Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I've added amenity=bear_box (for the feature) and bear_box=yes (as a
property to add to campsites, caravan sites, camp pitches, etc) to the
proposal at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Campsite_properties
for now. i

If it turns out to be too controversial I can remove it for a separate
proposal, but I think this is a clear and simple way to tag these
features, since the ideas of tagging similar features that might not
be bear-proof are still hypothetical, and it's fine to use different
tags for different yet similar things.

On 8/24/19, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 1:12 PM Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Aug 2019 at 18:43, Dave Swarthout 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Still, if we want to allow for easy expansion of the tagging scheme then
>>> using waste_basket=bear-proof, for example, would help such future
>>> expansion.
>>>
>>
>> How about bear_proof=yes which could be applied to food storage
>> containers
>> and waste
>> containers?  Ummm, we'd probably also need vermin_proof=yes for mice/rat
>> proof
>> containers.
>>
>
> This is why I offered the "hardened=yes" suggestion above.
>

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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 1:12 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Aug 2019 at 18:43, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Still, if we want to allow for easy expansion of the tagging scheme then
>> using waste_basket=bear-proof, for example, would help such future
>> expansion.
>>
>
> How about bear_proof=yes which could be applied to food storage containers
> and waste
> containers?  Ummm, we'd probably also need vermin_proof=yes for mice/rat
> proof
> containers.
>

This is why I offered the "hardened=yes" suggestion above.
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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I agree that bear_box is clearer. Most food storage is not bear-proof.

If there are other food storage options that are simply racoon-proof
or squirrel-proof, they can be tagged differently, but I'm not aware
of any of these.

On 8/22/19, JS  wrote:
>
>
> Am 22. August 2019 03:41:08 MESZ schrieb Rob Savoye :
>>On 8/21/19 7:27 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> For someone who is not familiar with the term 'bear box' it may
>>> sound like bears are stored in there.
> That would seem like a rather odd idea. Why would a bear be stored in a box,
> and even more so at a camping site?
>
>>> "Food storage box" might be better?
>>
>>  Actually something like that is probably a better term. I think 'bear
>>box' only because that's the term I'm familiar with.
>
> I find "bear box" a pretty instructive term. More generic terms don't seem
> to catch the idea of protecting food from animals quite as well. The boxes
> were developed against bears and thus got their named. Also, from my Jack
> London influenced imagination, I immediately understood what we're talking
> about here. Thus, I'd go for "bear box=yes/no", even in areas where there
> are no bears.
>
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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[JS]

Am 22. August 2019 03:41:08 MESZ schrieb Rob Savoye :
>On 8/21/19 7:27 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
>> For someone who is not familiar with the term 'bear box' it may
>> sound like bears are stored in there.
That would seem like a rather odd idea. Why would a bear be stored in a box, 
and even more so at a camping site?

>> "Food storage box" might be better?
>
>  Actually something like that is probably a better term. I think 'bear
>box' only because that's the term I'm familiar with.

I find "bear box" a pretty instructive term. More generic terms don't seem to 
catch the idea of protecting food from animals quite as well. The boxes were 
developed against bears and thus got their named. Also, from my Jack London 
influenced imagination, I immediately understood what we're talking about here. 
Thus, I'd go for "bear box=yes/no", even in areas where there are no bears.

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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Rob Savoye]

On 8/21/19 7:27 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:

> For someone who is not familiar with the term 'bear box' it may
> sound like bears are stored in there.
> "Food storage box" might be better?

  Actually something like that is probably a better term. I think 'bear
box' only because that's the term I'm familiar with. 'Big Metal Box'
would be accurate too, but confusing.

  There's also bear proof trash cans, but I don't think that needs a tag.

- rob -

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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Rob Savoye]

On 8/21/19 5:17 PM, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> I agree with Martin. It's not good practice to use semicolons in the
> value of the main feature tag, like amenity=bbq;bear_box, because this
> is hard for database users to interpret with a simple algorithm.

  Actually I've found the opposite. Importing into Postgresql doesn't
support multiple tags of the same name. At least not when importing
using ogr. I do produce maps from Postgresql, and have no problem with
semi-colons. Course I'm using my own software for SQL queries. I'd be
curious what OsmAnd does when displaying 'tourism' POIs.

> At the proposal
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Campsite_properties)
> there are a list of property tags which are already approved or "de
> facto" in common use on camp_site (and camp_pitch) features, like
> this:

  I saw that, but they're proposed, so I've been trying to stick to
what's approved. I already do use many of the existing properties.

> Note that there are also feature tags for almost all of these, like:
> amenity=drinking_water
> amenity=recycling
> amenity=sanitary_dump_station
> amenity=toilets

  Using properties works fine for my purpose, and if it's ok to create a
new property 'bear_box=(yes,no)', I can do it that way. I'm not in a
hurry, so can also wait for the proposal to hopefully get approved.

> Hence: amenity=bear_box on it's own node, right at the location of the
> box. Or if you don't have that info or just want to say that "there is
> a bear box at this campground", you can add bear_box=yes/no to the
> tourism=camp_site

  So now it seems it'd be "bbq=yes', 'picnic_table=yes', 'bear_box'yes'.

- rob -

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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 7:53 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 22/08/19 10:25, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 7:23 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is there a requirement to tag these 'animal resistant boxes'? Would a
>> more universal tag be better?
>>
>
> I've generally heard these referred to as "bear boxes" regardless of the
> species they're intended to guard against.  Granted, my exposure to such
> facilities is limited and I am bear-biased.
>
>
> American English? Fortunately the UK does not seem to suffer from this
> issue, so there is no British English example we can use.
>

Well, of course, they hunted their bears to extinction and turned 'em into
hats.  I think Canadian trappers are now the current source.


> For someone who is not familiar with the term 'bear box' it may sound like
> bears are stored in there.
> "Food storage box" might be better?
>

Fair point.  Food storage box would just mean any kind of camp staple box
at a semipermanent encampment, though, and most staple boxes are just
basically resistance against weather and vermin, typically raised off the
ground about waist high on the low side with a lid that flips out as a food
preparation surface, but wouldn't survive initial contact with a bear
interested in its contents.  Common at locations where backpackers
typically travel in groups of around half a dozen and stay encamped for
several days at a shot in order to facilitate a single common kitchen.

Quick Google search suggests "staple box" is not particularly known outside
of Parks Canada, Scouts Canada and Scouts BSA circles, though, with kitchen
box being slightly more common in North America and "chuck box uk" actually
being the first autocomplete when you start typing "chuck box" in Google.
Chuck box seems to also be the most unambiguous and british term available.

So, for any such box, perhaps amenity=chuck_box and if it's purpose built
against some kind of specific threat to its contents, then hardened=yes?

I'm not married to the terminology, but I am ready to buy in.

> I am surprised raccoons are not a problem in northern America.
>>
>
> They are, but unlike bears (especially black bears), raccoons haven't
> figured out how to open car doors from the outside yet.  Probably owing to
> their rather short stature being unable to reach the door handle.
>
>
> If they team together they can form a pyramid for the reach, only need to
> figure out the handle then.
> Can they do zippers? Raiding tents and backpacks then becomes possible.
>

Can confirm that raccoons don't bother with zippers, they just go through.
Learned the hard way at Cape Foulweather State Park to tree packs with food
when my pack got raided the first campout I had in the Scouts.  Only had to
ruin my grandfather's US Army pack he brought back from World War II, which
had additionally survived an extended backpacking trip across Afghanistan
my mother took when it was under Soviet control in the process (I learned
how to restore it after that, and ended up getting a more modern pack
better suited for backpacking).
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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Warin]

On 22/08/19 10:25, Paul Johnson wrote:
On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 7:23 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


Is there a requirement to tag these 'animal resistant boxes'?
Would a more universal tag be better?


I've generally heard these referred to as "bear boxes" regardless of 
the species they're intended to guard against.  Granted, my exposure 
to such facilities is limited and I am bear-biased.


American English? Fortunately the UK does not seem to suffer from this 
issue, so there is no British English example we can use.


For someone who is not familiar with the term 'bear box' it may sound 
like bears are stored in there.

"Food storage box" might be better?



I am surprised raccoons are not a problem in northern America.


They are, but unlike bears (especially black bears), raccoons haven't 
figured out how to open car doors from the outside yet.  Probably 
owing to their rather short stature being unable to reach the door 
handle.


If they team together they can form a pyramid for the reach, only need 
to figure out the handle then.

Can they do zippers? Raiding tents and backpacks then becomes possible.




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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 7:23 PM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is there a requirement to tag these 'animal resistant boxes'? Would a more
> universal tag be better?
>

I've generally heard these referred to as "bear boxes" regardless of the
species they're intended to guard against.  Granted, my exposure to such
facilities is limited and I am bear-biased.


> I am surprised raccoons are not a problem in northern America.
>

They are, but unlike bears (especially black bears), raccoons haven't
figured out how to open car doors from the outside yet.  Probably owing to
their rather short stature being unable to reach the door handle.
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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Warin]

On 22/08/19 07:03, Tom Pfeifer wrote:

On 21.08.2019 19:44, Rob Savoye wrote:

   Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy your
car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this type of
data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would 'amenity='bear_box' ?
(looking at amenity=bbq as an example)


The question remains if tagging the boxes would give bears an 
advantage as they could exploit the knowledge and focus on sites 
without such boxes?


Bears are smater than the average human - they don't need maps.


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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Warin]

On 22/08/19 08:16, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 08:02, Rob Savoye > wrote:



> We should probably add both of these to the proposed list of
> campsite property tags at

  That's be a good idea, as bear boxes are becoming more and more
common
in western US campgrounds.


We don't have that problem!,


'We' have problems with possums, mice and rats (native, not the other 
kind yet).
They have been known to eat through expensive tents and backpacks even 
where the 'food' inside is simply a unwashed stain.


Boxes have been provided in a few locations.
At other locations hanging food (and rubbish) is required unless you 
want it eaten and scattered around.


Dingoes are also a problem, but they usually just steel, they don't open 
tents or eat into them.
At a few places currawong have learnt how to undo zippers and access 
food inside backpacks.


https://tasmaniangeographic.com/food-raiders-of-the-overland-track/

Is there a requirement to tag these 'animal resistant boxes'? Would a 
more universal tag be better?


I am surprised raccoons are not a problem in northern America.
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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 5:20 PM Rob Savoye  wrote:

> On 8/21/19 4:16 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> > We don't have that problem!, but are the bear boxes at each individual
> > site / pitch, or is there one / "x" for the entire campground?
>
>   Bear boxes are in every campsite, and hold about a week's worth of
> food. They're big enough you can put in a decent size cooler plus
> supplies A campground sized one would be huge!


They're not always every campsite, they're sometimes entire campgrounds or
sections of a campground, to ensure the food is far enough away from all
campers that any bears willing to take on the challenge are not going to be
an immediate threat to humans and vice versa.  Yellowstone National Park
and Banff National Park come to mind as having campgrounds with banks of
bear boxes.
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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 4:04 PM Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

> On 21.08.2019 19:44, Rob Savoye wrote:
> >Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
> > boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
> > year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy your
> > car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this type of
> > data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would 'amenity='bear_box' ?
> > (looking at amenity=bbq as an example)
>
> The question remains if tagging the boxes would give bears an advantage as
> they could exploit the
> knowledge and focus on sites without such boxes?
>

Probably not.  I'm not a bear but I play one now and then!
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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Evan Derickson]

Bear boxes can be shared among multiple campsites, especially in
backcountry campgrounds. We should also consider that there are other forms
of food protection, such as bear wires and bear poles, that are used in
some campsites. What about tagging with something like
'wildlife_food_protection=yes/no/bear_box/bear_wire/bear_pole'?

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 3:21 PM Rob Savoye  wrote:

> On 8/21/19 4:16 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> > We don't have that problem!, but are the bear boxes at each individual
> > site / pitch, or is there one / "x" for the entire campground?
>
>   Bear boxes are in every campsite, and hold about a week's worth of
> food. They're big enough you can put in a decent size cooler plus
> supplies A campground sized one would be huge!
>
> - rob -
>
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-- 
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derickso...@gmail.com
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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I agree with Martin. It's not good practice to use semicolons in the
value of the main feature tag, like amenity=bbq;bear_box, because this
is hard for database users to interpret with a simple algorithm.

At the proposal
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Campsite_properties)
there are a list of property tags which are already approved or "de
facto" in common use on camp_site (and camp_pitch) features, like
this:

drinking_water=yes/no availability of drinking water at the feature
internet_access=yes/no/wlan - availability of internet access, use
wlan for WiFi.
recycling=yes/no Availability of containers for recycling.
sanitary_dump_station=yes/no/customers - availability of a santitary
dump station for emptying caravan toilet holding tanks
toilets=yes/no Availability of toilets at the site

Note that there are also feature tags for almost all of these, like:
amenity=drinking_water
amenity=recycling
amenity=sanitary_dump_station
amenity=toilets
etc.

So it's very common to use  separate tag for a feature and for a
property of a feature. This helps with keeping to "One Feature, One
OSM Element".

Hence: amenity=bear_box on it's own node, right at the location of the
box. Or if you don't have that info or just want to say that "there is
a bear box at this campground", you can add bear_box=yes/no to the
tourism=camp_site

- Joseph


On 8/22/19, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 22. Aug 2019, at 00:01, Rob Savoye  wrote:
>>
>>  Yeah, I'd add this to a 'tourism=camp_pitch' node. Where I was
>> yesterday works out to something like 'amenity=bbq;bear_box;parking'
>> plus 'leisure=firepit'.
>
>
> a more common mapping method would be individual objects for each feature (a
> node for each feature, inside a tourism=camp_site polygon) or properties
> (bbq=yes bear_box=yes etc.) on a “main” feature (camp site object). We
> usually don’t do amenity =foo;bar
>
> Cheers Martin

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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22. Aug 2019, at 00:01, Rob Savoye  wrote:
> 
>  Yeah, I'd add this to a 'tourism=camp_pitch' node. Where I was
> yesterday works out to something like 'amenity=bbq;bear_box;parking'
> plus 'leisure=firepit'.


a more common mapping method would be individual objects for each feature (a 
node for each feature, inside a tourism=camp_site polygon) or properties 
(bbq=yes bear_box=yes etc.) on a “main” feature (camp site object). We usually 
don’t do amenity =foo;bar

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Rob Savoye]

On 8/21/19 4:16 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

> We don't have that problem!, but are the bear boxes at each individual
> site / pitch, or is there one / "x" for the entire campground?

  Bear boxes are in every campsite, and hold about a week's worth of
food. They're big enough you can put in a decent size cooler plus
supplies A campground sized one would be huge!

- rob -

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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 at 08:02, Rob Savoye  wrote:

>
> > We should probably add both of these to the proposed list of
> > campsite property tags at
>
>   That's be a good idea, as bear boxes are becoming more and more common
> in western US campgrounds.
>

We don't have that problem!, but are the bear boxes at each individual site
/ pitch, or is there one / "x" for the entire campground?

That would have to change the way they're mapped.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Rob Savoye]

On 8/21/19 3:54 PM, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> This suggests that you could also use bear_box=yes/no with a 
> tourism=camp_site or tourism=camp_pitch feature to specify whether
> or not their is a bear box somewhere at the location.

  Yeah, I'd add this to a 'tourism=camp_pitch' node. Where I was
yesterday works out to something like 'amenity=bbq;bear_box;parking'
plus 'leisure=firepit'.

> We should probably add both of these to the proposed list of
> campsite property tags at

  That's be a good idea, as bear boxes are becoming more and more common
in western US campgrounds.

- rob -


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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Good idea! I agree that amenity=bear_box would be a good way to map
this feature, probably on a node.

This suggests that you could also use bear_box=yes/no with a
tourism=camp_site or tourism=camp_pitch feature to specify whether or
not their is a bear box somewhere at the location.

We should probably add both of these to the proposed list of campsite
property tags at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Campsite_properties

Joseph

On 8/22/19, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 21/08/2019 19:03, Mark Wagner wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:44:41 -0600
>> Rob Savoye  wrote:
>>
>>>Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
>>> boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
>>> year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy
>>> your car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this
>>> type of data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would
>>> 'amenity='bear_box' ? (looking at amenity=bbq as an example)
>> That's how I've mapped the five I've added to the map.
>
> A quick search of taginfo suggests that as the best option - try
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=bear_box and variations.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 at 22:05, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

>
> The question remains if tagging the boxes would give bears an advantage as
> they could exploit the
> knowledge and focus on sites without such boxes?
>

+1

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 21.08.2019 19:44, Rob Savoye wrote:

   Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy your
car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this type of
data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would 'amenity='bear_box' ?
(looking at amenity=bbq as an example)


The question remains if tagging the boxes would give bears an advantage as they could exploit the 
knowledge and focus on sites without such boxes?


tom

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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Andy Townsend]

On 21/08/2019 19:03, Mark Wagner wrote:

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:44:41 -0600
Rob Savoye  wrote:


   Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy
your car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this
type of data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would
'amenity='bear_box' ? (looking at amenity=bbq as an example)

That's how I've mapped the five I've added to the map.


A quick search of taginfo suggests that as the best option - try 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=bear_box and variations.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Mark Wagner]

On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:44:41 -0600
Rob Savoye  wrote:

>   Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
> boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
> year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy
> your car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this
> type of data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would
> 'amenity='bear_box' ? (looking at amenity=bbq as an example)

That's how I've mapped the five I've added to the map.

-- 
Mark

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[Tagging] bear box in campground ?

[Rob Savoye]

  Many western state campgrounds have metal bear proof food storage
boxes in each campsite, but not all of them. At certain times of the
year this can be important. :-) Around here the bears will destroy your
car if there is food left inside. I see zero instances of this type of
data, at least not in Colorado. My guess would 'amenity='bear_box' ?
(looking at amenity=bbq as an example)

- rob -

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