport.
>
> Cheers,
> Thilo
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] aeroway=spaceport

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 28.04.2017 20:45, Thilo Haug OSM wrote:
> I'm astonished there isn't a description for spaceports yet,

I think everyone interested in spacefaring must have turned away from
the wiki when the amenity=skyhook proposal was rejected in 2008 by
people without the slightest bit of vision:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Skyhook

Bye
Frederik

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[Tagging] aeroway=spaceport

[Thilo Haug OSM]

Hi all,

I'm astonished there isn't a description for spaceports yet,
therefore the tagging differs widely :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Aeroways#aeroway.3Dspaceport

- Proposals / Opinions ?

IMHO amenity doesn't fit well,
as it's just another kind of airport.

Cheers,
Thilo



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