Re: [Tagging] defining service on railway=tram
On Sun, 10 Feb 2019 at 22:39, Jarek Piórkowski wrote: > Last month I wrote about defining service=* tag values for > railway=tram ways, which were previously not defined and used somewhat > varyingly in the wild. Thanks Mateusz for your help refining the > definitions! > > I have now written > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Jarek_Pi%C3%B3rkowski/Key:service > with a draft of new section I am suggesting to add to Key:service. > Please feel free to edit that wiki page, or comment here on mailing > list. Hello, In the spirit of being bold and keeping things relatively uncomplicated, I have now changed Key:service to note current tagging status for tram tracks, and add suggested interpretations of railway service=* values: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:service=prev=1820049 Please feel free to revert this change if you strongly disagree, and comment if you wish. Thanks, --Jarek ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] defining service on railway=tram
Hi all, Last month I wrote about defining service=* tag values for railway=tram ways, which were previously not defined and used somewhat varyingly in the wild. Thanks Mateusz for your help refining the definitions! I have now written https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Jarek_Pi%C3%B3rkowski/Key:service with a draft of new section I am suggesting to add to Key:service. Please feel free to edit that wiki page, or comment here on mailing list. Should this go through proposal process? It's not defining a new tag, but it is suggesting newly defined meanings that in some cases differ slightly from current use (in particular not using service=spur). Thanks, --Jarek ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] defining service on railway=tram
Jan 23, 2019, 3:53 PM by ja...@piorkowski.ca:
> I sense a potential difficulty in defining these with iron-clad
> accuracy. I'm not sure if that's needed, or is it acceptable to use a
> "you'll know it when you see it" guideline?
>
I would give up attempts at precise definitions that always work.
Even for such basic things as distinguishing trains, light rail, subway and
trams
from each other. I remember case of system where
describing it as tram and trolleybus would both be fine.
Some degree of "nearly always" is typically necessary.
> One more thought: in some systems, you have frequent service (several
> times an hour) on "normal" routes and tracks, but a few stops or turn
> tracks are used couple of times a day by "depot trips": by vehicles
> that are heading towards the yard but technically remain in service
> and can be boarded by passengers (in Polish "zjazd do zajezdni"). IMO
> I would exclude those from "normal service" if they happen to travel
> over track unique to them. But I'm not exactly sure how to define it
> without also including smaller systems (tourist- or commute-focused)
> that might only have a couple of trips per day in all.
>
> Or maybe we should just let local mappers decide themselves what is
> part of the "normal" system.
>
It may be the best solution, but attempt to have some guide/hints would be
valuable.
But yes, differences between tram systems are significant (I guess that is
because
unlike trains each track system is separate and in part develops on its own).
>
> Here an attempt at making the guidelines more exact:
>
> 1. no service tag is given to:
> a. tracks serving a stop where a passenger can expect to regularly
> board a tram and be subject to the normal fare system
> b. tracks that a scheduled tram servicing a route connecting stops as
> detailed in 1a travels over
>
> (Commentary:
> 1a. So, with a "usual" ticket. If the area/city/system offers a
> monthly ticket, it should be valid on this tram. Zone fares are
> included in systems that use them, special "excursion" or "railfan"
> tickets are excluded.
> 1b. This is intended to cover end-route loops and normally-used bits
> of tracks with no stops on them.)
>
I am not sure is "normal fare system" useful. In (theoretical) case with tram
in my city going outside the central zone and into agglomeration zone with
separate fare system - I would not add service tags.
>
> 2. service=yard is given to:
> a. tracks within tram storage and work areas ("yards", "garages",
> "depots" - where trams are parked overnight, maintained, light
> repairs)
> b. tracks leading to the yard (connecting to tracks described in 2a.),
> provided they aren't covered by point 1 (that is, no regular passenger
> service stops)
>
> 3. service=crossover is given to crossover tracks where dual-ended
> trams change direction. Only use it between two main tracks with no
> service tag, otherwise use service tag of the tracks that are
> connected.
>
> 4. service=siding is given to tracks not covered by points 1, 2, or 3
> above. It is intended for tracks that are not used for normally
> scheduled passenger service, including diversion-only, emergency,
> non-revenue trackage, as well as turn tracks not used in normal
> scheduled passenger service.
>
I see no problems here.
> Is that too detailed? Not precise enough?
>
Seems OK for me, style is a bit unusual ("as detailed in 1a") but it may be
easily changed by
someone who dislikes it.
*goes to add service=siding on nearby tram loop*
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Re: [Tagging] defining service on railway=tram
On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 at 15:51, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> Evertthing is right and welcome!
Cheers, thank you!
>> 1. no service tag recommended for tracks that are regularly used in
>> scheduled service, including loops and tail tracks
> Also part of loops that are never used to carry passengers, right?
IMO yes, on the same basis we keep one set of tracks through a railway
yard without service=yard, provided that the track is actually
regularly used.
Loop track that exists as a spare or connecting track and is not
frequently used (e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/37216494,
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/411526161) would get service=siding
under the rules worded below.
>> 3. service=siding for tracks not used for normally scheduled passenger
>> service (including diversion-only, emergency, non-revenue trackage, as
>> well as turn tracks not used in scheduled service)
> What about tracks regularly used for irregular service?
> In my city it would be
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.04996=19.94753#map=18/50.04996/19.94753
My first instinct would be to ask: can a passenger expect to stand at
a stop there and regularly board a tram for regular fare, same as with
any other stop in the city? But maybe expectations as to what "normal
service" is are different elsewhere.
I sense a potential difficulty in defining these with iron-clad
accuracy. I'm not sure if that's needed, or is it acceptable to use a
"you'll know it when you see it" guideline?
One more thought: in some systems, you have frequent service (several
times an hour) on "normal" routes and tracks, but a few stops or turn
tracks are used couple of times a day by "depot trips": by vehicles
that are heading towards the yard but technically remain in service
and can be boarded by passengers (in Polish "zjazd do zajezdni"). IMO
I would exclude those from "normal service" if they happen to travel
over track unique to them. But I'm not exactly sure how to define it
without also including smaller systems (tourist- or commute-focused)
that might only have a couple of trips per day in all.
Or maybe we should just let local mappers decide themselves what is
part of the "normal" system.
Here an attempt at making the guidelines more exact:
1. no service tag is given to:
a. tracks serving a stop where a passenger can expect to regularly
board a tram and be subject to the normal fare system
b. tracks that a scheduled tram servicing a route connecting stops as
detailed in 1a travels over
(Commentary:
1a. So, with a "usual" ticket. If the area/city/system offers a
monthly ticket, it should be valid on this tram. Zone fares are
included in systems that use them, special "excursion" or "railfan"
tickets are excluded.
1b. This is intended to cover end-route loops and normally-used bits
of tracks with no stops on them.)
2. service=yard is given to:
a. tracks within tram storage and work areas ("yards", "garages",
"depots" - where trams are parked overnight, maintained, light
repairs)
b. tracks leading to the yard (connecting to tracks described in 2a.),
provided they aren't covered by point 1 (that is, no regular passenger
service stops)
3. service=crossover is given to crossover tracks where dual-ended
trams change direction. Only use it between two main tracks with no
service tag, otherwise use service tag of the tracks that are
connected.
4. service=siding is given to tracks not covered by points 1, 2, or 3
above. It is intended for tracks that are not used for normally
scheduled passenger service, including diversion-only, emergency,
non-revenue trackage, as well as turn tracks not used in normal
scheduled passenger service.
Is that too detailed? Not precise enough?
Thanks,
--Jarek
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Re: [Tagging] defining service on railway=tram
Jan 19, 2019, 9:48 PM by ja...@piorkowski.ca:
> Hello,
>
> First time posting here, forgive if I've missed some rules.
>
Evertthing
is right and welcome!
>
> Summary: I wanted to refine tagging of some tram/streetcar tracks to
> show what they're used for, and found this isn't standardized and
> isn't documented.
>
> I would like to suggest updating wiki for Key:service to specify
> recommendations for railway=tram:
>
> 1. no service tag recommended for tracks that are regularly used in
> scheduled service, including loops and tail tracks
>
Also part of loops that are never used to carry passengers, right?
> 2. service=yard for tracks within and leading to tram storage and work
> areas ("yards", "garages", "depots" - where trams are parked
> overnight, maintained, light repairs)
>
Looks correct to me.
> 3. service=siding for tracks not used for normally scheduled passenger
> service (including diversion-only, emergency, non-revenue trackage, as
> well as turn tracks not used in scheduled service)
>
What about tracks regularly used for irregular service?
In my city it would be
https://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=50.04996=19.94753#map=18/50.04996/19.94753=N
> 4. service=crossover for crossover tracks (where dual-ended trams
> change direction - only use between two main tracks with no service
> tag - otherwise use service tag of the tracks that are connected)
>
I see no problem here.
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[Tagging] defining service on railway=tram
Hello,
First time posting here, forgive if I've missed some rules.
Summary: I wanted to refine tagging of some tram/streetcar tracks to
show what they're used for, and found this isn't standardized and
isn't documented.
I would like to suggest updating wiki for Key:service to specify
recommendations for railway=tram:
1. no service tag recommended for tracks that are regularly used in
scheduled service, including loops and tail tracks
2. service=yard for tracks within and leading to tram storage and work
areas ("yards", "garages", "depots" - where trams are parked
overnight, maintained, light repairs)
3. service=siding for tracks not used for normally scheduled passenger
service (including diversion-only, emergency, non-revenue trackage, as
well as turn tracks not used in scheduled service)
4. service=crossover for crossover tracks (where dual-ended trams
change direction - only use between two main tracks with no service
tag - otherwise use service tag of the tracks that are connected)
Currently I suggest no change for railway=light_rail as they seem
substantially different and I have not checked on their tagging.
Background:
In Toronto we make a distinction for "non-revenue trackage" on the
streetcar/tram system. These are tram/streetcar tracks that are not
normally used for carrying fare-paying passengers in scheduled
service, but may be used for detours if needed due to construction or
accident. Currently most of these are not tagged specially. My first
instinct was to tag non-revenue as service=siding, but this doesn't
match the wiki definition. Bay Street is one such case:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/9454845
Another example I'm familiar with is Alte Schönhauser Str. in Berlin,
where tracks were retained after a new tram route was built, and - as
I understand it - are used in special cases:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/153424801
On-ground difference might be that standing street-side, on normal
track one might see a tram go by every 5 minutes, whereas on
non-revenue trackage at least hours and possibly days might go by
between trams. This might be particularly common in cities with larger
networks and "legacy" networks of interconnected lines. Similarly,
tracks leading to garages/yards would only be used by trams going into
and out of service with no passengers on board.
Apart from de-emphasizing less important lines when rendering, data
consumers might be interested in this information to avoid routing
vehicles near transport corridors (likely to be busier, have more
pedestrians), or to estimate length of active vs support track. Public
transit routers could use it to estimate route taken in absence of
path/shape information.
Currently this is not documented in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:service (only sections for
highways and heavy railways are included), seemingly in any of the
wiki languages. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dtram
includes only "service=yard - if it is a sidings (sidings, tracks in
depots)" which seems to me unsatisfactory.
It appears osm-carto currently renders service=yard, service=spur, and
service=siding with a thinner line at zooms 16 to 18, and hides them
at zoom 15. service=crossover does not seem to get special rendering.
Actual tagging currently on the map varies - I've attempted an overview below.
Trams' service=yard seems currently used fairly widely for tram
garages/depots. This is not the same as railways' "yards" on the
English wiki page, but DE:Key:service does include it as
"Betriebswerken, Ausbesserungswerken usw" ("works/depots, repair
shops, etc").
My questions:
- are there other approaches used elsewhere that I've missed in the
overview below?
- any comments on the scheme suggested above please? in particular the
choice of service=siding or service=spur for non-revenue trackage
- any support for beginning use of tram-specific values, for example
service=loop, or service=non-revenue?
Overview of current tagging in cities I'm familiar with:
- Berlin, Alte Schönhauser Str. (described above):
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/153424801 has service=siding
- Berlin, S Adlershof loop (former terminus, as I understand it not
normally used) https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/139964269 has
service=siding
- Berlin, Travestr. loop (used as terminus)
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/167791954 has service=yard
- Berlin, S Warschauer Str. tail track (used very frequently, by empty
streetcars) https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/11273262 has
service=yard
- Berlin, Roederplatz, turn track not used in scheduled service
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/23913897 has service=yard
- Toronto, Earlscourt loop (scheduled for use but only for couple of
trips a day) https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/530112420 has
service=siding (and did so before my edit)
- Toronto, Vaughan Road track (only streetcars entering/exiting
service) https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/9406754 has service=spur
- Toronto, Bathurst Street track right next to
