Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Warin]

On 19/2/23 10:23, Matija Nalis wrote:

On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 21:08:17 +1100, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 17/2/23 12:13, Matija Nalis wrote:

I see few options. If it happens more regularly, map as:

- If it happens more regularly, map as: natural=wetland + intermittent=yes
- if they very rarely (if ever) become waterlogged, mark them whatever they are 
currently (or most of the time).
- see what other similar features in the region use, and copy/paste that.


In one part I have previously tagged one of them, thinking it was a rare
thing I used a square peg in a round hole... but 4,000 of them in one

So, were any of that 4000 tagged in OSM, and if so, how?



I have added the tag landcover=dry_swamp in order to identify them in a 
searchable way.


https://taginfo.geofabrik.de/australia-oceania/australia/tags/landcover=dry_swamp

Some 4,347 now.

99% of them tagged with 'natural=mud'

OSM describes 'mud' as "wet, water saturated fine grained soil without 
significant plant growth." As these areas are dry most of the time and 
have plants.. square pegs in round holes.


Within Australia 'natural=mud' has some 4,550 uses .. deduct 4,330 dry 
swamps with that tag and it leaves 220 mud areas that are not dry swamps...





state of Australia, with more of them in other parts of Australia and
yet more in other parts of the world I think that means there should be
suitable tags for them not some stop gap tagging.

In OSM, things get mapped when someone care about them.
It is quite possible nobody cared enough about the distiction between "dry 
swamp" and
for example "natural=wetland" + "intemittent=yes" to map that differetly.

If you do care about those for whatever reason (most often people map things
because they already have or at least envision an usecase of using that data),
I'd suggest proposing the solution you would prefer.
Instructions on doing so, if you are interested, can be found here:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process



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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Matija Nalis]

On Fri, 17 Feb 2023 21:08:17 +1100, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 17/2/23 12:13, Matija Nalis wrote:
>> I see few options. If it happens more regularly, map as:
>>
>> - If it happens more regularly, map as: natural=wetland + intermittent=yes
>> - if they very rarely (if ever) become waterlogged, mark them whatever they 
>> are currently (or most of the time).
>> - see what other similar features in the region use, and copy/paste that.
>
>
> In one part I have previously tagged one of them, thinking it was a rare 
> thing I used a square peg in a round hole... but 4,000 of them in one 

So, were any of that 4000 tagged in OSM, and if so, how?

> state of Australia, with more of them in other parts of Australia and 
> yet more in other parts of the world I think that means there should be 
> suitable tags for them not some stop gap tagging.

In OSM, things get mapped when someone care about them.
It is quite possible nobody cared enough about the distiction between "dry 
swamp" and 
for example "natural=wetland" + "intemittent=yes" to map that differetly.

If you do care about those for whatever reason (most often people map things
because they already have or at least envision an usecase of using that data),
I'd suggest proposing the solution you would prefer. 
Instructions on doing so, if you are interested, can be found here:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_process


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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Warin]

On 17/2/23 12:13, Matija Nalis wrote:

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 21:07:22 +1100, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

The ‘dry swamp’ has no apparent way to tag it. These will not be found
in Europe, just as you don’t find deserts there.

They have occasional water, not seasonal, not yearly but, say, between 5
to 20 years they have water. As such they do not satisfy the OSM swamp
definitions at all.

I see few options. If it happens more regularly, map as:

- If it happens more regularly, map as: natural=wetland + intermittent=yes
   there even exist few cases of "wetland=dry", so you may add that (or 
something similar) too.
   
   Yes, I know that "natural=wetland" tag talks about "seasonal", but note the "intermittent=yes" changes the meaning of

   the main tag significantly. There are even things which are normally 
(without intermittent tag) ALWAYS full of water
   (like rivers and lakes), but intermittent=yes changes what they are:
   
   https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:intermittent
   
- if they very rarely (if ever) become waterlogged, mark them whatever they are currently (or most of the time).


   After all, you wouldn't mark say Fukushima as wetland, because due to its 
location and climate it is prone
   to tsunami and flood disasters.
   
   So, if there are trees, mark as natural=forest. If grass, landcover=grass. If no vegetation then natural=desert. etc.

   Add human readable description=* mentioning the rare floods when it becomes 
swamp.



Some deserts have vegetation. And they are still deserts even with 
vegetation. Some deserts are not sand, and they are still deserts. It is 
not the land cover that make a desert.


Dry/arid/ephemeral swamps are still dry/arid/ephemeral swamps even when 
they are dry. It is not the vegetation alone that makes a 
dry/arid/ephemeral swamp.


   
- see what other similar features in the region use, and copy/paste that.



In one part I have previously tagged one of them, thinking it was a rare 
thing I used a square peg in a round hole... but 4,000 of them in one 
state of Australia, with more of them in other parts of Australia and 
yet more in other parts of the world I think that means there should be 
suitable tags for them not some stop gap tagging.




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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Matija Nalis]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 21:07:22 +1100, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The ‘dry swamp’ has no apparent way to tag it. These will not be found 
> in Europe, just as you don’t find deserts there.
>
> They have occasional water, not seasonal, not yearly but, say, between 5 
> to 20 years they have water. As such they do not satisfy the OSM swamp 
> definitions at all.

I see few options. If it happens more regularly, map as:

- If it happens more regularly, map as: natural=wetland + intermittent=yes
  there even exist few cases of "wetland=dry", so you may add that (or 
something similar) too.
  
  Yes, I know that "natural=wetland" tag talks about "seasonal", but note the 
"intermittent=yes" changes the meaning of
  the main tag significantly. There are even things which are normally (without 
intermittent tag) ALWAYS full of water
  (like rivers and lakes), but intermittent=yes changes what they are:
  
  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:intermittent
  
- if they very rarely (if ever) become waterlogged, mark them whatever they are 
currently (or most of the time).

  After all, you wouldn't mark say Fukushima as wetland, because due to its 
location and climate it is prone
  to tsunami and flood disasters.
  
  So, if there are trees, mark as natural=forest. If grass, landcover=grass. If 
no vegetation then natural=desert. etc.
  Add human readable description=* mentioning the rare floods when it becomes 
swamp.
  
- see what other similar features in the region use, and copy/paste that.
  Even if it is slightly wrong (or with time better solution becomes 
available), 
  someone writing a bot to autocorrect will need to fix those other features too
  so will fix yours too.



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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[stevea]

On Feb 16, 2023, at 10:50 AM, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> writes:
>> In which case the OSM meaning of 'wetland' must change to incorporate dry as 
>> well as wet.
> 
> We need to adopt the professional definitions, not rewrite them roughly
> and not really correctly.  Not sure which you are in favor of.

Repeating myself from an earlier post:  "this list (topic, thread) benefits 
from the (especially modern) perspective of geologists, hydrologists or other 
landuse experts who could offer some perspective on how land and water areas 
are classified."  (How climate change has, does and will affect this is an 
important angle not to be ignored).  Simply stated, "dry swamps" seem to be an 
edge we (OSM) can't get a clear handle on.  It's not a major problem and it is 
one we can overcome.

Nearly all of the time, (for streets, crosswalks, bridleways, gift shops, 
viewpoints, fuel stations...) we OSM mappers do a fine job of classifying thing 
into tags (key-value pairs) with little or no ambiguity.  For "dry swamps," and 
what both OSM mappers and the world in general might mean by that remains an 
open question, with barely a modicum of understanding so far.  (Says this 
participant in the discussion).

As Greg says, OSM deserves "really correct" (not "rough") definitions.  Some of 
the time, OSM can get away with a bit of smearing or blurring of definitions.  
In the case of "dry swamps," no.  While words about them have been written 
here, my take-away from these discussions results in more confusion rather than 
more clarity, and I doubt I am alone in that regard.

I'd like us to effectively re-start this discussion with some "qualified 
experts" on the topic of dry swamps.  I put that in quotes because we might 
still argue whether someone is or isn't qualified or an expert, but so far, we 
don't seem like we will gain much traction without someone very well-versed on 
the topic.  So, "putting out the call..." here and now.

BTW, it's OK that we say we might or should do this.  I'm not saying we're 
"wrong" or "deficient" for asking for some expert help — it's done all the time 
in many circles (companies, governments, organizations, groups of friends, 
families...).
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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Greg Troxel]

Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> writes:

> In which case the OSM meaning of 'wetland' must change to incorporate dry as 
> well as wet.

We need to adopt the professional definitions, not rewrite them roughly
and not really correctly.  Not sure which you are in favor of.

>>   Or if there are
>> trees and AU wetland scientists call it swamp because of the
>> every-few-years flood being dominant, I'm ok with natural=swamp.

> ? flood dominate? Most of the time the 'dry' is dominate.

By dominant I meant the factor that controls the type of plants, not
what is true most of the the time.  That's what dominant means in this
area, as I understand it.

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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Warin]

On 16/2/23 04:54, Greg Troxel wrote:

Andrew Davidson  writes:


On 15/2/23 02:00, Greg Troxel wrote:

For wetlands, the definitions in the US:

https://www.fws.gov/media/classification-wetlands-and-deepwater-habitats-united-states


Which is:

In general terms, wetlands are lands where saturation with water is
the dominant factor determining the nature of substrate development
and the types of plant and animal communities living in the substrate
and on its surface. The single feature that most wetlands share is a
substrate that is at least periodically saturated with or covered by
water. The water creates severe physiological problems for all plants
and animals except
those that are specially adapted for such conditions.


The same definition is used in AU:

https://wetlandinfo.des.qld.gov.au/resources/static/pdf/ecology/soils/qw-soil-indicators.pdf


More or less, a wetland is characterized by being wet for at least a
portion of the growing season in a normal year.   And, just because you
don't see standing water doesn't mean the soil is not wet.

I assume you are referring to this:

Yes, and I was aware of plant test above and skipped it for simplicity.
Also because it seems that if the plant species are predominately those
adapted for wet, then surely there must often be water.



Err no. There maybe water at some depth, say same metres, but surface water is 
not frequent and may not be yearly.

I am thinking of the swales between sand dunes in the Simpson desert.. 
apparently some of them are considered 'swamps'...




If neither plants nor soil is present, then the wetland identification
must be made strictly on the basis of hydrology. In this case, the
substrate should be “saturated with water or covered by shallow water
at some time during the growing season of each year.” Cowardin et
al. (1979) fully realized how vague this hydrologic definition was
but, given the lack of detailed hydrologic data from the diversity of
wetland types, geologic regions, and climatic regions of the U.S.,
there was no
way they could have been more specific.

This is a rule of thumb that is used if the plant and soil
characteristics are not present (or if the information is not
available). It is a rule based on wetland data from the US. The
Australian ecosystem is far more fragile and inundation less often
than annually is enough to make it the dominant factor.

So, if you want to say that wetland scientists in AU consider specific
areas that do not have soil or plants but which are flooded every few
years to be natural=wetland, that sounds fine to tag it as such.


The OSM description excludes dryness for swamps.


  It
won't be swamp, because that's a wetland with trees.


Swamps do not have to have trees. Tha OSM description accepts that.

"vegetation that tolerates periodic inundation or soil saturation


  Or if there are
trees and AU wetland scientists call it swamp because of the
every-few-years flood being dominant, I'm ok with natural=swamp.



? flood dominate? Most of the time the 'dry' is dominate.



I do not think we should invent a new tag "dry_swamp", as that's drawing
a distinction that seems not found in the professional literature.



But 'Arid Swamp' AND 'Ephemeral Swamp; are found in the 'professional 
literature'...



If there is some idea from the literature to adapt, that's ok too, but
the hierarchy of OSM should follow the hierarchy of the literature
(swamp first, subtype is less than annual, to make something up).



In which case the OSM meaning of 'wetland' must change to incorporate dry as 
well as wet.


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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Greg Troxel]

Andrew Davidson  writes:

> On 15/2/23 02:00, Greg Troxel wrote:
>> For wetlands, the definitions in the US:
>>
>> https://www.fws.gov/media/classification-wetlands-and-deepwater-habitats-united-states
>> 
>
> Which is:
>
> In general terms, wetlands are lands where saturation with water is
> the dominant factor determining the nature of substrate development
> and the types of plant and animal communities living in the substrate
> and on its surface. The single feature that most wetlands share is a
> substrate that is at least periodically saturated with or covered by
> water. The water creates severe physiological problems for all plants
> and animals except
> those that are specially adapted for such conditions.
>
>
> The same definition is used in AU:
>
> https://wetlandinfo.des.qld.gov.au/resources/static/pdf/ecology/soils/qw-soil-indicators.pdf
>
>> More or less, a wetland is characterized by being wet for at least a
>> portion of the growing season in a normal year.   And, just because you
>> don't see standing water doesn't mean the soil is not wet.
>
> I assume you are referring to this:

Yes, and I was aware of plant test above and skipped it for simplicity.
Also because it seems that if the plant species are predominately those
adapted for wet, then surely there must often be water.

> If neither plants nor soil is present, then the wetland identification
> must be made strictly on the basis of hydrology. In this case, the
> substrate should be “saturated with water or covered by shallow water
> at some time during the growing season of each year.” Cowardin et
> al. (1979) fully realized how vague this hydrologic definition was
> but, given the lack of detailed hydrologic data from the diversity of
> wetland types, geologic regions, and climatic regions of the U.S.,
> there was no
> way they could have been more specific.
>
> This is a rule of thumb that is used if the plant and soil
> characteristics are not present (or if the information is not
> available). It is a rule based on wetland data from the US. The
> Australian ecosystem is far more fragile and inundation less often
> than annually is enough to make it the dominant factor.

So, if you want to say that wetland scientists in AU consider specific
areas that do not have soil or plants but which are flooded every few
years to be natural=wetland, that sounds fine to tag it as such.  It
won't be swamp, because that's a wetland with trees.  Or if there are
trees and AU wetland scientists call it swamp because of the
every-few-years flood being dominant, I'm ok with natural=swamp.

I do not think we should invent a new tag "dry_swamp", as that's drawing
a distinction that seems not found in the professional literature.

If there is some idea from the literature to adapt, that's ok too, but
the hierarchy of OSM should follow the hierarchy of the literature
(swamp first, subtype is less than annual, to make something up).

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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Andrew Davidson]

On 15/2/23 02:00, Greg Troxel wrote:


For wetlands, the definitions in the US:

   
https://www.fws.gov/media/classification-wetlands-and-deepwater-habitats-united-states



Which is:

In general terms, wetlands are lands where saturation with water is the 
dominant factor determining the nature of substrate development and the 
types of plant and animal communities living in the substrate and on its 
surface. The single feature that most wetlands share is a substrate that 
is at least periodically saturated with or covered by water. The water 
creates severe physiological problems for all plants and animals except

those that are specially adapted for such conditions.


The same definition is used in AU:

https://wetlandinfo.des.qld.gov.au/resources/static/pdf/ecology/soils/qw-soil-indicators.pdf


More or less, a wetland is characterized by being wet for at least a
portion of the growing season in a normal year.   And, just because you
don't see standing water doesn't mean the soil is not wet.


I assume you are referring to this:

If neither plants nor soil is present, then the wetland identification 
must be made strictly on the basis of hydrology. In this case, the 
substrate should be “saturated with water or covered by shallow water at 
some time during the growing season of each year.” Cowardin et al. 
(1979) fully realized how vague this hydrologic definition was but, 
given the lack of detailed hydrologic data from the diversity of wetland 
types, geologic regions, and climatic regions of the U.S., there was no

way they could have been more specific.

This is a rule of thumb that is used if the plant and soil 
characteristics are not present (or if the information is not 
available). It is a rule based on wetland data from the US. The 
Australian ecosystem is far more fragile and inundation less often than 
annually is enough to make it the dominant factor.




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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Greg Troxel]

Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> writes:

> The ‘dry swamp’ has no apparent way to tag it. These will not be found
> in Europe, just as you don’t find deserts there.
>
> They have occasional water, not seasonal, not yearly but, say, between
> 5 to 20 years they have water. As such they do not satisfy the OSM
> swamp definitions at all.

They do not satisfy the science definition of wetland either.

> See https://theconversation.com/why-a-wetland-might-not-be-wet-103687
> for more on their characteristics, at least in Australia. OSM has
> access to a imagery source in Australia that maps them, so OSM has a
> legal source for them. What is needed is a tag for them, say,
> ‘natural=dry_swamp’???

It sounds like "Place with trees that is known to flood occasionally"
which is natural=wood (if natural).

> There are ~ 4,000 of these ‘natural=mud’ mapped so far that are in
> fact ‘dry swamps’. Note that the tag natural=mud  wiki says “This tag
> should not be used for areas with intermittent water cover which are
> water covered or completely dry most of the time.” So this tagging is
> incorrect as they are dry most of the time…


As always, I think OSM should look to the professional literature and
adopt their definitions, exactly, rather than trying to invent
categories.

For wetlands, the definitions in the US:

  
https://www.fws.gov/media/classification-wetlands-and-deepwater-habitats-united-states

A broader perspective:

  https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/wetland

I am unclear on if "Cowardin" is really an international thing; I more
or less expect it to be as that's how scientists do things.

More or less, a wetland is characterized by being wet for at least a
portion of the growing season in a normal year.   And, just because you
don't see standing water doesn't mean the soil is not wet.

So to me, "dry swamp" is fairly clearly not a wetland and the first
thing is to get a real science opinion about whether it is wetland or
not.  A quick search does not support the idea that the term is used in
English at all.  I would expect a mapper.au could just call their
government, the part that does conservation and wetland rules and talk
to someone.

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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Andrew Davidson]

On 14/2/23 08:12, Andy Mabbett wrote:


Are they also known by some other name?

I ask because I can find no papers about the phenomenon, by that name,
on Google Scholar


Try ephemeral wetland.



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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Warin]

On 14/2/23 08:12, Andy Mabbett wrote:

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 10:07, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

The ‘dry swamp’ has no apparent way to tag it.

Are they also known by some other name?

I ask because I can find no papers about the phenomenon, by that name,
on Google Scholar



Sorry Andy .. that is the name on the source I am using .. but 'arid 
swamp' does get hits, Australia, Africa, central asia...



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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Andy Mabbett]

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023 at 10:07, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The ‘dry swamp’ has no apparent way to tag it.

Are they also known by some other name?

I ask because I can find no papers about the phenomenon, by that name,
on Google Scholar

-- 
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@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Warin]

On 12/2/23 02:23, Tod Fitch wrote:
In the deserts of the southwest United States there are features that 
could probably use similar help in tagging. In California they usually 
have “Dry Lake” in the name (assuming they are named). At least one in 
Arizona has “Playa” (Spanish for beach or shallow) in its name. From 
your description, they may get water more often than the “dry swamps” 
you write about but the tagging is similarly unclear.


At present the Wilcox Playa in Arizona is tagged with:

intermittent=yes
name=Willcox Playa
natural=water
note=This area is dry, not water or wetland.
type=multipolygon
wikidata=Q8003532
wikipedia=en:Willcox Playa

While a California example is tagged with:

name=Soda Dry Lake
natural=mud
wikidata=Q81309
wikipedia=en:Soda Lake (San Bernardino County)

This could be an interesting discussion and maybe we can arrive at 
tagging that works outside of Australia as well as accurately describe 
your dry swamps.





Australia too has 'dry lakes' the most famous is Lake Eyre, Relation: 
Kati Thanda-Lake Eyre (North) (253952) 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/253952#map=8/-28.343/137.592


I'd not describe it as a dry swamp as it lacks plant life due to the 
salt that is present when dry and the depth of water when wet. I 
describe it as a 'salt lake' and there are many of them in Australia. 
Presently tagged


alt_name =    Lake Eyre (North)
ele    = -15
intermittent  =   yes
name  =   Kati Thanda-Lake Eyre (North)
name:de  =   Eyresee
name:hu  =  Eyre-tó
natural =    water
old_name    = Kati Thanda
salt  =   yes
water   =  lake
wikidata   =  Q179970
wikipedia  =   en:Lake Eyre


I think I'd add the tag surface=salt just to drive home the point.

 I think a 'swamp' (wet or dry) should have plant life.


Another Australian link 
https://wetlandinfo.des.qld.gov.au/resources/static/pdf/resources/fact-sheets/profiles/new-profiles/29113-05-arid-swamps-web.pdf







On Feb 11, 2023, at 2:07 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


The ‘dry swamp’ has no apparent way to tag it. These will not be 
found in Europe, just as you don’t find deserts there.


They have occasional water, not seasonal, not yearly but, say, 
between 5 to 20 years they have water. As such they do not satisfy 
the OSM swamp definitions at all.


Seehttps://theconversation.com/why-a-wetland-might-not-be-wet-103687for 
more on their characteristics, at least in Australia. OSM has access 
to a imagery source in Australia that maps them, so OSM has a legal 
source for them. What is needed is a tag for them, say, 
‘natural=dry_swamp’???


There are ~ 4,000 of these ‘natural=mud’ mapped so far that are in 
fact ‘dry swamps’. Note that the tag natural=mud  wiki says “This tag 
should not be used for areas with intermittent water cover which are 
water covered or completely dry most of the time.” So this tagging is 
incorrect as they are dry most of the time…



There are more in existence but not mapped.

Samplehttps://www.openstreetmap.org/way/ 
1143851993 




Any thoughts?

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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Warin]

On 13/2/23 01:29, stevea wrote:

My point was that words and tags that exist now (like “seasonal” or 
"intermittent=yes”) may not mean or actually don’t mean quite what they used 
to, because of climate change.  These differing uses of existing tags are “becoming 
different” or have “become different” right now, not in the future.  OSM may need to 
redefine or modify tags which use words that assume a kind of “annual seasonality” 
which likely does not exist any longer — at least in some places.



I would object to redefining those tags as 'some' (many?) features 
retain those characteristics. If you have features that exhibit some 
other time based characteristic then there will need to be new tags for 
them, I look forward to the discussion.




I made this post to agree with Tod’s broadening of the topic (North American 
examples given, which are local and familiar to me) in the interests of 
achieving more unified, comprehensive tagging strategies for what are not only 
a relatively complex set of attributes, but a more worldwide approach to a wide 
variety of landscapes (natural areas, affected by geological / hydrological / 
ecological, sometimes plant-life-based processes).  I did so with a full 
understanding that “OSM maps what is here and now.”

The expertise of “how OSM does, might or should tag” often rests with people 
who post here.  However, it may be that this list benefits from the (especially 
modern) perspective of geologists, hydrologists or other landuse experts who 
could offer some perspective on how land and water areas are classified.  And 
importantly, how climate change actually does change these classifications.  
The changes which might ensue are not necessarily trivial, and likely include 
changes for both the present and future.  Today, it is prudent to be 
forward-looking, even if tagging we might craft is only preparatory in nature.


On Feb 12, 2023, at 1:04 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 12/2/23 11:13, stevea wrote:

On Feb 11, 2023, at 3:53 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 at 05:10, Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:
A wetland is a land area that is saturated with water, either permanently or 
seasonally”

But does "seasonally" include "maybe once every 20 years"?

Climate change (being real, humans on Earth do experience climate change right now) makes words like 
"intermittent" (to describe stream flow) and "seasonally" (about whether a wetland or 
playa has surface water, possibly over dusty, sandy, "soil" or raw earth annually or occasionally 
or almost-perpetually-but-not-always...) pretty goopy (wet, plastic, runny...) themselves. Assumptions 
change, words defined in one era become less precise over years.  This is normal language evolution, btw. 
Sometimes years and decades, sometimes many centuries.  I find it interesting how climate change does this, 
and it does.

In short:  it's hard to say what words about "changing, yet often predictable cycles of weather" 
mean when we're in the midst of changes about what "weather" means.  It might seem like 
"doomed to failure" here, but languages adjust, sometimes in poetic, beautiful ways.  And what is 
tagging but another language?


OSM maps what is here now. And these 'dry swamps' exist here and now.

What OSM wetlands evolve into in the future is a problem for the future of OSM 
and not something to waste time over now.


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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[stevea]

My point was that words and tags that exist now (like “seasonal” or 
"intermittent=yes”) may not mean or actually don’t mean quite what they used 
to, because of climate change.  These differing uses of existing tags are 
“becoming different” or have “become different” right now, not in the future.  
OSM may need to redefine or modify tags which use words that assume a kind of 
“annual seasonality” which likely does not exist any longer — at least in some 
places.

I made this post to agree with Tod’s broadening of the topic (North American 
examples given, which are local and familiar to me) in the interests of 
achieving more unified, comprehensive tagging strategies for what are not only 
a relatively complex set of attributes, but a more worldwide approach to a wide 
variety of landscapes (natural areas, affected by geological / hydrological / 
ecological, sometimes plant-life-based processes).  I did so with a full 
understanding that “OSM maps what is here and now.”

The expertise of “how OSM does, might or should tag” often rests with people 
who post here.  However, it may be that this list benefits from the (especially 
modern) perspective of geologists, hydrologists or other landuse experts who 
could offer some perspective on how land and water areas are classified.  And 
importantly, how climate change actually does change these classifications.  
The changes which might ensue are not necessarily trivial, and likely include 
changes for both the present and future.  Today, it is prudent to be 
forward-looking, even if tagging we might craft is only preparatory in nature.

> On Feb 12, 2023, at 1:04 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/2/23 11:13, stevea wrote:
>> On Feb 11, 2023, at 3:53 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  
>> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 at 05:10, Martin Koppenhoefer  
>>> wrote:
>>> A wetland is a land area that is saturated with water, either permanently 
>>> or seasonally”
>>> 
>>> But does "seasonally" include "maybe once every 20 years"?
>> Climate change (being real, humans on Earth do experience climate change 
>> right now) makes words like "intermittent" (to describe stream flow) and 
>> "seasonally" (about whether a wetland or playa has surface water, possibly 
>> over dusty, sandy, "soil" or raw earth annually or occasionally or 
>> almost-perpetually-but-not-always...) pretty goopy (wet, plastic, runny...) 
>> themselves. Assumptions change, words defined in one era become less precise 
>> over years.  This is normal language evolution, btw. Sometimes years and 
>> decades, sometimes many centuries.  I find it interesting how climate change 
>> does this, and it does.
>> 
>> In short:  it's hard to say what words about "changing, yet often 
>> predictable cycles of weather" mean when we're in the midst of changes about 
>> what "weather" means.  It might seem like "doomed to failure" here, but 
>> languages adjust, sometimes in poetic, beautiful ways.  And what is tagging 
>> but another language?
> 
> 
> OSM maps what is here now. And these 'dry swamps' exist here and now.
> 
> What OSM wetlands evolve into in the future is a problem for the future of 
> OSM and not something to waste time over now.


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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Warin]

On 12/2/23 11:13, stevea wrote:

On Feb 11, 2023, at 3:53 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 at 05:10, Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:
A wetland is a land area that is saturated with water, either permanently or 
seasonally”

But does "seasonally" include "maybe once every 20 years"?

Climate change (being real, humans on Earth do experience climate change right now) makes words like 
"intermittent" (to describe stream flow) and "seasonally" (about whether a wetland or 
playa has surface water, possibly over dusty, sandy, "soil" or raw earth annually or occasionally 
or almost-perpetually-but-not-always...) pretty goopy (wet, plastic, runny...) themselves.  Assumptions 
change, words defined in one era become less precise over years.  This is normal language evolution, btw.  
Sometimes years and decades, sometimes many centuries.  I find it interesting how climate change does this, 
and it does.

In short:  it's hard to say what words about "changing, yet often predictable cycles of weather" 
mean when we're in the midst of changes about what "weather" means.  It might seem like 
"doomed to failure" here, but languages adjust, sometimes in poetic, beautiful ways.  And what is 
tagging but another language?



OSM maps what is here now. And these 'dry swamps' exist here and now.

What OSM wetlands evolve into in the future is a problem for the future 
of OSM and not something to waste time over now.




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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[stevea]

I'll (blushingly) ask the glass be looked at as half-full.

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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 at 10:18, stevea  wrote:

> "Brevity is the soul of wit" is true for reasons.
>

& when you're only brief half the time ... ? :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[stevea]

On Feb 11, 2023, at 3:53 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 at 05:10, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> A wetland is a land area that is saturated with water, either permanently or 
> seasonally”
> 
> But does "seasonally" include "maybe once every 20 years"?

Climate change (being real, humans on Earth do experience climate change right 
now) makes words like "intermittent" (to describe stream flow) and "seasonally" 
(about whether a wetland or playa has surface water, possibly over dusty, 
sandy, "soil" or raw earth annually or occasionally or 
almost-perpetually-but-not-always...) pretty goopy (wet, plastic, runny...) 
themselves.  Assumptions change, words defined in one era become less precise 
over years.  This is normal language evolution, btw.  Sometimes years and 
decades, sometimes many centuries.  I find it interesting how climate change 
does this, and it does.

In short:  it's hard to say what words about "changing, yet often predictable 
cycles of weather" mean when we're in the midst of changes about what "weather" 
means.  It might seem like "doomed to failure" here, but languages adjust, 
sometimes in poetic, beautiful ways.  And what is tagging but another language?

I think a result is for us to be as precise and yet as succinct as we can be 
with agreed-upon tagging.  "Brevity is the soul of wit" is true for reasons.

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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 12 Feb 2023 at 05:10, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> A wetland is a land area that is saturated with water, either permanently
> or seasonally”
>

But does "seasonally" include "maybe once every 20 years"?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[stevea]

I'm making popcorn and watching, mostly.  But going with Tod and others, it's 
shaping up as interesting.

I've been to many playas and such.  Some are wetlands, some are not.  Some are 
mud and some are year-round-sand or dirt and likely desert or at least 
semi-arid (and as far as I know OSM doesn't have semiarid=*).  And landuse and 
airports with runways and windsocks and taxiways are quickly rendered and 
drones are flyin' around and things can get sort of smeared w.r.t. landuse and 
landcover and the wheels go round and round.

Happy mapping, everyone.
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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 11 Feb 2023, at 12:06, Jez Nicholson  wrote:
> 
> They aren't wetlands as they aren't wet all the time.


for wetlands is isn’t a requirement they be wet all the time, the first 
sentence in the OpenStreetMap definition is: “ A wetland is a land area that is 
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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Tod Fitch]

In the deserts of the southwest United States there are features that could 
probably use similar help in tagging. In California they usually have “Dry 
Lake” in the name (assuming they are named). At least one in Arizona has 
“Playa” (Spanish for beach or shallow) in its name. From your description, they 
may get water more often than the “dry swamps” you write about but the tagging 
is similarly unclear.

At present the Wilcox Playa in Arizona is tagged with:

intermittent=yes
name=Willcox Playa
natural=water
note=This area is dry, not water or wetland.
type=multipolygon
wikidata=Q8003532
wikipedia=en:Willcox Playa

While a California example is tagged with:

name=Soda Dry Lake
natural=mud
wikidata=Q81309
wikipedia=en:Soda Lake (San Bernardino County)

This could be an interesting discussion and maybe we can arrive at tagging that 
works outside of Australia as well as accurately describe your dry swamps.

Cheers,
Tod

> On Feb 11, 2023, at 2:07 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> The ‘dry swamp’ has no apparent way to tag it. These will not be found in 
> Europe, just as you don’t find deserts there. 
> They have occasional water, not seasonal, not yearly but, say, between 5 to 
> 20 years they have water. As such they do not satisfy the OSM swamp 
> definitions at all. 
> See https://theconversation.com/why-a-wetland-might-not-be-wet-103687 
>  for more 
> on their characteristics, at least in Australia. OSM has access to a imagery 
> source in Australia that maps them, so OSM has a legal source for them. What 
> is needed is a tag for them, say, ‘natural=dry_swamp’??? 
> There are ~ 4,000 of these ‘natural=mud’ mapped so far that are in fact ‘dry 
> swamps’. Note that the tag natural=mud  wiki says “This tag should not be 
> used for areas with intermittent water cover which are water covered or 
> completely dry most of the time.” So this tagging is incorrect as they are 
> dry most of the time…  
> 
> There are more in existence but not mapped. 
> Sample https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/ 
> 1143851993 
> 
> 
> Any thoughts? 
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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Warin]

On 11/2/23 22:03, Jez Nicholson wrote:
The UK has plenty of areas around the coast that are deliberately not 
protected by flood defences so they would soak up the power of an 
intermittent flood. Are these a similar thing? They aren't wetlands as 
they aren't wet all the time.



From https://theconversation.com/why-a-wetland-might-not-be-wet-103687


"Australian wetlands have natural wet-dry cycles, with dry spells that 
can last for decades. Dry phases are necessary for the life cycle of the 
wetland itself, as well as for many of the plants and animals that live 
there."


"Wetlands may stay dry for many decades, while eggs and seeds wait and 
rest until the next flood. Some eggs (such as shield shrimp) are small 
enough to be dispersed by the wind, or hitch a ride on waterbirds 
 
leaving the area."



That sound similar to these 'flood defenses'?




On Sat, 11 Feb 2023, 10:52 Warin, <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


On 11/2/23 21:23, Jez Nicholson wrote:

I see what you are saying, but 'dry swamp' feels slightly odd. Is
there something like 'intermittent wetland' that is more appropriate?



It is 'slightly odd' ... in that it is not found in populated
parts of the globe.

OSM tagging is written mostly by people in populated parts of the
globe, so it suits those populated places. That is no ones fault,
we all operate on the knowledge we have.

Unfortunately 'dry swamps' exist and do not fit the definitions
used in OSM exiting tags, 'wetlands' are wet.. not 'dry', 'swamps'
are 'wet', even 'mud' is wet..

OSM existing tags

wetland = "A natural area subject to inundation or with
waterlogged ground"

Not water logged most of the time so does not fit... The
'inundation' is very seldom.

swamp = "An area of waterlogged forest, with dense vegetation."

Not water logged most of the time, not a forest, and not dense
vegetation

mud = "Area covered with mud: water saturated fine grained soil
without significant plant growth"

Again not water saturated most of the time.



On Sat, 11 Feb 2023, 10:11 Warin, <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

The ‘dry swamp’ has no apparent way to tag it. These will not
be found in Europe, just as you don’t find deserts there.

They have occasional water, not seasonal, not yearly but,
say, between 5 to 20 years they have water. As such they do
not satisfy the OSM swamp definitions at all.

See
https://theconversation.com/why-a-wetland-might-not-be-wet-103687
for more on their characteristics, at least in Australia. OSM
has access to a imagery source in Australia that maps them,
so OSM has a legal source for them. What is needed is a tag
for them, say, ‘natural=dry_swamp’???

There are ~ 4,000 of these ‘natural=mud’ mapped so far that
are in fact ‘dry swamps’. Note that the tag natural=mud  wiki
says “This tag should not be used for areas with intermittent
water cover which are water covered or completely dry most of
the time.” So this tagging is incorrect as they are dry most
of the time…


There are more in existence but not mapped.

Sample https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/
1143851993



Any thoughts?

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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Jez Nicholson]

The UK has plenty of areas around the coast that are deliberately not
protected by flood defences so they would soak up the power of an
intermittent flood. Are these a similar thing? They aren't wetlands as they
aren't wet all the time.

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023, 10:52 Warin, <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On 11/2/23 21:23, Jez Nicholson wrote:
>
> I see what you are saying, but 'dry swamp' feels slightly odd. Is there
> something like 'intermittent wetland' that is more appropriate?
>
>
> It is 'slightly odd' ... in that it is not found in populated parts of the
> globe.
>
> OSM tagging is written mostly by people in populated parts of the globe,
> so it suits those populated places. That is no ones fault, we all operate
> on the knowledge we have.
>
> Unfortunately 'dry swamps' exist and do not fit the definitions used in
> OSM exiting tags, 'wetlands' are wet.. not 'dry', 'swamps' are 'wet', even
> 'mud' is wet..
>
> OSM existing tags
>
> wetland = "A natural area subject to inundation or with waterlogged ground"
>
> Not water logged most of the time so does not fit... The 'inundation' is
> very seldom.
>
> swamp = "An area of waterlogged forest, with dense vegetation."
>
> Not water logged most of the time, not a forest, and not dense vegetation
>
> mud = "Area covered with mud: water saturated fine grained soil without
> significant plant growth"
>
> Again not water saturated most of the time.
>
>
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2023, 10:11 Warin, <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The ‘dry swamp’ has no apparent way to tag it. These will not be found in
>> Europe, just as you don’t find deserts there.
>>
>> They have occasional water, not seasonal, not yearly but, say, between 5
>> to 20 years they have water. As such they do not satisfy the OSM swamp
>> definitions at all.
>>
>> See https://theconversation.com/why-a-wetland-might-not-be-wet-103687
>> for more on their characteristics, at least in Australia. OSM has access to
>> a imagery source in Australia that maps them, so OSM has a legal source for
>> them. What is needed is a tag for them, say, ‘natural=dry_swamp’???
>>
>> There are ~ 4,000 of these ‘natural=mud’ mapped so far that are in fact
>> ‘dry swamps’. Note that the tag natural=mud  wiki says “This tag should not
>> be used for areas with intermittent water cover which are water covered or
>> completely dry most of the time.” So this tagging is incorrect as they are
>> dry most of the time…
>>
>>
>> There are more in existence but not mapped.
>>
>> Sample https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/
>> 1143851993
>> 
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Warin]

On 11/2/23 21:23, Jez Nicholson wrote:
I see what you are saying, but 'dry swamp' feels slightly odd. Is 
there something like 'intermittent wetland' that is more appropriate?



It is 'slightly odd' ... in that it is not found in populated parts of 
the globe.


OSM tagging is written mostly by people in populated parts of the globe, 
so it suits those populated places. That is no ones fault, we all 
operate on the knowledge we have.


Unfortunately 'dry swamps' exist and do not fit the definitions used in 
OSM exiting tags, 'wetlands' are wet.. not 'dry', 'swamps' are 'wet', 
even 'mud' is wet..


OSM existing tags

wetland = "A natural area subject to inundation or with waterlogged ground"

Not water logged most of the time so does not fit... The 'inundation' is 
very seldom.


swamp = "An area of waterlogged forest, with dense vegetation."

Not water logged most of the time, not a forest, and not dense vegetation

mud = "Area covered with mud: water saturated fine grained soil without 
significant plant growth"


Again not water saturated most of the time.



On Sat, 11 Feb 2023, 10:11 Warin, <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

The ‘dry swamp’ has no apparent way to tag it. These will not be
found in Europe, just as you don’t find deserts there.

They have occasional water, not seasonal, not yearly but, say,
between 5 to 20 years they have water. As such they do not satisfy
the OSM swamp definitions at all.

See
https://theconversation.com/why-a-wetland-might-not-be-wet-103687
for more on their characteristics, at least in Australia. OSM has
access to a imagery source in Australia that maps them, so OSM has
a legal source for them. What is needed is a tag for them, say,
‘natural=dry_swamp’???

There are ~ 4,000 of these ‘natural=mud’ mapped so far that are in
fact ‘dry swamps’. Note that the tag natural=mud  wiki says “This
tag should not be used for areas with intermittent water cover
which are water covered or completely dry most of the time.” So
this tagging is incorrect as they are dry most of the time…


There are more in existence but not mapped.

Sample https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/
1143851993



Any thoughts?

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Re: [Tagging] dry swamps

[Jez Nicholson]

I see what you are saying, but 'dry swamp' feels slightly odd. Is there
something like 'intermittent wetland' that is more appropriate?

On Sat, 11 Feb 2023, 10:11 Warin, <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The ‘dry swamp’ has no apparent way to tag it. These will not be found in
> Europe, just as you don’t find deserts there.
>
> They have occasional water, not seasonal, not yearly but, say, between 5
> to 20 years they have water. As such they do not satisfy the OSM swamp
> definitions at all.
>
> See https://theconversation.com/why-a-wetland-might-not-be-wet-103687 for
> more on their characteristics, at least in Australia. OSM has access to a
> imagery source in Australia that maps them, so OSM has a legal source for
> them. What is needed is a tag for them, say, ‘natural=dry_swamp’???
>
> There are ~ 4,000 of these ‘natural=mud’ mapped so far that are in fact
> ‘dry swamps’. Note that the tag natural=mud  wiki says “This tag should not
> be used for areas with intermittent water cover which are water covered or
> completely dry most of the time.” So this tagging is incorrect as they are
> dry most of the time…
>
>
> There are more in existence but not mapped.
>
> Sample https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/
> 1143851993
> 
>
>
> Any thoughts?
>
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[Tagging] dry swamps

[Warin]

The ‘dry swamp’ has no apparent way to tag it. These will not be found 
in Europe, just as you don’t find deserts there.


They have occasional water, not seasonal, not yearly but, say, between 5 
to 20 years they have water. As such they do not satisfy the OSM swamp 
definitions at all.


See https://theconversation.com/why-a-wetland-might-not-be-wet-103687 
for more on their characteristics, at least in Australia. OSM has access 
to a imagery source in Australia that maps them, so OSM has a legal 
source for them. What is needed is a tag for them, say, 
‘natural=dry_swamp’???


There are ~ 4,000 of these ‘natural=mud’ mapped so far that are in fact 
‘dry swamps’. Note that the tag natural=mud  wiki says “This tag should 
not be used for areas with intermittent water cover which are water 
covered or completely dry most of the time.” So this tagging is 
incorrect as they are dry most of the time…



There are more in existence but not mapped.

Sample https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/ 
1143851993 




Any thoughts?
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