Re: [Tagging] default access tag for driveways

[Mateusz Konieczny]

1) data is easier to understand for other mappers2) less fragile data, less 
likely to break in future edits3) maps that I use tend to show access on roads 
and not on barriers (it is notagainst "don't tag for renderer" advice as I am 
not adding incorrect data)4) I have never considered omitting access tag5) it 
is a minimal effort to add it


30. Lipiec 2018 16:06 od tohak...@gmail.com :


> Is there a reason to add access tags to the way, when you have a barrier node 
> that should already hold these tags (lift gate, bollard)?> Seems over 
> complicated. 
>
> Anton
> 30 июля 2018 г., в 9:07, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > написал(а):
>
>
>>   27. Lipiec 2018 18:07 od >> joost.schou...@gmail.com 
>> >> :
>>
>>
>>> You would only add "private" if there is signage, and only something else 
>>> if there is a right of way or something.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I am adding access=private not only for cases with explicit signage but also 
>> when access
>>
>> is blocked (typically by a gate) or road is clearly private and used solely 
>> to access given house.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At least in Poland explicit signage is extremely rare.
>>
>>   
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
>> 
>>___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] default access tag for driveways

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 30. Jul 2018, at 16:06, Anton Klim  wrote:
> 
> Is there a reason to add access tags to the way, when you have a barrier node 
> that should already hold these tags (lift gate, bollard)?
> Seems over complicated


access tags on a node apply to this node, in some cases you might be able to 
approach the barrier from both sides, but not cross it (e.g. a locked gate). In 
many cases (typical for private driveways) it should indeed be sufficient for 
routing purposes to add access restrictions on the access barrier (gate) if it 
is the only way to go there, but from a data point of view that would be 
incomplete (e.g. the renderer would not show the way behind the gate as private 
access, a query for all private ways would not find the way, etc.).


Cheers,
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] default access tag for driveways

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 30. Jul 2018, at 12:11, joost schouppe  wrote:
> 
> So I think I can safely conclude that driveway does not imply any access 
> restrictions by itself, and that a private or destination tag is to be 
> welcomed, depending on the context. But it only really mathers if the way is 
> connected to the road network in two places. 
> I'll adapt the wiki to explicitly state that. 


+1

Please also note that “private road“
does not imply private access in all circumstances/jurisdictions, it describes 
ownership and maybe liability. 

Cheers,
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] default access tag for driveways

[joost schouppe]

Op ma 30 jul. 2018 16:07 schreef Anton Klim :

> Is there a reason to add access tags to the way, when you have a barrier
> node that should already hold these tags (lift gate, bollard)?
> Seems over complicated.
>

Then it might indeed not be necessary. These are very often not mapped or
not even there in many cases in my area.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] default access tag for driveways

[Anton Klim]

Is there a reason to add access tags to the way, when you have a barrier node 
that should already hold these tags (lift gate, bollard)?
Seems over complicated. 

Anton

> 30 июля 2018 г., в 9:07, Mateusz Konieczny  
> написал(а):
> 
> 27. Lipiec 2018 18:07 od joost.schou...@gmail.com:
> 
> You would only add "private" if there is signage, and only something else if 
> there is a right of way or something.
> 
> 
> I am adding access=private not only for cases with explicit signage but also 
> when access
> 
> is blocked (typically by a gate) or road is clearly private and used solely 
> to access given house.
> 
> 
> 
> At least in Poland explicit signage is extremely rare.
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] default access tag for driveways

[joost schouppe]

So I think I can safely conclude that driveway does not imply any access
restrictions by itself, and that a private or destination tag is to be
welcomed, depending on the context. But it only really mathers if the way
is connected to the road network in two places.
I'll adapt the wiki to explicitly state that.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] default access tag for driveways

[Mateusz Konieczny]

28. Lipiec 2018 00:20 od graemefi...@gmail.com :


> On 28 July 2018 at 03:33, Mike H <> 1jg...@gmail.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>> service=driveway isn't just for residential driveways. It is also used for 
>> other driveways. Here is an example of a driveway to a church. >> 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/100946154 
>> >>    I would agree that 
>> residential driveways should probably be implied as access=private.
>
> But people are allowed to use your driveway in some circumstances eg 
> tradesmen, couriers, family or friends coming to your house. I think that 
> access=destination would still allow them to visit, but stop routers from 
> sending other people up your garden path? :-)




access=destination excludes only transit traffic. For private driveways 
access=private is better,

as owner may grant access to whoever (s)he wishes and access is not assumed OK 
without 


permission from owner.

Note that there are also cases of driveways accessible to public, I would not 
tag them asaccess=private (typical in for example rural areas). 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] default access tag for driveways

[Mateusz Konieczny]

27. Lipiec 2018 18:07 od joost.schou...@gmail.com 
:


> You would only add "private" if there is signage, and only something else if 
> there is a right of way or something.




I am adding access=private not only for cases with explicit signage but also 
when access

is blocked (typically by a gate) or road is clearly private and used solely to 
access given house.




At least in Poland explicit signage is extremely rare.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] default access tag for driveways

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 28 July 2018 at 03:33, Mike H <1jg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> service=driveway isn't just for residential driveways. It is also used for
> other driveways. Here is an example of a driveway to a church.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/100946154   I would agree that
> residential driveways should probably be implied as access=private.
>

But people are allowed to use your driveway in some circumstances eg
tradesmen, couriers, family or friends coming to your house. I think that
access=destination would still allow them to visit, but stop routers from
sending other people up your garden path? :-)

Thanks

Graeme
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] default access tag for driveways

[Mike H]

service=driveway isn't just for residential driveways. It is also used for
other driveways. Here is an example of a driveway to a church.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/100946154   I would agree that
residential driveways should probably be implied as access=private.

Jgon6

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 12:08 PM joost schouppe 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> The wiki does not explicitly state what the default assumed tagging is for
> highway=service + service=driveway. I've seen it used mostly as the private
> entrance to a house, i.e. the bit of road you use to connect the edge of
> your property to wherever you leave your car. People usually would not put
> up a sign "private" because it's just obvious to anyone.
> In rare cases, the owner will explictly put a sign up. In other rare
> cases, you are actually allowed to enter because there is some right of way.
>
> In this context, it seems obvious that the implied tag should be
> access=private (or destination at the most liberal). You would only add
> "private" if there is signage, and only something else if there is a right
> of way or something.
>
> But maybe this is not obvious in other countries or for other uses of the
> driveway tag? In any case, it seems some routers will allow cyclist to go
> through driveways without an access tag, and that is (in how I've seen it
> used a lot) problematic. Not setting the default to private or destination,
> forces the mapper to explicitly add the tag, which might be considered
> wrong if it is not signposted...
>
> Either way, the wiki could use more guidance about the access tag for this
> specific road type.
>
> (this has probably been discussed before, but I couldn't find something
> relevant)
>
> --
> Joost Schouppe
> OpenStreetMap  |
> Twitter  | LinkedIn
>  | Meetup
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] default access tag for driveways

[joost schouppe]

Hi,

The wiki does not explicitly state what the default assumed tagging is for
highway=service + service=driveway. I've seen it used mostly as the private
entrance to a house, i.e. the bit of road you use to connect the edge of
your property to wherever you leave your car. People usually would not put
up a sign "private" because it's just obvious to anyone.
In rare cases, the owner will explictly put a sign up. In other rare cases,
you are actually allowed to enter because there is some right of way.

In this context, it seems obvious that the implied tag should be
access=private (or destination at the most liberal). You would only add
"private" if there is signage, and only something else if there is a right
of way or something.

But maybe this is not obvious in other countries or for other uses of the
driveway tag? In any case, it seems some routers will allow cyclist to go
through driveways without an access tag, and that is (in how I've seen it
used a lot) problematic. Not setting the default to private or destination,
forces the mapper to explicitly add the tag, which might be considered
wrong if it is not signposted...

Either way, the wiki could use more guidance about the access tag for this
specific road type.

(this has probably been discussed before, but I couldn't find something
relevant)

-- 
Joost Schouppe
OpenStreetMap  |
Twitter  | LinkedIn
 | Meetup

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging