Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-23 14:38 GMT+01:00 Stefano :

> Hello,
> I just tried and Marinetraffic (probably the only -or one of the few-
> consumer in the field) seems to handle only industrial=port in their custom
> maps.
> Does a totally new key have benefits?
>


I believe there are some benefits, not the least systematics and
findability. Something as important, frequent and big as a port should have
a prominent tag, like similar features. Nobody would ever come to the idea
to look in the subkeys of a landuse for such a feature (unless you use the
wiki search maybe).

Landuse is not suitable for several reasons (I don't say we can't have a
landuse subtype for industrial ports, it simply shouldn't be the only way
to map a port, it's rather a way to specify the kind of industrial landuse):
- landuses require a polygon in order to map them
- landuses are not necessarily features, they are rather a property of land
(about the current usage), which can have features on it, e.g. houses. See
them like surface=paved.
- there can be several landuse polygons for one port, also with different
values potentially.
...

Clearly, there isn't any comprehensive scheme now to map a port, most of
marine related features are in the specialist field of the seamark
namespace, which really is not integrated well, it's more like a parallel
universe within OSM, until lately they even had a parallel scheme for many
things for which there were already established tags in OSM, like a
restaurant or a shop, and I also believe although I am not sure, that their
main concern is water navigation for leisure, hence the missing industrial
ports (but there is for leisure=marina).

At this point, looking at other key namespaces for transportation in OSM, I
think seaway is a logical extension to the whole scheme. Railways have
their stations, aeroways their aerodromes and highways their bus stops and
service areas. We might even think of migrating those tags from the seamark
namespace that deal with marine related stuff that isn't actually a
"seamark" in any way, i.e. infrastructure related to the navigation at sea,
if people want to do it, obviously.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Stefano]

Hello,
I just tried and Marinetraffic (probably the only -or one of the few-
consumer in the field) seems to handle only industrial=port in their custom
maps.
Does a totally new key have benefits?

Stefano

2017-02-23 1:52 GMT+01:00 John Willis :

>
>
>
> Javbw
> On Feb 22, 2017, at 10:13 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
> If you want more detail about the port (typology / properties), please
> explain what should be added (you'll likely know better then me what you
> need, as you have many of them).
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Seaway
>
>
> I will read up on what is mappable currently and compare to features I
> have seen that are mappable - all of these little towns have similar
> infrastructure for many 10m fishing boats, and additional infrastructure
> for larger 20-30m boats in some places.
>
> The one thing I need to check on is... a boat "pull-out" area. It is not a
> dock/pier and not a boat launch. Launches are for cars to get boats off
> their trailer, and mappable for people to know where to take their boat to
> get it into/out of a body of water. These pull-out areas are long stretches
> of (concrete) shoreline dedicated to pulling small and medium sized boats
> out of the water for parking /maintenance for smaller little boats. I'm
> sure in other countries where there is less infrastructure, this is just a
> beach or shoreline, but these are purpose-built and dedicated features.
> Maybe there is an existing key, but this is a common feature for tiny
> fishing villages I would like to map, like this one (my picture).
>
> https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/javbw/11091200666/in/set-72157638113676925/
>
> I know these are small things for small villages, and mapping for a big
> intermodal container ports is more important, but there are more of these
> little places to map overall.
>
> Javbw
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Feb 22, 2017, at 10:13 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> If you want more detail about the port (typology / properties), please 
> explain what should be added (you'll likely know better then me what you 
> need, as you have many of them).
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Seaway

I will read up on what is mappable currently and compare to features I have 
seen that are mappable - all of these little towns have similar infrastructure 
for many 10m fishing boats, and additional infrastructure for larger 20-30m 
boats in some places. 

The one thing I need to check on is... a boat "pull-out" area. It is not a 
dock/pier and not a boat launch. Launches are for cars to get boats off their 
trailer, and mappable for people to know where to take their boat to get it 
into/out of a body of water. These pull-out areas are long stretches of 
(concrete) shoreline dedicated to pulling small and medium sized boats out of 
the water for parking /maintenance for smaller little boats. I'm sure in other 
countries where there is less infrastructure, this is just a beach or 
shoreline, but these are purpose-built and dedicated features. Maybe there is 
an existing key, but this is a common feature for tiny fishing villages I would 
like to map, like this one (my picture). 

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/javbw/11091200666/in/set-72157638113676925/

I know these are small things for small villages, and mapping for a big 
intermodal container ports is more important, but there are more of these 
little places to map overall. 

Javbw 



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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 22 Feb 2017, at 20:52, Mark Wagner  wrote:
> 
> River.  It's got facilities for handling bulk cargo, containerized
> cargo, oil, and natural gas.  It's got at least two cruise-line
> terminals, three public marinas, a number of sightseeing-cruise docks,
> one ferry dock (cars and passengers), at least one ro-ro dock for
> trains, a coast-guard station, facilities to handle things like
> airplane parts being shipped to Boeing, and I'm sure there's at least
> one fish-processing plant in there somewhere.  There are at least two
> drydocks, support docks for various specialist ships, what looks like a
> gas station for freighters, and similar facilities.
> 
> A modern industrial port is a very complicated place


yes, I agree. There is typically also a concentration of landbased 
infrastructure like railways and motorways.

The presence of all these different ports and functions close to each other 
doesn't invalidate the proposal IMHO. you wouldn't want to draw a big blob 
somewhere with i-can-handle-everything =yes tags, but would rather want 
distinct entities for these (independent) functional parts.

thank you for pointing out I have missed gas cargo so far.

Regarding the fish processing plant: would you consider it part of the fishing 
port? Or is it an industrial area, somehow related, close to the fishing port? 

cheers,
Martin 






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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Mark Wagner]

On Wed, 22 Feb 2017 16:17:12 +0100
Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> 2017-02-22 15:01 GMT+01:00 Malcolm Herring
> :
> 
> > In general ports are not of singular usage. Some shipping services
> > may terminate at a particular port, but others may not. There may
> > also be differing service types carried on at one port.
> >
> > Therefore any attribute tags must allow for multiple values.
> >  
> 
> 
> OK, I was not sure, so I will change the cargo port types to several
> cargo handling capability tags (I had this already in mind, although
> the pictures I had looked at seemed to refer to quite specialized
> facilities). Is this applying to cruise ship / ferries as well? Are
> there fishing ports which also have cruise ships or ferries leaving /
> arriving? I haven't seen this so far, but my experiences with ports
> are somehow limited.
> 
> Maybe we could also have some capacity tags here? Like the maximum
> cargo / passengers a port is able to handle in a given time?
> 
> Are there mixed cargo / passenger ports? Of course you might find them
> close to each other, but wouldn't it make sense to map 2 ports in
> these cases, one for cargo and one for passengers?

Estimating from aerial photos, the Port of Seattle stretches along
about six miles of waterfront plus another five miles of the Duwamish
River.  It's got facilities for handling bulk cargo, containerized
cargo, oil, and natural gas.  It's got at least two cruise-line
terminals, three public marinas, a number of sightseeing-cruise docks,
one ferry dock (cars and passengers), at least one ro-ro dock for
trains, a coast-guard station, facilities to handle things like
airplane parts being shipped to Boeing, and I'm sure there's at least
one fish-processing plant in there somewhere.  There are at least two
drydocks, support docks for various specialist ships, what looks like a
gas station for freighters, and similar facilities.

A modern industrial port is a very complicated place.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Malcolm Herring]

In the port area where I live, fishing, ferries, cruises, general 
cargoes, oil and gas terminals, ship repairs, offshore support, wind 
turbine construction & shipment are all handled.



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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-22 15:01 GMT+01:00 Malcolm Herring :

> In general ports are not of singular usage. Some shipping services may
> terminate at a particular port, but others may not. There may also be
> differing service types carried on at one port.
>
> Therefore any attribute tags must allow for multiple values.
>


OK, I was not sure, so I will change the cargo port types to several cargo
handling capability tags (I had this already in mind, although the pictures
I had looked at seemed to refer to quite specialized facilities). Is this
applying to cruise ship / ferries as well? Are there fishing ports which
also have cruise ships or ferries leaving / arriving? I haven't seen this
so far, but my experiences with ports are somehow limited.

Maybe we could also have some capacity tags here? Like the maximum cargo /
passengers a port is able to handle in a given time?

Are there mixed cargo / passenger ports? Of course you might find them
close to each other, but wouldn't it make sense to map 2 ports in these
cases, one for cargo and one for passengers?

Cheers,
Martin

PS: can we please continue in the RFC thread of the proposal? Thank you.
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Malcolm Herring]

On 22/02/2017 13:13, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

What I haven't decided yet is whether to propose using a property like
seaway:terminal
=yes
to distinguish terminals (route endpoints) from other ports, or if we
use different main tags like this:
seaway=ferry_port or seaway=ferry_terminal


In general ports are not of singular usage. Some shipping services may 
terminate at a particular port, but others may not. There may also be 
differing service types carried on at one port.


Therefore any attribute tags must allow for multiple values.


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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-22 13:26 GMT+01:00 John Willis :

> Whenever this seaway key is "done" - please make a tagging example for
> ports and "fishing ports" with lots of detail - besides massive port
> facilities everyone knows about, I visit a lot of rural costal Japanese
> towns for taking pictures, which are usually built around a small "public"
> port facility, with modern breakwaters made recently after the big Tsunami
> - mapping the small ports correctly would be fun.



basically just draw the outline and add seaway=fishing_port, name=* etc. to
the object. If you can't draw the outline, use a node.
If you want more detail about the port (typology / properties), please
explain what should be added (you'll likely know better then me what you
need, as you have many of them).

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Seaway


What I haven't decided yet is whether to propose using a property like
seaway:terminal

=yes
to distinguish terminals (route endpoints) from other ports, or if we use
different main tags like this:
seaway=ferry_port or seaway=ferry_terminal


Second question: does it make sense to state something like "home port" or
"port of call" for cruise ports?


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 22, 2017, at 9:02 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> I also see these features, and there is already tagging available for many of 
> them (see the harbour page), but I wouldn't choose "landuse" for the feature.

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting a landuse. I was saying that this landuse being 
discussed (landuse=industrial + whatever) on the land, along with the 
waterway/seamark features on water would be encompassed by a larger polygon 
with the seaway=port* representing the entire "port" "area-use". 

(*whatever key=value that ends up being) 

Whenever this seaway key is "done" - please make a tagging example for ports 
and "fishing ports" with lots of detail - besides massive port facilities 
everyone knows about, I visit a lot of rural costal Japanese towns for taking 
pictures, which are usually built around a small "public" port facility, with 
modern breakwaters made recently after the big Tsunami - mapping the small 
ports correctly would be fun. 

Javbw 
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-22 0:57 GMT+01:00 John Willis :

> I can see, similar to an airport, there are runways, taxiways, terminals,
> supporting buildings, and plane parking positions that together make a
> singularly named landuse called "an airport".



I also see these features, and there is already tagging available for many
of them (see the harbour page), but I wouldn't choose "landuse" for the
feature. A port can also consist of different landuses for example. We
don't have airports or trainstations defined by landuse either...

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[John Willis]

Javbw
> On Feb 22, 2017, at 2:12 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> seaway=port ?

Much like a beach is where the land meets the sea, it is both water and land- 
is the seaway the area, both land *and* the dedicated water area - perhaps the 
area protected behind a breakwater or the area around piers and loading docks? 

Is the industrial dock area some variant of landuse=industrial or similar 
discussed here (a singularly named shipping terminal would have huge areas of 
land for rail spurs/road/ container storage) and the water area some 
seaway/waterway tag for the ship parking area and the combination of the two 
this new seaway=*port tag? I can see, similar to an airport, there are runways, 
taxiways, terminals, supporting buildings, and plane parking positions that 
together make a singularly named landuse called "an airport". 

(*i forget the exact tag name). 

Javbw 
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-21 16:31 GMT+01:00 Malcolm Herring :

> Agreed, but not "man_made", which I think should only used on singular
> objects. A port is much like a small town or an industrial park.



a town is also treated as a singular object in place=town (or an airport in
aeroway=aerodrome), it's clear that ports are made of many things, but
that's not a problem, you can still identify the one port obect (with its
name, etc.).
What about

seaway=port ?

Or maybe distinguish the types at this level? Container and passenger
terminals could be tagged as:

seaway=container_terminal
seaway=ferry_terminal
seaway=cruise_terminal

waterway=port   could describe an inland port (river or lake), although I
am not sure it is needed (can also be seen from the location).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Malcolm Herring]

On 21/02/2017 08:45, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

IMHO there should be a feature tag for ports (e.g. man_made=port) not just an 
indirect way of mapping landuse properties.


Agreed, but not "man_made", which I think should only used on singular 
objects. A port is much like a small town or an industrial park. May I 
suggest "port=*", where the default value would be "yes" and specific 
values would specify the type of port (container, passenger, etc.).



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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21 Feb 2017, at 08:16, Malcolm Herring  
> wrote:
> 
> Most of the instances of "landuse=harbour" are over areas that are in fact 
> port facilities. Other port areas tend to be tagged "landuse=industrial".
> 
> Maybe someone can propose a port specific tagging?


IMHO there should be a feature tag for ports (e.g. man_made=port) not just an 
indirect way of mapping landuse properties.

It would also lead to more semantical clarity renaming seamark to sth like 
seaway for everything that isn't a seamark

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Stefano]

2017-02-21 8:16 GMT+01:00 Malcolm Herring :

> On 20/02/2017 20:14, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>> agreed, the wiki page titled 'Harbour' gives an overview of both, maybe
>> the page should be renamed
>>
>
> I could rename it "Harbours and Ports" and add text to cover ports, but
> first I need some agreed tagging for ports. That was the question asked in
> the OP. Most of the instances of "landuse=harbour" are over areas that are
> in fact port facilities. Other port areas tend to be tagged
> "landuse=industrial".
>
> Maybe someone can propose a port specific tagging?


I use already my proposal, I haven't migrated to the correct page, but it's
here
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dport

Ciao,
Stefano



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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Malcolm Herring]

PS: I was going to propose "landuse=port" as an obvious choice.


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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Malcolm Herring]

On 20/02/2017 20:14, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

agreed, the wiki page titled 'Harbour' gives an overview of both, maybe the 
page should be renamed


I could rename it "Harbours and Ports" and add text to cover ports, but 
first I need some agreed tagging for ports. That was the question asked 
in the OP. Most of the instances of "landuse=harbour" are over areas 
that are in fact port facilities. Other port areas tend to be tagged 
"landuse=industrial".


Maybe someone can propose a port specific tagging?


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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 20 Feb 2017, at 18:15, Malcolm Herring  
> wrote:
> 
> Ports and harbours are not the same thing. A harbour is merely a sheltered 
> body of water protected by man made or natural structures. A port, on the 
> other hand, is the whole infrastructure for handling ships & their cargoes.


agreed, the wiki page titled 'Harbour' gives an overview of both, maybe the 
page should be renamed 


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Malcolm Herring]

Ports and harbours are not the same thing. A harbour is merely a 
sheltered body of water protected by man made or natural structures. A 
port, on the other hand, is the whole infrastructure for handling ships 
& their cargoes. This may include any number of harbour areas, but also 
wharves, piers, docks, quays, warehouses, terminal buildings, admin & 
customs offices, etc.


So such areas would be better served with a 'port' tag of some kind.


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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-20 16:58 GMT+01:00 :

> I can't find any ports in my OSM data. I'm afraid I just forgot to add
> this tag in styles when import.
> Anyway, what is the correct way to get ports?
>



I would have expected them in man_made but apparently they are "hidden" in
seamark subtags, a few hundred landuses (also: harbour) and under
"harbour=yes".
Here's an overview: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Harbour

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[Nelson A. de Oliveira]

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 12:58 PM,   wrote:
> I can't find any ports in my OSM data. I'm afraid I just forgot to add this
> tag in styles when import.
> Anyway, what is the correct way to get ports?

They are "harbours"
You can take a look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Harbour

Also, we have a local community here in Brazil, which you may also like to join.
See http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Pt:Contact

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[Tagging] landuse=industrial with industrial=port

[magno . abreu]

 I can't find any ports in my OSM data. I'm afraid I just forgot to add this tag in styles when import.Anyway, what is the correct way to get ports?In openstreetmap.org I can't find them too but I don't know if the port was just not added yet.This is the Rio de Janeiro port. When I query this area I can't get any indications of a port there.https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/-22.8789/-43.2068=NPort of Santos (São Paulo, Brazil): No port too.https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/597311#map=15/-23.9656/-46.2833=NThanks."Marinha do Brasil, protegendo nossas riquezas, cuidando da nossa gente"

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