Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
2014-12-17 1:29 GMT+01:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: I tag an adit as a node, the opening through which you enter the underground part of a cave or mine. +1, I take that back, was confusing it with access which could be either a spot or a linear feature, while entrance is supposedly a spot (said the dictionaries I have consulted in the mean time). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
2014-12-09 16:39 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: I get the point. However, man_made=adit has been defined in the wiki to be the entrance only, since August 2010. The tag is used 2309 times that way, i.e. on nodes. It does not seem right to re-define a tag that has been in use for so long. well, an entrance doesn't have to be a door or door like opening, an entrance to a mine could well be a horizontal passage that leads to the actual digging zone, or am I missinterpreting this? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
Am 16.12.2014 19:19, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2014-12-09 16:39 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at mailto:b...@volki.at: I get the point. However, man_made=adit has been defined in the wiki to be the entrance only, since August 2010. The tag is used 2309 times that way, i.e. on nodes. It does not seem right to re-define a tag that has been in use for so long. well, an entrance doesn't have to be a door or door like opening, an entrance to a mine could well be a horizontal passage that leads to the actual digging zone, or am I missinterpreting this? Here I would also opt to leave adit with the meaning it has for years now. The more as the english wikipedia seems to support this definition (cannot judge whether this is correct). There's just no need to redefine well established tags without need. And I would see only the opening gate (Portal, Stolleneingang) as the entrance, not the passage (Stollen) itself that leads to the digging zone (Abbauort) which might be extended but which also might be the dead end. The passage might be quite long and I see no reason to call it an entrance. Cheers Zecke ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
I tag an adit as a node, the opening through which you enter the underground part of a cave or mine. Cheers, Dave On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 4:26 AM, Zecke z...@saeuferleber.de wrote: Am 16.12.2014 19:19, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2014-12-09 16:39 GMT+01:00 Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at: I get the point. However, man_made=adit has been defined in the wiki to be the entrance only, since August 2010. The tag is used 2309 times that way, i.e. on nodes. It does not seem right to re-define a tag that has been in use for so long. well, an entrance doesn't have to be a door or door like opening, an entrance to a mine could well be a horizontal passage that leads to the actual digging zone, or am I missinterpreting this? Here I would also opt to leave adit with the meaning it has for years now. The more as the english wikipedia seems to support this definition (cannot judge whether this is correct). There's just no need to redefine well established tags without need. And I would see only the opening gate (Portal, Stolleneingang) as the entrance, not the passage (Stollen) itself that leads to the digging zone (Abbauort) which might be extended but which also might be the dead end. The passage might be quite long and I see no reason to call it an entrance. Cheers Zecke ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
On 08.12.2014 18:01, Christopher Hoess wrote: An adit is the entrance to a mine in the way a lobby is an entrance to a building; you could still have a lobby entrance without committing a solecism. [...] There's nothing wrong with tagging the adit itself, but that should be applied to the underground passage rather than the portal to the passage. I get the point. However, man_made=adit has been defined in the wiki to be the entrance only, since August 2010. The tag is used 2309 times that way, i.e. on nodes. It does not seem right to re-define a tag that has been in use for so long. man_made=adit_entrance would actually be a synonym for man_made=adit as currently used on nodes. Applications and editors would need to be aware of one more tag, which does not get us any practical benefit. If we want to map the horizontal passages as man_made=adit, we only need to extend the definition in the wiki: man_made=adit on nodes ... entrance man_made=adit on ways ... passage While I am skeptical about indoor mapping of caves (because of their irregular topography), we probably can do it for underground mines quite easily, provided that we find out the correct terminology. On 08.12.2014 18:01, Christopher Hoess wrote: In the parlance I'm familiar with (generally hard-rock mining in the northeastern US), an adit is a more or less horizontal tunnel that's driven from the outside of the mine to bring miners to the vein of the desired mineral, and often to provide drainage. That is, the material excavated to create the adit is generally country rock rather than the ore being sought; a horizontal tunnel following the ore is a drift. What if ore was found halfway to the first intersection, or if there's only one straight tunnel? Here's some draft of a table with English and German term, and the meaning. Feel free to correct and extend: English / German / meaning underground mine / Bergwerk / the whole thing adit / Stollen / initial horizontal passage drift / Stollen / other horizontal passage shaft / Schacht / vertical passage adit entrance ? / Mundloch / horizontal entrance ? / Mundlochpinge / sinkhole-like buried horizontal entrance ? / Pinge / sinkhole-like remainder of a shaft entrance ? / Sondierstollen / exploration adit (stopped when no ore is found) bunker? / Luftschutzstollen / looks like an adit, used as a shelter during bombardments, does not exist in America ? / Lagerstollen / used for storage (ammunition dump, nuclear waste...) wine cellar / Weinkeller / used for storing and fermenting wine -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: And tags for other mine entrance types? Would it not be better to have man_made=mine_entrance type=adit etc I'm a native speaker of English and I only came across the word adit relatively recently. To me it seems obscure and technical - but I understand that in other parts of the world it's common. Would man_made=mine_entrance be offensive to people who do use the word 'adit'? Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
On Mon, Dec 08, 2014 at 10:29:21PM +1100, Steve Bennett wrote: On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: And tags for other mine entrance types? Would it not be better to have man_made=mine_entrance type=adit etc I'm a native speaker of English and I only came across the word adit relatively recently. To me it seems obscure and technical - but I understand that in other parts of the world it's common. It's in common use in Cornwall and I guess other areas of the UK with a mining history. Despite the philological origin of the word, it normally refers to the complete tunnel rather than just the entrance (in modern usage). Maybe the Roman use of entrance was more emcompassing. I agree that the average mapper might not know the term, but then such a person is unlikely to map an adit, or even recognise one. Would man_made=mine_entrance be offensive to people who do use the word 'adit'? That doesn't seem quite right as above. mine_access_passage is the best I can do OTTOMH, but omits the implication that it is roughly horizontal. Or since I guess it will almost always be a node, then mine_access_passage_entrance?? Of course, that suggests adit_entrance as well. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
Would man_made=mine_entrance be offensive to people who do use the word 'adit'? It would include both adits (horizontal) and shafts (vertical) what may or may not be a good idea. 2014-12-08 12:29 GMT+01:00 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: And tags for other mine entrance types? Would it not be better to have man_made=mine_entrance type=adit etc I'm a native speaker of English and I only came across the word adit relatively recently. To me it seems obscure and technical - but I understand that in other parts of the world it's common. Would man_made=mine_entrance be offensive to people who do use the word 'adit'? Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 1:43 PM, Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at wrote: Wikipedia says: An adit (from Latin aditus, entrance)[1] is an entrance to an underground mine... An adit_entrance would be an entrance to an entrance. An adit is the entrance to a mine in the way a lobby is an entrance to a building; you could still have a lobby entrance without committing a solecism. In the parlance I'm familiar with (generally hard-rock mining in the northeastern US), an adit is a more or less horizontal tunnel that's driven from the outside of the mine to bring miners to the vein of the desired mineral, and often to provide drainage. That is, the material excavated to create the adit is generally country rock rather than the ore being sought; a horizontal tunnel following the ore is a drift. The problem with all this is that identifying adits, drifts, stopes, etc. may require knowledge about the working of the mine and the ore body which has long since been lost. While I was composing this, Mateusz hit what I think is the key point for mapping: for a given entrance, the main thing we'd like to know is whether it's an entrance to a roughly horizontal tunnel, a roughly vertical shaft, or some intergrade between the two. (e.g., past a certain gradient, the entrance should probably be marked as a shaft rather than a vertical entrance). There's nothing wrong with tagging the adit itself, but that should be applied to the underground passage rather than the portal to the passage. -- Chris Hoess ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
I'm a native speaker of English and I only came across the word adit relatively recently. To me it seems obscure and technical - but I understand that in other parts of the world it's common. In the US the term adit appears on at least some USGS 7.5 minute topo maps. The ones I have explored fit this part of the Wikipedia definition: Adits are also used to explore for mineral veins (as opposed to a general mine entrance). Mike On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:52 AM, Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com wrote: Would man_made=mine_entrance be offensive to people who do use the word 'adit'? It would include both adits (horizontal) and shafts (vertical) what may or may not be a good idea. 2014-12-08 12:29 GMT+01:00 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: And tags for other mine entrance types? Would it not be better to have man_made=mine_entrance type=adit etc I'm a native speaker of English and I only came across the word adit relatively recently. To me it seems obscure and technical - but I understand that in other parts of the world it's common. Would man_made=mine_entrance be offensive to people who do use the word 'adit'? Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
On 12/08/2014 06:50 AM, ael wrote: On Mon, Dec 08, 2014 at 10:29:21PM +1100, Steve Bennett wrote: On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:14 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: And tags for other mine entrance types? Would it not be better to have man_made=mine_entrance type=adit etc I'm a native speaker of English and I only came across the word adit relatively recently. To me it seems obscure and technical - but I understand that in other parts of the world it's common. It's in common use in Cornwall and I guess other areas of the UK with a mining history. Despite the philological origin of the word, it normally refers to the complete tunnel rather than just the entrance (in modern usage). Maybe the Roman use of entrance was more emcompassing. I agree that the average mapper might not know the term, but then such a person is unlikely to map an adit, or even recognise one. Would man_made=mine_entrance be offensive to people who do use the word 'adit'? That doesn't seem quite right as above. mine_access_passage is the best I can do OTTOMH, but omits the implication that it is roughly horizontal. Or since I guess it will almost always be a node, then mine_access_passage_entrance?? Of course, that suggests adit_entrance as well. ael Whenever I have encountered the term, it referred to passages that were horizontal, or at least close enough to horizontal that one could walk along them, as opposed to shafts which meant vertical passages. It certainly referred to more than just the entrance to the mine. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
On 7/12/2014 11:00 PM, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote: Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 19:43:36 +0100 From: Friedrich Volkmann b...@volki.at To: tagging@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance Message-ID: 54834e58.8000...@volki.at Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 06.12.2014 19:06, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: There is a proposed tag man_made=adit that is a good idea. But I think that it would be better to use man_made=adit_entrance for adit entrances - too make it clear and obvious what should be tagged and to make it closer to natural=cave_entrance Wikipedia says: An adit (from Latin aditus, entrance)[1] is an entrance to an underground mine... An adit_entrance would be an entrance to an entrance. And tags for other mine entrance types? Would it not be better to have man_made=mine_entrance type=adit etc ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
Am 07.12.2014 23:14, schrieb Warin: And tags for other mine entrance types? Would it not be better to have man_made=mine_entrance type=adit etc What other types do you mean? There are adits and mineshafts, both exist as man_made=*. And I doubt if anybody would really consider a mineshaft as an entrance where you step in. It will be a unique experience! There are in fact forms in between adits and mineshafts which is all more or less non vertical shafts. I don't know english words for that but up to now most of them have either been tagged as adits (when you can step in) or as mineshafts (when you can't). Cheers, Zecke ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
There is a proposed tag man_made=adit that is a good idea. But I think that it would be better to use man_made=adit_entrance for adit entrances - too make it clear and obvious what should be tagged and to make it closer to natural=cave_entrance related: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dadit and https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/704 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
On 06.12.2014 19:06, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: There is a proposed tag man_made=adit that is a good idea. But I think that it would be better to use man_made=adit_entrance for adit entrances - too make it clear and obvious what should be tagged and to make it closer to natural=cave_entrance Wikipedia says: An adit (from Latin aditus, entrance)[1] is an entrance to an underground mine... An adit_entrance would be an entrance to an entrance. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
On 06/12/2014 18:06, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: There is a proposed tag man_made=adit that is a good idea. But I think that it would be better to use man_made=adit_entrance for adit entrances - too make it clear and obvious what should be tagged and to make it closer to natural=cave_entrance That would be closer to the English usage of the word adit round near me (Derbyshire, England - lots of mining and lots of rain, so lots of adits to let the water out). To be absolutely clear - an adit isn't just the entrance, it's the (nearly horizontal) passage from the entrance into the mine. Wikipedia doesn't always get things right (especially when it comes to distinguishing between different regional Englishes) but it does a pretty good job here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adit (better than our wiki tag page IMHO) Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=adit_entrance
On 06/12/2014 18:43, Friedrich Volkmann wrote: On 06.12.2014 19:06, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: There is a proposed tag man_made=adit that is a good idea. But I think that it would be better to use man_made=adit_entrance for adit entrances - too make it clear and obvious what should be tagged and to make it closer to natural=cave_entrance Wikipedia says: An adit (from Latin aditus, entrance)[1] is an entrance to an underground mine... An adit_entrance would be an entrance to an entrance. Look up Pendle Hill some time :-) Cheers, Andy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
