Re: [Tagging] highspeed=yes
I agree with Dave. I cant see how highspeed=yes improves OSM. It has a very poor verifiability, which leads to unproductive disputes. It seems to me, it reflects most of the time a classification of the local railway operator. If a renderer chooses to show high-speed railways in a special way, it should base this on maxspeed or other verifiable tags mentioned earlier. BTW: Even maxspeed may be hard to verify and may be disputable in some cases. E. g. Gotthard Basistunnel and Lötschberg Basistunnel (mentioned earlier) are build and equipped for 280 kph, certified for 250 kph, tagged with 200kph and operation is limited to 180 kph for energy conservation. Cheers, Nzara Am 11.07.2017 um 12:53 schrieb Dave F: Struggling to see how this tag improves OSM. Surely it's the trains that are defined as highspeed? The speed of a track, in OSM, is defined by maxspeed tag. Even tracks designed to be straight & faster than alternatives have restricted speed sections. (It would be hard to stop at a station otherwise). DaveF ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highspeed=yes
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 07:01:55PM +0200, Michael Reichert wrote: Hi, > There are two open questions regarding the definition: > - What qualifies a track to have highspeed=yes? Minimum speed, curves, > type of traffic, fencing, train protection etc. are the relevant > factors. But it has not been decided yet which of them are relevant and > which are more important. > - If a track qualifies to have highspeed=yes, should the whole line > (including the slow sections at its beginning and end where it leaves > the older parts of the network or runs through existing stations) get > highspeed=yes? > > I would like to keep the discussion to the second question. I don't think you can answer the second question without answering the first. You could make an arbitrary decission about the second question of course but I don't think this would end discussions and also any decission about the second question limits the choices for answer #1. > > Presumably when exact speed limits will be mapped in the ideal case > > what is the use of this tag? > > Different countries define "high speed" different. In most countries > high speed traffic needs a more sophisticated train protection system. > The maximum speed of the less sophisticated train protection is often > but not always the border between "high speed" and "not high speed" > because the railway operators introduced the better train protection > system when they build their first high speed lines. > Countries with a large high speed network might set the limit higher > while countries with a smaller (or slower) one might set the limit > lower. The first one might be France, the second UK. Swiss railway staff > would experience 200 kph as fast (Olten—Bern, New Gotthard Tunnel). Do > we have fix definitions of highway=* all over Europe? No, we don't. Just > compare highway=trunk in UK with German highway=trunk. So basically you want a tag saying "this is considered highspeed locally"? Another aspect is the use of tilting trains. They are built to operate with speed considered highspeed on tracks which would be otherwise unsuitable for such speeds. Here highspeed=yes is too vague as it could mean any of highspeed tilting trains on curvy mountain railways or highspeed trains on dedicated tracks. > Map style authors are happy to render high speed network maps without > checking the location and the local definition of each line to be > rendered. The tag highspeed=yes is intended to be the extension of > usage=main/branch upwards. An early version of OpenRailwayMap tagging > scheme in 2011 suggested to use usage=highspeed but others argumented > that a high speed line is usually a main line. not a strong argument against usage=highspeed, a motorway is usually also a primary road and nobody complains. Imho this tag would be a good start. It says quite intuitively that the tracks are used (mainly) for high speed trains whatever that means locally. Actual speed limits and such can be mapped with existing separate tags. > The more vague a definition is, the more happy data consumers are if OSM > contributors do the classification. don't understand what you are saying here. > > Just to say that it is called "Hochgeschwindigkeitsstrekce" in German, > > or is there something more implied like special traffic rules, special > > signaling, freight train exclusion? > > Perhaps all this properties should be tagged in separately? > > Most of these properties are all tagged separately: > > - Train protection using railway:=yes/no [yes, this scheme > is not a well designed tagging scheme] > - Speed limit using maxspeed=* and maxspeed:*=* > - Usage is difficult to tag and derive from OSM. There is > railway:traffic_mode=freight/passenger/mixed but one regular freight > train is enough to use "mixed". Types of passenger trains (local vs. > InterCity vs. high speed) are mapped as route relations but then you > have to parse and understand ref=* because service=* is not mapped on > all route relations. Germany has a handful of real high speed lines (>= > 250 kph) which are used by local trains, too. again, the definition can be country specific and the more precise meaning could be refined with special tags. In most countries highspeed routes are reserved for special highspeed trains but exceptions exist. Think of motorways, in Vancouver BC they have (or used to have?) a bicycle lane. Omg.. there is no rule without exception. > - Fences are mapped as you would map them. It is difficult and not > effient to determine if a railway line is fenced. In addition, mappers > in rural areas have more important things to map than fences along a > railway line in the middle of nowhere. Btw, older high speed lines in > Germany are not fenced at all. I consider fences pretty important - as a hiker I tend to cross single and double railway tracks wherever I like - with the exception of high speed lines which I consider from somewhat hazardous to nearly impossible to cross
Re: [Tagging] highspeed=yes
Le 14. 07. 17 à 19:01, Michael Reichert a écrit : > - If a track qualifies to have highspeed=yes, should the whole line > (including the slow sections at its beginning and end where it leaves > the older parts of the network or runs through existing stations) get > highspeed=yes? If a line includes a "low speed" section and a "high speed" section, the tag on the line should depend on the average speed of the whole line. Regards, Marc ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highspeed=yes
sent from a phone > On 14. Jul 2017, at 19:01, Michael Reichert wrote: > > In addition, mappers > in rural areas have more important things to map than fences along a > railway line in the middle of nowhere. really? An uninterrupted fence going for many kilometers and cutting the whole area in 2 separated parts is not important? i agree with what you write about lines, but would see lines as kind of more abstract route relation, not just railway=rail on a way. the latter should not get a highspeed=yes tag if it is not highspeed. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highspeed=yes
Hi, sorry for the late response on the mailing list, I accidentially send the email only to Richard. Am 11.07.2017 um 10:49 schrieb Richard: > without a proper definition there is no way to resolve your dispute > and the tag is unverifyable and of limitted use as is. There are two open questions regarding the definition: - What qualifies a track to have highspeed=yes? Minimum speed, curves, type of traffic, fencing, train protection etc. are the relevant factors. But it has not been decided yet which of them are relevant and which are more important. - If a track qualifies to have highspeed=yes, should the whole line (including the slow sections at its beginning and end where it leaves the older parts of the network or runs through existing stations) get highspeed=yes? I would like to keep the discussion to the second question. Fliefy uses highspeed=yes for tracks with at least 200 kph. I agree with that. But other mappers disagreed when we discussed that in real life the last time. That was three years ago. There is a plenty of examples of potential highspeed=yes on not-so-fast tracks: - The stations Fulda, Kassel-Wilhelmshöhe and Göttingen (all along high speed line Würzburg–Hannover). Speed limit is about 100 to 140 kph for trains passing these stations intentionally. - The tracks at most junctions of the old and new railway line from Karlsruhe to Basel are part of the new high speed line. Where the two lines separate, the speed limit is 100 kph because these junctions are of temporary nature and they did not want to spend much money for expensive high speed points. Once the whole line is finished (in about 10 to 20 years), they will be removed. Btw, the speed limit on the old line is 160 kph and 250 kph on the new line. - The high speed line Leipzig–Nuremberg runs through Erfurt Central Station on its own tracks but with a speed limit much below 160 kph (outside the station and its surrounding 300 kph). - The Northeast Corridor between Washington and Boston has sections where the train is "slow" (changeset discussion I linked in my initial posting). Should all those junctions and stations and the other parts of the line get highspeed=yes although they are not suitable for high speeds? If yes, this would open a new discussion where the line should begin and end. Its a decision which is difficult or impossible to research *on* *the ground*. I would like to avoid that. > Presumably when exact speed limits will be mapped in the ideal case > what is the use of this tag? Different countries define "high speed" different. In most countries high speed traffic needs a more sophisticated train protection system. The maximum speed of the less sophisticated train protection is often but not always the border between "high speed" and "not high speed" because the railway operators introduced the better train protection system when they build their first high speed lines. Countries with a large high speed network might set the limit higher while countries with a smaller (or slower) one might set the limit lower. The first one might be France, the second UK. Swiss railway staff would experience 200 kph as fast (Olten—Bern, New Gotthard Tunnel). Do we have fix definitions of highway=* all over Europe? No, we don't. Just compare highway=trunk in UK with German highway=trunk. Map style authors are happy to render high speed network maps without checking the location and the local definition of each line to be rendered. The tag highspeed=yes is intended to be the extension of usage=main/branch upwards. An early version of OpenRailwayMap tagging scheme in 2011 suggested to use usage=highspeed but others argumented that a high speed line is usually a main line. The more vague a definition is, the more happy data consumers are if OSM contributors do the classification. > Just to say that it is called "Hochgeschwindigkeitsstrekce" in German, > or is there something more implied like special traffic rules, special > signaling, freight train exclusion? > Perhaps all this properties should be tagged in separately? Most of these properties are all tagged separately: - Train protection using railway:=yes/no [yes, this scheme is not a well designed tagging scheme] - Speed limit using maxspeed=* and maxspeed:*=* - Usage is difficult to tag and derive from OSM. There is railway:traffic_mode=freight/passenger/mixed but one regular freight train is enough to use "mixed". Types of passenger trains (local vs. InterCity vs. high speed) are mapped as route relations but then you have to parse and understand ref=* because service=* is not mapped on all route relations. Germany has a handful of real high speed lines (>= 250 kph) which are used by local trains, too. - Fences are mapped as you would map them. It is difficult and not effient to determine if a railway line is fenced. In addition, mappers in rural areas have more important things to map than fences along a railway line in the middle of nowhere. Btw, older high s
Re: [Tagging] highspeed=yes
2017-07-11 8:06 GMT+02:00 Michael Reichert : > > What is a "line" in osm tags? > > If you map a specific train connection (route=train) it would apply to > the whole thing, if you tag a piece of rail (route=railway or railway=rail) > I would only put it on those parts that are suitable for highspeed trains. > > Line in this context refers to all railway tracks between two stations > except sidings, yards, spurs etc. (i.e. all tracks which would get > usage=*). for the tracks it doesn't seem right to tag "highspeed" where it isn't highspeed, although it might be disputable which speed merits the term "highspeed", even the European guideline 96/48 names differents speeds, ranging from 200km/h via 250km/h to more than 300km/h (and it is from 1996). Later it was put to at least 190km/h. (Btw. more than 200km/h was already reached by trains in 1903 in experimental settings). Contrarily, it is much more interesting to see which parts of a claimed highspeed connection is actually not highspeed besides the train that runs (slowly) over it ;-) Highspeed implies technical safety measures (likely dependent on the Country / Region, i.e. legal requirements) regarding signalling and location determination (in Germany LZB), fenced off tracks, short blocks, etc. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highspeed=yes
Struggling to see how this tag improves OSM. Surely it's the trains that are defined as highspeed? The speed of a track, in OSM, is defined by maxspeed tag. Even tracks designed to be straight & faster than alternatives have restricted speed sections. (It would be hard to stop at a station otherwise). DaveF On 10/07/2017 22:42, Michael Reichert wrote: Hi, I have a small dispute with user flierfy about the usage of highspeed=yes and would like to ask for your opinions. [1] I think that highspeed=yes should only be use that tracks whose speed limit is above a certain minimum speed (On The Ground Rule). The speed might vary between countries. flierfy thinks that the whole railway line should be tagged from its beginning to its end if it contains one part which qualifies for highspeed=yes. Example: The railway line from Leipzig to Dresden clearly qualifies [2] for highspeed=yes between km 4.0 (near Leizig-Sellershausen) to km 23.8 (near Bennewitz) and from ~ 30.2 (between Wurzen and Kühren) to 59.6 (between Bornitz bei Oschatz and Riesa). Only on these two sections trains may run faster than 160 kph (limit is 200 kph there). Other sections have speed limits between 100 kph and 160 kph. Flierfy tagged the whole line with highspeed=yes. http://www.openrailwaymap.org/?lang=&lat=51.33372202647613&lon=13.089437484741211&zoom=13&style=standard The high speed line might be completed on one day in future but it will takes years, many years. The wiki pages Key:highspeed, DE:Key:highspeed and OpenRailwayMap/Tagging at OSM wiki do not mention whether the tag should be used for the whole line or only for the parts whose speed limit is "high". In difference, DE:OpenRailwayMap/Tagging has contained the additional sentence that the whole line should get highspeed=yes. That sentence was added by user rurseekatze on 2015-12-29 [3]. I don't remember a discussion about it on a mailing list. Fliefy refers in the changeset discussion between us to DE:OpenRailwayMap/Tagging. The definition of this tag was discussed on a meeting of railway mappers in Cologne in July 2014 but we did not find any consensus there and left it unmodified. In March 2015 a mapper attempted to add highspeed=yes to the Northeast Corridor from Washington to Boston. After 25 comments in the changeset discussion the tag was removed. https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/29723896 The main question is: Shold the whole line (the definition of "line" is a different discussion worth) get highspeed=yes or only the parts which are suitable for high speeds due to large curve radius, special signalling and train protection etc.? What is your opinion? Best regards Michael PS I invited fliefy to join this mailing list on Friday and waited with posting my question until today to be fair. [1] changeset discussion in German (just for reference): https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/50067730 [2] assuming that high speed in Germany means 200 kph or faster. Other countries might have other limits. [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=DE%3AOpenRailwayMap%2FTagging&type=revision&diff=1256039&oldid=1238373 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highspeed=yes
On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 11:42:23PM +0200, Michael Reichert wrote: > Hi, > > I have a small dispute with user flierfy about the usage of > highspeed=yes and would like to ask for your opinions. [1] > > I think that highspeed=yes should only be use that tracks whose speed > limit is above a certain minimum speed (On The Ground Rule). The speed > might vary between countries. > > flierfy thinks that the whole railway line should be tagged from its > beginning to its end if it contains one part which qualifies for > highspeed=yes. without a proper definition there is no way to resolve your dispute and the tag is unverifyable and of limitted use as is. Presumably when exact speed limits will be mapped in the ideal case what is the use of this tag? Just to say that it is called "Hochgeschwindigkeitsstrekce" in German, or is there something more implied like special traffic rules, special signaling, freight train exclusion? Perhaps all this properties should be tagged in separately? Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highspeed=yes
Hi Martin, Am 11.07.2017 um 01:27 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: >> On 10. Jul 2017, at 23:42, Michael Reichert wrote: >> >> The main question is: >> Shold the whole line (the definition of "line" is a different discussion >> worth) get highspeed=yes or only the parts which are suitable for high >> speeds due to large curve radius, special signalling and train >> protection etc.? What is your opinion? > > > What is a "line" in osm tags? > If you map a specific train connection (route=train) it would apply to the > whole thing, if you tag a piece of rail (route=railway or railway=rail) I > would only put it on those parts that are suitable for highspeed trains. Line in this context refers to all railway tracks between two stations except sidings, yards, spurs etc. (i.e. all tracks which would get usage=*). Best regards Michael -- Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten ausgenommen) I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] highspeed=yes
sent from a phone > On 10. Jul 2017, at 23:42, Michael Reichert wrote: > > The main question is: > Shold the whole line (the definition of "line" is a different discussion > worth) get highspeed=yes or only the parts which are suitable for high > speeds due to large curve radius, special signalling and train > protection etc.? What is your opinion? What is a "line" in osm tags? If you map a specific train connection (route=train) it would apply to the whole thing, if you tag a piece of rail (route=railway or railway=rail) I would only put it on those parts that are suitable for highspeed trains. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] highspeed=yes
Hi, I have a small dispute with user flierfy about the usage of highspeed=yes and would like to ask for your opinions. [1] I think that highspeed=yes should only be use that tracks whose speed limit is above a certain minimum speed (On The Ground Rule). The speed might vary between countries. flierfy thinks that the whole railway line should be tagged from its beginning to its end if it contains one part which qualifies for highspeed=yes. Example: The railway line from Leipzig to Dresden clearly qualifies [2] for highspeed=yes between km 4.0 (near Leizig-Sellershausen) to km 23.8 (near Bennewitz) and from ~ 30.2 (between Wurzen and Kühren) to 59.6 (between Bornitz bei Oschatz and Riesa). Only on these two sections trains may run faster than 160 kph (limit is 200 kph there). Other sections have speed limits between 100 kph and 160 kph. Flierfy tagged the whole line with highspeed=yes. http://www.openrailwaymap.org/?lang=&lat=51.33372202647613&lon=13.089437484741211&zoom=13&style=standard The high speed line might be completed on one day in future but it will takes years, many years. The wiki pages Key:highspeed, DE:Key:highspeed and OpenRailwayMap/Tagging at OSM wiki do not mention whether the tag should be used for the whole line or only for the parts whose speed limit is "high". In difference, DE:OpenRailwayMap/Tagging has contained the additional sentence that the whole line should get highspeed=yes. That sentence was added by user rurseekatze on 2015-12-29 [3]. I don't remember a discussion about it on a mailing list. Fliefy refers in the changeset discussion between us to DE:OpenRailwayMap/Tagging. The definition of this tag was discussed on a meeting of railway mappers in Cologne in July 2014 but we did not find any consensus there and left it unmodified. In March 2015 a mapper attempted to add highspeed=yes to the Northeast Corridor from Washington to Boston. After 25 comments in the changeset discussion the tag was removed. https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/29723896 The main question is: Shold the whole line (the definition of "line" is a different discussion worth) get highspeed=yes or only the parts which are suitable for high speeds due to large curve radius, special signalling and train protection etc.? What is your opinion? Best regards Michael PS I invited fliefy to join this mailing list on Friday and waited with posting my question until today to be fair. [1] changeset discussion in German (just for reference): https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/50067730 [2] assuming that high speed in Germany means 200 kph or faster. Other countries might have other limits. [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=DE%3AOpenRailwayMap%2FTagging&type=revision&diff=1256039&oldid=1238373 -- Per E-Mail kommuniziere ich bevorzugt GPG-verschlüsselt. (Mailinglisten ausgenommen) I prefer GPG encryption of emails. (does not apply on mailing lists) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
