Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
Hi Steve, Am Donnerstag, 17. Januar 2013, 13:25:44 schrieb Steve Doerr: Would this fit the bill: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/temporary ? Probably this would fit the bill even better: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours with http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Time_domains Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
On 1/20/13 5:10 AM, Eckhart Wörner wrote: Hi Steve, Am Donnerstag, 17. Januar 2013, 13:25:44 schrieb Steve Doerr: Would this fit the bill: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/temporary ? Probably this would fit the bill even better: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:opening_hours with http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Time_domains i agree, the date_on, date_off, etc stuff has been deprecated elsewhere (see Access time and other conditional restrictions' on this page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access ) we simply need to extend the existing date format to include years and adapt a version of conditionals from the access tag. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
Hi Greg, Am Freitag, 18. Januar 2013, 08:11:54 schrieb Greg Troxel: Removing things is not such a good idea when you have people downloading offline data and use data that is 6 months to a year of of date, I don't think we should optimize the database for bugs in people's processing pipelines. I have not encountered good reasons to be more than a month or so out of date (on Garmin with OSM data). well, maybe you should start looking beyond your own backyard: • downloading 1 GB of navigation data per month is not a viable option for the majority of people in the world • providing up-to-date map material can be prohibitively expensive as soon as you leave the toy status Eckhart ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
Maybe change from _building=yes_ to _building=construction_ and then use _construction=renovation_ ? --ceyockey -Original Message- From: Janko Mihelić Sent: Jan 18, 2013 2:54 PM To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools Subject: Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice Maybe disused:xxx=yyy could be used for the McDonalds closed for years, and temporary:xxx=yyy could be used for a restaurant closed for a week. The difference is that with temporary:xxx=yyy you also have the xxx=zzz which is the usual longterm value. I think this could be a good system. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
On Jan 19, 2013 6:53 AM, Eckhart Wörner ewoer...@kde.org wrote: well, maybe you should start looking beyond your own backyard: • downloading 1 GB of navigation data per month is not a viable option for the majority of people in the world • providing up-to-date map material can be prohibitively expensive as soon as you leave the toy status We have an xapi that lets you selectively pull data for just what you're interested in. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 11:16 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: We have an xapi that lets you selectively pull data for just what you're interested in. This is not a discussion for tagging, sorry for brining it up. Interesting; about disused:*, I use this for big things that seems to be one thing but really are disused, e.g: 1. airfield strips 2. big stores with logos up but not really in service. I guess someday someone will render what used to be there, but that's another really hard subject. -- /emj ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
Am 17.01.2013 16:42, schrieb Janko Mihelić: Well then you decide what its status is. Is it an abandoned building (building=yes), or is it a temporarily closed McDonalds (building=yes, amenity=restaurant, temporary:opening_hours=off). If someone says Meet me at the abandoned McDonalds, you could find that with the temporary tag :) That's more information than just building=yes. so you will find a restaurant with closed doors ... while searching for an opened one. If it is an _abandoned_ restaurant it is no restaurant anymore. In this case I would remove the amenity tag and leave the name only - in fact it _is_ just a building with a big name sign then (case here with a Burger King since around 2 years). Georg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 1:17 AM, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: There is a fast food franchise site which is closed for renovation in my vicinity. Two questions: * Would you support or recommend tagging a transient state like 'closed for renovation'? * If one were to indicate temporary closure, how would one do this? In the case of renovation, would one use a construction-related tag? For short periods I don't bother and for long periods I remove them. I've used end_date=2013 and then removed things when I see that they are really gone. Removing things is not such a good idea when you have people downloading offline data and use data that is 6 months to a year of of date, and as Martin metions it also requires someone adding it again. Time related stuff is hard, this is similar to the question about how to manage and warn routing applications when you know the road will be shutoff at 6pm on 2015-01-27. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com writes: Removing things is not such a good idea when you have people downloading offline data and use data that is 6 months to a year of of date, I don't think we should optimize the database for bugs in people's processing pipelines. I have not encountered good reasons to be more than a month or so out of date (on Garmin with OSM data). Also, I think showing a non-operating restaurant on a map is at least 20x as bad as not showing an open one. The other thing missing from this discussion is how all these temporary tags get used. I realize in osm creating tags and using them have nothing to do with each other, but in the extreme that's a bug. We're building a model of the world, and we need to pay attention to how the data is consumed. In particular, lower-fidelity consumers should not be mislead and as an extreme example: amenity=restaurant closed_status=really-long-time-probably-not-reopening is not likely to lead to the right results on a GPSr POI search. pgpxrAxOJ95tQ.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
2013/1/18 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com Also, I think showing a non-operating restaurant on a map is at least 20x as bad as not showing an open one. That's for a mapper to decide. Local mappers know best if a restaurant is likely to open soon or stay like that forever. amenity=restaurant closed_status=really-long-time-probably-not-reopening is not likely to lead to the right results on a GPSr POI search. I agree, but there is no quick solution to this. We have to start using a tag and hope the community will take it. Does the temporary [1] solution sound good to you? [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/temporary Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
2013/1/18 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com it is similar to what others do with disused:amenity=restaurant (prefixes to prevent applications to get it wrong --- they simply won't get it at all). (IIRR, taginfo search is down at the moment). Maybe disused:xxx=yyy could be used for the McDonalds closed for years, and temporary:xxx=yyy could be used for a restaurant closed for a week. The difference is that with temporary:xxx=yyy you also have the xxx=zzz which is the usual longterm value. I think this could be a good system. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
I think we should invent a tag for temporary out of work things. If you download an offline map and go abroad, the application could estimate that a few months have passed, and that a caffe could be open now, or that a road could be open. When you put a highway=construction on the road, it is closed for good if you don't have internet. I reccomend something like closed=yes and if you have an idea about the time when it could open, closed:until=-MM-DD. You could add a reason for closing, closed:reason=renovation or closed:reason=construction. This way we could even put real-time data like a shop closed for one day. When a closed:until comes to an end, a bot could delete them automatically. Janko Mihelić ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
On 1/17/13 6:06 AM, Janko Mihelić wrote: I reccomend something like closed=yes and if you have an idea about the time when it could open, closed:until=-MM-DD. You could add a reason for closing, closed:reason=renovation or closed:reason=construction. i haven't been following this thread up until now, but some quick suggestions: 1) specify use of opening hours date/time syntax 2) look at access conditionals 3) support the expansion of opening hours syntax to include years that i just suggested on another thread on this list. my rationale for this is the need to be able to indicate dates/times of planned road closures for routing purposes, which is almost the same requirement. we might as well try to conform the tagging styles. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
Would this fit the bill: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/temporary ? Steve On 15/01/2013 00:17, dies38...@mypacks.net wrote: There is a fast food franchise site which is closed for renovation in my vicinity. Two questions: * Would you support or recommend tagging a transient state like 'closed for renovation'? * If one were to indicate temporary closure, how would one do this? In the case of renovation, would one use a construction-related tag? Thanks for your input ... or referral to conversations/info which you'd consider definitive. --ceyockey ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
closed_until is overengineered* and does not match my local reality. When a restaurant closes, it often posts closed for renovations. Sometimes they open again, sometimes they don't. So I think if it's a 2-week advertised window, ignore it or perhaps use the tag. But if there's no firm, less-than-30-days reopen time posted, just remove it, and check back. * meaning there are unmapped POIs, so this is something I am disinclined to spend time on pgp6CXoRTUeQs.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
2013/1/17 Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com Would this fit the bill: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/temporary ? Yes, temporary:access=no is the same as my closed=yes tag. And the ability to put more tags behind temporary: is quite handy. Closed restaurants could be tagged as temporary:opening_hours=off. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: I think we should invent a tag for temporary out of work things. If you download an offline map and go abroad, the application could estimate that a few months have passed, and that a caffe could be open now, or that a road could be open. When you put a highway=construction on the road, it is closed for good if you don't have internet. I reccomend something like closed=yes and if you have an idea about the time when it could open, closed:until=-MM-DD. You could add a reason for closing, closed:reason=renovation or closed:reason=construction. This way we could even put real-time data like a shop closed for one day. When a closed:until comes to an end, a bot could delete them automatically. Janko Mihelić ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Sometimes a business ends up being closed for renovations or repairs for much longer than expected. One McDonalds restaurant here in Nashville, TN, USA closed temporarily over a year ago due to a fire. It is still closed, and still not repaired, due to a dispute between the corporation and the city (the zoning board wants all of the parking to be behind the restaurant, and McDonalds wants the parking to be on three sides of the restaurant, as it was with the old building). -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
2013/1/17 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com Sometimes a business ends up being closed for renovations or repairs for much longer than expected. One McDonalds restaurant here in Nashville, TN, USA closed temporarily over a year ago due to a fire. It is still closed, and still not repaired, due to a dispute between the corporation and the city (the zoning board wants all of the parking to be behind the restaurant, and McDonalds wants the parking to be on three sides of the restaurant, as it was with the old building). Well then you decide what its status is. Is it an abandoned building (building=yes), or is it a temporarily closed McDonalds (building=yes, amenity=restaurant, temporary:opening_hours=off). If someone says Meet me at the abandoned McDonalds, you could find that with the temporary tag :) That's more information than just building=yes. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
On 2013-01-15 01:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote : 2013/1/15 dies38...@mypacks.net: There is a fast food franchise site which is closed for renovation in my vicinity. Two questions: * Would you support or recommend tagging a transient state like 'closed for renovation'?If one were to indicate temporary closure, how would one do this? In the case of renovation, would one use a construction-related tag? I think this is done in some regions while in others it doesn't make much sense. I'd make it depend on your feeling for the OSM activity in the area: if you believe there is good chance that someone (e.g. you) will notice when they reopen and will update this in OSM you can do it, but if you see the risk that also months (or even years) after they finished the works this would probably still not be reflected by OSM I wouldn't. Cheers, Martin What about suggesting the shops to post their requests to OpenStreetBugs (1)? What and when they want. The shops have a contact=*, haven't they? And OSB has a howto for non-mappers hasn't it? A howto explaining for example that one must not say invert that one-way (seen it) but set it towards north, or towards the street end crossing with street X. Cheers, André. (1) and to post in their shops Latest shop News @ OSM.org ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
2013/1/15 A.Pirard.Papou a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com What about suggesting the shops to post their requests to OpenStreetBugs (1)? Or offer them a simple dedicated system to edit directly in OSM (something very simple, which offers just the tags that are connected to a certain topic, and which abstracts the tags from them, e.g. a reduced version of potlatch or iD, without the possibility to edit geometry). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
On 2013-01-15 14:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote : 2013/1/15 A.Pirard.Papou a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com What about suggesting the shops to post their requests to OpenStreetBugs (1)? Or offer them a simple dedicated system to edit directly in OSM (something very simple, which offers just the tags that are connected to a certain topic, and which abstracts the tags from them, e.g. a reduced version of potlatch or iD, without the possibility to edit geometry). Yes, that was also on my mind when I wrote, but I have a tendency to suggest the simplest solutions. What we're talking about now is heading towards assisted or supervised tagging, you name it. Sort of what Google wisely does to prevent anyone destroying Google Maps. Could (I'm sketching and confessing you my dream :-)) the editors, both simplified as you describe and fully featured), work in password-less mode (with warning and explanation)? Then, when OSM receives a password-less change set, after testing it for coherence, it would not apply it but send it to a pool for review? Reviewers would pick and apply them effectively. The main question is: would there be enough reviewers to do the less enjoyable job of absorbing the input timely? One could think of a quota system for everyone to do his homework to earn his membership. I have many reasons (real stories) to believe that something should be done also for improving some taggers' competence or taming the flurry of careless activity of others. One idea would be extra validation optionally done by OSM itself, much the way JOSM checks the updates better than... But here, the dream is recalled fuzzily to my brain ;-) Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] business closed for renovation - tagging best practice
On 15/01/13 14:17, A.Pirard.Papou wrote: On 2013-01-15 14:23, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote : 2013/1/15 A.Pirard.Papou a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com What about suggesting the shops to post their requests to OpenStreetBugs (1)? Or offer them a simple dedicated system to edit directly in OSM (something very simple, which offers just the tags that are connected to a certain topic, and which abstracts the tags from them, e.g. a reduced version of potlatch or iD, without the possibility to edit geometry). Yes, that was also on my mind when I wrote, but I have a tendency to suggest the simplest solutions. What we're talking about now is heading towards assisted or supervised tagging, you name it. Sort of what Google wisely does to prevent anyone destroying Google Maps. Could (I'm sketching and confessing you my dream :-)) the editors, both simplified as you describe and fully featured), work in password-less mode (with warning and explanation)? Then, when OSM receives a password-less change set, after testing it for coherence, it would not apply it but send it to a pool for review? Reviewers would pick and apply them effectively. The main question is: would there be enough reviewers to do the less enjoyable job of absorbing the input timely? One could think of a quota system for everyone to do his homework to earn his membership. I have many reasons (real stories) to believe that something should be done also for improving some taggers' competence or taming the flurry of careless activity of others. One idea would be extra validation optionally done by OSM itself, much the way JOSM checks the updates better than... But here, the dream is recalled fuzzily to my brain ;-) Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging I expressed a similar idea some months ago but with all edits. But this seems to be a much simpler version of it and easier to implement. It could be implemented in a way that it could categorise the work between designated areas, like countries or large areas within them so people could limit themselves to areas they're more familiar with. If I'd accept such a suggested change, I'd be responsible for it as the edit would be registered to my account. Not all business owners have time or the interest to learn about all the available tags in OSM, nevermind registering for an account and apply them correctly. Such a system would have the potential to partially solve this problem. - Svavar Kjarrval signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
