Re: [Tagging] man_made=gas_well Was man_made=petroleum_well vs man_made=pumping_rig
Le jeu. 27 févr. 2020 à 08:34, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> a écrit : > > +1 There are some ultra-deep drillings for water, but are functionally > different both from water well and petroleum wells. > > Single tag for petroleum wells and water wells seems to me > an overgeneralizing of presets. > I feel a bit uncomfortable with such hypothesis: a single word to deal with two apparently different things doesn't sound as an overgeneralizing of language. Note that I'd rather agree (depending on man_made values chosen) on distinguishing between "open" wells to collect fluids with buckets located just under the surface and digged wells to collect (eventually pressurized) fluids. My point is to not add substance indication in man_made values as wells structure doesn't depend on collected fluid but on geology and environment (and substance goes in existing and established substance=* key with appropriate validation and documentation) All the best François ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=gas_well Was man_made=petroleum_well vs man_made=pumping_rig
On 26/02/2020 23:22, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: According to these sources, the term "petroleum" can include both natural gas and crude oil: Someone had better tell the Oxford English Dictionary they've got it wrong then: 'petroleum, n. [..] A viscous liquid, consisting chiefly of a mixture of hydrocarbons and varying in colour from black or dark brown to light yellow, that is formed by the decomposition of organic matter buried in sediments, is present in some rock formations (sometimes seeping out on to the ground), and is extracted and refined to produce fuels (esp. petrol, paraffin, and diesel) and other substances; mineral oil.' -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=gas_well Was man_made=petroleum_well vs man_made=pumping_rig
Am Do., 27. Feb. 2020 um 01:33 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg < joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>: > > Christmas trees are intended to regulate the well pressure or manage > filling product injection to raise field pressure. > > You'll find them independently on oil or water wells depending on the > pressure. > > Very few water wells have high enough pressure to require such a > device. 99.9% of water wells are a few meters to a few tens of meters > deep, and most of those that are mapped in Openstreetmap are in > low-income countries where they will have a manual pump on top, or a > bucket that goes into a hand-dug well. > pumps and buckets are typical for all smaller water wells, and from looking at the map, it doesn't seem a tag that is used more in lower income countries than in richer countries. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/man_made=water_well#map Water wells are typical for all areas where the people want or have to be independent from the public water supplies (e.g. in private gardens where the public aqueduct is too far away), or where it is the only source of water (no aqueducts). > > Tags in Openstreetmap are designed by ordinary people for mapping the > usual situation. They do not need to cover the 0.1% of cases that are > strange exceptions or outliers. > tags in OSM are designed to be universally applicable. A tag for a water well would usually apply to all kinds of water wells, including those with higher pressure and regulating devices, unless it would have been excluded in the definition (or we all agree that it is fundamentally differerent and not covered by the definition / expectation). The current water well definition states: "A water well is a structural facility created to access ground water from an aquifer. It is a vertical or sometimes horizontal excavation, shaft or structure created in the ground by digging, driving, boring or drilling. The subsurface water is usually drawn by pumping or raising containers, such as buckets." so it seems it would apply to the above wells as well. Note that it says "to access", which would IMHO include accessing water for monitoring it, rather than extracting it. Do you agree? It also says: "from an aquifer", which seems to include deep aquifers, but then mentions "subsurface" which is a term I would usually understand as close to the surface (or am I misguided)? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dwater_well > > "The same applies on geothermal wells with substance=steam or > substance=water + utility=heating > > https://www.slb.com/drilling/rigs-and-equipment/wellhead-systems/geothermal-wellhead-system > " > > I agree, and I would not use man_made=water_well for a geothermal > energy facility. +1, I agree, because the intention is not to get water but to get heat. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=gas_well Was man_made=petroleum_well vs man_made=pumping_rig
Am Do., 27. Feb. 2020 um 00:23 Uhr schrieb Joseph Eisenberg < joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>: > Different tags are used for petroleum wells vs water wells because > they look totally different do they? Have a look at this short clip that shows a water well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lkoCCCQytc > and their function for the general map > user is quite distinct. indeed > > An oil or gas well has a fire-hydrant like structure on top called a > "Christmas tree" or a pumping rig like a "pump jack" - you will not > mistake them for a water well. > You will use a pump jack for the extraction of liquids, so I would say their presence will exclude a gas-only well. > > According to these sources, the term "petroleum" can include both > natural gas and crude oil: > > > http://energy4me.org/all-about-energy/what-is-energy/energy-sources/petroleum/ > > "Oil and natural gas together make petroleum. Petroleum, which is > Latin for rock oil, is a fossil fuel, meaning it was made naturally > from decaying prehistoric plant and animal remains. It is a mixture of > hundreds of different hydrocarbons molecules containing hydrogen and > carbon that exist sometimes as a liquid (crude oil) and sometimes as a > vapor (natural gas)." > > https://www.appea.com.au/oil-gas-explained/oil-and-gas/what-is-petroleum/ > > "Petroleum is a general term for oil and natural gas." > > So a man_made=petroleum_well is a natural gas or crude oil well, but > many (most?) petroleum wells produce both oil and gas. > this is fine, so we already have it structured nicely ;) For oil wells, gas will usually also be extracted (but not always used), but for gas only wells we could have a subtag to man_made=petroleum_well Is there something in use? Otherwise we would be loosing information compared to man_made=gas_well. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=gas_well Was man_made=petroleum_well vs man_made=pumping_rig
Feb 27, 2020, 00:22 by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com: > Different tags are used for petroleum wells vs water wells because > they look totally different and their function for the general map > user is quite distinct. A water well might just be a covered hole, but > if it is a bored (drilled) well it will be connected to a manual or > powered pump. > +1 There are some ultra-deep drillings for water, but are functionally different both from water well and petroleum wells. Single tag for petroleum wells and water wells seems to me an overgeneralizing of presets. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=gas_well Was man_made=petroleum_well vs man_made=pumping_rig
> Christmas trees are intended to regulate the well pressure or manage filling > product injection to raise field pressure. > You'll find them independently on oil or water wells depending on the > pressure. Very few water wells have high enough pressure to require such a device. 99.9% of water wells are a few meters to a few tens of meters deep, and most of those that are mapped in Openstreetmap are in low-income countries where they will have a manual pump on top, or a bucket that goes into a hand-dug well. Tags in Openstreetmap are designed by ordinary people for mapping the usual situation. They do not need to cover the 0.1% of cases that are strange exceptions or outliers. But it's perfectly fine to create a new special tag if you want to map a 1000 meter deep, high-pressure artesian well, and think it necessary to specify more details. There is no need to deprecate common, easy to use tags like man_made=water_well. "The same applies on geothermal wells with substance=steam or substance=water + utility=heating https://www.slb.com/drilling/rigs-and-equipment/wellhead-systems/geothermal-wellhead-system; I agree, and I would not use man_made=water_well for a geothermal energy facility. Usually these are complex loops where water is removed but then re-injected. They are not similar to a normal water well, where groundwater is extracted for drinking or irrigation or other direct human uses. There are very few geothermal energy production facilities, compared to the number of petroleum and water wells in the world, and I don't think many mappers are trying to map the details of geothermal energy sites, so power=plant + plant:source=geothermal is enough for most cases, plus power=generator + generator:source=geothermal, but feel free to create a new tag for the special details of water circulation in geothermal plants if you are interested. - Joseph Eisenberg On 2/27/20, François Lacombe wrote: > Hi > > Le jeu. 27 févr. 2020 à 00:23, Joseph Eisenberg > > a écrit : > >> Different tags are used for petroleum wells vs water wells because >> they look totally different and their function for the general map >> user is quite distinct. A water well might just be a covered hole, but >> if it is a bored (drilled) well it will be connected to a manual or >> powered pump. >> > > I respectably disagree Jospeh, > > As mentioned, many countries actually drill ground to look for water > hundred meters down. > Water is collected like oil here and the well just look the same as > petroleum. > > https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/features/the-great-man-made-river/ > "The first, 15 years ago, was a mandate to drill and construct 117 water > wells, 36 piezometer wells and 23 exploratory wells in the Tazerbo area in > east-central Libya. Some of the wells had to be drilled to a depth of 1,200 > metres, the length of 11 regulation football fields" > > I think it's a bad idea to include the substance or purpose in the well > value as same facilities may be built to collect petroleum or water. > > >> An oil or gas well has a fire-hydrant like structure on top called a >> "Christmas tree" or a pumping rig like a "pump jack" - you will not >> mistake them for a water well. >> > > Christmas trees are intended to regulate the well pressure or manage > filling product injection to raise field pressure. > You'll find them independently on oil or water wells depending on the > pressure. > > The same applies on geothermal wells with substance=steam or > substance=water + utility=heating > https://www.slb.com/drilling/rigs-and-equipment/wellhead-systems/geothermal-wellhead-system > > However I'm ok to say that a traditional water well (as any surface well) > don't look the same as industrial drilled wells. > So two or more value of man_made may be useful to reflect those difference > but please don't include any substance indication in man_made values. > > All the best > > François > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=gas_well Was man_made=petroleum_well vs man_made=pumping_rig
Hi Le jeu. 27 févr. 2020 à 00:23, Joseph Eisenberg a écrit : > Different tags are used for petroleum wells vs water wells because > they look totally different and their function for the general map > user is quite distinct. A water well might just be a covered hole, but > if it is a bored (drilled) well it will be connected to a manual or > powered pump. > I respectably disagree Jospeh, As mentioned, many countries actually drill ground to look for water hundred meters down. Water is collected like oil here and the well just look the same as petroleum. https://www.canadianconsultingengineer.com/features/the-great-man-made-river/ "The first, 15 years ago, was a mandate to drill and construct 117 water wells, 36 piezometer wells and 23 exploratory wells in the Tazerbo area in east-central Libya. Some of the wells had to be drilled to a depth of 1,200 metres, the length of 11 regulation football fields" I think it's a bad idea to include the substance or purpose in the well value as same facilities may be built to collect petroleum or water. > An oil or gas well has a fire-hydrant like structure on top called a > "Christmas tree" or a pumping rig like a "pump jack" - you will not > mistake them for a water well. > Christmas trees are intended to regulate the well pressure or manage filling product injection to raise field pressure. You'll find them independently on oil or water wells depending on the pressure. The same applies on geothermal wells with substance=steam or substance=water + utility=heating https://www.slb.com/drilling/rigs-and-equipment/wellhead-systems/geothermal-wellhead-system However I'm ok to say that a traditional water well (as any surface well) don't look the same as industrial drilled wells. So two or more value of man_made may be useful to reflect those difference but please don't include any substance indication in man_made values. All the best François ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=gas_well Was man_made=petroleum_well vs man_made=pumping_rig
Different tags are used for petroleum wells vs water wells because they look totally different and their function for the general map user is quite distinct. A water well might just be a covered hole, but if it is a bored (drilled) well it will be connected to a manual or powered pump. An oil or gas well has a fire-hydrant like structure on top called a "Christmas tree" or a pumping rig like a "pump jack" - you will not mistake them for a water well. According to these sources, the term "petroleum" can include both natural gas and crude oil: http://energy4me.org/all-about-energy/what-is-energy/energy-sources/petroleum/ "Oil and natural gas together make petroleum. Petroleum, which is Latin for rock oil, is a fossil fuel, meaning it was made naturally from decaying prehistoric plant and animal remains. It is a mixture of hundreds of different hydrocarbons molecules containing hydrogen and carbon that exist sometimes as a liquid (crude oil) and sometimes as a vapor (natural gas)." https://www.appea.com.au/oil-gas-explained/oil-and-gas/what-is-petroleum/ "Petroleum is a general term for oil and natural gas." So a man_made=petroleum_well is a natural gas or crude oil well, but many (most?) petroleum wells produce both oil and gas. - Joseph Eisenberg On 2/27/20, François Lacombe wrote: > Le mer. 26 févr. 2020 à 22:06, Martin Koppenhoefer > a écrit : > >> >> these aren’t independent concepts, a water well works differently than a >> gas well. The substance (and its intended use, and the intended quantity) >> define/s the requirements for the well. >> > > We both agree on the sense. > I meant semantic independence where substance got its own key and man_made > regards the well only. > > Deep dug wells also exists for water (to take it out artesian aquifer for > instance or see GMMRP in Lybia), then we may need additional value for such > drilled wells. > > man_made=well => "surface" well > man_made=drilled_well => very profound well > Both can get substance=* to state what we take out of each. > > All the best > > François > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=gas_well Was man_made=petroleum_well vs man_made=pumping_rig
Le mer. 26 févr. 2020 à 22:06, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : > > these aren’t independent concepts, a water well works differently than a > gas well. The substance (and its intended use, and the intended quantity) > define/s the requirements for the well. > We both agree on the sense. I meant semantic independence where substance got its own key and man_made regards the well only. Deep dug wells also exists for water (to take it out artesian aquifer for instance or see GMMRP in Lybia), then we may need additional value for such drilled wells. man_made=well => "surface" well man_made=drilled_well => very profound well Both can get substance=* to state what we take out of each. All the best François ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=gas_well Was man_made=petroleum_well vs man_made=pumping_rig
sent from a phone > On 26. Feb 2020, at 21:32, François Lacombe wrote: > > Nevertheess, should we take advantage of this discussion to use man_made=well > + substance=* only as to prevent usage of values mixing two independant > concepts (the well and the substance)? these aren’t independent concepts, a water well works differently than a gas well. The substance (and its intended use, and the intended quantity) define/s the requirements for the well. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] man_made=gas_well Was man_made=petroleum_well vs man_made=pumping_rig
Hi all, Le mer. 26 févr. 2020 à 20:55, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : > > thank you for bringing this up. I just noticed you have added a > deprecation note on > > man_made=gas_well > > and suggest to use man_made=petroleum_well for gas wells. > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dgas_well > > are we sure the term petroleum well covers gas wells? (there is usually > also some gas to deal with when extracting ”stone oil”, but a petroleum > well which extracts only gas can still be called an “oil well”?) > Petroleum wells usually give gas as well (as gas is located upside petroleum underground) Nevertheess, should we take advantage of this discussion to use man_made=well + substance=* only as to prevent usage of values mixing two independant concepts (the well and the substance)? Cheers François ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] man_made=gas_well Was man_made=petroleum_well vs man_made=pumping_rig
sent from a phone > On 26. Feb 2020, at 09:56, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > > man_made=petroleum_well thank you for bringing this up. I just noticed you have added a deprecation note on man_made=gas_well and suggest to use man_made=petroleum_well for gas wells. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dgas_well are we sure the term petroleum well covers gas wells? (there is usually also some gas to deal with when extracting ”stone oil”, but a petroleum well which extracts only gas can still be called an “oil well”?) Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
