Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[Warin]

On 25/11/18 13:50, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 05:27, Colin Smale > wrote:


So in terms of physical things to map, we have at least locations,
masts, cells, sectors, antennas,

Ahh, but is it all hanging off a mast, a tower or a pole? :-)


No. Some antennas are mounted on the ground, some are mounted on home 
roofs.


Take a look at the photos on 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 05:27, Colin Smale  wrote:

> So in terms of physical things to map, we have at least locations, masts,
> cells, sectors, antennas,
>
Ahh, but is it all hanging off a mast, a tower or a pole? :-)

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[François Lacombe]

Le dim. 25 nov. 2018 à 00:36, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> a écrit :

>
> I am saying that at present there are mappers using less than precise tags
> with man_made=antenna and that needs to have some guidance in order not to
> end up with a bigger mess than it already is.
>

This topic needs a proper proposal in the wiki to add several value to
telecom=* key.
Several months of work are needed to get a sustainable tagging model
It's a good opportunity to improve telecom=* and clean up man_made.

Avoiding keys like antenna:type in favor of antenna:model or design or
usage would be great.


François
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[François Lacombe]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_transceiver_station is confusing the BTS
and the place itself.
A BTS as a device that doesn't include antennas since antennas are
connected to it actually.

Like any antenna (even the microwave backhaul link antenna), a BTS is a
device in the technical site.
Pretty often, there are several BTS in a single site and several antennas
can be fed by a single BTS.

It's almost impossible to map all this stuff in a single node.
The place should be a closed area.
Each BTS, masts, antennas should get their own node inside the closed area.

Coaxial cable schemes may be complex between active equipments
(BTS/nodeB/eNodeB or RRU) and antennas, I'm not sure we'll be able to map
this in OSM with a dedicated topology.
Surveying for fenced perimeters, masts, BTS and antennas would be a really
great achivement to begin with.

All the best

François

Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 20:30, Sergio Manzi  a écrit :

> Right, forgot about that!   :-)
>
> On 2018-11-24 20:26, Colin Smale wrote:
> > And possibly microwave backhaul equipment
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[Warin]

On 25/11/18 01:50, Sergio Manzi wrote:


I like it!

To me it makes much more sense to tag telecom=BTS (Base Transceiver 
Station, see [1 
]) than 
man_made:antenna + antenna:type=whatever.


But BTS is not indicated as possible value for telecom=* in the wiki...



I am not advocating the use of man_made=antenna with or in place of some 
other tag that already incorporates an antenna e.g man_made=telescope, 
telescope:type=radio


I am saying that at present there are mappers using less than precise 
tags with man_made=antenna and that needs to have some guidance in order 
not to end up with a bigger mess than it already is.




Cheers,

Sergio

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_transceiver_station


On 2018-11-24 15:22, François Lacombe wrote:

Hi all
It would be great to use telecom=* instead of man_made or communications

Antennas is a difgicult topic to address in osm since there can be 
many of them at the same time. They should be distinguished from mast 
and supports since antennas are only devices


All the best

François

Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 14:59, Joseph Eisenberg 
mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> a 
écrit :


I’d been thinking about this lately while working on towers and
radio telescopes.

Towers can be tagged with tower:construction =dish and this is
rendered as “satellite” dish sending or receiving waves, in the
Openstreetmap-Carto style.

Radio telescopes are now rendered as well.

But there are some satellite uplink dishes mistagged as radio
telescopes.

Other tags in use are man_made=communications_dish and
man_made=satellite_dish

But neither is very well documented, I recall.

I’d be happy to have a better way to tag these dishes.
On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 9:52 PM Paul Allen mailto:pla16...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 1:48 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> wrote:

I was looking at the wiki for antennas

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna


I made some additions to the definition and added some
photos etc.

It is still rather sparse. I'd like to be able to further
define what the antenna is.

I have some pictures of various antennas in my area.  Well,
they're pictures of masts but the
antennas are sometimes discernible.  Any idea for a good
place to dump them so they can
contribute to antenna/mast examples that people can add to
wiki pages as appropriate?

Worst case, you want me to mail them to you and you can
decide what to do with them?


-- 
Paul


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[Sergio Manzi]

Right, forgot about that!   :-)

On 2018-11-24 20:26, Colin Smale wrote:
> And possibly microwave backhaul equipment



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[Colin Smale]

And just to add to the confusion, there are usually three antennas per
BTS, which cover ~120 degree sectors, so the RF power can be adjusted in
each sector individually to give the desired amount of overlap with
adjacent cells. 

So in terms of physical things to map, we have at least locations,
masts, cells, sectors, antennas, and base stations. And possibly
microwave backhaul equipment.

On 2018-11-24 19:47, Sergio Manzi wrote:

> So... how many tags will this node have, once you have tagged all of its 
> components? 
> 
> From [1 [3]]: 
> 
>> A BTS is usually COMPOSED OF: Transceiver (TRX) Provides transmission and 
>> reception of signals. It also does sending and reception of signals to and 
>> from higher network entities (like the base station controller [1] in mobile 
>> telephony). Power amplifier (PA) Amplifies the signal from TRX for 
>> transmission through antenna; may be integrated with TRX. Combiner Combines 
>> feeds from several TRXs so that they could be sent out through a single 
>> antenna. Allows for a reduction in the number of antenna used. Multiplexer 
>> For separating sending and receiving signals to/from antenna. Does sending 
>> and receiving signals through the same antenna ports (cables to antenna). 
>> Antenna This is the structure that the BTS lies underneath; it can be 
>> installed as it is or disguised in some way (Concealed cell sites [2]). 
>> Alarm extension system Collects working status alarms of various units in 
>> the BTS and extends them to operations and maintenance (O) monitoring 
>> stations. Control function Controls and
manages the various units of BTS, including any software. On-the-spot 
configurations, status changes, software upgrades, etc. are done through the 
control function. Baseband receiver unit (BBxx) Frequency hopping, signal DSP.
> 
> Mapping each component (_yes, the antenna too..._) separatly doesn't make 
> much sense to me... 
> 
> Sergio 
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_transceiver_station
> 
> On 2018-11-24 17:59, François Lacombe wrote: 
> "BTS" is another object and differ from antennas since the antennas are 
> connected to BTS/nodeB/eNodeB. 
> 
> Both can be mapped with telecom=* and BTS will often get 
> man_made=street_cabinet 
> 
> Recently reviewed Telecom=service_device is suitable for "BTS" cabinets with 
> telecom:medium=radio and aditional tags for 3GPP technology 2G/3G or LTE. 
> 
> Several antennas can be fed by a single radio cabinet  
> 
> François 
> 
> Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 15:51, Sergio Manzi  a écrit : 
> 
> I like it! 
> 
> To me it makes much more sense to tag telecom=BTS (Base Transceiver Station, 
> see [1 [3]]) than man_made:antenna + antenna:type=whatever. 
> 
> But BTS is not indicated as possible value for telecom=* in the wiki... 
> 
> Cheers, 
> 
> Sergio 
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_transceiver_station 
> 
> On 2018-11-24 15:22, François Lacombe wrote: 
> Hi all 
> It would be great to use telecom=* instead of man_made or communications 
> 
> Antennas is a difgicult topic to address in osm since there can be many of 
> them at the same time. They should be distinguished from mast and supports 
> since antennas are only devices 
> 
> All the best 
> 
> François 
> 
> Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 14:59, Joseph Eisenberg  a 
> écrit : I'd been thinking about this lately while working on towers and radio 
> telescopes. 
> 
> Towers can be tagged with tower:construction =dish and this is rendered as 
> "satellite" dish sending or receiving waves, in the Openstreetmap-Carto style.
> 
> Radio telescopes are now rendered as well.
> 
> But there are some satellite uplink dishes mistagged as radio telescopes.
> 
> Other tags in use are man_made=communications_dish and man_made=satellite_dish
> 
> But neither is very well documented, I recall.
> 
> I'd be happy to have a better way to tag these dishes.
> 
> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 9:52 PM Paul Allen  wrote: 
> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 1:48 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I was looking at the wiki for antennas 
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna 
> 
> I made some additions to the definition and added some photos etc. 
> 
> It is still rather sparse. I'd like to be able to further define what the 
> antenna is. 
> I have some pictures of various antennas in my area.  Well, they're pictures 
> of masts but the 
> antennas are sometimes discernible.  Any idea for a good place to dump them 
> so they can 
> contribute to antenna/mast examples that people can add to wiki pages as 
> appropriate? 
> 
> Worst case, you want me to mail them to you and you can decide what to do 
> with them? 
> 
> -- 
> Paul 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
 ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[Sergio Manzi]

So... how many tags will this node have, once you have tagged all of its 
components?

From [1 ]:

> A *BTS *is usually *composed of*:
>
> Transceiver (TRX)
> Provides transmission and reception of signals. It also does sending and 
> reception of signals to and from higher network entities (like the base 
> station controller  in 
> mobile telephony).
> Power amplifier (PA)
> Amplifies the signal from TRX for transmission through antenna; may be 
> integrated with TRX.
> Combiner
> Combines feeds from several TRXs so that they could be sent out through a 
> single antenna. Allows for a reduction in the number of antenna used.
> Multiplexer
> For separating sending and receiving signals to/from antenna. Does 
> sending and receiving signals through the same antenna ports (cables to 
> antenna).
> Antenna
> This is the structure that the BTS lies underneath; it can be installed 
> as it is or disguised in some way (Concealed cell sites 
> ).
> Alarm extension system
> Collects working status alarms of various units in the BTS and extends 
> them to operations and maintenance (O) monitoring stations.
> Control function
> Controls and manages the various units of BTS, including any software. 
> On-the-spot configurations, status changes, software upgrades, etc. are done 
> through the control function.
> Baseband receiver unit (BBxx)
> Frequency hopping, signal DSP.
>
Mapping each component (/yes, the antenna too.../) separatly doesn't make much 
sense to me...

Sergio


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_transceiver_station

On 2018-11-24 17:59, François Lacombe wrote:
> "BTS" is another object and differ from antennas since the antennas are 
> connected to BTS/nodeB/eNodeB.
>
> Both can be mapped with telecom=* and BTS will often get 
> man_made=street_cabinet
>
> Recently reviewed Telecom=service_device is suitable for "BTS" cabinets with 
> telecom:medium=radio and aditional tags for 3GPP technology 2G/3G or LTE.
>
> Several antennas can be fed by a single radio cabinet 
>
> François
>
> Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 15:51, Sergio Manzi mailto:s...@smz.it>> 
> a écrit :
>
> I like it!
>
> To me it makes much more sense to tag telecom=BTS (Base Transceiver 
> Station, see [1 ]) 
> than man_made:antenna + antenna:type=whatever.
>
> But BTS is not indicated as possible value for telecom=* in the wiki...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sergio
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_transceiver_station
>
>
> On 2018-11-24 15:22, François Lacombe wrote:
>> Hi all
>> It would be great to use telecom=* instead of man_made or communications
>>
>> Antennas is a difgicult topic to address in osm since there can be many 
>> of them at the same time. They should be distinguished from mast and 
>> supports since antennas are only devices
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> François
>>
>> Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 14:59, Joseph Eisenberg 
>> mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> a écrit :
>>
>> I’d been thinking about this lately while working on towers and 
>> radio telescopes.
>>
>> Towers can be tagged with tower:construction =dish and this is 
>> rendered as “satellite” dish sending or receiving waves, in the 
>> Openstreetmap-Carto style.
>>
>> Radio telescopes are now rendered as well.
>>
>> But there are some satellite uplink dishes mistagged as radio 
>> telescopes.
>>
>> Other tags in use are man_made=communications_dish and 
>> man_made=satellite_dish
>>
>> But neither is very well documented, I recall.
>>
>> I’d be happy to have a better way to tag these dishes.
>> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 9:52 PM Paul Allen > > wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 1:48 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
>> > wrote:
>>
>> I was looking at the wiki for antennas
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna
>>
>>
>> I made some additions to the definition and added some 
>> photos etc.
>>
>> It is still rather sparse. I'd like to be able to further 
>> define what the antenna is.
>>
>> I have some pictures of various antennas in my area.  Well, 
>> they're pictures of masts but the
>> antennas are sometimes discernible.  Any idea for a good place 
>> to dump them so they can
>> contribute to antenna/mast examples that people can add to wiki 
>> pages as appropriate?
>>
>> Worst case, you want me to mail them to you and you can decide 
>> what to do with them?
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Paul
>>
>> ___
>> 

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[François Lacombe]

"BTS" is another object and differ from antennas since the antennas are
connected to BTS/nodeB/eNodeB.

Both can be mapped with telecom=* and BTS will often get
man_made=street_cabinet

Recently reviewed Telecom=service_device is suitable for "BTS" cabinets
with telecom:medium=radio and aditional tags for 3GPP technology 2G/3G or
LTE.

Several antennas can be fed by a single radio cabinet

François

Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 15:51, Sergio Manzi  a écrit :

> I like it!
>
> To me it makes much more sense to tag telecom=BTS (Base Transceiver
> Station, see [1 ])
> than man_made:antenna + antenna:type=whatever.
>
> But BTS is not indicated as possible value for telecom=* in the wiki...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sergio
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_transceiver_station
>
>
> On 2018-11-24 15:22, François Lacombe wrote:
>
> Hi all
> It would be great to use telecom=* instead of man_made or communications
>
> Antennas is a difgicult topic to address in osm since there can be many of
> them at the same time. They should be distinguished from mast and supports
> since antennas are only devices
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
> Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 14:59, Joseph Eisenberg 
> a écrit :
>
>> I’d been thinking about this lately while working on towers and radio
>> telescopes.
>>
>> Towers can be tagged with tower:construction =dish and this is rendered
>> as “satellite” dish sending or receiving waves, in the Openstreetmap-Carto
>> style.
>>
>> Radio telescopes are now rendered as well.
>>
>> But there are some satellite uplink dishes mistagged as radio telescopes.
>>
>> Other tags in use are man_made=communications_dish and
>> man_made=satellite_dish
>>
>> But neither is very well documented, I recall.
>>
>> I’d be happy to have a better way to tag these dishes.
>> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 9:52 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 1:48 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 I was looking at the wiki for antennas

 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna


 I made some additions to the definition and added some photos etc.

 It is still rather sparse. I'd like to be able to further define what
 the antenna is.

>>> I have some pictures of various antennas in my area.  Well, they're
>>> pictures of masts but the
>>> antennas are sometimes discernible.  Any idea for a good place to dump
>>> them so they can
>>> contribute to antenna/mast examples that people can add to wiki pages as
>>> appropriate?
>>>
>>> Worst case, you want me to mail them to you and you can decide what to
>>> do with them?
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing 
> listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[Sergio Manzi]

I like it!

To me it makes much more sense to tag telecom=BTS (Base Transceiver Station, 
see [1 ]) than 
man_made:antenna + antenna:type=whatever.

But BTS is not indicated as possible value for telecom=* in the wiki...

Cheers,

Sergio

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_transceiver_station


On 2018-11-24 15:22, François Lacombe wrote:
> Hi all
> It would be great to use telecom=* instead of man_made or communications
>
> Antennas is a difgicult topic to address in osm since there can be many of 
> them at the same time. They should be distinguished from mast and supports 
> since antennas are only devices
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
> Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 14:59, Joseph Eisenberg  > a écrit :
>
> I’d been thinking about this lately while working on towers and radio 
> telescopes.
>
> Towers can be tagged with tower:construction =dish and this is rendered 
> as “satellite” dish sending or receiving waves, in the Openstreetmap-Carto 
> style.
>
> Radio telescopes are now rendered as well.
>
> But there are some satellite uplink dishes mistagged as radio telescopes.
>
> Other tags in use are man_made=communications_dish and 
> man_made=satellite_dish
>
> But neither is very well documented, I recall.
>
> I’d be happy to have a better way to tag these dishes.
> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 9:52 PM Paul Allen  > wrote:
>
> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 1:48 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
>
> I was looking at the wiki for antennas
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna
>
>
> I made some additions to the definition and added some photos etc.
>
> It is still rather sparse. I'd like to be able to further define 
> what the antenna is.
>
> I have some pictures of various antennas in my area.  Well, they're 
> pictures of masts but the
> antennas are sometimes discernible.  Any idea for a good place to 
> dump them so they can
> contribute to antenna/mast examples that people can add to wiki pages 
> as appropriate?
>
> Worst case, you want me to mail them to you and you can decide what 
> to do with them?
>
>
> -- 
> Paul
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[François Lacombe]

Hi all
It would be great to use telecom=* instead of man_made or communications

Antennas is a difgicult topic to address in osm since there can be many of
them at the same time. They should be distinguished from mast and supports
since antennas are only devices

All the best

François

Le sam. 24 nov. 2018 à 14:59, Joseph Eisenberg 
a écrit :

> I’d been thinking about this lately while working on towers and radio
> telescopes.
>
> Towers can be tagged with tower:construction =dish and this is rendered as
> “satellite” dish sending or receiving waves, in the Openstreetmap-Carto
> style.
>
> Radio telescopes are now rendered as well.
>
> But there are some satellite uplink dishes mistagged as radio telescopes.
>
> Other tags in use are man_made=communications_dish and
> man_made=satellite_dish
>
> But neither is very well documented, I recall.
>
> I’d be happy to have a better way to tag these dishes.
> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 9:52 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 1:48 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I was looking at the wiki for antennas
>>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna
>>>
>>>
>>> I made some additions to the definition and added some photos etc.
>>>
>>> It is still rather sparse. I'd like to be able to further define what
>>> the antenna is.
>>>
>> I have some pictures of various antennas in my area.  Well, they're
>> pictures of masts but the
>> antennas are sometimes discernible.  Any idea for a good place to dump
>> them so they can
>> contribute to antenna/mast examples that people can add to wiki pages as
>> appropriate?
>>
>> Worst case, you want me to mail them to you and you can decide what to do
>> with them?
>>
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I’d been thinking about this lately while working on towers and radio
telescopes.

Towers can be tagged with tower:construction =dish and this is rendered as
“satellite” dish sending or receiving waves, in the Openstreetmap-Carto
style.

Radio telescopes are now rendered as well.

But there are some satellite uplink dishes mistagged as radio telescopes.

Other tags in use are man_made=communications_dish and
man_made=satellite_dish

But neither is very well documented, I recall.

I’d be happy to have a better way to tag these dishes.
On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 9:52 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 1:48 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I was looking at the wiki for antennas
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna
>>
>>
>> I made some additions to the definition and added some photos etc.
>>
>> It is still rather sparse. I'd like to be able to further define what the
>> antenna is.
>>
> I have some pictures of various antennas in my area.  Well, they're
> pictures of masts but the
> antennas are sometimes discernible.  Any idea for a good place to dump
> them so they can
> contribute to antenna/mast examples that people can add to wiki pages as
> appropriate?
>
> Worst case, you want me to mail them to you and you can decide what to do
> with them?
>
>
> --
> Paul
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, Nov 24, 2018 at 1:48 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I was looking at the wiki for antennas
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna
>
>
> I made some additions to the definition and added some photos etc.
>
> It is still rather sparse. I'd like to be able to further define what the
> antenna is.
>
I have some pictures of various antennas in my area.  Well, they're
pictures of masts but the
antennas are sometimes discernible.  Any idea for a good place to dump them
so they can
contribute to antenna/mast examples that people can add to wiki pages as
appropriate?

Worst case, you want me to mail them to you and you can decide what to do
with them?

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[Warin]

On 24/11/18 21:29, Sergio Manzi wrote:


Hello Warin,

I'm afraid we're opening a can of worms here, but you're right: 
something needs to be fixed, and here below I'm trying to contribute 
with some considerations...




Thanks... rather than 'fixed', guided might be a better term. 'Type' 
just provides for too much freedom in the responses.




The Wiki [1 
] gives a 
very good definition of what an antenna is: an "/interface between 
radio waves and electrical signals in a transmission line/".




Well it is a better attempt. But needs improvement (I can say that as I 
wrote it :) ) "/interface between radio waves *in free space *and 
electrical signals in a transmission line/".
Consider a wave guide - the field there could be described by some as a 
radio wave .. but not in free space. And of course a wave guide is a 
transmission line.



That interface can work in either or both directions:

  * *receiving *(/RX, radio waves to electrical signal/), like the TV
antenna on the roof of an house or a radio-telescope.
  * *transmitting *(/TX, electrical signal to radio waves/), like the
broadcasting antenna of a commercial TV or the transmitting
antenna of a VOR radio direction navigation system.
  * *receiving/transmitting* (RX/TX, /both directions/), like those on
the tower of a mobile telephone cell or a radar.

Not all antennas are *communication antennas*: communication antennas 
are for conveying information ("meaning") from one party to another 
(/and I would add  "in a bidirectional way" or we should call it a 
"*broadcasting antenna*", but I'm not totally sure about this latter 
specification/). Some other kind of non-communication antenna: the 
radio-telescope, the VOR, the radar.


Yep. Though communications can be one way e.g. a TV signal conveys 
information, sometimes useful like a weather forecast. But I am 
reluctant to put 'communication' down as a value - covers too many things.


For the above I think an *antenna:usage=** tag could be a correct tag, 
with values like: communication, broadcasting, radio-telescope, 
navigation, radar, measurement, ham_radio (/there is not such a thing 
as an "ham radio" antenna type, per se: hams make uses of a lot of 
different antenna types/).


As for the "type" of antennas, *there are **a lot*: monopole, dipole, 
mast radiator, whip, Yagi, Log-periodic, random wire, loop, quad, 
rhombic, helical, beverage, ground plane, collinear, traveling wave, 
curtain, horn, dish, etc., etc.


Biconical, biconilog, patch  ... heaps of them. Some even describe the 
matching .. a 'Roberts Dipole' for example. A 'quad' to me just says 4 
.. 4 of what? Helicals, bow ties, dipoles .. A 'phased array' also does 
not say what the driving antennas are nor the number of them.


Furthermore there are some inaccuracies in the above (/a "dish" 
antenna is actually //a system//built from two components: a 
reflector, the dish, and the true antenna located in the focus of the 
dish reflector/) and possible complications (/you can have an array of 
antennas, like the array of four helical antennas pictured in the wiki 
page/). 


A 'ground plane' is also a system of at least 2 components. And the feed 
to the dish can be in several different locations...


antenna:reflector=dish/ground_plane/* ?

I'm really unsure if it is worth to specify antenna types. Beside, I 
think most mappers will be unable to correctly identify antenna types.


Unfortunately some mappers want to put these things down .. so provision 
for that has to be made to avoid confusion.


Someone has also included polarisation in the types value .. so that 
needs to be addressed too, 
antenna:polarisation=vertical/horizontal/circular/circular_clockwise/circular_anticlockwise 
should do.


A radom_*e*_ *is not an antenna*, but the weatherproof enclosure that 
protect an antenna.


Sigh. Yep. But that is what mappers see and want to put down. Don't know 
what to do with it yet. Similar to the dish problem, they see the dish 
and want to put that down without going into the feed detail or the true 
antenna. Some of the dishes are covered too so it will not be easy to 
have mappers detail more than 'dish'.


antenna:enclosure=radome/* ?
Some microwave repeater antennas get covers - usually for snow conditions.


In the wiki there is a lot of talking (/and some proposed tags/) about 
"transponders", but the term is used in an absolutely inaccurate and 
wrong meaning: a transponder is "/is a device that, upon receiving a 
signal, emits /_/a different signal in response/_" [2 
]. What in the wiki is 
called a transponder can probably be more accurately described as a 
"repeater" [3 ]. Unhappily 
man_made=communications_transponder is already in use for absolutely 
wrong features, as in [4 
] 

Re: [Tagging] antenna type

[Sergio Manzi]

Hello Warin,

I'm afraid we're opening a can of worms here, but you're right: something needs 
to be fixed, and here below I'm trying to contribute with some considerations...


The Wiki [1 ] gives 
a very good definition of what an antenna is: an "/interface between radio 
waves and electrical signals in a transmission line/".

That interface can work in either or both directions:

  * *receiving *(/RX, radio waves to electrical signal/), like the TV antenna 
on the roof of an house or a radio-telescope.
  * *transmitting *(/TX, electrical signal to radio waves/), like the 
broadcasting antenna of a commercial TV or the transmitting antenna of a VOR 
radio direction navigation system.
  * *receiving/transmitting* (RX/TX, /both directions/), like those on the 
tower of a mobile telephone cell or a radar.

Not all antennas are *communication antennas*: communication antennas are for 
conveying information ("meaning") from one party to another (/and I would add  
"in a bidirectional way" or we should call it a "*broadcasting antenna*", but 
I'm not totally sure about this latter specification/). Some other kind of 
non-communication antenna: the radio-telescope, the VOR, the radar.

For the above I think an *antenna:usage=** tag could be a correct tag, with 
values like: communication, broadcasting, radio-telescope, navigation, radar, 
measurement, ham_radio (/there is not such a thing as an "ham radio" antenna 
type, per se: hams make uses of a lot of different antenna types/).

As for the "type" of antennas, *there are **a lot*: monopole, dipole, mast 
radiator, whip, Yagi, Log-periodic, random wire, loop, quad, rhombic, helical, 
beverage, ground plane, collinear, traveling wave, curtain, horn, dish, etc., 
etc.

Furthermore there are some inaccuracies in the above (/a "dish" antenna is 
actually //a system//built from two components: a reflector, the dish, and the 
true antenna located in the focus of the dish reflector/) and possible 
complications (/you can have an array of antennas, like the array of four 
helical antennas pictured in the wiki page/).

I'm really unsure if it is worth to specify antenna types. Beside, I think most 
mappers will be unable to correctly identify antenna types.

A radom_*e*_ *is not an antenna*, but the weatherproof enclosure that protect 
an antenna.

In the wiki there is a lot of talking (/and some proposed tags/) about 
"transponders", but the term is used in an absolutely inaccurate and wrong 
meaning: a transponder is "/is a device that, upon receiving a signal, emits 
/_/a different signal in response/_" [2 
]. What in the wiki is called a 
transponder can probably be more accurately described as a "repeater" [3 
]. Unhappily 
man_made=communications_transponder is already in use for absolutely wrong 
features, as in [4 
] where 
it it is used to tag a cell tower.


Enough, for now, but of course I'm open to the discussion and I'm ready to 
contribute for what I can (/I'm not an expert in the field but/ /I am a former 
radio amateur and a former telephone company's CTO/).

Cheers!

Sergio


[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeater
[4] https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2199511457#map=19/44.98542/9.01678


On 2018-11-24 02:47, Warin wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I was looking at the wiki for antennas
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna
>
>
> I made some additions to the definition and added some photos etc.
>
> It is still rather sparse. I'd like to be able to further define what the 
> antenna is.
>
>
> Unfortunately on the German wiki there is the use of antenna:type .. with a 
> confusing set of values.
>
> (eg communication, special, parabolic_satellit, parabolic_satellit_uplink, 
> radar)
>
>
> These appear to be the use of the antenna.
>
> Perhaps this could be antenna:use=radio/TV/radar/wifi/cell_phone
>
> I don't think 'communication' is a good tag - any antenna performs the 
> function of communication.
>
> Similar for satellite (note last 'e' for British English), that might be all 
> you can tell from the configuration and direction of the antenna but does not 
> define its use.
>
>
> Then the 'type' of antenna .. better described as antenna:configuration ?
>
> Values could be monopole, dipole, yagi, dish ... yes dish will have sub tags 
> for the feed system etc.
>
>
> Broad thoughts?
>
> Not after detail at this stage but antenna:type to others such as;
>
> antenna:use?
>
> antenna:configuration?
>
> antenna:mode=tx/rx/2way for the direction of communication?
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] antenna type

[Warin]

Hi,

I was looking at the wiki for antennas

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dantenna


I made some additions to the definition and added some photos etc.

It is still rather sparse. I'd like to be able to further define what 
the antenna is.



Unfortunately on the German wiki there is the use of antenna:type .. 
with a confusing set of values.


(eg communication, special, parabolic_satellit, 
parabolic_satellit_uplink, radar)



These appear to be the use of the antenna.

Perhaps this could be antenna:use=radio/TV/radar/wifi/cell_phone

I don't think 'communication' is a good tag - any antenna performs the 
function of communication.


Similar for satellite (note last 'e' for British English), that might be 
all you can tell from the configuration and direction of the antenna but 
does not define its use.



Then the 'type' of antenna .. better described as antenna:configuration ?

Values could be monopole, dipole, yagi, dish ... yes dish will have sub 
tags for the feed system etc.



Broad thoughts?

Not after detail at this stage but antenna:type to others such as;

antenna:use?

antenna:configuration?

antenna:mode=tx/rx/2way for the direction of communication?




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging