Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/9/8 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net:
 At 2010-09-07 20:28, John F. Eldredge wrote:

 Other arrangements are common as well, such as duplexes (buildings holding
 two households); the same property owner owns both halves of the building,
 and the land underneath both; he or she may live in one half and rent out
 the other half, or may rent out both halves.

 Yup. You'd think I'd have not missed that one, having grown up in a duplex.
 :)

 It seems, really, that this is a special case of a house, since people do
 the same with their houses (rent out part). Or maybe it's an apartment
 building (with only two units). My limited experience is that they are built
 more like houses/townhomes. I wouldn't be averse to adding
 housing_type=duplex for these. Are there tri-, quad-, etc. plexes?


It is a own case (duplex), there are also triplex (but they are rare
and might be considered a special case). I'm not familiar with the
housing typology in the US but I'd expect terraced houses to exist as
well, e.g. in San Francisco.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Erik Johansson]

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 12:12 AM, Alan Mintz
alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote:
 At 2010-09-04 09:12, Erik Johansson wrote:

 I would like to tag areas with apartment buildings, and small houses
 for a  single family differently, at the moment I tag all of them with
  landuse=residential. I need good terminology in english to tag them.

 type=site
 + site=housing
 + housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}

 Here's an example of apartment:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/194049 at
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=34.079189lon=-117.560582zoom=18layers=Mrelation=194049

Thanks housing is a better term, here are some questions:

Is it possible to separate your category into physical and legal
status? All I want to do is separate houses/villas from apartment
buildings. I don't know how to spot the differences of different type
of housing tenures, it's only a legal difference between condominium,
housing cooperative and public housing.

But wikipedia is very vague on this subject so I think it's pretty
hard to be able to get good terminology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_building_types#Residential_Buildings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_tenure

/emj

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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/9/8 Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com:

 But wikipedia is very vague on this subject so I think it's pretty
 hard to be able to get good terminology.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_building_types#Residential_Buildings
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_tenure


have a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_house_types

I posted this already. It is not vague, it is unstructured. As I said above:
The usual building types for residential houses are:
- single house (detached house)
- semi-detached house (duplex)
- terraced house
- apartment building (block of flats) / condominium

public housing is not about typology, mobile home probably is, but I
don't know what sense there is to tag it, as it has no place (it is
mobile).

Again: these are types for houses as mentioned above. They are not
types of urban structure (but may imply the latter according to local
habits/culture).

There are also mixed use houses, in Germany we call this Wohn- und
Geschäftshaus, which is residential and commercial building. And
last there are also special cases like the experiments of Le
Corbusier: 
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Cite_Radieuse_5.jpgfiletimestamp=20090116135543
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Briey_unite_d_habitation.jpg
which were intended to be small cities in one building and they have
shops in the middle (7th and 8th floor AFAIR).


cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Alan Mintz]

At 2010-09-08 01:37, Erik Johansson wrote:

On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 12:12 AM, Alan Mintz
alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net wrote:
 At 2010-09-04 09:12, Erik Johansson wrote:

 I would like to tag areas with apartment buildings, and small houses
 for a  single family differently, at the moment I tag all of them with
  landuse=residential. I need good terminology in english to tag them.

 type=site
 + site=housing
 + housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}

 Here's an example of apartment:
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/194049 at
 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=34.079189lon=-117.560582zoom=18layers=Mrelation=194049


Thanks housing is a better term, here are some questions:

Is it possible to separate your category into physical and legal
status? All I want to do is separate houses/villas from apartment
buildings. I don't know how to spot the differences of different type
of housing tenures, it's only a legal difference between condominium,
housing cooperative and public housing.


You're right, it can be hard to tell from just satellite imagery, but there 
are clues.


If you see a tract with houses of various shapes and colors, individual 
driveways leading to streets, some swimming pools and some not, I'd call 
them house.


Mobile home parks have their own look to them. Once you've seen one, you 
know what you're looking at. E.g. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=34.12371lon=-117.58092zoom=17layers=M 
(it would be nice to have the main slippy map have a selectable satellite 
imagery background layer, wouldn't it?)


If you see larger, multi-story buildings, similar to each other, with a 
common swimming pool beside a different-looking building, you're either 
looking at condos or apartments. In the absence of any other info, I call 
them apartment. On surveying, if you can see signage at the entrance for 
the name of the complex, you can Google for the name and the street, and 
usually find units for sale in the real-estate listing services - then it 
is condo. If you don't see the complex name, but see a no trespass sign, 
and it has at the bottom Silver Springs HOA (home owners association), 
then it is condo.


Further clues can be gotten from county assessor's data if online. Public 
housing usually looks like apartment/condo, except it will show as 
city/county/federal land in the assessor's maps. Also, the distinction 
between condo and apartment is sometimes that condos will have individual 
addresses and apartments will not, though this is not the case in every 
city (Irvine, CA being an exception that comes to mind where apartments 
have their own housenumbers too).


It's possible that I've mapped some duplexes as houses, but I can see 
adding duplex as a type.


I can see adding townhouse, too.

The rest seem to be local terminology differences or slight variations on 
the same idea of the types already mentioned.


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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Alan Mintz]

At 2010-09-08 02:13, =?UTF-8?Q?M=E2=88=A1rtin_Koppenhoefer?= wrote:
... mobile home probably is, but I don't know what sense there is to tag 
it, as it has no place (it is mobile).


I'm not talking about RVs/trailers/campers - I'm talking about housing that 
is built in 2 or 3 pieces, trucked to a mobile home park, and then 
mounted fairly permanently to the ground. Once placed, they are rarely ever 
moved again. It's like a condo complex, in that the tenants own the 
dwelling and pay rent for the land and common areas.



 ... There are also mixed use houses, in Germany we call this Wohn- und 
Geschäftshaus, which is residential and commercial building.


Yes - these are getting somewhat popular in new redeveloped urban centers 
here. The most common case is ground-floor retail with apartments or condos 
above. Seems like these should be drawn as residential buildings and then 
add POIs for the shops.


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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Alan Mintz]

I wrote:
...
type=site
+ site=housing
+ housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}
   ^^^
This should be housing_type, not housing.

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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Alan Mintz]

At 2010-09-08 05:14, Eric Jarvies wrote:

or dwelling_type


I chose housing because it is the commonly-used term to describe the 
business of building and selling residences. Also, it seems like a word 
more likely to be understood (not to mention pronounced :) ) by non-native 
English-speakers.


BTW, dwell is one of only three root words in English that begin with dw :)

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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[John F. Eldredge]

One point of clarification: mobile home, in US usage, refers to a 
prefabricated structure that, while it can be towed by a large truck, is too 
large to be towed by an ordinary car or most (perhaps all) pickup trucks.  Many 
of them are mobile only during the initial installation, and never move again 
for the life of the structure.  They are derived from, but considerably larger 
than, the camping trailers designed to be towed behind an ordinary vehicle 
(what, in British terms, would be a caravan).  In recent years, manufactured 
homes have also been developed.  These are structures that look more like a 
conventional house, made of two or three sections the width of mobile homes, so 
that they can be transported over roadways.  The sections are then placed on a 
shared foundation, joined together, and never move again.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments
From  :mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com
Date  :Wed Sep 08 04:13:30 America/Chicago 2010


2010/9/8 Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com:

 But wikipedia is very vague on this subject so I think it's pretty
 hard to be able to get good terminology.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_building_types#Residential_Buildings
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_tenure


have a look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_house_types

I posted this already. It is not vague, it is unstructured. As I said above:
The usual building types for residential houses are:
- single house (detached house)
- semi-detached house (duplex)
- terraced house
- apartment building (block of flats) / condominium

public housing is not about typology, mobile home probably is, but I
don't know what sense there is to tag it, as it has no place (it is
mobile).

Again: these are types for houses as mentioned above. They are not
types of urban structure (but may imply the latter according to local
habits/culture).

There are also mixed use houses, in Germany we call this Wohn- und
Geschäftshaus, which is residential and commercial building. And
last there are also special cases like the experiments of Le
Corbusier: 
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Cite_Radieuse_5.jpgfiletimestamp=20090116135543
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Briey_unite_d_habitation.jpg
which were intended to be small cities in one building and they have
shops in the middle (7th and 8th floor AFAIR).


cheers,
Martin

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Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/9/8 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net:
 above. Seems like these should be drawn as residential buildings and then
 add POIs for the shops.


Of course that's a way to tag them (and it is already done widely in
Europe), but when talking about typology they could merit their own
type-tag.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/9/8 John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com:
 One point of clarification: mobile home, in US usage, refers to a 
 prefabricated structure that, while it can be towed by a large truck, is too 
 large to be towed by an ordinary car or most (perhaps all) pickup trucks.  
 Many of them are mobile only during the initial installation, and never move 
 again for the life of the structure.  They are derived from, but considerably 
 larger than, the camping trailers designed to be towed behind an ordinary 
 vehicle (what, in British terms, would be a caravan).  In recent years, 
 manufactured homes have also been developed.  These are structures that 
 look more like a conventional house, made of two or three sections the width 
 of mobile homes, so that they can be transported over roadways.  The sections 
 are then placed on a shared foundation, joined together, and never move again.


OK, I see, this is about construction then, not in the first place
about typology (which would be single detached house). There are also
in Europe all kinds of prefabricated houses, ranging from single
detached to highrise apartment buildings (and of course office
buildings, buildings which are partly prefabricated, etc.). I suggest
to keep typology and construction in separate tags.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Alan Mintz]

At 2010-09-04 09:12, Erik Johansson wrote:

I would like to tag areas with apartment buildings, and small houses
for a  single family differently, at the moment I tag all of them with
 landuse=residential. I need good terminology in english to tag them.


I've taken a slightly different approach. I use landuse=residential to 
outline the entire related area. I then add that way to a relation with 
role=boundary. I add the various buildings, roads leading to and within, 
swimming pools, tennis courts, etc. to the relation. On the relation 
itself, I tag:


type=site
+ site=housing
+ housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}
: house is a single-family detached dwelling where the owner owns the land 
and the buildings on it
: apartment is a multi-family dwelling where the tenants pay rent to the 
owner of the buildings and land
: condominium is where the tenant owns the building (or part of one, as 
they are often attached like apartments), but not the land, and pays 
proportional rent and maintenance fees for the land and common areas.
: mobile_home is similar to condominium, but using pre-fabricated housing 
instead of permanent structures
: public_housing is generally apartments (though occasionally houses) that 
are owned by a government agency and occupied by low-income/disabled tenants.


Here's an example of apartment: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/194049 at 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=34.079189lon=-117.560582zoom=18layers=Mrelation=194049


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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/9/8 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net:
 At 2010-09-04 09:12, Erik Johansson wrote:

 I've taken a slightly different approach. I use landuse=residential to
 outline the entire related area. I then add that way to a relation with
 role=boundary. I add the various buildings, roads leading to and within,
 swimming pools, tennis courts, etc. to the relation. On the relation itself,
 I tag:

 type=site
 + site=housing
 + housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}


that's fine, but adding simply the tag
housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}
to the landuse=residential polygon would have a similar effect. (More
complicated to evaluate, but more fool-proof because you can't
forget to add houses  to the relation).


 : house is a single-family detached dwelling where the owner owns the land
 and the buildings on it
 : apartment is a multi-family dwelling where the tenants pay rent to the
 owner of the buildings and land
 : condominium is where the tenant owns the building (or part of one, as
 they are often attached like apartments), but not the land, and pays
 proportional rent and maintenance fees for the land and common areas.
 : mobile_home is similar to condominium, but using pre-fabricated housing
 instead of permanent structures
 : public_housing is generally apartments (though occasionally houses) that
 are owned by a government agency and occupied by low-income/disabled
 tenants.

Your system is a mixture of typology and ownership.

The owner situation might be quite dependent on cultur (even locally,
i.e. differing from one city to another). In Berlin for instance there
are traditionally many people in rented apartments, but you will also
quite often find mixed situations: owners and leasers door to door in
the same building.

There are also people that rent a detached house. I wouldn't
incorporate ownership in the definition, even though it might fit in
all cases in your area, but I'm not sure about this for condominiums:
it seems that they are distinguished like this from blocks of flats.

The usual building types for residential houses are:
- single house (detached house)
- semi-detached house (duplex)
- terraced house
- apartment building (block of flats)


then there is a variety of other types and subtypes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_house_types

for the landuse it might also be interesting to point to urban typology:
closed typology (I miss the urban term): all buildings are built
directly adjacent without space between:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Geschlossene_Bauweise.pngfiletimestamp=20091002081248
this is the normal typology for (old) cities
open typology there are spaces between the buildings (detached
buildings, not necessarily houses)
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Offene_Bauweise.pngfiletimestamp=20091002081341

a particular part of the open typology is called Zeilenbau in
German, which my dictionary translates as continuous rows of houses
(probably not a good term), example here:
http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/119/wollishofen_neubuhl.jpg


Actually this is a really wide field, there are endless singular
projects and exceptions, and there are huge cultural differences:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Karlsruher_Stadtansicht.jpgfiletimestamp=20070406065622
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Voisin2.jpgfiletimestamp=20100318233108
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Dubai_Sports_City_Model_Pict_5.jpgfiletimestamp=20070930203503
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Algier.pngfiletimestamp=20050309181158
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gated_community

I think we should develop different generic criteria which allow us to
classify the building typology. These might be:
- number of floors
- open/closed urban typology
- single unit on one floor or several floors (internal steps inside the unit?)
- gardens?
- distribution of public space / semipublic spaces
- density (usually calculated by total living surface area divided
through site surface area)
- amount of units in one building

this is intended to be a first brainstorming, there might also be
other criteria or some of the above might not be valid/good ones.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Alan Mintz]

At 2010-09-07 17:51, =?UTF-8?Q?M=E2=88=A1rtin_Koppenhoefer?= wrote:

2010/9/8 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net:
 At 2010-09-04 09:12, Erik Johansson wrote:

 I've taken a slightly different approach. I use landuse=residential to
 outline the entire related area. I then add that way to a relation with
 role=boundary. I add the various buildings, roads leading to and within,
 swimming pools, tennis courts, etc. to the relation. On the relation 
itself,

 I tag:

 type=site
 + site=housing
 + housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}


that's fine, but adding simply the tag
housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}
to the landuse=residential polygon would have a similar effect.


True - I wanted to be complete about it, though, so I described how I was 
doing it, since at the time I started (a year or two ago), there was no 
coverage of the subject in the wiki at all.




 : house is a single-family detached dwelling where the owner owns the land
 and the buildings on it
 : apartment is a multi-family dwelling where the tenants pay rent to the
 owner of the buildings and land
 : condominium is where the tenant owns the building (or part of one, as
 they are often attached like apartments), but not the land, and pays
 proportional rent and maintenance fees for the land and common areas.
 : mobile_home is similar to condominium, but using pre-fabricated housing
 instead of permanent structures
 : public_housing is generally apartments (though occasionally houses) that
 are owned by a government agency and occupied by low-income/disabled
 tenants.

Your system is a mixture of typology and ownership.


Intentionally. Sometimes, I don't believe it's necessary to completely 
dissect all of the possible features from every different angle - 
particularly when many of those features may not be discernable from a 
quick survey in person or by records. AFAIK, in the US, these are the types 
of housing available when one goes to look for a place to live - this is 
the way that they are commonly categorized by people both in the real 
estate business and not.




The owner situation might be quite dependent on cultur (even locally,
i.e. differing from one city to another). In Berlin for instance there
are traditionally many people in rented apartments, but you will also
quite often find mixed situations: owners and leasers door to door in
the same building.


This can happen in condominiums here, too. You can sometimes get approval 
to rent out your condo. I don't think it's likely to be something you can 
see from a survey, though. It's still going to look like a condo, and be 
one in most respects. I wasn't attempting to be completely rigorous in the 
descriptions - just to try to describe what the thing is for those that do 
not know.




There are also people that rent a detached house.


Sure. It's still a house, though. It's still owned by the person that owns 
the land, and that is not the government. Perhaps my descriptions should be 
broadened to exclude who lives there.




...
Actually this is a really wide field, there are endless singular
projects and exceptions, and there are huge cultural differences:...


Again, I think this is one of those times when we need to focus more on 
usability and common knowledge. I believe I have described the terminology 
that people commonly know and use. It's worked well for me in the 315 cases 
that I've mapped. I don't think it precludes creation of an extended 
tagging scheme if someone really wants to import or research the other 
information.


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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[John F. Eldredge]

Other arrangements are common as well, such as duplexes (buildings holding two 
households); the same property owner owns both halves of the building, and the 
land underneath both; he or she may live in one half and rent out the other 
half, or may rent out both halves.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments
From  :mailto:alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net
Date  :Tue Sep 07 22:07:45 America/Chicago 2010


At 2010-09-07 17:51, =?UTF-8?Q?M=E2=88=A1rtin_Koppenhoefer?= wrote:
2010/9/8 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net:
  At 2010-09-04 09:12, Erik Johansson wrote:

  I've taken a slightly different approach. I use landuse=residential to
  outline the entire related area. I then add that way to a relation with
  role=boundary. I add the various buildings, roads leading to and within,
  swimming pools, tennis courts, etc. to the relation. On the relation
 itself,
  I tag:
 
  type=site
  + site=housing
  + housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}


that's fine, but adding simply the tag
housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}
to the landuse=residential polygon would have a similar effect.

True - I wanted to be complete about it, though, so I described how I was
doing it, since at the time I started (a year or two ago), there was no
coverage of the subject in the wiki at all.


  : house is a single-family detached dwelling where the owner owns the land
  and the buildings on it
  : apartment is a multi-family dwelling where the tenants pay rent to the
  owner of the buildings and land
  : condominium is where the tenant owns the building (or part of one, as
  they are often attached like apartments), but not the land, and pays
  proportional rent and maintenance fees for the land and common areas.
  : mobile_home is similar to condominium, but using pre-fabricated housing
  instead of permanent structures
  : public_housing is generally apartments (though occasionally houses) that
  are owned by a government agency and occupied by low-income/disabled
  tenants.

Your system is a mixture of typology and ownership.

Intentionally. Sometimes, I don't believe it's necessary to completely
dissect all of the possible features from every different angle -
particularly when many of those features may not be discernable from a
quick survey in person or by records. AFAIK, in the US, these are the types
of housing available when one goes to look for a place to live - this is
the way that they are commonly categorized by people both in the real
estate business and not.


The owner situation might be quite dependent on cultur (even locally,
i.e. differing from one city to another). In Berlin for instance there
are traditionally many people in rented apartments, but you will also
quite often find mixed situations: owners and leasers door to door in
the same building.

This can happen in condominiums here, too. You can sometimes get approval
to rent out your condo. I don't think it's likely to be something you can
see from a survey, though. It's still going to look like a condo, and be
one in most respects. I wasn't attempting to be completely rigorous in the
descriptions - just to try to describe what the thing is for those that do
not know.


There are also people that rent a detached house.

Sure. It's still a house, though. It's still owned by the person that owns
the land, and that is not the government. Perhaps my descriptions should be
broadened to exclude who lives there.


...
Actually this is a really wide field, there are endless singular
projects and exceptions, and there are huge cultural differences:...

Again, I think this is one of those times when we need to focus more on
usability and common knowledge. I believe I have described the terminology
that people commonly know and use. It's worked well for me in the 315 cases
that I've mapped. I don't think it precludes creation of an extended
tagging scheme if someone really wants to import or research the other
information.

--
Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net


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John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria
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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Alan Mintz]

At 2010-09-07 20:28, John F. Eldredge wrote:
Other arrangements are common as well, such as duplexes (buildings holding 
two households); the same property owner owns both halves of the building, 
and the land underneath both; he or she may live in one half and rent out 
the other half, or may rent out both halves.


Yup. You'd think I'd have not missed that one, having grown up in a duplex. :)

It seems, really, that this is a special case of a house, since people do 
the same with their houses (rent out part). Or maybe it's an apartment 
building (with only two units). My limited experience is that they are 
built more like houses/townhomes. I wouldn't be averse to adding 
housing_type=duplex for these. Are there tri-, quad-, etc. plexes?


--
Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net


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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Eric Jarvies]

housing:house/apartment/condominium/mobile_home/public_housing/shanty/fractional/timeshare

here in mexico, many properties have 'shanty' structures that are permanent, 
albeit cheap/easily dismantled, they are permanent dwellings none the less.

fractionals are usually in ,multi-level/unit structures, but also come in the 
form of free standing/singular structures, and timeshare are usually within a 
resort/hotel, and are not commonly referred to as being condominiums per say, 
but rather, as either timeshares or fractionals, and often times as suites or 
villas(here in mexico).  mexico has a high percentage of these type of 
dwellings... how do you think the best way to tag them is?

fractional:1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 3/4(ownership percentage)
timeshare:1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10(weeks)

Eric Jarvies

On Sep 7, 2010, at 9:28 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

 Other arrangements are common as well, such as duplexes (buildings holding 
 two households); the same property owner owns both halves of the building, 
 and the land underneath both; he or she may live in one half and rent out the 
 other half, or may rent out both halves.
 
 ---Original Email---
 Subject :Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments
 From  :mailto:alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net
 Date  :Tue Sep 07 22:07:45 America/Chicago 2010
 
 
 At 2010-09-07 17:51, =?UTF-8?Q?M=E2=88=A1rtin_Koppenhoefer?= wrote:
 2010/9/8 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net:
 At 2010-09-04 09:12, Erik Johansson wrote:
 
 I've taken a slightly different approach. I use landuse=residential to
 outline the entire related area. I then add that way to a relation with
 role=boundary. I add the various buildings, roads leading to and within,
 swimming pools, tennis courts, etc. to the relation. On the relation
 itself,
 I tag:
 
 type=site
 + site=housing
 + housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}
 
 
 that's fine, but adding simply the tag
 housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}
 to the landuse=residential polygon would have a similar effect.
 
 True - I wanted to be complete about it, though, so I described how I was
 doing it, since at the time I started (a year or two ago), there was no
 coverage of the subject in the wiki at all.
 
 
 : house is a single-family detached dwelling where the owner owns the land
 and the buildings on it
 : apartment is a multi-family dwelling where the tenants pay rent to the
 owner of the buildings and land
 : condominium is where the tenant owns the building (or part of one, as
 they are often attached like apartments), but not the land, and pays
 proportional rent and maintenance fees for the land and common areas.
 : mobile_home is similar to condominium, but using pre-fabricated housing
 instead of permanent structures
 : public_housing is generally apartments (though occasionally houses) that
 are owned by a government agency and occupied by low-income/disabled
 tenants.
 
 Your system is a mixture of typology and ownership.
 
 Intentionally. Sometimes, I don't believe it's necessary to completely
 dissect all of the possible features from every different angle -
 particularly when many of those features may not be discernable from a
 quick survey in person or by records. AFAIK, in the US, these are the types
 of housing available when one goes to look for a place to live - this is
 the way that they are commonly categorized by people both in the real
 estate business and not.
 
 
 The owner situation might be quite dependent on cultur (even locally,
 i.e. differing from one city to another). In Berlin for instance there
 are traditionally many people in rented apartments, but you will also
 quite often find mixed situations: owners and leasers door to door in
 the same building.
 
 This can happen in condominiums here, too. You can sometimes get approval
 to rent out your condo. I don't think it's likely to be something you can
 see from a survey, though. It's still going to look like a condo, and be
 one in most respects. I wasn't attempting to be completely rigorous in the
 descriptions - just to try to describe what the thing is for those that do
 not know.
 
 
 There are also people that rent a detached house.
 
 Sure. It's still a house, though. It's still owned by the person that owns
 the land, and that is not the government. Perhaps my descriptions should be
 broadened to exclude who lives there.
 
 
 ...
 Actually this is a really wide field, there are endless singular
 projects and exceptions, and there are huge cultural differences:...
 
 Again, I think this is one of those times when we need to focus more on
 usability and common knowledge. I believe I have described the terminology
 that people commonly know and use. It's worked well for me in the 315 cases
 that I've mapped. I don't think it precludes creation of an extended
 tagging scheme if someone really wants to import or research the other
 information.
 
 --
 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net

Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Eric Jarvies]

On Sep 7, 2010, at 10:17 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

 The problem with mixing ownership terms with building structure terms is that 
 you can't generally distinguish ownership by appearance, short of there being 
 signs stating the fact, or making inquiries.  I have heard of cases where 
 some units in a multi-household structure would be owned by the residents, 
 while other units would be available for lease, or even rented out 
 month-by-month.
Ok, makes sense.  So it's best to classify them as housing:condominium ?  And 
what about the 'shanty' value?  In my state, or more specifically, in my 
municipality, we have ~100,000 titled(legally) properties, and about ~120,000 
divided properties(squatters, ejido, etc.).  Of these, about 30,000 have 
'shanty' type dwellings.  Most Mexicans do not finance their 
properties/homes/home construction... which means they spend years building 
them, using their wages/earnings from each paycheck, advancing little by 
little.  New lower class neighborhoods that spring-up as a result of economy 
stimulation(driven in my area by tourism), usually takes about 4-5 years for 
those (mostly) immigrants to make the move from their shanty dwelling, to 
constructing a permanent cement/rebar dwelling, but this usually takes up to 
five years before they've finished(the obra negra/structural work including 
floors, walls, and roof).  So should these 'shanty' homes be tagged as a 
'house' just the same?  And if so, then what is the current common convention 
for classifying construction types?

Eric Jarvies


 
 ---Original Email---
 Subject :Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments
 From  :mailto:e...@csl.com.mx
 Date  :Tue Sep 07 23:03:41 America/Chicago 2010
 
 
 housing:house/apartment/condominium/mobile_home/public_housing/shanty/fractional/timeshare
 
 here in mexico, many properties have 'shanty' structures that are permanent, 
 albeit cheap/easily dismantled, they are permanent dwellings none the less.
 
 fractionals are usually in ,multi-level/unit structures, but also come in the 
 form of free standing/singular structures, and timeshare are usually within a 
 resort/hotel, and are not commonly referred to as being condominiums per say, 
 but rather, as either timeshares or fractionals, and often times as suites or 
 villas(here in mexico).  mexico has a high percentage of these type of 
 dwellings... how do you think the best way to tag them is?
 
 fractional:1/16, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 3/4(ownership percentage)
 timeshare:1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10(weeks)
 
 Eric Jarvies
 
 On Sep 7, 2010, at 9:28 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
 
 Other arrangements are common as well, such as duplexes (buildings holding 
 two households); the same property owner owns both halves of the building, 
 and the land underneath both; he or she may live in one half and rent out 
 the other half, or may rent out both halves.
 
 ---Original Email---
 Subject :Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments
 From  :mailto:alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net
 Date  :Tue Sep 07 22:07:45 America/Chicago 2010
 
 
 At 2010-09-07 17:51, =?UTF-8?Q?M=E2=88=A1rtin_Koppenhoefer?= wrote:
 2010/9/8 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net:
 At 2010-09-04 09:12, Erik Johansson wrote:
 
 I've taken a slightly different approach. I use landuse=residential to
 outline the entire related area. I then add that way to a relation with
 role=boundary. I add the various buildings, roads leading to and within,
 swimming pools, tennis courts, etc. to the relation. On the relation
 itself,
 I tag:
 
 type=site
 + site=housing
 + housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}
 
 
 that's fine, but adding simply the tag
 housing={house|apartment|condominium|mobile_home|public_housing}
 to the landuse=residential polygon would have a similar effect.
 
 True - I wanted to be complete about it, though, so I described how I was
 doing it, since at the time I started (a year or two ago), there was no
 coverage of the subject in the wiki at all.
 
 
 : house is a single-family detached dwelling where the owner owns the land
 and the buildings on it
 : apartment is a multi-family dwelling where the tenants pay rent to the
 owner of the buildings and land
 : condominium is where the tenant owns the building (or part of one, as
 they are often attached like apartments), but not the land, and pays
 proportional rent and maintenance fees for the land and common areas.
 : mobile_home is similar to condominium, but using pre-fabricated housing
 instead of permanent structures
 : public_housing is generally apartments (though occasionally houses) that
 are owned by a government agency and occupied by low-income/disabled
 tenants.
 
 Your system is a mixture of typology and ownership.
 
 Intentionally. Sometimes, I don't believe it's necessary to completely
 dissect all of the possible features from every different angle -
 particularly when many of those features may not be discernable from a
 quick

Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Willi]

On 04.09.2010 18:12, Erik Johansson wrote:
 Hi

 I would like to tag areas with apartment buildings, and small houses
 for a  single family differently, at the moment I tag all of them with
   landuse=residential. I need good terminology in english to tag them.

 This is from swedish wikipedia:
 http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flerfamiljhus#Typer_av_flerbostadshus
 http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sm%C3%A5hus

 So that would be something like:
 landuse=residential
 residential.en=[ apartmentbuildings | villas | small houses | vacation
 houses | farmbuildings]
 residential.sv=[ flerbostadshus | villområde | småhus | fritidshus |
 radhus | miljonprogram] etc.


What's about tagging each building according to
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Building_attributes

Willi


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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Pierre-Alain Dorange]

M?rtin Koppenhoefer
dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

  And AFAIK it's not a good idea to translate every value like you do it here.
  The translations/languages should only apply to names, not on classes.
  If your Application wants to use different languages than English, it should
  use a dictionary for that at client side.
 
 
 While this might be true in this case or not (don't speak Swedish)
 there are certainly cases in the world where English is missing a
 term. So as exception putting a tag in a foreign language (and marking
 it as foreign) is not a bad idea.

Yes you're right there is some regional exception for specific things.
But the general rule is to use only one tag class for a definied thing.

tag class has not to be translated, but specific tag class name should
not be always in english for some regional specific features.

-- 
Pierre-Alain Dorange


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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Erik Johansson]

On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Pierre-Alain Dorange pdora...@mac.com wrote:
 M?rtin Koppenhoefer
 dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

  And AFAIK it's not a good idea to translate every value like you do it 
  here.
  The translations/languages should only apply to names, not on classes.
  If your Application wants to use different languages than English, it 
  should
  use a dictionary for that at client side.


 While this might be true in this case or not (don't speak Swedish)
 there are certainly cases in the world where English is missing a
 term. So as exception putting a tag in a foreign language (and marking
 it as foreign) is not a bad idea.

 Yes you're right there is some regional exception for specific things.
 But the general rule is to use only one tag class for a definied thing.

 tag class has not to be translated, but specific tag class name should
 not be always in english for some regional specific features.

This is a dear subject to me, but it wasn't really want I wanted to
know.. :-) I just want to know what english speakers call areas with
apartment buildings/areas with villas.

Maybe some smart guy will solve the translation of key/values at some
point, I've not seen any solution yet.


/emj

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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com wrote:
 This is a dear subject to me, but it wasn't really want I wanted to
 know.. :-) I just want to know what english speakers call areas with
 apartment buildings/areas with villas.

You might have luck looking at zoning classifications; apartments
would be zoned residential multi-family. You might also want to look
through http://www.ocpafl.org/pls/webappI/get_codes?p_code=propuse
though that list gets a little too granular in areas.

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[Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Erik Johansson]

Hi

I would like to tag areas with apartment buildings, and small houses
for a  single family differently, at the moment I tag all of them with
 landuse=residential. I need good terminology in english to tag them.

This is from swedish wikipedia:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flerfamiljhus#Typer_av_flerbostadshus
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sm%C3%A5hus

So that would be something like:
landuse=residential
residential.en=[ apartmentbuildings | villas | small houses | vacation
houses | farmbuildings]
residential.sv=[ flerbostadshus | villområde | småhus | fritidshus |
radhus | miljonprogram] etc.

-- 
/emj

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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[Peter Wendorff]

 Aside of your question: you should use : instead of . to separate 
language tokens from normal tagnames.

And AFAIK it's not a good idea to translate every value like you do it here.
The translations/languages should only apply to names, not on classes.
If your Application wants to use different languages than English, it 
should use a dictionary for that at client side.


regards
Peter

On 04.09.2010 18:12, Erik Johansson wrote:

Hi

I would like to tag areas with apartment buildings, and small houses
for a  single family differently, at the moment I tag all of them with
  landuse=residential. I need good terminology in english to tag them.

This is from swedish wikipedia:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flerfamiljhus#Typer_av_flerbostadshus
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sm%C3%A5hus

So that would be something like:
landuse=residential
residential.en=[ apartmentbuildings | villas | small houses | vacation
houses | farmbuildings]
residential.sv=[ flerbostadshus | villområde | småhus | fritidshus |
radhus | miljonprogram] etc.




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Re: [Tagging] landuse=single family houses/apartments

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/9/4 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de:
 And AFAIK it's not a good idea to translate every value like you do it here.
 The translations/languages should only apply to names, not on classes.
 If your Application wants to use different languages than English, it should
 use a dictionary for that at client side.


While this might be true in this case or not (don't speak Swedish)
there are certainly cases in the world where English is missing a
term. So as exception putting a tag in a foreign language (and marking
it as foreign) is not a bad idea.

Cheers,
Martin

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