Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[yo paseopor]

I would use side=left/right/both as I use for mark the position of a
traffic sign. This position is relative to the direction the way was drawn
in OSM (like rivers)

yopaseopor

On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 4:17 PM André Pirard 
wrote:

> On 2018-10-13 11:22, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
> 12. Oct 2018 09:25 by gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com:
>
> In November 2015 I fix nearly all such ways, since then the number
> increased again to 488. I don't know about iD, but JOSM prints a warning
> when you use this tagging, still many edits were made with JOSM. I wonder
> if that means that we should accept highway=crossing as a shortcut for
> highway=footway + footway=crossing?
>
> I once opened a thread saying that the term "crossing" is contradictory
> with "passage pour piétons".
> The English term restrictively suggests being perpendicular to the road
> and is tagged on a node.
> The French concept covers zebras that are drawn on & along -- e.g. half of
> -- the road, is tagged on the highway on which the passage runs, and they
> do exist. Unanswered problem: how to tag which side of the road the paint
> is on.
> That feature meaning a place where pedestrians can walk safely, even a
> full area applies.
>
> The answers were typical of "tagging for the renderer", e.g. disguising
> sidewalks as being on the road.
>
> How do we tag that without being "fixed"?
>
> All the best,
>
> André.
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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[André Pirard]

On 2018-10-13 11:22, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
12. Oct 2018 09:25 by gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com 
:


In November 2015 I fix nearly all such ways, since then the number
increased again to 488. I don't know about iD, but JOSM prints a
warning
when you use this tagging, still many edits were made with JOSM. I
wonder if that means that we should accept highway=crossing as a
shortcut for highway=footway + footway=crossing?

I once opened a thread saying that the term "crossing" is contradictory 
with "passage pour piétons".
The English term restrictively suggests being perpendicular to the road 
and is tagged on a node.
The French concept covers zebras that are drawn on & along -- e.g. half 
of -- the road, is tagged on the highway on which the passage runs, and 
they do exist. Unanswered problem: how to tag which side of the road the 
paint is on.
That feature meaning a place where pedestrians can walk safely, even a 
full area applies.


The answers were typical of "tagging for the renderer", e.g. disguising 
sidewalks as being on the road.


How do we tag that without being "fixed"?

All the best,

André.


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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[Allroads]

As I used it

On a node:
highway=crossing
This only say not so much, it could be also unmarked,  crossing with a 
value.

Mostly I tag a crossing_ref.

Footway:
On a way:
highway=footway
footway=crossing
crossing=uncontrolled or else, this is for the whole crossing.
(crossing=island can not be used, you can only use crossing once)
if there is in the middle a crossing island, that little part, where
pedestrian could wait, often there is a traffic light for pedestrian,
tag crossing:island=yes
but on this little part there can not be a crossing_ref=zebra

That part as a polygon area
area:highway=footway
cycleway=crossing
crossing=uncontrolled
crossing:island=yes
The last 3 tags could be retrieved from the way!

Cycleway:
On a way:
highway=cycleway
crossing=uncontrolled or else
if there is in the middle a crossing island, that little part, where cyclist
could wait. often there is a traffic light for bicycle ( more wider busy
road),
tag crossing:island=yes

That part as a polygon area
area:highway=cycleway
cycleway=crossing
crossing=uncontrolled
crossing:island=yes
The last 3 tags could be retrieved from the way!

Path:
highway=path
path=crossing
crossing=uncontrolled or else
if there is in the middle a crossing island, that little part, where
pedestrian could wait. often there is a traffic light for pedestrian,
tag crossing:island=yes
but on this little part there can not be crossing:ref=zebra

That part as a polygon area
area:highway=path
cycleway=crossing
crossing=uncontrolled
crossing:island=yes
The last 3 tags could be retrieved from the way!

The other parts, where you do not walk/ride/drive.
area:highway=traffic_island for the areas.
On the polygon way barrier=kerb  with no area=yes ( this should mean that
the whole island is a kerb, it is not).

Greetings
Allroads

From: Gerd Petermann
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 7:24 AM
To: Tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

I think I found one reason for the mistagged ways. The wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dtraffic_island
proposes to use highway=crossing + crossing=island to map a traffic island.
It says that this should be used on nodes but a mapper looking for a
replacement of a landuse tag might miss that.
It also claims to show numbers from taginfo for this combination, but in
fact it shows the numbers for
just crossing=island:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=crossing=island
This tag can be used on ways, together with e.g. footway=crossing, but that
would not be used to map the area of the traffic island.

AFAIK taginfo doesn't allow to ask for tag combinations. No idea if this
occurs on other wiki pages, if so,
it is very misleading.

I think the said wiki page should be changed so that highway=crossing is not
mentioned at all.

Gerd



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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 16. Okt. 2018 um 11:26 Uhr schrieb Gerd Petermann <
gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com>:

>
> Do you also have an example how to map the area of islands which are just
> paint (hatched)?



seems people are using area:highway=traffic_island or shoulder, there is
also "prohibited" (~200) and "hatched" (10)
.https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/area:highway

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[Gerd Petermann]

dieterdreist wrote
> you could map the kerbs and create a multipolygon pedestrian area or grass
> areas etc, for the island with the kerbs as outers. There is also
> barrier=guard_rail and barrier=fence for potential barriers. The road will
> be split into a dual carriageway and both are connected with the crossing
> (if any). Crossings can be mapped as footways with footway=crossing. It is
> just so tedious for something as interesting as a traffic island, that
> many
> people do not care ;-)
> 
> You do not have to map the area, but you can if you like.

Do you also have an example how to map the area of islands which are just
paint (hatched)?



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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 16. Okt. 2018 um 10:53 Uhr schrieb Gerd Petermann <
gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com>:

> Warin wrote
> > I note there is no wiki guidance on tagging a traffic island in detail,
> > such as this island that
> > spatially separates entry and exit. This is not uncommon where I am.
>
>

you could map the kerbs and create a multipolygon pedestrian area or grass
areas etc, for the island with the kerbs as outers. There is also
barrier=guard_rail and barrier=fence for potential barriers. The road will
be split into a dual carriageway and both are connected with the crossing
(if any). Crossings can be mapped as footways with footway=crossing. It is
just so tedious for something as interesting as a traffic island, that many
people do not care ;-)

You do not have to map the area, but you can if you like.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[Gerd Petermann]

Warin wrote
> I note there is no wiki guidance on tagging a traffic island in detail,
> such as this island that
> spatially separates entry and exit. This is not uncommon where I am.

Yes, I think this is really a problem. A lot of mappers seem to want to map
the area of the island, 
others want to map the effects on traffic/routing, again others try to do
both, with one or more OSM objects.

Unfortunately most approved tags are only meant to map the effects on
traffic/routing, therefore mappers either invent new tags or abuse the
approved ones for the area. I think this was already discussed in the past,
but without any good results so far.

Gerd



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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[Warin]

On 16/10/18 16:24, Gerd Petermann wrote:


I think I found one reason for the mistagged ways. The wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dtraffic_island
proposes to use highway=crossing + crossing=island to map a traffic island.
It says that this should be used on nodes but a mapper looking for a
replacement of a landuse tag might miss that.
It also claims to show numbers from taginfo for this combination, but in
fact it shows the numbers for
just crossing=island:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=crossing=island
This tag can be used on ways, together with e.g. footway=crossing, but that
would not be used to map the area of the traffic island.

AFAIK taginfo doesn't allow to ask for tag combinations. No idea if this
occurs on other wiki pages, if so,
it is very misleading.

I think the said wiki page should be changed so that highway=crossing is not
mentioned at all.


What a mess.
landuse .. should be used for large areas.. such as landuse=residential.
Landuse=highway could be used,
that would cover the traffic island, road and footpath and the road verge.

--
An example of a traffic island?
Here is a 'traffic island' ... it is an overlayed way that is in the data base 
see
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/584316766#map=19/-37.60324/145.11787

I note there is no wiki guidance on tagging a traffic island in detail, such as 
this island that
spatially separates entry and exit. This is not uncommon where I am.

I also note that traffic island is not part of the approval .. so this is an 
addition that is not approved.

I have no solution as to how to map this in an easy way.


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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[Gerd Petermann]

I think I found one reason for the mistagged ways. The wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dtraffic_island
proposes to use highway=crossing + crossing=island to map a traffic island.
It says that this should be used on nodes but a mapper looking for a
replacement of a landuse tag might miss that.
It also claims to show numbers from taginfo for this combination, but in
fact it shows the numbers for 
just crossing=island:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=crossing=island
This tag can be used on ways, together with e.g. footway=crossing, but that
would not be used to map the area of the traffic island.

AFAIK taginfo doesn't allow to ask for tag combinations. No idea if this
occurs on other wiki pages, if so,
it is very misleading.

I think the said wiki page should be changed so that highway=crossing is not
mentioned at all.

Gerd



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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[marc marc]

Le 15. 10. 18 à 08:25, Gerd Petermann a écrit :
> seems someone has
> fixed a few since my last post:-)  )

yes I took the opportunity of your message to look at the cases
in France and Switzerland.
I corrected about 40 of them, there were:
- real pedestrian crossings but a lot of not connected to the road,
not connected to the sidewalks when they are shown separately.
- the area of a multi-lanes junction mapped as a polygon
- some false path to force routing between a bike path and a road across 
a green strip (somethink like "a cyclist 'll dismount at this location 
to cross the grass and reach the other street to avoid a detour)
- some of them unrelated to all above.

Maybe several ergonomic/preset problems in the editors, but since the 
majority of them were more than a year old, I preferred to correct
them without conducting the inquiry among the various contributors.
The most useful thing seems to watch for new case and discuss
with the contributor as soon as possible when it happend.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[Gerd Petermann]

Mateusz Konieczny-3 wrote
> How many highway=crossing on ways were added since  November 2015?
> How many highway=crossing on nodes were added since  November 2015?
> Without that it is hard to say anything.

I agree that those are the important questions. I have some old taginfo data
from 2015.
On 2015-11-20 Taginfo showed 1654419 nodes, for today (2018-10-15) it shows
2791166.
On 2015-11-20 it showed only 2 ways, today is says 465 (seems someone has
fixed a few since my last post :-) )


I think another important number is how many ways with highway=footway +
footway=crossing
where added. I don't have the number for 2015, today overpass counts 568611.

So, I agree that the number of wrongly tagged ways is small compared to the
number of nodes or ways with (hopefully) correct tags, I just don't
understand why so many different mappers all over the world use the wrong
tagging. Once I found a bug in an iD template, but that was fixed soon after
I reported it.

I'll try to find out if there are more such bad templates...






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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[Mateusz Konieczny]

12. Oct 2018 09:25 by gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com 
:

> In November 2015 I fix nearly all such ways, since then the number increased 
> again to 488. I don't know about iD, but JOSM prints a warning
> when you use this tagging, still many edits were made with JOSM. I wonder if 
> that means that we should accept highway=crossing as a shortcut for 
> highway=footway + footway=crossing?
>







How many highway=crossing on ways were added since  November 2015?




How many highway=crossing on nodes were added since  November 2015?




Without that it is hard to say anything.

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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[marc marc]

On 12.10.2018 09:25, Gerd Petermann wrote:
>> In November 2015 I fix nearly all such ways, since then the number increased 
>> again to 488. 

the best is to first try to understand where it comes from: look for 
recent cases, check the editor tag, ask the user how/why he chose this

 >> I wonder if that means that we should accept highway=crossing as a 
shortcut for highway=footway + footway=crossing?

it look like a bad idea (but I also dislike using footway for way 
without any foot-only traffic sign).
I agree that i'ts an error and thanks for the cleanup
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Re: [Tagging] highway=crossing used on ways

[Tobias Knerr]

On 12.10.2018 09:25, Gerd Petermann wrote:
> In November 2015 I fix nearly all such ways, since then the number increased 
> again to 488. I don't know about iD, but JOSM prints a warning
> when you use this tagging, still many edits were made with JOSM. I wonder if 
> that means that we should accept highway=crossing as a shortcut for 
> highway=footway + footway=crossing?

The highway=crossing tag has been used 2787469 times, according to
Taginfo. So these 488 occurrences on ways don't even represent a tenth
of a percent of the tag's total uses. I don't think this is a strong
reason to change the tag's definition.

Having some amount of "noise" in the data is one of the downsides we
accept with our open tagging model, and in my experience, you will find
a similar amount of non-standard uses, misspellings and other errors for
most tags. However, it's still beneficial to clean up every now and
then, so thank you for your past efforts to fix the errors in the
database and improve the documentation! And it's encouraging to hear
that JOSM validator catches this kind of problem, I hope other editors
will also eventually add more error-checking tools.

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